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znModeratorMIDDLE EAST
Obama Seeks Approval by Congress for Strike in Syria
AUG. 31, 2013
link: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/world/middleeast/syria.html
WASHINGTON — President Obama abruptly changed course on Saturday and postponed a military strike against the Syrian government in retaliation for a chemical weapons attack so he could seek authorization first from a deeply skeptical Congress.
In one of the riskiest gambles of his presidency, Mr. Obama effectively dared lawmakers to either stand by him or, as he put it, allow President Bashar al-Assad of Syria to get away with murdering children with unconventional weapons. By asking them to take a stand, Mr. Obama tried to break out of the isolation of the last week as he confronted taking action without the support of the United Nations, Congress, the public or Britain, a usually reliable partner in such international operations.
“I’m prepared to give that order,” Mr. Obama said in a hurriedly organized appearance in the Rose Garden as American destroyers armed with Tomahawk missiles waited in the Mediterranean Sea. “But having made my decision as commander in chief based on what I am convinced is our national security interests, I’m also mindful that I’m the president of the world’s oldest constitutional democracy.”
Although Congressional leaders hailed his decision to seek the permission of lawmakers who had been clamoring for a say, the turnabout leaves Mr. Obama at the political mercy of House Republicans, many of whom have opposed him at every turn and have already suggested that Syria’s civil war does not pose a threat to the United States. His decision raises the possibility that he would be the first president in modern times to lose a vote on the use of force, much as Prime Minister David Cameron of Britain did in Parliament last week.
Mr. Obama overruled the advice of many of his aides who worried about just such a defeat, and Republican Congressional officials said Saturday that if a vote were taken immediately, the Republican-controlled House would not support action. Interviews with more than a dozen members of Congress made clear that the situation was volatile even in the Senate, where Democrats have a majority.
“Obama hasn’t got a chance to win this vote if he can’t win the majority of his own party, and I doubt he can,” Representative Tom Cole of Oklahoma, a leading Republican, said in an interview. “Democrats have been conspicuously silent. Just about his only support is coming from Republicans. He is a war president without a war party.”Yet the debate may also put on display the divisions in the Republican Party between traditional national security hawks and a newer generation of lawmakers, particularly in the House, resistant to entanglements overseas and distrustful of Mr. Obama.
“It will be an uphill battle for the president to convince me because I think he has handled this entire situation quite poorly,” said Representative Tim Griffin, Republican of Arkansas. “And frankly I am reluctant to give him a license for war when, with all due respect, I have little confidence he knows what he is doing.”
Even Senators John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, two Republicans who have pressed Mr. Obama to intervene more aggressively in Syria, said Saturday that they might vote no because the president’s plan was too limited. “We cannot in good conscience support isolated military strikes in Syria that are not part of an overall strategy that can change the momentum on the battlefield,” they said in a statement.
Against that backdrop, the wording of the authorization of force may be critical. White House officials drafted a proposed measure that tried to strike a balance between being too expansive and too restrictive, and sent it to Congress on Saturday evening.
The proposal would empower Mr. Obama to order military action to “prevent or deter the use or proliferation” of chemical or biological weapons “within, to or from Syria” and to “protect the United States and its allies and partners against the threat posed by such weapons.” Still, White House officials indicated that Mr. Obama might still authorize force even if Congress rejected it.
As Syrian forces braced for attack, the president’s decision effectively put it off for more than a week, since Congress is not due back in Washington until Sept. 9. Mr. Obama did not push for Congress to come back sooner, and House leaders opted to keep to their schedule. Senate leaders set committee hearings to begin on Tuesday with a floor vote “no later” than the week of Sept. 9.In the interim, lawmakers will be in their home states, where polls show their constituents are not eager to attack Syria. “One constituent said to me: ‘It is horrendous that these children were killed, but they are being killed in other ways also. What’s the difference?’ ” said Senator Susan Collins, Republican of Maine.
Senator Bob Casey, Democrat of Pennsylvania, said public opinion would pose a challenge for the president and Congress. “I’d be very surprised if the position of going forward with the strike would reach 50 percent in our state,” he said. “I don’t think it would get to 50.”
The move also means that the period of vacillation before a strike will extend until after Mr. Obama travels to St. Petersburg, Russia, for a summit meeting of the Group of 20 nations, a session that now seems certain to be dominated by the question of what to do about Syria. President Vladimir V. Putin, the host of the meeting, not only has effectively blocked United Nations action, but on Saturday he suggested the chemical attack was a provocation by rebels intended to draw the United States into their war against Mr. Assad.
Presidents in modern times have used military force both with and without Congressional authorization. George Bush and George W. Bush both won votes from lawmakers before wars with Iraq, and Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton launched strikes against Libya, Afghanistan and Kosovo without asking permission.
Although Mr. Obama said as a candidate that a president has no power to launch a military attack except to stop “an actual or imminent threat to the nation,” he acted unilaterally in Libya in 2011 and had no plans to act differently in Syria this time. But he found it much harder to proceed alone, given the British vote and polls showing that the vast majority of Americans want Congress to decide.
United Nations inspectors returned to The Hague on Saturday with samples to test for chemicals from sites in Syria. Credit Marten Van Dijl/European Pressphoto Agency
Even allies like Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, one of Mr. Obama’s earliest supporters for president and his handpicked Democratic Party chairman, publicly argued that he had to go to Congress for permission. “The worst thing we can do is put people out on that limb and ask them to potentially risk their lives based on equivocal political support,” Mr. Kaine said.In making his request, Mr. Obama argued more forcefully than he ever had for military action against Syria, echoing some of the moral outrage expressed by Secretary of State John Kerry a day earlier. “What message will we send if a dictator can gas hundreds of children to death in plain sight and pay no price?” the president asked.
Mr. Obama also dispatched Mr. Kerry, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel and others to brief senators by telephone on Saturday and authorized a classified briefing on Capitol Hill on Sunday. Mr. Kerry was also booked on Sunday television news programs to make the case.
Aaron David Miller, a longtime Middle East adviser to presidents, said Mr. Obama had made a persuasive case for action even as he jeopardized it. It “shows just how concerned he is about being alone and his understanding of the realities that even a limited strike can be risky, and he wants to share the responsibility,” he said.
A deeply divided Congress was already gearing up for bitter fights this fall over federal spending, the debt ceiling, immigration and government surveillance, and the surprise Syria vote will invite a complicated, multilayered debate crossing party lines and involving other actors like Israel supporters who worry that failure to follow through in Syria will embolden Iran.
Many lawmakers welcomed the chance to vote. “At this point in the country’s history, it’s important that we have this debate, that we take this vote,” said Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee, the senior Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee.
But some argued that Mr. Obama had blinked in the face of a tough choice and possible backlash, and abdicated responsibility. “I strongly believe that the commander in chief has the absolute right to take military action,” said Representative Peter T. King, Republican of New York. “The president seems like he’s weak at every level.”
April 11, 2017 at 9:03 am in reply to: McVay’s intensity gets Rams’ attention as offseason work begins #67274
znModeratorAnd more than one guy said that.
McVay sets a new foundation with Rams this week
GREG BEACHAM
he appeared to be noticeably bulked up.
..
Jared Goff many not be as physical imposing as some of his teammates, but you can definitely see the QB filling out in his second year.
— Joe Curley (@vcsjoecurley) April 10, 2017
April 10, 2017 at 11:31 pm in reply to: McVay’s intensity gets Rams’ attention as offseason work begins #67271
znModeratorRams players pick up on the new vibe of coach Sean McVay
By Gary Klein
http://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/la-sp-rams-20170410-story.html
Quarterback Jared Goff described it as “freshness.”
Linebacker Alec Ogletree spoke of “a whole different culture,” while running back Todd Gurley honed in on new coach Sean McVay’s energy and “swagger.”
Those were initial player impressions Monday after the Rams met as a team for the first time since McVay, 31, became the youngest coach in modern NFL history.
As the Rams began their offseason program, McVay, Goff and others at the team’s Cal Lutheran facility sported blue T-shirts emblazoned with a blue and white-horned Rams logo on the front and “WE not ME” written on the back.
The start of the program, which runs through mid-June, was “a long time coming,” McVay said.
“There was full attention, guys were locked in, they were engaged, they were ready to go,” he said of the team meeting, adding, “It was definitely, exactly the way that we wanted to come off as a coaching staff.”
It will take more than slogans, T-shirts and attentiveness in meetings to turn around a franchise that has not made the playoffs since 2004.
But after last season’s dismal 4-12 finish, the Rams are embracing the start of the post-Jeff Fisher era.
McVay might be young, Ogletree said, but the coach who served as the Washington Redskins’ offensive coordinator the last three seasons looked and sounded experienced.
“He definitely seems like a guy that’s been around awhile,” said Ogletree, 25. “You can gravitate toward a guy like that because he’s young, energetic, and you can definitely tell he has a lot of wisdom about him.”
McVay and his staff face a major challenge, especially on offense.
The Rams have ranked last in the NFL in each of the last two seasons. On the positive side, there is nowhere to go but up.
How much the Rams improve will depend in large part on the development of Goff, the No. 1 pick in the 2016 draft.
McVay has said that he, offensive coordinator Matt LaFleur and quarterbacks coach Greg Olson have worked to make sure they will provide Goff with a consistent message.
Goff, 22, said he was ready to get started. The Rams, he intimated, are not far from turning around their fortunes.
“I think we’re a lot closer to where we want to be than people may think,” he said.
Goff, winless last season in seven starts, worked this offseason in Newport Beach with quarterback trainers Tom House and Justin Dedeaux. The duo has tutored Tom Brady, Matt Ryan and other NFL passers.
Goff did not identify any particular mechanical adjustments that were made but said he was enlightened.
“Now you know when you do make a bad throw … you know why,” he said. “It’s not just, ‘Oh, that was a bad one,’ and move on. You know why and how to fix it.”
Goff will attempt to assert himself on a team that has gone through numerous personnel changes.
Nine players who played prominent roles last season — quarterback Case Keenum, receivers Kenny Britt and Brian Quick, running back Benny Cunningham, tight end Lance Kendricks, center Tim Barnes, defensive ends William Hayes and Eugene Sims and safety T.J. McDonald — were either traded, released or allowed to pursue free-agent opportunities.
The Rams added eight players who are expected to contribute immediately: receiver Robert Woods, offensive tackle Andrew Whitworth, center John Sullivan, running back Lance Dunbar, defensive lineman Tyrunn Walker, linebacker Connor Barwin and cornerbacks Kayvon Webster and Nickell Robey-Coleman.
With a year of experience, Goff said he was now comfortable in everything from knowing teammates to knowing his way around the facility.
“Comfortability,” he said, “you can’t overstate it. It’s really important, as for the quarterback position, and leadership overall.”
Notes
The Rams’ exhibition schedule includes home games against the Dallas Cowboys and the Chargers and road games against the Oakland Raiders and Green Bay Packers. The Aug. 26 game against the Chargers at the Coliseum will kick off at 5 p.m. and be televised nationally by CBS. Dates for the other games are to be determined. The Rams are playing the Cowboys in a preseason opener for the second year in a row. They also will play the Cowboys at AT&T Stadium during the regular season. In Week 2 of the preseason, the Rams will visit the Raiders, who last month received permission from the NFL to move to Las Vegas in a few seasons. The Chargers, who are playing home games at the StubHub Center until they will move into Stan Kroenke’s new Inglewood stadium in 2019, will visit the Coliseum in Week 3. Last year, the Rams traveled to Minnesota’s new stadium for their final preseason game. This year, they travel to Green Bay’s legendary Lambeau Field. … Defensive lineman Ethan Westbrooks signed a restricted free-agent tender. The Rams waived receiver Stedman Bailey and retained exclusive rights to defensive linemen Matt Longacre and Louis Trinca-Pasat.
znModeratorWell, not much of a surprise now, is it?
Oh those who already know about the movie know all about that. It’s not a hidden thing. For those who don’t know about it YET, the surprise comes ONLY in watching the trailer. That is, people who already know about this film already know who’s in it. Those who don’t yet would know eventually because the advertising for the film is going to stress it. So it’s just a one-time surprise in the trailer for those who don’t yet know. Everyone will know by the time the movie opens…that is, the movie itself is not built around that being a surprise.
I might have put it this way. For those who don’t know who is in the movie yet, this trailer will have a surprise. But even as I say that, all those who know about the movie know exactly what I am referring to. Eventually everyone will know about that, long before the movie opens.
April 10, 2017 at 10:03 pm in reply to: McVay’s intensity gets Rams’ attention as offseason work begins #67268
znModeratorMcVay sets a new foundation with Rams this week
GREG BEACHAM
THOUSAND OAKS, Calif. (AP) — Sean McVay had been waiting three months to get all of his players in the same room for the first time since he took over the Los Angeles Rams.
As you might expect, the youngest head coach in modern NFL history doesn’t like to wait.
When McVay finally got to say his first words to his new team Monday as the Rams opened their offseason training program, he got right to work building a winner on the wreckage of the Rams’ homecoming season.
“Really right now, it’s about building relationships with these guys,” said McVay, the former Washington offensive coordinator. “It’s very early in the process. We’ve got some time right now, so we want to make sure we do a great job establishing a foundation, so that it can be conducive for that long-term success. But I think today went as well as we could have hoped.”
McVay’s early impact on the Rams includes new T-shirts with the slogan “We, Not Me” on the backs. Almost every employee in the Rams’ training complex appeared to be wearing them, but McVay cleverly said the shirts weren’t his idea: “It was OUR idea.”
When he finally stepped in front of his players, McVay had deeper thoughts than a three-word catchphrase. Linebacker Alec Ogletree described McVay’s opening address as an attempt to create “a whole different culture, just making sure we’re accountable and dependable.”
The Rams’ key players have already met McVay, but they got their first real taste of his oratorical and motivational skills at their team meeting. The 31-year-old coaching prodigy appears to be making a good early impression on the Rams, who are very open to change after last season’s collapse from a 3-1 start to a 4-12 finish.
“He is a young guy,” said Todd Gurley, the Rams’ 22-year-old running back. “But he’s got that energy about him, that swagger about him that you like in a coach, and it’s definitely great to see that.”
Gurley is among the numerous projects facing McVay as his coaching staff crafts a game plan to fix the NFL’s worst offense for the past two seasons.
Gurley rushed for 885 yards last season, but averaged a measly 3.2 yards per carry. It was a sharp decline from his rookie year, when he put up 1,106 yards and 4.8 per carry.
McVay’s Redskins split the carries among three running backs last season, but all three averaged 1 yard or more per carry than Gurley.
McVay also has work to do with quarterback Jared Goff, who went winless as a starter in his rookie season, throwing five touchdown passes and seven interceptions.
Goff has already been in private coaching during the offseason with quarterback gurus Tom House and Adam Dedeaux, and he appeared to be noticeably bulked up. After participating in Kirk Cousins’ growth into a top-shelf NFL starter, McVay is eager to get a chance to coach Goff — and the former No. 1 overall pick seems extremely eager to learn.
“I think there’s some really good, new energy here,” Goff said. “Coach McVay and the rest of his staff have done a great job exuding that energy and really letting us feel it. I think it’s really a fresh start for a lot of people. I think it’s a really good feeling. Just freshness is the best way to describe it.”
znModeratorOklahoma’s Sam Bradford, Eastern Illinois’ Jimmy Garoppolo, and Baylor’s Robert Griffin III definitely played in similar offenses (OU in particular has evolved constantly since employing Leach in 1999
Jared Goff*, Cal 1 7 64
Brandon Weeden*, Oklahoma State 22 25 76
Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M 22 15 74
Kevin Kolb, Houston 36 21 79
Geno Smith*, West Virginia 39 30 72
John Beck, BYU 40 7 68
Nick Foles*, Arizona 88 26 88
Josh Heupel, Oklahoma 177 0 N/A
Kliff Kingsbury, Texas Tech 201 0 79
B.J. Symons, Texas Tech 248 0 N/A
Case Keenum*, Houston UFA 24 78So this story involves 4 different Rams qbs.
.
znModeratorFootball Outsiders has their early 2017 NFL predictions at ESPN (insider subscription required) with some very, very, very favorable fodder for Los Angeles Rams fans.
Los Angeles Rams: 8-8 (8.1 mean wins; SOS: 20)The Rams have been trying to compete with a defense and special-teams orientation for years now, but hiring Wade Phillips could finally make that recipe work. Every team that has ever hired Phillips as a head coach or defensive coordinator saw its defensive DVOA improve, including the Broncos, who went from fourth in the league in 2014 to one of the greatest defenses ever in 2015. Phillips’ scheme will likely have a similar effect in Los Angeles, where the defense was already loaded with talent in the front seven. If the offense can be garden-variety bad instead of last year’s near-historic impotence, it’s enough to make the Rams playoff contenders.
znModeratorI’m in San Diego at a hotel again and staying at the same hotel are several Chargers coaches….one of which has spent several seasons working for Kromer…at Buffalo and Chicago….and now has a similar position with the Chargers.
He has the utmost respect for Kromer and in his opinion he is one of the best O-line coaches in the NFL. He also went on to say he is a “technician”…not sure what he meant by that.
Just thought I would share…I know it’s not much, but it’s good to hear some good things about our new O-line coach.
That’s great stuff SB. I look forward to more.
.
znModeratorAaron Donald talks Day One Offseason Program https://t.co/3QQhqkAKsk
— Los Angeles Rams (@RamsNFL) April 10, 2017
Todd Gurley talks Day One Offseason Program https://t.co/K7lozQJo9e
— Los Angeles Rams (@RamsNFL) April 10, 2017
znModeratorSean McVay talks Day One Offseason Program https://t.co/wWHxKXnqhs
— Los Angeles Rams (@RamsNFL) April 10, 2017
znModeratorRams RB Todd Gurley on McVay: "he's got that energy about him, that swagger about him."
— Gary Klein (@LATimesklein) April 10, 2017
#Rams begin offseason program. https://t.co/3lx91C9o2g
— Gary Klein (@LATimesklein) April 10, 2017
znModeratorI wrote a longer post in reply yesterday, and when I hit submit, it vanished and told me I had to log in – which I had been,
I’m sorry that happened. It’s an anti-spam thing. Now and then the system just asks you to log in again. It has happened to me numerous times, usually without any harm. In your case it was just an accident of fate that it did that after you typed a long post. In the future, if anyone has a long long post they worked on they do not want to lose, copy it before hitting post…we never know when the system might just decide it’s your turn to log in again.
So anyway again, my apologies.
If it’s any consolation I docked myself a huge percentage of my paycheck, which is instead being diverted into charities having to do with free meals for pandas, or something.
znModeratorWhats the biggest reason to think its BS?
Besides the fact it’s just a guy blathering?
A story like that gets legs and is actually reported (independently of one another) by someone–in the UK, France, al jezeera, Canada, Australia…
znModeratorThe Syrian Air Force hit the target with conventional weapons. All involved expected to see a massive secondary explosion. That did not happen. Instead, smoke, chemical smoke, began billowing from the site. It turns out that the Islamic rebels used that site to store chemicals, not sarin, that were deadly. The chemicals included organic phosphates and chlorine and they followed the wind and killed civilians.
There is good reason to believe that story is bs.
.
April 10, 2017 at 11:29 am in reply to: Video breakdown of Wade Phillips' defense & more discussion of the transition #67229
znModeratorjrry32, wrote:
Phillips has made a career out of transitioning 4-3 defenses to the 3-4. Yet, he has been successful in pretty much every destination during his career. I’m not concerned. The system isn’t that different from GW’s. It might actually be better because it’s simpler and relies more on the “see ball get ball” principle. It’s far less complicated and far more about attacking.
The reality is that our three down lineman are all interior DLs.
Basically, Wade’s defense often aligns the strong-side DE as the 5-tech and the weak-side DE as the 3-tech. That means both the LDE and RDE (Donald) will see time as 5-techs and 3-techs. Wade also will sometimes pinch the strong-side DE inside. The NT usually aligns as a 0-tech shaded towards the strong-side but sometimes aligns as a 1-technique towards the strong-side depending on the strength of the formation.
It remains to be seen where Brockers will play. My expectation is that Wade will play Brockers wherever he needs to play him to get the best three players on the field. Wade has played guys like him at both LDE and NT. He could play either one in this scheme. Brockers is not a natural 3-4 NT. His height makes him a poor fit for the traditional 3-4 NT role. He can work in Wade’s defense because it’s not a read and react scheme that asks him to two-gap. In most 3-4 defenses, Brockers would be a DE. In this defense, if we have a guy who best fits at NT, Brockers will play DE. If we have a guy who best fits at DE, Brockers will play NT.
I also have strong doubts that we plan to go into the year with Easley as the starting LDE.
Barron was a better run defender in 2016 imo. He got more splash plays in 2015 because we were typically sending him on run blitzes. Barron is new to LB, so there were hiccups, but he wasn’t a bad run defender. We mainly got gashed in games where our defensive line was hurting due to injuries. There wasn’t much anybody could do about that. In 2017 the extra size on the field should reduce traffic for Barron since we’ll essentially have 5 DLs.
znModeratorMeeting with the Rams players today! Off-season officially starts-classroom only with the coaches(Phase 1 ).
— Wade Phillips (@sonofbum) April 10, 2017
znModeratorRams undergoing big scouting changes . Informed at least 4 evaluators, including head of college scouting Ran Carthon they won't be back …
— Jason La Canfora (@JasonLaCanfora) April 9, 2017
Rams informed outgoing scouts of the changes now, before draft, may give them small jump on other openings which generally happen post-draft
— Jason La Canfora (@JasonLaCanfora) April 9, 2017
znModeratorHere’s a name that keeps coming up in relation to the Rams.
***
C Chase Roullier, Wyoming
6’4″, 312LBS.STRENGTHS Thick lower body with big calves and thighs. Body is built to anchor. Well-schooled and technically sound. Dips and strikes opponent with upward blow from his hips at point of attack. Bends better than expected and unlocks his leverage potential. Gritty worker who uses body control and hand strength to sustain blocks. Generates momentum into down blocks and fork-lifts defensive tackles off their spots. Good power as drive blocker, but functional in space as well. Has starting experience at both guard and center. Plays to and after whistle. Physical and tough.
WEAKNESSES Short arms will force him to work overtime for his NFL blocks. Wasn’t challenged enough by NFL-caliber power in conference. Below average snap-to-step initial movement. May lack foot quickness to handle penetrating 1-techniques as center. Can improve balance in pass protection. Has to play with better awareness and instincts against twists. Gets caught up on first twister and can be slow to pick up the looper into his gap.
SOURCES TELL US “I took a quick peek at him and he’s interesting because he finds ways to stay on top of his blocks. That’s hard for short arm guys to do but he does a pretty good job of it. I guess we’ll find out more about him at the Shrine (Game) practices.” – NFC offensive line coach
BOTTOM LINE Lack of length will hurt his cause for some teams, but his ability to handle both guard and center duties should add to his overall draft standing. Roullier is a power-based run-blocker who plays with good leg drive and leverage to open running lanes. He could struggle to handle athletic interior linemen, but should still appeal to teams looking for a scheme flexible, power player in the later rounds.
-Lance Zierlein
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/chase-roullier?id=2558037
znModerator“So Trump’s first forceful action as President was supposedly to defend the same people that mow down white children with trucks,” the Right Stuff founder Mike Enoch wrote disgustedly…..”
Where do you even begin with a sentence like that.
znModerator@CharlesRobinson
This has been coming for a while. Some #Rams guys in personnel have had their bags packed since last May. Odd timing, but it was coming.
Usually you don’t want guys with your full draft prep or access to your internal system walking out the door until after the draft.
znModeratorWhat are your thoughts if Havenstein playing RG, and GRob to RT? Do you like it? Who would your pick with the 2nd round pick? Tell us the truth.
With the 2nd round pick, I would take Merlin Olson.
I think the Hav at G, Gr at RT combo has potential to be interesting.
znModeratorThat’s good stuff.
Though, reading it IS looking deep into the dark side.
znModeratorThe science sez, the air is getting worse, the water is getting worse, the fracking is getting worse, the climate is getting worse, etc.
All that is getting worse.
And some things that were bad a while back are much diminished as problems.
It’s always a trade-off. As a country we were no better off in 1950, 1960, 1970, and so on. The issues and problems were just different. Now…there are new ones. ‘
It’s like in Angel, the tv series.
We never put them completely away. They can never make us go away. .
znModeratorThe hopelessness and hideous trajectory of things iz making a lot of leftists
even more difficult than usualWe may differ on that.
I don’t things are any worse than usual.
I just think some have talked themselves into that view.
This is from an honest place in me, and I am not trying to one-up or be holier or any of that. It’s just something I sense. I maybe don’t know how to put it well.
…
znModeratorwell i dont disagree with any of that.
There are things that are annoying about this round of left resistance.
You feel it, I feel it, just about different things.
When we were trying to reason our way through the iraq war, there was more spontaneous unity. I mean everywhere.
So I guess I is just this old nostalgic S.O.B.
…
znModeratorObviously none of this is good.
Establishment dems are just so constipated.
.
znModeratorWhy criticize the march? Well, in the video the woman critiquing the march is Medea Benjamin a co-founder of Code Pink. She was asked by the interviewer “why has it been so hard to build an anti-war movement…at the womens march in Washington our wars abroad werent even mentioned…?”
And Medea sez “…no, they didnt even mention it in the platform, and we called them, we tried, and we couldnt even get that in the platform of the women’s march. Its just extraordinary….they said it was controversial.”
The vid is about FIXING fissures in the left-movements.
w
vWell be prepared for a very different view. What you quote there? I don’t are about it. A united front does not mean universal doctrinarire conformity. It means lots of things happen in conjunction, representing different views and interests. To me the only viable stance is to support all of them. Even when it appears, in the short term, that they clash. In the course of the process being a process, different parts of it evolve, change, interact, intersect. But only if there’s a process.
We had this conversation before. I know uncountable bunches of people who went to Washington and none of them, to a person, meets the cliched description of this limit-think in-group.
This is my view. If people can’t persuade beyond their own base, let them keep trying. Sooner or later intersections happen…unless certain types withdraw into the stance of being purists. Then THEY become the problem, IMO. And I personally end up just ignoring them.
On the other hand it’s true that criticism is part of the process too. But only if we begin with the assumption that not one single faction or group is beyond criticism, and that includes Ms. Medea, and also if we accept that criticism should be optimistic and constructive, not this conformity test.
BTW my sense of things is that there is more anti-USA foreign police action sentiment today than there was in the 80s during Nicaragua and El Salvador. In fact right now, predictably, Trump is upping the ante with troops on the ground, including troops deployed in Yemen and Iraq and Syria. That is leaving aside the ineffectual cruise missle attack from the other day.
znModeratori remember reading about titan and it’s methane lakes. i didn’t know they had found chemical imbalances though.
It goes like this. The probe they sent detected levels of hydrogen. In the upper atmosphere, hydrogen was abundant. Then in the middle atmosphere, same. Down on the surface though it was depleted. Some are saying that so far, there is no good explanation for hydrogen being depleted on the surface when the atmosphere is otherwise rich in hydrogen, except maybe possibly organic processes taking place to deplete the hydrogen. (Which in turn is still dependent on the theory that life capable of existing in liquid methane lakes would consume hydrogen). Lots of “ifs.”
So obviously that little clue ain’t the same as pointing to an actual organism and saying “there, see?”
znModeratorAstronomers’ current strategy for finding life on another planet is to detect the chemical composition of that planet’s atmosphere, on the look-out for chemical imbalances which could be caused by living organisms.
There is one theory (and it;’s pure theory) that they have already detected such traces of chemical imbalance on Saturn’s moon Titan.
If Titan has living organisms they would be very different from earth-based ones, since they would have to live in methane lakes and consume hydrogen. That’s one theory anyway.
znModeratorSome things, though, I don’t agree with him. There;s this kind of smug more pure than pure thing among some leftists that causes them to veer off into conspiracy theories. It used to be all you had to deal with was right-wing conspiracy theories. Now there are left-wing conspiracy theories aimed at the left. It’s not the same as it was 10-15 years ago.
———————
Yeah, i know you dont like the conspiracy stuff. I dont mind it, because ive gotten to the point where I’ve been drenched by so many lies and so much propaganda, in this system, that i have trouble telling what’s real and whats not anymore. I’m often in a position of being skeptical of the conspiracy…and skeptical of the ‘official’ story, both…..
w
vIt’s never that either/or, though. “Official” v. conspiracy. You can see through a lot of that stuff. Otherwise we’re just admitting that programmed efforts to distort things always win.
For example, why on earth would I even want to be critical of the women’s march on Washington. What is accomplished by that, except some kind of prissy divisiveness? Just do your thing right alongside the other things and then see where it all ends up.
I see it like this. There is no “pure program.” We’re not like Lenin’s communist party. There are many things at once, from different angles and places, and their cumulative effect is what matters. Unless people WANT a doctrinally pure, organized Lenisist party. Which to me would be a disaster.
I have no trouble spotting conspiracy theories, btw. There’s usually an “edge” to them that just feels wrong.
Like, it’s not enough that Hillary was an establishment dem who was never good on economic issues. I am now supposed to debate whether she had a lower level party aid assassinated? (??!!) 10 or 15 years ago, that kind of stuff did not happen. Conspiracy inventing was right against left, not left against left.
To me, and speaking just for myself and how I tend to see it, surrendering when it comes to seeing through obvious conspiracy bs is the same as just giving up in general, IMO. It accomplishes nothing. It’s defeatism. If we’re going to be defeatist, then, why bother. If you’re defeatist why not just join the establishment and reap the benefits they offer. Why go through all the stress of opposing them.
Okay done soapboxing.

For now.
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