Forum Replies Created
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Gangster means engaging in and supporting openly criminal activity. Obama never did that. Putin relies on it.
A president engaging in a war that may or may not be questionable is not that. It’s a different thing. Obama was never going to have any of us murdered for speaking out against him, either.
In terms of engaging in bloody wars, Putin did THAT too. Far more than Obama. Or Clinton. The body count is higher AND he got territorial gains out of it.
There is no comparison. Acting like there is, to me, just means erasing a lot of important distinctions for no real gain.
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Ok, well i prettymuch disagree with much that. We just see it differently.
You say Obama would not ‘engage in openly criminal activity’. To me that is a meaningless statement because the laws themselves can be ‘criminal’. If the laws allow a President to drop 26,000 bombs on people — how can we even pretend say that is ‘lawful’ ? Did we all vote on those bombs? Did we all have a say on who to drop them on? There was nothing democratic or ‘lawful’ about any of it. Imho.
So i see Obama/Trump/Clinton/Bush’s conduct as ‘criminal’. You see it as ‘lawful’. (edit- I and i ‘suspect’ this is getting at the ‘crux’ of our disagreements of late. I’ve been trying to figure out the what/why of our disagreements. I think maybe it has something to do with this difference in how we view ‘law’. I dunno, though.)I dont think there’s anything ‘lawful’ about the foreign policy of the United States. Apparently you disagree.
I dont know how you can NOT see that the US gets all kinds of ‘territorial gains’ by supporting murder and atrocities and torture all over the globe. Giving Saudi Arabia BILLIONS of dollars so that gains can be made in the middle-east. The US gets its ‘territorial gains’ in many ways. Sometimes its by supporting gangster-states, etc. To me thats just a different ‘form’ of gangsterism. But its still gangsterism. Its just a little more sophisticated than the Russian way.
Now, as i noted a US Gangster is different than a Russian Gangster. A US-gangster is not going to have you or me murdered for speaking out, as you said. True. Putin probably would. Agreed.
But then Putin hasnt dropped 26,000 bombs on innocent people, either. So they are both Gangsters in my eyes. But different kinds.
Btw, i think Putin understands this very well. From listening to him, i get the impression he looks at all nations as Gangster-states. Especially the US.
I have been wondering about how we go about forming our assessments of Politicians. Putin is a ‘gangster’ but what is Obama? Which one killed more innocents? How do we determine who is an ‘innocent’ ?
I dont have any simple answers. But I think about these things when i see a headline like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy
“America dropped 26,171 bombs in 2016. What a bloody end to Obama’s reign..”I cant look at that without thinking Obama was the biggest ‘gangster’ in the world when he was in office. I’m not sure about that, but i wonder about it. I toy with the idea. But in the american media its always “Putin is a gangster, Putin is a gangster….Putin killed rival politicians…”
Well Obama dropped 26,000 bombs on people. What does that make ‘him’ ? Why isnt he a ‘gangster’ ?
Granted the american corporotacracy is different than the russian oligarchy. And Obama didnt kill some political rivals to keep his job. Granted. So maybe they are different ‘kinds’ of gangsters. But i wonder if the biggest gangster in the world is always the US corporotacracy-President.
Just something i wonder.
I’m not saying Putin isnt a gangster. I’m saying the US-presidents are bigger, more deadly gangsters. Perhaps.
I have not finished thinking about this. I am in the ‘process’ of thinking about all this stuff. I’m still learning, still open to changing my mind, etc, etc. I haven’t formed any hard-and-fast conclusions, but at this second, it looks to me like Obama/Clinton/Trump/CIA are the biggest ‘gangsters’ of them all. Though they are totally different ‘kinds’ of gangsters than dictators like the North Korean guy, etc.
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vThere are many many books about Russia and Putin and I’ve hardly read them all but three I do recommend are:
“Red Notice” by Bill Browder.
This really explains a lot about the oligarchs and how they are the real power structure in Russia today.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Notice-Finance-Murder-Justice/dp/1476755744
“The Less You Know the Better You Sleep” by David Satter.
This goes into the Yeltsin/Putin connections and explains some of the crimes including the FSB bombings in 1999.
“Putinism: Russia and its future with the west”
This is a long and very detailed view of Russian philosophy and influence, including a great deal about the Eurasian desire that apparently exists in Russia today as it seeks some sort of historical justification for being a world power. It explores so much including the influence of the church and of Russian thinkers like Dugin. It isn’t specifically about Putin as some other books are but it seeks to find a sort of philosophy of Russia.
I thought all of these were good books. Garry Kasparov is a guy I read from time to time and he is certainly no fan of Putin. You Tube has had many different videos over the years about Russia and Putin and its people. I can’t recall them all. I’ve watched a few documentaries–some about just Russian life in general.
“City 40” is interesting but some Russians say that things have changed there. I don’t know.
You can find all sorts of things with information today–some will support your argument–some will oppose it. But in the end you have to decide for yourself what you think about Putin–especially in comparison to Western leaders.
My opinion is that while he is clever, and certainly pushing a philosophy and agenda, and that he may even have some points on some things–I don’t dispute that–at the end of the day I still view him as the “gangster first”. America could well become Russia. But it isn’t there just yet.
As for who killed more innocents? Certainly that isn’t a contest and I honestly am not out to excuse America for anything. Feeling a certain way about Putin does not dismiss America’s own sins.
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Well Browder is a former investment banker at Salomon Brothers. Part of Citigroup. A Wall Street guy.
That doesn’t mean he didn’t write a good book but I am not sure i would take a Wall Street Guy’s word on ‘anything.’ Ya know.
Satter? Wrote for the Financial Times and Wall Street Journal. Also a member of the rightwing Hoover institute. I could go on.
Again, I’m not saying these kinds of writers are straight out of the CIA, and I’m not saying they are completely wrong — but i am saying I dont think they have the whole story. And i am wary of their versions of the Putin story.
What sources would i trust? Good question. I dunno. I am at the point where it is very difficult for me to find sources i trust. Thats just how it is now for me.
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