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wvParticipantThe incorruptibles
wvParticipant“we in america became anti-intellectual about socialism…”
wvParticipant“I’m a communist, you Idiot!”
July 13, 2018 at 8:57 pm in reply to: One of the most comprehensive looks at Trump collusion, evah. #88094wvParticipantI dunno whether Marx really understood the power of modern-propoganda in a corporate-state. Ya know. I doubt he knew voters would have their brains ‘this’ colonized with anti-truths. They’ve done been infected.
Well I would argue that he did, just in a different context with different concepts in people’s heads. That’s why he invented the concept of ideology (or the first iteration of it). (Actually he adapted the word but he invented the concept.)
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You may be right, but I cant see why he would predict a workers revolution if he’d known what they would be up against.
w
vJuly 13, 2018 at 4:24 pm in reply to: One of the most comprehensive looks at Trump collusion, evah. #88092wvParticipantWell said. All of it. But especially the last sentence.
And that makes me think about this, too: Marx and other leftists took it for granted that the “proletariat” would remain with them, and for generations into the future. That turned out to be a bad assumption. They may in fact be providing winning margins for far-right parties all over the globe these days, and the union vote in America is now up for grabs. It may just be leaning Republican these days, though I haven’t done the research on that.
I think one of the really smart things Ocasio-Cortez did was to stick to concrete policies, and not try to fight in terms of theories. Which ties me into this, too: I’m almost finished with a book of essays by Dwight MacDonald, an old leftist — with most of the essays being from the 1950s and 60s. He talks about Germany’s history of obsession with Theory, and our history of obsession with Facts, mostly from the angle of weaknesses in both obsessions. He was quite the curmudgeon, but well worth reading. Anyway, I think his point is similar to yours. It doesn’t work in America to trade theoretical arguments. People here want to deal with what they consider to be “facts,” which opens up still another can of worms, of course:
Competing visions of what they are, etc.
I think I’m writing myself into a depression, so will exit stage left for a bit.
;>)
Hope all is well with you and yours.
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I dunno whether Marx really understood the power of modern-propoganda in a corporate-state. Ya know. I doubt he knew voters would have their brains ‘this’ colonized with anti-truths. They’ve done been infected.
Invasion of the brain-snatchers. Or somethin.
Ocasio had a perfect storm of stuff go her way, btw, i think. Most progressives will have a harder road. Still, it looks like there will be more progressives win in the next few years than at any time in the last 20 years. Nice to see. At least there will be a few voices in the wilderness now. We can thank Bernie Sanders for a lot of that, i think.
wvParticipantSo, WV, what is to be done? I keep wavering about this. Give up on politics entirely, and in the limited time left me, listen to good music, spend time with friends and family, eat well, travel when I can . . . Or stay in the game to the extent possible. I do know the first option is the “healthy” one, and the second one is its opposite.
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Yeah. “What is to be done?”
We bin livin out that damn question since the day we were born.
Or since the big bang.I dunno.
w
vJuly 13, 2018 at 11:47 am in reply to: One of the most comprehensive looks at Trump collusion, evah. #88084wvParticipant<
I throw in analogies, and they fall on deaf ears . . .
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Allz i know iz, this is important. This exchange about ‘socialism’, progressives are having with Lib-Capitalists and Rightwing-crazies.
I see the same exact pattern playing out over and over and over, whether its an MSM talker asking Bernie about socialism or Ocasio-cortez being asked about it on Fox, etc, etc, etc. And its been the same exact dynamic for many years.
The Capitalists/rightwingers are WINNING the tv-debates. (not among leftists but among joe and jane voter)
Leftists need to rethink their answers to the “its never worked” and “its killed a 100 million people”.
We need to study on it. We need better, quicker, sharper answers. To win the average propagandized voter. Keep an eye out to how others answer it. Maybe someone out there has figured out a good tv-answer.
Lefties win the ‘debate’ while righties are winning the ‘voter’ — if that makes any sense. …what do i know 🙂
w
vwvParticipantBut, to me, the hypocrisy levels are off the charts…
Only in America.
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Well we are talking about Replicants here. The hypocrisy levels are virtually always off the charts.
At least Dark Lord Sauron wasn’t a hypocrite. I’ll give him that. I mean he was all “I’m going to destroy the world, fuck you all.” Ya know.
w
vJuly 13, 2018 at 10:38 am in reply to: One of the most comprehensive looks at Trump collusion, evah. #88080wvParticipantWell you know i disagree on some of that, but we’ve hashed it out and no-one’s gonna change their mind at this point.
I hope Russia interferes on the side of Bernie this time.
w
vThat’s bad, WV.
;>)
On Sanders, etc. etc. I’m very hopeful about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She is a star. If the Dems had thousands just like her, I think America would be in a vastly better place.
Which brings me to a side-note and question:
Why do you think this is all too often the case? I’ve been having discussions on other boards, when I’m up to it, about “socialism” recently. When the term “democratic socialism” is mentioned, I try to remind people about some of the great thinkers, humanitarians, peace advocates, civil rights advocates, who carried that banner, but it always seems to just fall flat.
I remind them that the following held that philosophy: MLK, Gandhi, Einstein, Camus, Orwell, Helen Keller, Dorothy Day, Bertrand Russell, Alexander Dubcek and Andrei Sakharov, for starters . . . and it generally elicits crickets.
Any guesses why that doesn’t seem to change any minds regarding the idiocy of viewing that philosophy as scary or dangerous?
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If you want to practice your rhetorical skillz….watch FOX news. Watch how they handle the ‘socialism’ thing. They always, always, always go thru the same exact talking points. Which means — itz easy to prepare for them.
For starters Foxers always start with the same argument — “its never worked anywhere”, and then they move on to “Stalin, Soviet Union….its killed a hundred million people…”
So, if libs and leftists want to talk about socializms, they need to have sound-bitey, quick, sharp answers to that point.
…if yer gonna talk to amerikan-humans about politix, study, Fox-News. The evil-brilliance of Fox is in how they get right to the blunt-point. No hemming and hawing and qualifying and explaining — they hit you right in the face, with quick hard sound bytes. They are masters. Leftists are trying to do Chomsky and the Foxers are doing Mike Tyson. Er somethin. I dunno.
Libs use the same framework as Fox, so studying Fox works for dealing with libs too…
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vwvParticipantI don’t really know why I put myself through it, but I watched a good deal of the hearings too.
Key takeaways for me:
1. The Republicans hounded Strzok for nine hours, repeatedly going back to the same exact aspects of the case, with the barest of deviations in language. I suppose they were trying to get him on a “gotcha” moment of inconsistency, but it was deeply frustrating to watch.
2. I didn’t realize this was fair game, but Republicans often handed off their allotted time to their more aggressive and determined peers, which generally meant the same two or three designated attack dogs. I didn’t see the Dems do this, though I didn’t watch the entire nine hours.
3. I don’t think there is any way around this fact, but it never fazed the Republicans, and the Dems appeared not to bring it up, at least while I was watching:
If the FBI can be accused of taking any actions to influence the election, it was all to the benefit of Trump and against Clinton. If Strzok had wanted to hurt Trump, he would have leaked that Trump was under federal investigation, but he didn’t. Comey did tell the country, twice before election, that Clinton was being investigated, but would not say that Trump was too. And we also know that FBI agents in the New York office leaked info regarding Clinton to Giuliani, which he promptly spilled on Fox News. That office was called “Trumpland” for its “bias.”
This follows a more general pattern for the GOP in their endless hearings about supposed “bias” against “conservatives” and now Trump. Don’t mention, don’t investigate the fact that government departments are filled with a wide array of differing political views, or that the Law Enforcement sphere has always been dominated by the right. Whether it’s the IRS or intel or DOJ, make sure not to look at “bias” in favor of Republicans, or bias against their opponents, etc. Just narrow the frame to work solely in their favor.
Wikileaks, of course, helped tremendously here, concentrating solely on the Dems.
4. It’s amazing to me that Congress chooses to have hearings on private texts between two adults, which included perhaps “mean things” about a president that both Republicans and Dems despised at the time . . . but won’t hold hearings on the Trump administration’s kidnapping of babies at the border, endless corruption within the Trump executive, the destruction of the environment, the selling off of millions of acres of formerly protected wilderness, and our endless wars — for starters.
Our politics have never been much to brag about, but I think they’ve reached new lows. This hearing was an example.
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Well I’m not disagreeing with your big-picture-points, Billy, but the FBI Agent handed them this stuff on a platter. Very unprofessional. You canNOT be texting private-negative things about someone you are investigating. Any lawyer would impeach a cop if he did that to a defendant.
Again, I’m not addressing the big-picture stuff. It just irks me that the agent was that stupid. Cuz…it…was…stupid. I’d have fired him just to send a message. Its a big big mistake. Not a little one.
w
vwvParticipantDid you read the whole article? Because i think its saying what you just said. The snippet is misleading in that regard, i think.
One reason I didn’t read the article initially was this:
This site can’t provide a secure connection
http://www.resilience.org uses an unsupported protocol.Chrome wouldn’t pull it up.
So I went around that and you’re right, the snippet is misleading and the article is not making the mistake I thought I found in the snippet. From the article:
The insight that identities of gender, class, race, sexuality, nationality, etc., are mutually determining gave rise to a new concept: intersectionality. Some feared that acknowledging interconnecting identities and forms of oppression would prove divisive, but what began as splintering gave birth to a new form of politics: solidarity politics. Solidarity politics can unite people across movements and within movements, and offers the foundational framework for any successful global citizens movement. Indeed, this dynamic already is engaging various social movements on the ground and inspiring the development of new, solidarity economy practices and institutions.
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Yeah, and i like the term “solidarity politics.” I think its the perfect term.
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vwvParticipant“during the 16 month period Fox News and CNN mentioned the TPP during TWO broadcasts…”
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vwvParticipant“…when we finally know we are dying, and all other sentient beings are dying with us, we start to have a burning, almost heartbreaking sense of the fragility and preciousness of each moment and each being, and from this can grow a deep, clear, limitless compassion for all beings.” Sogyal Rinpoche
wvParticipantTexts, emails, facebook messages etc — how many times have they come back to bite people in the butt.
No matter how many times it happens — people keep doin it.
w
vJuly 12, 2018 at 3:06 pm in reply to: One of the most comprehensive looks at Trump collusion, evah. #88033wvParticipantWell you know i disagree on some of that, but we’ve hashed it out and no-one’s gonna change their mind at this point.
I hope Russia interferes on the side of Bernie this time.
w
vwvParticipantDid you read the whole article? Because i think its saying what you just said. The snippet is misleading in that regard, i think.
btw, i was reading a book about the Combahee River Collective, and the book said that the CRC was the first group to use the term ‘identity politics’ and they were radical socialist feminists and they included ‘class’ in their ID politix. Just pointing out the obvious that all these terms are a bit fluid etc.
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vwvParticipantGreat stuff.
w
vwvParticipantwvParticipant“…After 12 years of conservative decisions on the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, Kavanaugh has left little doubt as to how his rulings from the high court will fall. Of course he will vote to overturn Roe v. Wade if given the opportunity. Of course he will vote to limit gun control laws, because he already has. Of course he will vote in favor of polluters and against net neutrality. Of course he will be a great ally in the GOP’s ongoing war against the right to vote, having written his former court’s majority opinion upholding South Carolina’s scrofulous voter ID law.
Kavanaugh is far more conservative than Justice Kennedy ever was, and will be as reliably right-wing as Justices Gorsuch and Thomas. Add Justice Alito and Chief Justice Roberts to the dogpile, and you have a historically hot mess that will still be burning when my grandchildren are dodging automatic weapons fire before homeroom, because America.
Senate Democrats can try to string out the nomination fight until after the midterm elections, but that strategy depends entirely on retaking the Senate majority. Barring that, they can try to hold their caucus together and convince GOP Senators Collins and Murkowski to also vote “No,” but that is perilous on a pair of fronts: The two Joes — Manchin and Donnelly — along with Heidi Heitkamp are running for their lives in red states (Heitkamp already voted for Gorsuch), and as the tax cut bill vividly showed us, the senators from Maine and Alaska can also be bought if the price is right.
It will be close, but not really. Brett Kavanaugh will soon be an associate justice of the US Supreme Court…”
Trump Card: Brett Kavanaugh and the “Unitary Executive” Theory
wvParticipantThe more to the far left, progressive, whatever you call it, we go the more we insure we can’t get them back
I think the opposite is true.
That is what I was going to say. Those marginal Trump voters were attracted to Trump because of the economic populism aspect of his campaign rather than the racist, nationalistic, and anti-establishment aspects of his campaign. They aren’t very comfortable with the latter aspects of Trump, and that is what makes them “marginal supporters.”
The progressive wing of the Democrat party has more to offer those marginal supporters than the mainstream Democrats do. Economically, mainstream Democrats are conservative. They are not aggressive supporters of unions, increased wages, and universal healthcare. They are not offering identifiable solutions to the problems ordinary Americans are dealing with. Some of those marginal supporters of Trump may be skeptical of government solutions to social problems, but the pressure of those problems has been building for some time, and I think a lot of people are starting to take a look around. I believe a number of people are taking a second look at universal health care, among other issues, and it is the progressives who are talking about these solutions. I seriously do not believe mainstream Democrats have anything to offer those marginal Trumps supporters except “We aren’t Trump. Russia, Russia, Russia.” What message do they have for those supporters that is going to make them change their vote?
Also, I think there is a bigger key to this election than picking off Trump voters. It’s just increasing voter turnout all the way around. The more women and minorities that can be motivated to vote, the more power we can strip away from the Monster.
Meanwhile, I can’t conceal my anxiety about the next few months. If Trump and the GOP get away with appointing a radical judge, and retain control of Congress, it is Game, Set, and Match.
We would truly then be dependent 100% on Mueller, and that is not an avenue I’ve ever counted on. And I think that if they get a judge appointed, it may not matter what Mueller has anyway.
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Well they are ‘gonna’ get their judge. Thats a given. Maybe more than one, btw, before all is said and done. (thanku Dems for giving us Hillary)
But can they retain Congress. Damn. We’ll see.
So much of the despair is because of the corporate-media. How can progressive options be evaluated when everything is filtered through anti-progressive, corporate-media. Same ole, same ole…
w
vwvParticipantwvParticipantThe thing I will always remember is how he played with the cracked ribs, behind a lousy line. Never complained.
I wonder if things would have been different for the Rams if Martz had just been slighty better in the personnel-evaluation sphere. Especially Olinemen.
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vwvParticipantGuaranteed Contracts seems Important to me. I’d also think they’d want to improve the health-care situation.
I dont see how the owners could refuse them two things, given the incredible money-making machine that the NFL is.
w
vwvParticipantwvParticipantWe likely have separate goals. Mine is to take back a Congress and Presidency that has done more harm and permanent damage to individual rights than any before-and in such a short time. It is my belief that the only way to do that is to get the marginal Trump voters over back to the democratic side. The more to the far left, progressive, whatever you call it, we go the more we insure we can’t get them back. However, if you don’t believe that the present majority in Congress and Trump are all that dangerous then fine-I can’t and won’t try and buy into a debate.
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Well yes, he’s beyond words. And he got there in large part, because of the Democrats. All those ‘centrist-dems’ who voted for NAFTA, etc.
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vwvParticipantI can’t read the article but they already are centrist. They’ve been that way for quite awhile. Their republican-lite centrist policies helped create Trump.
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Well Billy would say the midpoint has been dragged so far to the right over the last thirty years that ‘centrists’ now are essentially ye-olde-republicans.
At any rate I’ve been watchin a lot of Fox-Newz Utubes lately. I wanted to see what the “Right” is up to. Its been quite an experience. I remember watching the original Planet of the Apes, and i remember the director did a good job of making the viewer feel trapped and surrounded by crazy-brutal-ignorant-superstitious powerful Apes. The Madhouse scene was the culmination of the pressure.
And thats prettymuch how I feel watching Fox-News. Just like that. Exactly like that.
The Dem-MSM (NPR, MSNBC, etc) is also a madhouse. Its hard for me to imagine the Dem-Madhouse moving to the left. I dont think Waterfield has anything to worry about.
But we’ll see. My guess is some progressives will get elected but for the most part the same ole sorry ass money-and-power will continue to aim the ship toward the iceburg.
Its a mad-ship-of-fools.
The evil-doers at Fox are better at what they do, btw, than the evil-doers on the Dem-MSM. They pound away at Immigration, Crime, Personal Responsibility, ‘COMMUNISM’, ‘Socialism’, Muslims, Terrorists, Deep-State, Guns, Police, the Flag, Apple Pie, Jesus, Iran, Venezuela, Clintons, Obama…
On MSNBC/NPR/PBS its…Trump…Russia.
We’ll see what happens.
I’ll be doing my part for Trump by voting Green again. 🙂w
vwvParticipantI have a feeling you would tell FDR he needed to move to the “center”.
…did you? 🙂
w
vwvParticipant
DailyRadical History
@radicaldaily
Jun 30Jun 30 1960 – Congo gains independence from Belgium.
Pic: “Father stares at the hand and foot of his five-year-old, severed as a punishment for failing to make the daily rubber quota, Belgian Congo, 1904” https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/ …wvParticipantwvParticipant“why are you a commie, pinko, bedwetter?”
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