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March 15, 2020 at 7:13 pm in reply to: notes from expert panel on the virus & other expert views #112379
wvParticipantDo we have any logic-based-guesses on when the Virus is really gonna get going in the USA ? How soon before it gets rolling? Do we know?
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vwvParticipantwvParticipantwvParticipantI never like it when a league adds more playoff teams. I guess i should be happy the NFL only added one more team.
I dont wanna see .500 teams in the playoffs.
I’m not crazy about 9-7 teams getting in, either. I didnt think the Rams deserved a spot last year. I like my playoff teams to have at least 10 wins.
w
vwvParticipantSlate:https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/coronavirus-tsa-liquid-purell-paid-leave-rules.html
America Is a Sham
Policy changes in reaction to the coronavirus reveal how absurd so many of our rules are to begin with.
by Dan Kois
“….
…….
….Each day of this public health crisis brings a new example. People thrown in jail for minor offenses? San Antonio is one of many jurisdictions to announce that, to keep jails from being crowded with sick citizens, they’ll stop doing that. Why were they doing it in the first place?The federal government charging interest on loans to attend college? Well, Donald Trump has instructed government agencies who administer loans to waive interest accrual for the duration of the crisis. But why on earth is our government charging its own citizens interest anyway?
Broadband data caps and throttled internet? Those have been eliminated by AT&T and other ISPs, because of the coronavirus. But data caps and throttling were really just veiled price hikes that served no real technical purpose. Why did we put up with them?
Police helping landlords evict tenants in times of financial trouble? Due to the coronavirus, not anymore in New York, Miami, and New Orleans. But—and you see where this is going—why do the police aid evictions when tenants are stricken with other, non-coronavirus illnesses?
The city shutting off your water, or your power, as punishment for hardship? During this public health emergency, plenty of cities and companies have suddenly found a way to keep service turned on. “As long as COVID-19 remains a health concern,” said Detroit mayor Mike Duggan, “no Detroit resident should have concerns about whether their water service will be interrupted.” Why in the hell should any Detroit resident have concerns about their water service being interrupted, ever? Shouldn’t clean water be the absolute base level of service delivered by a city to its residents?
Sick employees forced to take unpaid leave or work while sick if they want to keep their jobs? Walmart recently announced it would provide up to two weeks of paid leave for any employee who contracts the coronavirus. And the House just passed a bill to address the problem, though as the New York Times editorial board notes, the House’s failure to make the bill universal “is an embarrassment that endangers the health of workers, consumers and the broader American public.” But why should any sick worker fear losing their pay or their job at any time? And why are the most vulnerable to punitive sick leave practices the workers making the lowest wages?” …see link
March 15, 2020 at 12:08 pm in reply to: Exit poll discrepancy & other voter suppression news #112357wvParticipantI wonder if the Virus will affect the actual physical act of Voting,
come general election time? I wonder if it will keep the turnout small?wvParticipantI couldn’t get through all of that… fucking Bill Maher…
As someone who’s VERY loud on twitter pushing the #NeverBiden and #BernieOrBust, I make it clear to every shitlib who makes the mistake of coming at me what’s up.
And it’s all your guys’ fault asking me if my principles matched my politics all those years ago…
Now I’m nearly a leftist… LOL
but for real, tho… I won’t vote for any Dem again. Period. Not even AOC if she runs in 2024.
That party needs to die in a fucking fire and the ONLY way that happens is if we stop acquiescing to this “lesser of two evils” nonsense… which it is because as we all know, it’s more accurate to say “the different of two evils”.
If anything, Trump’s incompetence has led him to do LESS harmful shit than Obama did… no new wars and very few legislative achievements unlike Clinton who woulda worked with McConnell to give the Republicans not only everything they wanted, but cover because it happened under a Dem President.
Nah, progressives and the left need a third party that actually represents what we want. Every time we vote for ANY Dem, we sabotage our own efforts and I won’t do it anymore.
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Well…damn. I’ve missed YOU, comrad.
I’m prettymuch in the same place as you, Mack, though, I am not exactly ‘at peace’ with where I’m at. I’m not ‘serene’ about it. I got here by thinking to myself…what do you do when every choice is a bad one, when every road leads to Hell? 🙂 My own answer to that was ‘vote yer conscience.’
But i totally respect any leftists decision to vote for Hillary/Biden/Gore/Edwards/Clinton/Whoever
Have you ever heard of Scott Nearing, btw? I’m reading a good book by him called Making Of A Radical
w
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Good book, I’m reading:https://www.amazon.com/Making-Radical-Political-Autobiography-Good-ebook/dp/B005VDX0B2
Scott Nearing
wvParticipantI couldn’t get through all of that… fucking Bill Maher…
As someone who’s VERY loud on twitter pushing the #NeverBiden and #BernieOrBust, I make it clear to every shitlib who makes the mistake of coming at me what’s up.
And it’s all your guys’ fault asking me if my principles matched my politics all those years ago…
Now I’m nearly a leftist… LOL
but for real, tho… I won’t vote for any Dem again. Period. Not even AOC if she runs in 2024.
That party needs to die in a fucking fire and the ONLY way that happens is if we stop acquiescing to this “lesser of two evils” nonsense… which it is because as we all know, it’s more accurate to say “the different of two evils”.
If anything, Trump’s incompetence has led him to do LESS harmful shit than Obama did… no new wars and very few legislative achievements unlike Clinton who woulda worked with McConnell to give the Republicans not only everything they wanted, but cover because it happened under a Dem President.
Nah, progressives and the left need a third party that actually represents what we want. Every time we vote for ANY Dem, we sabotage our own efforts and I won’t do it anymore.
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Well…damn. I’ve missed YOU, comrad.
I’m prettymuch in the same place as you, Mack, though, I am not exactly ‘at peace’ with where I’m at. I’m not ‘serene’ about it. I got here by thinking to myself…what do you do when every choice is a bad one, when every road leads to Hell? 🙂 My own answer to that was ‘vote yer conscience.’
But i totally respect any leftists decision to vote for Hillary/Biden/Gore/Edwards/Clinton/Whoever
Have you ever heard of Scott Nearing, btw? I’m reading a good book by him called Making Of A Radical
w
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wvParticipantI hadnt seen this one before. This is classic. A centrist and a leftist, try to talk politics. This is how it almost always goes.
wvParticipantAn almost capitalist rags to riches story.
w
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purrell:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/technology/coronavirus-purell-wipes-amazon-sellers.html
He Has 17,700 Bottles Of Hand SanitizerOn March 1, the day after the first coronavirus death in the United States was announced, brothers Matt and Noah Colvin set out in a silver S.U.V. to pick up some hand sanitizer. Driving around Chattanooga, Tenn., they hit a Dollar Tree, then a Walmart, a Staples and a Home Depot. At each store, they cleaned out the shelves.
Over the next three days, Noah Colvin took a 1,300-mile road trip across Tennessee and into Kentucky, filling a U-Haul truck with thousands of bottles of hand sanitizer and thousands of packs of antibacterial wipes, mostly from “little hole-in-the-wall dollar stores in the backwoods,” his brother said. “The major metro areas were cleaned out.”
Matt Colvin stayed home near Chattanooga, preparing for pallets of even more wipes and sanitizer he had ordered, and starting to list them on Amazon. Mr. Colvin said he had posted 300 bottles of hand sanitizer and immediately sold them all for between $8 and $70 each, multiples higher than what he had bought them for. To him, “it was crazy money.” To many others, it was profiteering from a pandemic.
The next day, Amazon pulled his items and thousands of other listings for sanitizer, wipes and face masks. The company suspended some of the sellers behind the listings and warned many others that if they kept running up prices, they’d lose their accounts. EBay soon followed with even stricter measures, prohibiting any U.S. sales of masks or sanitizer.
wvParticipantI’d like to see your precious James Nestor answer that!
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I ordered a used book authored by James Nestor, because in a youtube, he taught me that Sperm Whales can “vibrate a human to death” if they want to.
When is the MSM going to tell the American People that Sperm Whales have the power to vibrate us all to death? Why the cover-up? How did the entire establishment turn everyone into Vibration Deniers? Answer me that, Mr. Neanderthal.
w
vwvParticipant<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-skA4GhVX7k
The country is taking the virus seriously now with schools, sports, and events being cancelled. Even though our system is incredibly screwed up because of Trump, there’s still lots of professionals who will do a good job. The US probably won’t come close to doing as good as Germany and South Korea. But Germany has 4,000 cases and 8 deaths. Yes EIGHT!
So this virus is hardly the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic where millions died.
And you can bet that Trump will be crowing about how well he managed the crisis.
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Hope you are right, Cal. I dunno much about Germany, but I’m guessing they dont have millions of people with no health care.
w
vwvParticipantVirus comedy, is big in NY.
March 13, 2020 at 10:09 pm in reply to: notes from expert panel on the virus & other expert views #112258wvParticipantPS, on that link, if u scroll down to the bottom there is a good podcast on the virus, by doctory types:
link:https://emcrit.org/ibcc/covid19/======================
March 13, 2020 at 9:53 pm in reply to: notes from expert panel on the virus & other expert views #112257wvParticipantThis site is purty good on the basics, Invader. At least thats what I’ve been told. See the actual link. I just cut and pasted a bit of it.
Its ‘mutating’ btw. Two distinct strains as of now, from what i read from a Doc on a message board.link:https://emcrit.org/ibcc/covid19/
basics
COVID-19 is a non-segmented, positive sense RNA virus.
COVID-19 is part of the family of coronaviruses. This contains:
(i) Four coronaviruses which are widely distributed and usually cause the common cold (but can cause viral pneumonia in patients with comorbidities).
(ii) SARS and MERS – these caused epidemics with high mortality which are somewhat similar to COVID-19. COVID-19 is most closely related to SARS.
It binds via the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor located on type II alveolar cells and intestinal epithelia (Hamming 2004).
This is the same receptor as used by SARS (hence the technical name for the COVID-19, “SARS-CoV-2”).
When considering possible therapies, SARS (a.k.a. “SARS-CoV-1”) is the most closely related virus to COVID-19.
COVID-19 is mutating, which may complicate matters even further (figure below). Virulence and transmission will shift over times, in ways which we cannot predict. New evidence suggests that there are roughly two different groups of COVID-19. This explains why initial reports from Wuhan described a higher mortality than some more recent case series (Tang et al. 2020; Xu et al 2020).
(Ongoing phylogenetic mapping of new strains can be found here.)
———–stages of illness ??
There seem to be different stages of illness that patients may move through.
(#1) Replicative stage – Viral replication occurs over a period of several days. An innate immune response occurs, but this response fails to contain the virus. Relatively mild symptoms may occur due to direct viral cytopathic effect and innate immune responses.
(#2) Adaptive immunity stage – An adaptive immune response eventually kicks into gear. This leads to falling titers of virus. However, it may also increase levels of inflammatory cytokines and lead to tissue damage – causing clinical deterioration. There is a suggestion that this could lead to virus-induced hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH)(Mehta et al.). More discussion about this entity and possible therapy here.
This progression may explain the clinical phenomenon wherein patients are relatively OK for several days, but then suddenly deteriorate when they enter the adaptive immunity stage (e.g. Young et al. 3/3/2020).
This has potentially important clinical implications:
Initial clinical symptoms aren’t necessarily predictive of future deterioration. Sophisticated strategies may be required to guide risk-stratification and disposition (see below section on prognosis).
Anti-viral therapies might need to be deployed early to work optimally (during the replicative stage).
Immunosuppressive therapy (e.g. low-dose steroid) might be best initiated during the adaptive immune stage (with a goal of blunting this immunopathologic response slightly, in the sickest patients). But this is purely speculative.transmission
(back to contents)
large droplet transmissionCOVID-19 transmission can occur via large droplet transmission (with a risk limited to ~6 feet from the patient)(Carlos del Rio 2/28).
This is typical for respiratory viruses such as influenza.
Transmission via large droplet transmission can be prevented by using a standard surgical-style mask.airborne transmission ??
It’s controversial whether COVID19 can be transmitted via an airborne route (small particles which remain aloft in the air for longer periods of time). Airborne transmission would imply the need for N95 masks (“FFP2” in Europe), rather than surgical masks. This controversy is explored further in Shiu et al 2019.
Airborne precautions started being used with MERS and SARS out of an abundance of caution (rather than any clear evidence that coronaviruses are transmitted via an airborne route). This practice has often been carried down to COVID19.
Guidelines disagree about whether to use airborne precautions:
The Canadian Guidelines and World Health Organization guidelines both recommend using only droplet precautions for routine care of COVID19 patients. However, both of these guidelines recommend airborne precautions for procedures which generate aerosols (e.g. intubation, noninvasive ventilation, CPR, bag-mask ventilation, and bronchoscopy).
The United States CDC recommends using airborne precautions all the time when managing COVID19 patients.
Using airborne precautions for all patients who are definitely or potentially infected with COVID19 will likely result in rapid depletion of N95 masks. This will leave healthcare providers unprotected when they actually need these masks for aerosol-generating procedures.
In the context of a pandemic, the Canadian and WHO guidelines may be more sensible in countries with finite resources (i.e. most locales). However, infection control is ultimately local, so be sure to follow your hospital’s guidance regarding this.contact transmission (“fomite-to-face”)
This mode of transmission has a tendency to get overlooked, but it may be incredibly important. This is how it works:
(i) Someone with coronavirus coughs, emitting large droplets containing the virus. Droplets settle on surfaces in the room, creating a thin film of coronavirus. The virus may be shed in nasal secretions as well, which could be transmitted to the environment.
(ii) The virus persists on fomites in the environment. Human coronaviruses can survive on surfaces for up to about a week (Kampf et al 2020). It’s unknown how long COVID-19 can survive in the environment, but it might be even longer (some animal coronaviruses can survive for weeks!).
(iii) Someone else touches the contaminated the surface hours or days later, transferring the virus to their hands.
(iv) If the hands touch a mucous membrane (eyes, nose, or mouth), this may transmit the infection.
Any effort to limit spread of the virus must block contact transmission. The above chain of events can be disrupted in a variety of ways:
(a) Regular cleaning of environmental surfaces (e.g. using 70% ethanol or 0.5% sodium hypochlorite solutions; for details see Kampf et al 2020 and CDC guidelines).
(b) Hand hygiene (high concentration ethanol neutralizes the virus and is easy to perform, so this might be preferable if hands aren’t visibly soiled)(Kampf 2017).
(c) Avoidance of touching your face. This is nearly impossible, as we unconsciously touch our faces constantly. The main benefit of wearing a surgical mask could be that the mask acts as a physical barrier to prevent touching the mouth or nose.
Any medical equipment could become contaminated with COVID-19 and potentially transfer virus to providers (e.g. stethoscope earpieces and shoes). A recent study found widespread deposition of COVID-19 in one patient’s room, but fortunately this seems to be removable by cleaning with sodium dichloroisocyanurate (Ong et al 2020).when can transmission occur?
(#1) Asymptomatic transmission (in people with no or minimal symptoms) appears to be possible (Carlos del Rio 2/28).
(#2) Transmission appears to occur over roughly ~8 days following the initiation of illness.
Patients may continue to have positive pharyngeal PCR for weeks after convalescence (Lan 2/27). However, virus culture methods are unable to recover viable virus after ~8 days of clinical illness (Wolfel 2020). This implies that prolonged PCR positivity probably doesn’t correlate with clinical virus transmission. However, all subjects in Wolfel et al. had mild illness, so it remains possible that prolonged transmission could occur in more severe cases.
CDC guidance is vague on how long patients with known COVID-19 should be isolated. It may be advisable to obtain two paired RT-PCR tests (one of the nasopharynx and one of the pharynx), with each pair collected >24 hours apart, prior to discontinuing precautions.R⌀
R⌀ is the average number of people that an infected person transmits the virus to.
If R⌀ is <1, the epidemic will burn out.
If R⌀ = 1, then epidemic will continue at a steady pace.
If R⌀ >1, the epidemic will increase exponentially.
Current estimates put R⌀ at ~2.5-2.9 (Peng PWH et al, 2/28). This is a bit higher than seasonal influenza.
R⌀ is a reflection of both the virus and also human behavior. Interventions such as social distancing and improved hygiene will decrease R⌀.
Control of spread of COVID-19 in China proves that R⌀ is a modifiable number that can be reduced by effective public health interventions.
The R⌀ on board the Diamond Princess cruise ship was 15 – illustrating that cramped quarters with inadequate hygiene will increase R⌀ (Rocklov 2/28).March 13, 2020 at 9:48 pm in reply to: International articles, stuff, on Coronavirus… + Italy v. Singapore etc. #112251wvParticipantCoupla posts from the lifeboat board:https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/msg/1584129549.html
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More than half of UK needs to catch coronavirus to develop ‘herd immunity’, Government’s chief scientist says
” Sir Patrick Vallance told Sky News around 60% of the UK population would need to contract the deadly COVID-19 in order for society to develop “herd immunity”…”
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Reply:
Dan
yup. if 60% of population has to get high mortality disease to become immunePosted by dan on March 13, 2020, 8:45 pm, in reply to “Governments chief scientist claims 60% confers “Herd Immunity.””
then hundreds of thousands will die.
And then there’s the fact that it’s a mutating cold virus so we may not be immune anyway.
Apparently closing schools may knock 3% off gdp
Another Angry Voice is good on this – from facebook
Yesterday ITV reported that the favoured Tory Covid-19 strategy was to allow the British public to develop “herd immunity”.
In the absence of a Covid-19 vaccine this is a terrifying proposal: Mass exposure to the virus so people develop immunity to the strain, in the hope that it doesn’t just keep mutating into new strains like the flu and common cold do (incidentally – the more people who get exposed, the more likely Covid-19 mutates into a new strain that’s immune to previously acquired resistance).
Mass exposure undoubtedly means mass death (not just from the virus itself, but amongst other critically ill people who are crowded out of the health system), and Johnson was shockingly upfront about it when he warned the British public about the loss of their loved ones later in the day.
If the virus is allowed to spread to the point that the public acquire herd immunity, that would have to mean something like 90% exposure. With a death rate of somewhere around 2%-4%, that would require somewhere between 1.2 to 2.4 million deaths!
This strategy is completely out of step with the Asian countries that have contained the exponential spread of the virus, and with all of our European neighbours who have brought in measures like school closures, travel restrictions, and sports shut downs.
What the Tories are doing is playing another massive high stakes public policy gamble with potentially even more serious ramifications than their 2016 Brexit gamble.
If their gable pays off it means the virus will continue spreading across the world, with mass deaths in every country, but Britain will have avoided some of the more severe economic disruption experienced by other countries with stricter containment strategies.
If the gamble fails and Britain suffers mass deaths, while other countries manage to contain the crisis, or at least delay the worst of the carnage until after a vaccine is developed, then the losses will be extraordinary.
First of all hundreds of thousands of people will have needlessly died as a result of this Tory “herd immunity” strategy, but the economic losses could be absolutely enormous too.
Imagine other countries manage to contain the virus, but it runs wild in the UK and a few other nations led by hard-right ‘let the vulnerable die’ eugenicists.
It would obviously be in the other countries interests to prevent virus riddled British people keep reinfecting their populations.
We’d be looking at a travel ban to keep the virus in Britain and the other countries that decided to let the virus run wild.
And amazingly this isn’t even the worst case scenario. The worst case is that by letting the virus run through the population in an effort to develop herd immunity, the nation is turned into a breeding ground for mutant strains of the virus that can potentially reinfect everyone all over again, making the UK an absolute pariah-state.
Combined with the economic impact of all the deaths, the implications of becoming a virus-ridden pariah state are obviously far worse than the potential economic savings of delaying/avoiding economically disruptive containment measures.
In gambling terms it looks like the Tories are staking a vast sum on a bet with extremely short odds, meaning if they win they profit by a tiny fraction of the stake, but if they lose, they deliver not only mass deaths and NHS breakdown, but an economic crisis vastly larger than the economic disruption they’re seeking to avoid.
The really sad thing about this is that we all knew something like this was a possibility with the Tories in charge.
We know the Tories are prepared to let tens of thousands die as a result of their policies after their wanton cuts to the NHS and social care systems pushed huge numbers of people into early graves over the last decade.
We also know that they’re prone to taking massively risky public policy gambles, because of the way they allowed a Brexit referendum when the Brexiteers hadn’t even drawn up a plan for how to leave if they actually won.
We knew dangerous gambling, economic chaos, and unnecessary deaths were very serious risks when we reelected the Tories once again, but presumably those of us who voted for them considered these risks “a price worth paying” in return for whatever (probably imaginary) benefit they thought they’d be getting from Tories continuing to run the country.
wvParticipantRight.
And Dem Voters prefer the guy who doesnt want Medicare For ALL.
Biden-Voters are lucky that I am not GOD.
w
vMarch 13, 2020 at 8:50 pm in reply to: notes from expert panel on the virus & other expert views #112243wvParticipantcapitalism and the virus:https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/12/i-did-math-katie-porter-gets-trump-cdc-head-commit-making-coronavirus-testing-free?cd-origin=rss&utm_term=AO&utm_campaign=Daily%20Newsletter&utm_content=email&utm_source=Daily%20Newsletter&utm_medium=Email
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Common Dreams site‘I Did the Math’: Katie Porter Gets Trump CDC Head to Commit to Making Coronavirus Testing Free
“We live in a world where 33% of Americans put off medical treatment last year, and we have $1,133 expense just for testing for the coronavirus.”
by
Eoin Higgins, staff writerDemocratic firebrand Rep. Katie Porter on Thursday extracted a commitment from Centers for Disease Control director Dr. Robert Redfield to use his authority under federal regulations to waive the cost of coronavirus testing for all Americans.
“I did the math,” said Porter, holding up a whiteboard on which she wrote the associated costs to the total $1,331 bill.
“We live in a world where 40% of Americans can’t even afford a $400 unexpected expense,” said Porter. “We live in a world where 33% of Americans put off medical treatment last year, and we have $1,133 expense just for testing for the coronavirus.”
Noting that the prohibitive expense of the test could discourage poorer Americans from getting tested, Porter demanded Redfield use his legal authority under the Code of Federal Regulations to waive the cost.
After a back and forth in which Porter called Redfield’s attempts to avoid committing to covering the cost “not good enough,” the California Democrat finally got Redfield to commit to using his authority under 82 CFR 6975 to waive the costs of testing.
Watch the full exchange:…
Progressives praised the California Democrat’s latest standoff with a Trump administration official and noted that Porter and Redfield’s exchange had real-world, positive consequences for the country.
“Representative Katie Porter just got CDC director Robert Redfield to commit to making coronavirus testing free for anyone regardless of insurance,” tweeted the Atlantic’s James Hamblin. “That’s big.”
Crooked Media’s Priyanka Aribindi simply stated her admiration.
“Katie Porter is fucking phenomenal,” said Aribindi.
wvParticipantForming an actual progressive if not fully left third party. Not sure if it should be the Progressive Party, the People’s Party or something else. It’s worth the effort because the Dems will NEVER give an inch to the left or even move back just to the center. They’re a center right corporate neolib neocon party and as long as they have corporate backers so that they don’t have to answer to the people, they won’t.
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Thanks for posting, Mack. I know the site is super-slow, etc, but itz all we got 🙂
At any rate, we already got a progressive party. The one Jill Stein and Ralph Nader ran on — Green Party.
Now, what would happen if, instead of getting the usual 2 percent of the vote, the Green Party was able to command 7 or 8 percent. Or somethin like that. It wouldnt take that many Dem-Progressives to do that.
That would mean the Progressives would have some clout. The Dems would HAVE to make deals if they wanted to win these close elections with the Thugs.
Now maybe its not the time for that. Maybe voting for the Imperalist-mass-murderer-Biden, and thus beating the Biosphere-murderer-Trump is more important this time around. I dont know. But I for one, would LOVE to see Prog-Dems start a dialogue WITH the Green Party and at the very least THREATEN to join. Start a movement. Make the switch. Get millions to switch. Whats the fucking down side to that? None. The greens could always still do the lesser evil thing in the general election if they wanted to.
I could go on 🙂
Btw, most of us around here are fucking OLD. Some of us might not make it thru this Pandemic. Let us be grateful for the time we have spent ranting about injustice, together 🙂 Carry on, All.
w
vwvParticipantPeople are pissed now. And I think you absolutely WILL see a decrease in Leftist turnout for Biden this time….
….
….This is because the DNC would rather lose to Trump than win with Sanders. THEY are to blame for this. The media will blame the Left. And THIS time they will at least most likely have evidence that supports that. And when the DNC actually BELIEVES that the Left cost them the election, maybe THEN it will start to do something about it.==================
Well, ok, but we (leftists) have been down this road over and over and over. None of this is new, as you know.
So, what…exactly…should…leftist VOTERS do with their VOTES. (I am not asking about what they should be doing with the other 364 days of the year…)
I am basically asking, why shouldnt all the leftists get together and say “fuck the democrats” lets vote for the Green Party. And keep voting Green UNTIL the Dems give us SOMETHING. Some crumbs. Some Policies. SOMETHING.
I know it would mean Reps would be elected. I get that. But it would also mean, eventually the Dems would HAVE to come to the table with SOMETHING.
Unlike now.The argument I always here is (as you know) Trump is just TOO Awful to consider, blah blah blah.
Problem with that is i heard the same thing about Bush. Its always the same argument.
How long do leftists play a LOSING game? Same Old Sorry ASS Lesser-Evil Game.
I think its worth playing — ONLY IF — the left actually gets SOMETHING> Thats how coalitions work in Europe.
w
vwvParticipantwvParticipantBtw…if you watch the whole vid…notice Krystal Ball’s anger. I see it SOOOOOO often among my leftist comrads. That anger.
There should be a word for it. Leftist + Anger.
Langer?
Angtist?
Lage? (Left Rage)w
vwvParticipantGovernement Virus-policies will help the wealthy more than the poor,
naturally.wvParticipant<
You know WV-I consider you an internet friend. You may not feel the same. I can’t help that. In any event you just called Joe Biden a “murderous imperialist”. You also called him a “shitbag”.In another post above you called him a “mass murderer”. That type of vitriol is precisely why many cannot take seriously the supporters of Sanders and are in fact put off by it. It certainly does not do anything for the advancement of the ideas expressed by Sanders. What’s also concerning is that over the years your attacks have almost always been against democrats. I have not read a negative word from you about Trump-the worst President in the hx of this nation. Every post of yours contains the word “corporatocracy” but not one word about Trump who is doing insurmountable damage to our judicial system-an arena we both work in. Nothing about how he is dismantling medicaid -a health safety net for the poor. Nothing about his desire to get rid of medicare. Nothing about his racist and mysogynistic views. Simply put, nothing about the man who has disdain for the less fortunate. Corporations will always be here but the evils of corporatocracy will only enlarge with this man should he have another 4 years of executive decisions. Anyway, I wish your arrows could sometimes be pointed in another direction.
================Good post. Glad to hear you think of me as an internet-friend. Good to know.
As for me, i think of you as an internet-friend too.
But of course you are a friend with FUNDAMENTAL political differences.
So, it makes it hard when we talk politix. People all over the country are challenged by friend or family ‘civil wars’ over politics these days.
We cant always agree. Ah well.As for me not slamming Trump. BillyT has mentioned that too. I dunno what to tell ya — I feel like i slam Trump and the Reps plenty. I have said I agree with Chomsky — “The Republican Party is an existential threat to all life on the planet.” Thats what Chomsky said. I agree with it. I’ve said that.
Its just a ‘given’ to me. Its like saying the Bengals are dysfunctional. Just a given.Our ‘fundamental difference’ is NOT on the murderous, biosphere-killing, anti-science, anti-poor, racist, sexist, greedy, hypocritical, lying, willfully-ignorant, SHIT-BAG-Republithugs.
Our differences are on the Democrats. We agree on the Rep-Thugs.
Fwiw, and i KNOW you dont agree with this — but this is WHY i use the term ‘murderer’ to describe Biden. And Clinton. And Obama. I mean the word, literally.
Lets say, the FBI or CIA showed up in a police captain’s office in your town, and said, “We have solid information, that a terrorist/murderer is living/meeting in the house next to Waterfield’s house. And lets say, the Captain of the police looked at the ‘evidence’ and without a trial, simply ‘decided’ to send a police drone-bomb into the house next to yours. Now the captain did indeed ‘try to avoid civilian casualties’ by sending the drone bomb in at night, on a Sunday, etc.
But the bomb took out many rooms in the building in question plus part of your house. ‘Innocent’ lives were torn apart. Body parts everywhere. The captain didnt really keep track or report to the press how many people were killed. “Collateral damage” was kept to a ‘minimum’ is what the captain reported to the Press. And the Press really wasnt interested in who was killed or how many. Only that a “murderer” was “eliminated” in this Just and Holy American “War On Murderers.”Now. Would that be ok with you? If American Police acted that way?
No, it would not. You’d call it murder, yes?But Biden/Obama did that regularly. ONLY difference is, the murdered people were not Americans living in America. They were human beings living in other countries. Mainly brown people, living in the middle east.
So…that…makes it…not murder? Why?I agree with Chomsky. Every modern president has been a mass murderer. Doesnt have to be that way. It…doesnt.
I know you see it totally differently.wv
PS — Jimmy Dore suggests on youtube that Progressives/Bernie should extract some sort of deal from Biden in return for supporting him. Unlike last time when progressives just gave their support over to Hillary. I dunno why in the world progressives would trust Biden, but I do wonder if Bernie will try and work out some sort of agreement with Biden.wvParticipantMark Mane La Flare@BossmanJiggetts
Rest of the NBA season got cancelled so I went downstairs and talked to my family. They seem like nice people.==============
LoL.
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vwvParticipantI dunno. I dunno anything anymore.
…..Bernie Sanders is a rare man in politics, and he is the kind of politician literally everybody says they ideally want: honest and dependable. The fact that this man – who has spent his entire life fighting on behalf of poor and marginalized people – has been smeared for 4 years by the Democrat establishment as a sexist threat to democracy, tells you everything you need to know about how much the Democrat party actually cares about ordinary people.
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You really think Biden is a lesser candidate than Hillary? I dont agree on that. From what I’ve heard (on Fox news 🙂 ) Hillary’s ‘negatives’ are WAY higher than Bidens. Biden is just this ‘bland’ drab, boring, typical Dem. Like John Kerry, Al Gore, Dukakis.
BUT, he worked with/for OBAMA. And he doesnt have the big negatives Hillary had.
Centrists, conservative-professional-moderate-Reps, and Dems are not gonna care that he’s senile. They dont care. They just want the National-Security-Ship-Of-State to run smoothly. A senile President can do that just fine. (Think Radar and Colonel Blake)It all comes down to Progressives. If they hold their noses and vote for that lowlife CIA-loving, pro-corporate, imperialist, murderous, shitbag – Joe Biden will be the next President.
And btw, I jus wanna make it clear that i TOTALLY respect the view that progressives should or will vote for the lesser evil, and thus vote for the murderous imperialist Joe Biden. Its a perfectly reasonable decision. Chomsky has talked endlessly about it over the years. I’ve done it myself in the past.
For me personally, though, there came a time i just decided i wont do it anymore.
Its got nothing to do with WV being a Red-State or any other ‘calculation’ like that. Its hard to explain. Its a conscience thing. Coupled with a recognition of what the system is. Frankly I may not even vote at all the rest of my life. I havent decided on that. I lean toward voting Green, but i may not vote anymore.
…my vote has moved to Thailand, perhaps 🙂PS — this virus could put the nation in a bad mood. Not good for Trump.
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vwvParticipantSo you don’t have to worry about people here making an “ideological choice” against a guy they otherwise know to be a solid candidate. Far from it. That is not what’s happening.
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I think Biden can beat Trump. It would be very close. Biden has the backing of the National-Security-State and all the usual Banks and Corporations and various parts of the Corporate-Capitalist Death-Machine. Absolutely, he can win. He just needs a few more votes than his counterpart, Hillary. And he should get them, if more Blacks turn out this time.
His Mental Deterioration will not bother Older voters, i dont think. Heck they might find it endearing, the way voters found Bush’s stupidity endearing.
If he does lose, it will be because Progressives just couldnt vote for another mass-murderer. 🙂 Will Progressives vote for him in numbers? He’s already giving lip-service to progressives and bernie etc. Biden’s people know who they need. I ‘think’ enough progressives will vote for him that he will win. (I wont be voting for a mass-murderer myself, but blah blah blah)
So, yeah Biden will beat Trump, I think.
I also think Bernie could beat Trump. But Biden will be the nominee now as we all know.
Centrists can label a vote a “statement” vote whatever that means, but thats just the centrist-mindset at work. I vote my conscience. I wont vote for a mass-murderer. Biden was part of Obama’s Drone-murder scheme, etc. Either murder matters or it doesnt.
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vwvParticipant“…my people are being misinformed…”
wvParticipantJoe Byedumb and DNC want cancel the debate and not let the “system play out” and “play by the rules”
Keep fighting Mr Sanders!!! These young voters need to vote!
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I didnt figure Bernie would drop out. For him, Its about the ideas and the debate and the long-term-progressive-movement and the young people at this point.Bernie:
“A short while ago, I gave a brief statement to the press about our campaign, and where we go from here. I want to share some of those thoughts with you today, and to ask you, once again, for your financial support.If you can do that now, please use this link to contribute $2.70:
https://act.berniesanders.com/go/forward
Let me start by saying that last night was not a good night for our campaign from a delegate point of view.
We lost the largest state of the night, Michigan, but we won in North Dakota and currently lead in the state of Washington, the second largest state of the evening.
But what has become more and more apparent, with each passing primary, is that while we are currently trailing in the delegate count, we are strongly winning the debate about the future of our country.
In poll after poll after poll, including exit polls, a strong majority of the American people support our progressive agenda.
The American people are deeply concerned about the grotesque levels of income and wealth inequality in this country.
The American people believe it is time for the wealthy and profitable corporations to be paying their fair share.
The American people understand that the federal minimum wage is a starvation wage and that it is time to raise it to a living wage of $15 an hour – nothing less.
The American people understand that if our kids are going to make it into the middle class, we must make public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition free.
The American people understand that we cannot continue a cruel and dysfunctional health care system where we are spending twice as much per capita as any other nation, yet 87 million of our neighbors remain uninsured and underinsured.
And that last point is becoming more and more obvious to the American people as we face the challenge of the coronavirus. Imagine a pandemic where 87 million people have a difficult time going to a doctor.
The American people understand that climate change is an existential threat to our planet and we need to transform our energy system away from fossil fuels.
The American people understand that we need to transform our broken and racist criminal justice and immigration system that locks up four times as many people as communist China and leaves millions here at home living in fear.
But it is not just the ideological debate we are winning.
We are winning the generational debate as well.
While Joe Biden does well with older Americans, especially those over 65 years old, our campaign continues to win a vast majority of younger people in this country.
But while we are winning — very clearly — the ideological debate, we are losing, right now, the electability debate.
I cannot tell you how many people I and our campaign have spoken to that tell me that they like what our campaign stands for but they are going to vote for Joe Biden because they believe he is the best candidate to beat Trump.
Needless to say, I strongly disagree.
So, on Sunday, I very much look forward to debating Joe Biden about these issues in Arizona. This will be the first 1-on-1 debate of this campaign, and I am eager for the American people to see which candidate — which agenda — is best positioned to defeat Donald Trump, the most dangerous president in modern American history.”
wvParticipantBut for a guy that thinks he’s a ‘realist’ and pragmatic and all, you dont appear to have actually listened to actual black people much.
I just said this to W…can we reign it in a bit? In terms of the tone we as posters take with one another.
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Well, I wasnt feeling any ‘heat’ really. I dunno how my post came across, but I wasn’t ‘reacting’ or ’emotionally’ invested in the racism accusation. I was just pointing out that yes, many black people vote against their own interest, out of loyalty to Obama…etc. And many whites do the same thing — see the Trump election.
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