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Looking at yesterday’s election results I’m struck by how much both the far left and the far right have in common. Seems to me that we are becoming a country of angry “statement” makers. The Trump supporters are angry and want to make a statement. The Sanders supporters are angry and need to make a statement. Neither give much consideration as to how to get actual “stuff” done. So why are we so angry ? And how can the far right be angry and the far left be angry at the same time? Seems to me that the Republicans are moving further and further and further to the right and the Democrats are moving further and further and further to the left.
At some point in time we need to stop making “statements” and get stuff done. And that’s called pragmatism.
I need a drink.
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You always say that, W. Not that there’s anything wrong with that
Those of us who simply believe in Sanders/Stein’s POLICIES
dont see supporting him/her as “making statements.”Its real simple — we think Sanders/Stein’s POLICIES
are better for the poor, and the biosphere, than
the Pro-Corporate Candidates.Anger is a different subject. Are a lot of the Sanders and Stein and Trump folks “angry” ? Sure. A lot are fed up with all kinds of things.
I think you make a mistake conflating the Trump supporters and the Sanders/Stein supporters simply because you see a lot of ‘anger’
in both sides. They seem to be angry about much different
policies and issues, when I talk to both groups…Personally, just speaking for me, I’m very angry
about three things in a nutshell:
1) Inequality (Ie, poverty and all the myriad ways the poor
are degraded, dehumanized, and destroyed, by corporate power)
2) The destruction of the Biosphere (corporate power)
3) The destruction of meaningful democracy by corporate power. (Citizens United, corporate personhood, media owned by the rich, etc, etc)The ‘pragmatic’ candidates wont work to change
those three things, in my view.So, ya know, i respectfully disagree. …there was a time
i would have ‘gone off’ on you, btw, as you know.I’ve mellowed
I just ‘sigh’ now.
w
vI think voters ARE making a statement. Just not in the way W puts it. I think dismissing it as a “statement” comes from a Fixed mindset, rather that a Growth mindset. A Fixed mindset believes that everything is basically the way it is, and there isn’t much one can do about it. A Growth mindset thinks that improvements can be made through dedication and effort.
You know, I read somewhere that Hillary basically said last week that Bernie should drop out … you know, “Thank you for coming,” … so that she could get on with the Real Business of aiming to defeat Trump/Whoever.
It’s just so condescending and entitled. Like, “Molly, will you take the children to the kitchen and give them some tea with honey before putting them to bed, so we adults can carry on with the actual job of governing, please.”
This is more than a “statement.” There is one of them there tidal shifts in the political spectrum going on here, and the Elites in both parties are completely missing what is happening because they are misdiagnosing this as a temper tantrum from the Low Information voters on one side, and Impractical Ideological voters on the other. They are saying out loud that this little statement just needs to be Handled, and order restored. But I think they are underestimating this move. The fault lines of politics may possibly be realigned this year. I think we are moving from cultural issues towards economic issues as the fault line politically.
I think WV pretty much nailed the Sanders supporters’ point of view:
Personally, just speaking for me, I’m very angry
about three things in a nutshell:
1) Inequality (Ie, poverty and all the myriad ways the poor
are degraded, dehumanized, and destroyed, by corporate power)
2) The destruction of the Biosphere (corporate power)
3) The destruction of meaningful democracy by corporate power. (Citizens United, corporate personhood, media owned by the rich, etc, etc)Furthermore, they believe that neither party is tackling these issues in a serious way. In fact, there is a strong belief that the party system has been completely bought by Wall Street. The Sanders democrats think they get lip service from the Clintons et al.
Now, interestingly, I think the Trump supporters have a lot in common with the Sanders supporters. I think they largely agree with points 1 and 3, though their frame is slightly different.
1) Inequality. They see the same thing The money is going upwards. The jobs are going overseas, or being taken by immigrants. Now, they aren’t against inequality IN PRINCIPLE (i.e. they don’t care that minorities suffer inequality, or that other parts of the world suffer; they care only that THEY suffer inequality). But there is an alignment here. I believe that some Trump supporters could be moved back to the Democrat party of their fathers under the right conditions. (And that those conditions are materializing right now – though I am making no prediction that they will continue to materialize).
2) Well, they don’t care about the environment. What I’d place here is that they are angry about the erosion of their culture by other cultures: gay Mexican Muslims, basically.
3) They wouldn’t cite Citizens United, or corporate personhood, or media owned by the rich – since they probably don’t know anything about these things – but they do recognize that their Republican politicians have been promising them all kinds of cultural victories, and trickled down prosperity, and they see that they have waited 35 years for this, and not only has it not been delivered, their circumstances are worse. They see that Wall Street got bailed out and Middle America didn’t. They see that the game is rigged, and they are being abused not only by foreigners, but by their ostensible leaders.Now, I THINK that the Trump supporters are growing more ticked off about their jobs/future than they are about gay rights. So you have Trump pulling in 40% of the Republican party, and Sanders pulling close to 50% of the Democrat party, and both factions are discontent with the financial elites. That is important common ground, and represents a LOT of American voters. This isn’t Nader’s 7%. This is MUCH bigger than that, and the mainstream apologists are missing the scope of this “statement.” Note, for example, that Trump is in favor of some kind of universal health care. Trump + Sanders on this issue represents a LOT of support. So if you are telling me progress on this is not practical, and not pragmatic, I tell you that you aren’t paying attention to what is happening. These are not 7% sandcastle movements that are going to get washed away with the inevitable high tide. This is different. And Hillary and Rove and Kristol are imperiled by their blindness. Which is great as far as I’m concerned.
I also am among those who believe that the Republicans are headed to even greater trauma before this thing is over, and that the strange bedfellows within that party may split. You’ve got all those corporatists meeting on that island off of Georgia trying to figure out how they are going to keep the party together, and they so far are not showing signs that they understand what the problem is, so I’m not sure they are going to come up with a plan that will keep their hold on the party.
