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znModeratorThat’s IT? That’s all? You watch a whole game and all you got is, Joyner got picked on?
I suppose we;ll just wait patiently for the rest……….
August 30, 2014 at 1:52 am in reply to: this idea that the Rams are tight against the cap? Demoff on that #5540znModeratorThe next thing you posted was this thread. And you say “I didn’t have in mind our earlier discussion” Really?
Yes, really TD…what got me into looking up the Demoff was posts out on the net like the one I cite (where I quoted the title: Re: Very True, Rams are last in NFL in cap space ). It was not personal, and if I had intended to continue the specific discussion directly with you, I would have just said so, and done so. If I want to challenge someone one on one, I just do it…though I also take pains to be civil. Either way that just looks to me like a minor exchange that passed and was over. Even if, as you say, we were just talking about 2 different things.
I even said so above: So anyway while I see why you get the impression I was making this personal, all that happened is that I got into the issue itself for other reasons and just wanted to look it up and be precise about it and get it out there as a topic.
I stand by all that. In the course of the day I ended up drifting into a topic that interested me and I wanted to clarify.
So, are we done here? Because IMO nothing happened between us personally, and to me the more interesting topic is how the Rams handle the cap. So let’s move on, fair enough?
So about the topic itself–I think it’s interesting that the Rams play the frontload game the way they do, to the point where Demoff has to openly explain that (in his words) I don’t think we will ever be a team that has the most “room” in the NFL the way we look at contracts, but the fact that may be closer to the cap can also be misleading.
August 30, 2014 at 1:37 am in reply to: Rams/Dolphins replay is on NFL network Saturday 8/30 @7:00am eastern #5538znModeratorI hereby bump this thread for good and noble reasons.
znModeratorMyself I have Bayer way ahead of Cunningham I don’t think that one is even close. I would put Watts ahead of Reynolds.I think Givens
has woken and showed his old self the last 2 games.Givens is a missed tackle from a td anywhere on the field and I just don’t see them giving up that speed. Pettis has a niche but has been quiet after earning the title “Mr.Spring”. I like Franklin he has some return skills he understands and runs great routes,makes plays and Watts credited him with the block that got Watts a td in the Browns game.With his limited touches he sure made the most of them. I don’t know if he did enough to bump Pettis but if he gets away I think the Rams will regret it.So far, at this hour, that we know of, the only guy you list who has been cut is Franklin.
August 29, 2014 at 10:58 pm in reply to: this idea that the Rams are tight against the cap? Demoff on that #5519znModeratorzn, I am not sure why you are going to this effort about this. Nothing you have posted contradicts what I said. Your quote was “but that is flexible. They can un-do it a little when they need to.” That is all I said. The Rams will have to undo things a little and I named three possible sources. I do think that the Rams are close enough to the cap that they will undo things a little and I think Demoff knows exactly where he can do that. I think they need to free up somewhere from $2M to $4M. They will have to find cap space for all 53 players (instead of 51), for those on IR, and for the practice squad. Most teams keep a little extra on hand for use during the season, but Demoff keeps this closer than most teams.
TD, it wasn’t about you. I read threads on other boards about this–the idea that the Rams lack cap space.
An example: Re: Very True, Rams are last in NFL in cap space (who wrote that isn’t relevant).
I didn’t have in mind our earlier discussion and if I did, I would have the decency to post it in that thread with a direct address to you (I don’t like this coy “some people say” routine when in fact the person is talking to YOU).
In any event, what led me to re-find the Demoff quote was just the general issue–the perception that the Rams being last in cap space means they are actually cap tight.
The details about what they need and why and for what are pretty clear but it did not seem to be common knowledge that in fact that’s just how they play it, for the sake of the frontloading.
If we agree we agree but that wasn’t what was on my mind when I decided to dig up Demoff and look at his exact wording. So anyway while I see why you get the impression I was making this personal, all that happened is that I got into the issue itself for other reasons and just wanted to look it up and be precise about it and get it out there as a topic.
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August 29, 2014 at 9:58 pm in reply to: this idea that the Rams are tight against the cap? Demoff on that #5516znModeratorI don’t think we will ever be a team that has the most “room” in the NFL the way we look at contracts, but the fact that may be closer to the cap can also be misleading. We have one of the lowest amounts of signing bonus proration in the NFL both now and moving forward, which means our cap dollars are all in salary cap space that can be converted if necessary. Our goal is to always have salary cap options, not just room.
Okay that means this.
1. They frontload.
2. They try to maximize the frontloading, but that is flexible. They can un-do it a little when they need to. So for example it looks like they spent to the cap this year, but the truth is, the contracts are set up in such a way that they can change that easily and on short notice. What that does is create a little more space THIS year but subtract a bit from the open space they left in future years. They can trade back and forth on that.
3. That means they will LOOK like they are tight against the cap any given year, but that’s in appearance only…any time they need more space, it’s there. They simply have to re-structure someone so that they trade space now for future space.
4. It’s like you put all your money into savings, and only an allowance in checking. Let’s say this month the allowance isn’t workable because something comes up. You just put a little less in savings THIS ONE TIME, without overdoing it. It works exactly like that.
znModeratorAustin Davis on Being Rams #2 Quarterback Spot
znModeratorBefore all is said and done the Rams will have to come up with some cap space.
I’m not sure that’s the case. If you listen to Demoff on the cap, they always look tighter than they are. That’s deliberate, because they are frontloading as much as possible. But in many cases, simple tweaks here or there to this or that contract creates space with minimal effort. So I think if they need space, they already have the names and numbers in mind and can change things quickly and painlessly.
znModeratorGoing out of town for the weekend. If NFL Channel actually shows the game (grrr!) I’ll see it some time Mon. night or Tues.
Sounds like a minimally significant game.
It’s not a significant game at all, yeah. BUT it does showcase youngsters under fire. For example, after this game, a lot of people feel more comfortable with Austin Davis, and many are excited by Tre Watts. You see a lot of Westbrooks, the OL depth and wannabes, and some (presently) lower-level Rams vets like Givens and Pettis get to show their strengths.
I am a bit concerned, btw, that Bailey may have stepped back a bit. That the promised breakthrough will be delayed.
znModeratorJim Fadler @jimiramsboy
I predict that over the next 3 days, every QB in the NFL that gets cut will be linked to the #Rams at one point or the other #Don’tBuyInJim Fadler @ jimiramsboy
By the time its all over I expect both Michael Sam and Westbrooks will have made the #RamsJim Fadler @ jimiramsboy
I would believe that Kourtnei Brown has a great chance to make the practice squad. #GoRamsJim Fadler @ jimiramsboy
And Mitchell Van Dyk showed absolutely nothing in camp #GoRamsJim Fadler @ jimiramsboy
Gilbert has some physical ability and tools but ultimately you gotta turn loose of the ball and that he struggles with #GoRamsJim Fadler @ jimiramsboy
#Rams fan any jokes about the release of Sean Hooey qualify as low hanging fruitJim Fadler @ jimiramsboy
Does Conrath make the #Rams?….That might be Westbrooks slot right thereAugust 29, 2014 at 5:34 pm in reply to: video/audio on the Miami game – highlights, Thomas, Fisher #5493znModeratorRams at Dolphins Highlights: The St. Louis Rams take a demanding 13-0 lead in the 3rd quarter, but the Miami Dolphins rally in the 4th to defeat the Rams 14-13.
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Highlight: Givens Hauls in 24-yard Pass…Watch St. Louis Rams quarterback Austin Davis complete a pass to wide receiver Chris Givens for 24 yards in the final preseason game against Miami
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Watch St. Louis Rams cornerback E.J. Gaines intercept Miami Dolphins quarterback Seth Lobato pass in the final preseason game.
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Highlight: Davis and Pettis Connect for TD…Watch St. Louis Rams quarterback Austin Davis connect with wide receiver Austin Pettis for an 11-yard touchdown in the final preseason game against Miami.
znModeratorVaried opinions out there regarding cuts. Some offer up a scenario where both Sam and Westbrook’s make the squad.
My own personal feeling (and that’s all it is) is that it appears that the OL is a bit fuzzier than the DL. If that were true, why would you want to overstock a unit that appears to be your strongest?
I believe Fisher said that both lines were pretty deep, just wondering out loud where to overstock, if you indeed were going to do that.
Some tough calls to make comin up.
Well a couple of the offensive linemen they can stash on the practice squad, which was just extended to 10. They don’t have that luxury with the DL.
So do they keep 10 DL and 9 OL, with practice squad backing?
Or do they keep 9 DL and 10 OL?
Part of this is that when it reaches a certain point, they aren’t thinking about the unit, but they’re asking, who are the best 53 players out of the entire 75. Is Westbrooks a better player than Person?
Another thing to remember is that these guys are not afraid to bring in cuts and waiver wire bodies and other kinds of nomad players to stock the OL. In fact, in 2012, AFTER final cutdowns and into the season, they brought in Smith, Williams, Barksdale, Washington, and Nsekhe. I think Boudreau likes taking young 2-3 year vets and re-molding them. He may even do better with that than with rookies.
znModeratorEither “Chill,” “Fire Drill,” or “Goodwill.”
August 29, 2014 at 1:18 pm in reply to: I think Sam Bradford will renegotiate his deal with Rams #5467znModeratorIt’s my understanding that one cannot renegotiate to give back salary. On paper at least a monetary gain needs to appear, even if it’s extended out into the future.
Well, you can, but that’s not what anyone’s talking about. No one in this thread is saying “have him give back money.”
I mention an extension. That’s different from just giving back money. What happens with an extension in a situation like this? We’ve already seen it with Wells. Someone with an injury history trades in salary numbers for incentives.
Goes like this, maybe. (I will make numbers up…I’m not using the real numbers. This is just an illustration.) Let’s say Bradford is owed 15 M in 2015, his last year. But he has to prove he’s back and has incentive to do so. The team wants him back because if nothing else they don’t want to see a scenario where 2 years from now he’s the Patriots qb and doing well. Plus they have a lot invested in him, and I don’t mean money.
So he signs a three year deal that stretches out the cap hit, lowers it in 2015 (to say 7-8 M), has playing time incentives and roster bonuses built in.
That means that Bradford gets his chance to come back, and the team is set to assess and pull the plug if that doesn’t work.
I can fully imagine him on the team next year.
I can’t imagine why the Rams WOULDN’T want to do that. Here they have a young qb who, if he recovers (and the odds are good he will according to the last thing posted about this here), he brings with him the physical skills (arm/release), the backing of the team, the knowledge of the system and of the receivers–plus THEY believe (as do I) that he was taking it to another level. Why would they walk away from that.
If they do all the other things they should at the same time, then, why not. Those things including drafting another young qb, and signing another vet qb (Hill or someone else) plus Davis might factor in.
Given all that, there’s nothing to lose and a lot to gain.
znModeratorHere’s a very full, very diverse thread on this. It’s the PD board so you have to step over the occasional do-do post, but it’s as complete a thread on this issue as you will find. BUT you have to read the whole thing. Can’t just browse it. Like many discussions, it takes twists and turns, and one side seems to be dominating than the other does.
http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1050697
znModeratorI don’t recall seeing that one.
It may not have been here.
August 29, 2014 at 1:21 am in reply to: I think Sam Bradford will renegotiate his deal with Rams #5441znModeratorAs well, I seriously doubt that Bradford is going to be courted seriously by teams coming off his 2nd ACL tear with big contract offers.
All you need is one willing to stash him until he can show what he has.
Like for example–the Patriots.
It’s the Plunkett situation.
Besides, the main thing is, I doubt this bunch (Rams front office, Kroenke) would be willing to do the cold, cut and re-sign route anyway. Just how I see these guys. I see them as wanting to do it differently in this case.
But either way, we don’t know yet and there’s a lot of ground to cover before any of that comes up for real.
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August 29, 2014 at 1:00 am in reply to: I think Sam Bradford will renegotiate his deal with Rams #5438znModeratorWhy extend him? Just cut him and sign him. It’s the business side of things. The Rams have already invested umpteen millions of dollars. And you know me to be pretty sappy when it comes to this stuff, but really, what’ s to be gained by extending him over just writing just a pure “prove it” contract?
If we extend him, it’s not going to be more than 2 years and that 2nd year is going to be voidable, anyway, so it’ll be just like 2 x 1 year contracts. Plus, there won’t be a signing bonus or at least there better not be, so why do it?
Essentially, you could do it on the same day unless there’s a waiting period or something. He wouldn’t have to clear waivers, so it wouldn’t be that. The Rams could cut him and then resign him immediately to the new deal. Whether that happens on the same day may be a function of the Cap and the CBA, but the Rams and Tom Condon can work out the details and both would be clear that they’re on the same page and still value Sam.
Plenty of guys have been cut and resigned because of how it affects the cap. I see no reason why Sam Bradford shouldn’t be treated like any other player in that regard.
The only reason I could think to extend him would be the logistics (just thought of this). If the timeline makes it more of a pain, I could see them essentially extending him and Sam Bradford just agreeing to different terms for the next two years with much lower salary with significant escalator clauses which in essence, would pay him close to what he would have earned if he starts all 16 games and plays well, but if he doesn’t play, he doesn’t make hardly any money. Now THAT I could see… I mean as long as the salaries weren’t guaranteed and any bonuses were Seasonal roster bonuses.
Because you don’t do the strict business side of things with your qb. Cause, if nothing else, he just signs with someone else.
So if an extension and a cut/signing net the same results, you obviously choose the extension.
In terms of your last paragraph? The bolded stuff? That’s sort of what I have been saying about this so far. That, and you also re-sign Hill (unless some other team makes him unaffordable) plus either draft someone or sign someone else or both.
Anyway…all that aside, any qb they have will be playing for a much stronger team next year, in every single respect. Next year it will be stronger, and as it stands right now it’s already much stronger now than it was in 2012.
August 28, 2014 at 11:09 pm in reply to: I think Sam Bradford will renegotiate his deal with Rams #5425znModeratorThe only question now is if he gets outright cut in March or if he redoes his deal. And once March comes around, the Rams don’t owe him anything as he’s on the last year of his contract. So, what is there to renegotiate? The Rams could renegotiate him if they feared he’d go somewhere else, but where’d the market be for a 2 ACL QB with “potential” as his biggest selling point?
There would be incentive for both parties to write a “prove it” extension. Re-negotiating happens with one year left–it just has to be an extension. A good “prove it” extension lets the player come along at his own pace and then get a chance demonstrate if he’s back, and if he is, it’s open to a 2nd extension. If he isn’t losses are cut.
I don’t see what the Rams have to lose by doing that. And they have a lot to gain by doing that. Plus, given everything they invested in the guy, and given the way they’re talking about him now, it seems to me they are open to finding out if he can come back.
And nothing prevents them from re-signing Hill and drafting or signing another guy at the same time.
The pay-off is big if he comes back. That arm, that accuracy, that level of respect from his team, that level of knowledge of the system and the receivers–if you can put yourself in a situation where you lose nothing seeing if that is all still intact? I don’t see any good reason to not do it.
znModeratorOh, I see.
You knew I was going to post this in the other thread, so you just HAD to jump on the board and beat me to it, is that it?
You know what they say.
The early bird may get the worm, but the 2nd mouse gets the cheese.
That’s not relevant to our situation of course but I couldn’t think of anything that was.
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August 28, 2014 at 6:51 pm in reply to: I think Sam Bradford will renegotiate his deal with Rams #5414znModeratorOh, OK.
I could see a restructuring that gave him another year in 2016, then. But, I still think the Rams have to get another QB to compete with him, because Sam is the definition of injury-prone at this point.
Let’s say the Rams did draft a QB in the 1st round or 2nd round next year. OK, he could be the future, or he could be one of the many in a line of unsuccessful relatively high QB picks. I doubt the Rams are going to pick in the top 5 to get the most elite QB next year, so they’ll be rolling dice with a QB who has potential. That young QB competes with Shaun Hill, and if he wins the starting QB spot, you have your future starter. AND, you have Bradford back in 2016 as a backup. Or, if the rookie QB can’t hack it, you have Bradford back as the starter, and you still have a young prospect looking forward who could spell Bradford or maybe eventually replace him. I could live with this scenario. I don’t think some competition is bad here. You can’t rely on Bradford anymore. That’s just the way it is.
I agree though I think it would be sooner than 2016.
All kinds of different points of view on this.
http://theramshuddle.com/topic/doshould-the-rams-cut-bradford/
August 28, 2014 at 5:36 pm in reply to: I think Sam Bradford will renegotiate his deal with Rams #5407znModeratorDoes Sam have another year on his contract after this year? I thought this was it. I’m confused.
He’s under contract for 2015.
The old CBA let people sign 6 year deals.
August 28, 2014 at 4:56 pm in reply to: I think Sam Bradford will renegotiate his deal with Rams #5402znModeratorI’d be shocked if he didn’t. He’s made millions already. No reason for him not to give the Rams a more reasonable contract until he can prove that he can stay healthy for a whole season and play to a high level. I think he wants to succeed on the field in a Rams uniform. He’s not going to ge big money from any other team.
Don’t be surprised if he re-does his deal and stays with this team.Grits
I happen to agree.
In contrast, many think that given his injury history, he’s not worth the chance and it’s time to move on.
It’s an issue that will stay open for a while, I think.
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znModeratorThe Daily Show’s take on the Sam shower non-issue
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/xkrp7t/sam-s-scrub?xrs=synd_facebook_082814_tds_44
znModeratorthe RAMS need to stop to the run and they haven’t in years.
In point of fact, they have. Starting with the Indy game last year and for the rest of the season after that. That includes a game each against SF and Seattle. If you take the avg. numbers from that stretch of games and do them across 16 games, Rams would have been first both in rushing yards allowed and yards per attempt.
So the question is, who shows up. This summer’s run defense or last year’s run defense from the 2nd half of the season.
znModerator—————-
Nah. Sometimes you ‘ignore it’
but sometimes its ok to
Criticize it.Like in the article, Bernie
didnt ‘ignore’ Fisher’s reaction –
he criticized it.w
v
znModeratorWell, I didn’t read any comments on Davis on any other board, so I don’t know what they’re saying, but as long as we’re discussing him, I’m skeptical too. People just see different things in unproven players. Opinions differ.
I think everyone knows his history, both before the Rams and with the Rams. (His numbers in college don’t mean much to me because that’s all just more effects of the college spread…doesn’t mean it translates to the NFL.) I am of the school that until he proves it to me, I am a doubter.
The last back-up prospect some people liked a lot, Thaddeus Lewis, just got cut by Buffalo. Yet there are still people who swear Lewis can play, because they liked him in some Rams pre-season games.
To me, seeing Davis in one half of a pre-season game in 2014 where he wasn’t as bad as last summer is not enough yet to annoint him. And to me, he didn’t show enough in 2012 to have great hope in him.
Maybe people here can talk me into it. We;ll see.
August 27, 2014 at 11:07 pm in reply to: ESPN reports on showering habits of Rams' Michael Sam #5340znModeratorThe reporter should see one of those counselors that tells you how to think and helps you get over things. They do have counseling for that?
Yes, they’re called “parents.”
Not sure that process works for a professional in their early 30s.
znModeratorYesterday I listened to a Lions fan call into SiriusXM and say they should offer up Stafford for Hill – he claimed that Hill was much more productive “when it mattered.” Well, that’s funny stuff. But he was not really bad with Niners. He was pretty productive. Not flashy or real strong armed but pretty smart, I thought, as a QB. I’m looking forward to seeing how this plays out.
Martz had a couple of interesting points, but one that stood out was that Hill is not a practice player, he’s a gamer.
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August 27, 2014 at 9:08 pm in reply to: Strauss: Bradford's injury is a turning point for franchise #5332znModeratorI count myself among those who think the Rams can win with Miller.
Was that a slip? Or a joke?
Cause of course the Rams qb is not Miller…it’s Chandler. Or it has been anyway ever since Ferragamo went down.
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