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znModeratorWhy do YOU think he invaded?
From what I am piecing together (in between actually trying to get work done for my real-world job)? Putin believes in re-acquring the former Soviet empire. The longer he waits on the Ukraine, the deeper its ties to NATO. Now he can act like he believes NATO is a threat to him, but that’s obviously nonsense–NATO was never going to launch an aggressive war against Russia. But NATO solidarity and membership can limit Russian imperial ambitions in the region.
This is not an exact analogy but a proximate one–Ukraine in a lot of ways is to Putin what the Sandinistas were to Reagon.
His whole thing about Ukraine not really being a nation gives it away. He’s saying, you stole from us, we’re just taking it back. (Once again my ethnic history is that I am Ukrainian…my grandparents could barely speak English…and this idea that Ukraine has no authentic national history is ludicrous.)
Anyway. It is beyond crazy that we have a situation in Europe where a massive global power actually launches a WW2 style invasion of a neighboring state. It happened with Serbia in relation to its neigboring states but that was of course on a smaller scale so isn’t the “wtf” level news that this is. It’s a similar dynamic, though–the break up of Yugoslavia led to aggressive military conflicts. This is the same thing, the break up of the USSR, but just on a bigger scale.
znModeratorUkraine: Foreign Intervention, Copious Propaganda, Lies and the Rise of Neo-Nazis
The situation in 2022 is different. The right wing in Ukraine has 1 seat in a 450 member national legislature. From everything I have seen, the line about neo-nazis and fascists being the driving force or even a significant presence in the Ukrainian political world of the 2020s does not have any substance to it.
znModeratorEveryone talks about the star-studded roster that the Los Angeles Rams assembled en route to their Super Bowl title, but that team was much more than a collection of big names. In the Super Bowl alone, they got contributions out of Brycen Hopkins, Nick Scott, Darious Williams, A’Shawn Robinson, Greg Gaines and Ernest Jones.
Of course, Matthew Stafford, Jalen Ramsey, Aaron Donald, Von Miller, Cooper Kupp and Odell Beckham Jr. helped the Rams get to the big game, but throughout the season, their excellent depth was on full display.
Gaines, Scott, Hopkins, Kupp, David Edwards, Rob Havenstein, Tyler Higbee and Jordan Fuller were all drafted outside the first round, showing how much value there is in the mid-to-late rounds of the draft. Daniel Jeremiah of NFL Network mentioned exactly that during his pre-draft conference call, pointing out how the Rams are an example of the importance of depth in a draft class.
…
“So I think a lot of people have kind of looked at the top of this draft and have their thoughts about whether or not it stacks up with previous years, but I would just say kind of as I’m going through this process and watching all these guys and then paying attention through the postseason and seeing the Rams win the Super Bowl, I think the discussion about the Rams being a superstar team is obviously very valid, but I think if you look at that team and who some of their key players are and the home run picks they’ve had outside the first round to help really build the nucleus of that team, it shows you the importance of depth in a draft,” Jeremiah said. “I think this is a really good depth draft, especially when you get into the second, third, fourth round. There’s a lot of quality there, a lot of starters.”
znModeratorIt seems far more likely to me that Russia is worried about Ukraine emerging as a competitor in the European natural gas market. Ukraine’s emergence as a significant supplier of natural gas would come at Russia’s expense. And if Russia is the major supplier of gas, it gives them leverage over Europe. If Europe has choices among suppliers, it gives them leverage over Russia. That, to me, makes the most sense of anything I’ve seen.
You posted an article I had to delete because it was just a pages long mess of code, to the point of unreadable. I suggested you clean it up first by posting it in a place that strips the code first. Maybe that’s a lot of work? Or for whatever reason. Either way, if you want, post the link and I will clean up the article.
The new huddle software has that drawback. If an article is crazy with code, you get stuck with it,.
znModeratorI ain’t arguing uniforms with anyone but nothing can beat this lol that old school shit for life! 💙💛 pic.twitter.com/yuQ9xAL8E6
— C (@Chrispyyy_95) February 27, 2022
znModerator— Siege (@CJRamClip) February 27, 2022
znModeratorThis article basically sums up the wv view.
Whether or not nazis or neo-nazis are involved in Ukrainian government and policies (which is demonstrably false) goes to the heart of the Putin narrative, which some on the left (speaking as a leftist) are (at least initially) buying into.
I think that article has several interesting points. With this group of posters here, we’re going to have a great collection of articles. People are better off reading this thread then virtually any other source on the net.
But I do think that article doesn’t really address a key issue. Ukraine has a right to national indepdendence and Russsia has no right to forcefully deny that through military invasion. Sometimes things are as simple as that.
Speaking as someone who opposed virtually every war the USA has fought in in his lifetime.
znModeratorJohn Collins@Logically_JCMarjorie Taylor Greene is what happens when the Children of the Corn get older.
znModeratorZac Stevens@ZacStevensDNVRThe Rams named Von Miller the Postseason Performer of the Year. In 4 games, Von had 4 sacks, 6 QB hits, 6 TFLs, 14 tackles 1 forced fumble & 1 fumble recovery. He was vintage playoff Von.
znModeratorMax Berger @maxberger
I’m not sure most American voters realize the heroic Ukrainian president everyone is praising is the exact same guy Donald Trump was impeached for trying to extort.
znModeratorEvery Cooper Kupp TD of the 2021 Season
znModeratorCooper Kupp: 24 forced missed tackles on receptions this season
Most among all WRs pic.twitter.com/m1Hh8aUdAK
— PFF Fantasy Football (@PFF_Fantasy) February 26, 2022
znModeratorhas reported, between December 6, 2021, and January 6, 2022, the New York Times ran 228 articles that refer to Ukraine, but none of them reference the pro-Nazi elements in Ukraine’s politics or government.
That is quite possibly becase there are no pro-Nazi elements in Ukraine’s government. The idea that there are is a leftover from 2014-15. I quote something I posted earlier:
Ukraine has a democratically elected centrist government, with a Russian-speaking president of Jewish descent, and cabinet ministers with Armenian, Jewish, Russian, and Ukrainian ancestry.In the last parliamentary election in 2019, the far-right parties joined in a bloc, but still couldn’t even get half the five percent of votes required for official party status. They hold a single seat as an independent in the parliament of 450
Ukraine’s far right has some representation in local governments and conducts attention-hungry demonstrations, but has little real political influence.
Then of course there’s the question whether or not an authoritarian oligarchy king like Putin is the white horse needed to bring democracy to the world. So I am not persuaded by reports that are running the old narrative about 2014/15 and neo-Nazis in the Ukraine, when that is not the current Ukrainian situation. Even if it were true, and the info I see says it’s not, that is no excuse for an invasion anyway.
znModeratorTo state the obvious: there are a lot of competing versions of events in Ukraine right now
Just someone from a different discussion group:
Michael ZajacUkraine has a democratically elected centrist government, with a Russian-speaking president of Jewish descent, and cabinet ministers with Armenian, Jewish, Russian, and Ukrainian ancestry.In the last parliamentary election in 2019, the far-right parties joined in a bloc, but still couldn’t even get half the five percent of votes required for official party status. They hold a single seat as an independent in the parliament of 450
Ukraine’s far right has some representation in local governments and conducts attention-hungry demonstrations, but has little real political influence. One or two volunteer battalions have a reputation as haven for the far right, but they are organized around Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians who literally defended their own home towns from Russian and Russian proxy forces, so they don’t even fit the stereotype pushed by Russian war propaganda.
Ukraine’s government is significantly farther from fascist than most of Europe or the Russian Federation.</p>
February 26, 2022 at 11:34 am in reply to: annual coaches leave, coaches replaced thread…2022 #136997
znModeratorThe Rams still haven’t made their Liam Coen hire official, but Coen said last night that this is an opportunity he “could not pass up” https://t.co/SBKs2aI4XI
— Cameron DaSilva (@camdasilva) February 26, 2022
znModeratorOne narrative I’ve heard (and which holds up for me) is that earlier in the season, McV dropped all the motion, play action, jet sweeps, and stuff, and basically just relied on Stafford throwing the ball. Then of course some of the Rams worst losses came when the OL couldn’t hold up against a strong DL. I think that after those losses, McV went back to a lot of his previous offensive habits and starting relying more on play action and those general kinds of Goff-Rams type plays.
OBJ and Miller were big too. Morris settling in and getting a better command of the D also helped. Relying more on Michel helped.
On Michel. The 3 losses in a row were games 9 through 11. From game 1 to 11, Michel had 79 carries for the season, or about 11 per game (but more often than not less that 11). In games 12-17, he had 129 carries, or 21.5 carries per game. So he basically doubled his run load.
znModeratorThis is along the same lines. 86 footnotes.
I have to admit I still don’t buy it. From what I have read, the 2014/15 situation is not the Ukraine of 2022.
And even if the old situation held in the present, that in itself is no justification for an invasion. Not only is it no justification, it’s very very likely not even the actual reason.
To me, this is no more explainable or defensible than the American invasion of Iraq. And if anything in some respects, using the kind of criteria used to assess Putin’s invasion, Iraq deserved it more–if that is you accept those kinds of justifications.
Zooey, I had to delete that article because of the formatting nightmare it is. It’s just one huge unreadable hot mess. It’s fixable though. When you post it again here’s what I suggest. Do not post it straight into the post box here. Post it first in a word processor like word or in your email. Doing that will strip out a lot of the intrusive formatting that gets copied when we use this new, updated version of the huddle. Then after it has been stripped out that way, post it here.
znModeratorMcVay says no to TV. He and Amazon were going to meet next week, and Amazon may have gone as high as five years and $100M, according to sources. Rams, obviously, have stepped up with a raise from his reported $8.5M. … On to the next one …. https://t.co/lcRtFjtWcr
— Andrew Marchand (@AndrewMarchand) February 26, 2022
znModeratorJourdan Rodrigue@JourdanRodrigueDaniel Jeremiah opens his NFL draft call today in part by by touting the homegrown depth behind star players on Rams’ roster and citing depth of position in this year’s overall draft class among its defining qualities.
znModeratorA US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
I dont accept that as the actual history. I know some circles are promoting that take. But I don’t think the facts support them.
znModeratorPutin’s invasion of Ukraine, explained
Putin declared a “special military operation” in Ukraine. Now, Europe is witnessing its first major war in decades.
By Jen Kirby and Jonathan Guyer Updated Feb 25, 2022, 8:36am EST
* https://www.vox.com/2022/2/23/22948534/russia-ukraine-war-putin-explosions-invasion-explained
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Russian troops are closing in on Kyiv, threatening a city of nearly 3 million people as Russia’s war against Ukraine extends into its second day.
In the early morning hours on Friday, Russian airstrikes targeted Kyiv as Russian forces began entering the capital. Ukrainian officials called on residents to “make Molotov cocktails,” to defend against the invasion. United States government officials have warned that Kyiv may fall soon, as Moscow moves into Kyiv with the goal of regime change.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, speaking earlier on Thursday, said Ukraine was alone in defending itself. “Who else wants to fight with us?” he said. “Honestly, I don’t see anyone.” He continued to call on Europe, and the West, to impose harsher penalties on Russia, and told Moscow that Ukraine was ready for negotiations to “stop people from dying.”
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that Russia would not negotiate a settlement unless Ukraine puts down arms, setting up the possibility of a bloody battle for Ukraine’s capital city.
After months of threats, Russia is now waging a full-out war on Ukraine. It began in the early morning hours of Thursday, local time, when Russian President Vladimir Putin announced he was launching a “special military operation” in Ukraine, a move that was followed up by reports of explosions around cities, including Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine and the capital Kyiv.
The Ukrainian foreign minister confirmed soon after that “Putin has just launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Peaceful Ukrainian cities are under strike.” By the afternoon in Ukraine, Russian troops and tanks had entered the country on three fronts. According to the Pentagon, Russia launched more than 100 missiles into Ukraine, an opening salvo that defense officials said may be leading up to full-on effort to take the capital of Kyiv. At least 137 Ukrainians have been killed so far, Zelensky said Thursday.
Putin’s attempt to redraw the map of Europe could lead to the most devastating conflict on the continent since World War II. It could cost thousands of civilian lives and create hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing the violence in Ukraine. About 100,000 Ukrainians have fled so far, according to a United Nations estimate.
Putin’s announcement came while the United Nations Security Council held a special session in
New York on the Ukraine crisis, and bombing began shortly thereafter, according to news reports. In his address, Putin claimed “to defend people who for eight years are suffering persecution and genocide by the Kyiv regime,” a reference to a false claim about the government in Ukraine. Putin claimed that the Russian military seeks “demilitarization and denazification” but not occupation. He demanded Ukraine lay down its weapons or be “responsible for bloodshed.”
The tension over Ukraine has been building for months but escalated quickly this week when, on Monday, Putin delivered an hour-long combative speech that essentially denied Ukrainian statehood. He recognized the independence of two breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine where Moscow has backed a separatist rebellion since 2014 and sent so-called peacekeeping forces into the region. As experts said, that was likely just the beginning, setting the stage for a much larger conflict.
Putin’s escalation comes after the United States warned, again and again, that a larger invasion by Putin was imminent, and after the US and its European allies imposed significant — but far from all-encompassing — sanctions on Moscow. On Thursday, the US imposed the harshest penalties yet on Russia, including on the country’s largest banks.
Putin’s “Nazi” rhetoric reveals his terrifying war aims in Ukraine
“President Putin has chosen a premeditated war that will bring a catastrophic loss of life and human suffering,” President Joe Biden said in a statement Wednesday, soon after Russia began its strike. “Russia alone is responsible for the death and destruction this attack will bring, and the United States and its Allies and partners will respond in a united and decisive way. The world will hold Russia accountable.” Secretary of State Antony Blinken told ABC News that he’s “convinced” Putin is attempting to overthrow the Ukrainian government.
The United States imposed the toughest financial sanctions ever on Russia, and other allies joined them in putting harsh penalties on Russia. On Friday, the European Union said it would directly sanction Putin and Lavrov.
But this is all unlikely to stop Russia from waging its campaign in Ukraine, leaving Ukraine — and the world — is in a perilous and unpredictable moment.
Hours before Putin’s announcement of an invasion, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky delivered an impassioned speech against war, one directed to a Russian audience, as a final plea: “War takes away guarantees for everyone,” he said. “No one will have any kind of guarantees of security. And who will suffer from that the most? People.”
Ukraine is under siege
We are still learning the extent of Putin’s bombardment as his war unfolds. As of Friday, Russian troops had reportedly entered the outskirts of Kyiv after hours of Russian airstrikes. US officials have warned Kyiv may soon fall — with little clarity about what may come next.
Ukrainian leaders believe political assassinations appear to be a real possibility. “According to the available intelligence, the enemy marked me as a target No. 1 and my family as the target No. 2,” said Zelensky, speaking in a T-shirt on Thursday night.
Reports of fighting in the city of Kharkiv, in the east, and in other parts of Ukraine continued on Friday.
In the early hours of the offensive, Russians had reportedly entered Ukraine from the north, south, and east, “assaulting by land, sea and air,” according to Reuters. Ukrainians are fleeing major cities, and residents are taking shelter underground, in subways.
Russia seized the decommissioned Chernobyl nuclear plant 80 miles north of the Ukrainian capital, the site of the 1986 nuclear disaster. The International Atomic Energy Agency is monitoring developments there “with grave concern.”
At Antonov International Airport, a global cargo hub located about 16 miles outside of Kyiv, Russian paratroops and Ukrainian forces engaged in a three-hour firefight. The Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs says the military has regained control. The Pentagon estimates that Russia has fired more than 160 ballistic missiles into Ukraine.
Why is Putin attacking Ukraine? He told us.
“This is a deliberate, cold-blooded, and long-planned invasion. Russia is using force to try to rewrite history,” NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told reporters. The alliance met today to plan for ways to strengthen the defense of neighboring NATO countries Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and Poland.
Russia has remained defiant and insists that is not actually launching a full-scale war.
The roots of the current crisis grew from the breakup of the Soviet Union
Over the last few months, Putin had amassed close to 190,000 troops near the Ukrainian border, a force that military analysts said was clearly prepared and ready to launch an invasion.
Such an invasion would — and does — contravene security agreements the Soviet Union made upon its breakup in the early ’90s. At the time, Ukraine, a former Soviet republic, had the third-largest atomic arsenal in the world. The US and Russia worked with Ukraine to denuclearize the country, and in a series of diplomatic agreements, Kyiv gave its hundreds of nuclear warheads back to Russia in exchange for security assurances that protected it from a potential Russian attack.
But the very premise of a post-Soviet Europe is also helping to fuel today’s conflict. Putin has been fixated on reclaiming some semblance of empire, lost with the fall of the Soviet Union. Ukraine is central to this vision. Putin has said Ukrainians and Russians “were one people — a single whole,” or at least would be if not for the meddling from outside forces (as in, the West) that has created a “wall” between the two.
“It’s not about Russia. It’s about Putin”: An expert explains Putin’s endgame in Ukraine
Last year, Russia presented the US with a list of demands, some of which were nonstarters for the United States and its allies in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). Putin demanded that NATO stop its eastward expansion and deny membership to Ukraine, and also made other demands for “security guarantees” around NATO.The prospect of Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO has antagonized Putin at least since President George W. Bush expressed support for the idea in 2008. “That was a real mistake,” Steven Pifer, who from 1998 to 2000 was ambassador to Ukraine under President Bill Clinton, told Vox in January. “It drove the Russians nuts. It created expectations in Ukraine and Georgia, which then were never met. And so that just made that whole issue of enlargement a complicated one.”
Ukrainian firefighters arrive to rescue civilians after an airstrike hit an apartment complex in Chuhuiv, Ukraine, on February 24. Wolfgang Schwan/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images
Ukraine is the fourth-largest recipient of military funding from the US, and the intelligence cooperation between the two countries has deepened in response to threats from Russia. But Ukraine isn’t joining NATO in the near future, and Biden has said as much. Still, Moscow’s demand was largely seen as a non-starter by the West, as NATO’s open-door policy says sovereign countries can choose their own security alliances.Though Putin has continued to tout the threat of NATO, his speech on Monday showed that his obsession with Ukraine goes far beyond that. He does not see the government in Ukraine as legitimate.
“Ukraine is not just a neighboring country for us. It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture and spiritual space,” he said, per the Kremlin’s official translation. “Since time immemorial, the people living in the south-west of what has historically been Russian land have called themselves Russians.”
The two countries do have historical and cultural ties, but as Vox’s Zack Beauchamp explained, Putin’s “basic claim — that there is no historical Ukrainian nation worthy of present-day sovereignty — is demonstrably false.”
As experts noted, it is difficult to square Putin’s speech — plus a 2021 essay he penned, and other statements he’s made — with any sort of realistic diplomatic outcome to avert conflict. It was, essentially, a confession that this wasn’t really about NATO, said Dan Baer, the acting director of the Europe Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a former ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. “It was about that he doesn’t think Ukraine has a right to exist as a free country,” he said before Putin’s escalation Wednesday night.
This is the culmination of eight years of tensions
This isn’t the first time Russia has attacked Ukraine. In 2014, Russia annexed the Crimean Peninsula and invaded eastern Ukraine and backed Russia separatists in the eastern Donbas region. That conflict has killed more than 14,000 people to date.
Russia’s assault grew out of mass protests in Ukraine that toppled the country’s pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych, which began over his abandonment of a trade agreement with the European Union. US diplomats visited the demonstrations, in symbolic gestures that further agitated Putin.
President Barack Obama, hesitant to escalate tensions with Russia any further, was slow to mobilize a diplomatic response in Europe and did not immediately provide Ukrainians with offensive weapons.
“A lot of us were really appalled that not more was done for the violation of that [post-Soviet] agreement,” said Ian Kelly, a career diplomat who served as ambassador to Georgia from 2015 to 2018. “It just basically showed that if you have nuclear weapons” — as Russia does — “you’re inoculated against strong measures by the international community.”
Since then, corruption has persisted in the Ukrainian government, and the country ranks in the bottom third of the watchdog group Transparency International’s index.
Ukraine’s far-right presence has grown and become somewhat normalized, and there are government-aligned fascist militias in the country. But Moscow has drawn out those issues to advance false claims about genocide and other attacks on civilians as a way to legitimize the separatist movement in eastern Ukraine and to create a pretext for invasion. In his prerecorded speech shared on the eve of the bombardment of Ukraine, Putin said he sought the “de-nazifacation” of Ukraine.
To be clear: The Ukrainian government is not a Nazi regime and has not been co-opted by the far right. Zelensky is Jewish; he speaks proudly of how his Jewish grandfather fought against Hitler’s army.
Ukrainian servicemen get ready to repel an attack in Ukraine’s Luhansk region on February 24. Anatolii Stepanov/AFP via Getty Images
Yet, days earlier, Putin used these sorts of claims as part of his explanation for recognizing as independent the so-called Luhansk People’s Republic and the Donetsk People’s Republic, the two territories in eastern Ukraine where he has backed separatists since 2014. “Announcing the decisions taken today, I am confident in the support of the citizens of Russia. Of all the patriotic forces of the country,” Putin said before moving troops into the regions for “peacekeeping” purposes.At the time, most experts Vox spoke to said that looked like the beginning, not the end, of Russia’s incursion into Ukraine.
“In Russia, [it] provides the political-legal basis for the formal introduction of Russian forces, which they’ve already decided to do,” Michael Kofman, research director in the Russia studies program at CNA, a research organization in Arlington, Virginia, said at the time. “Secondarily, it provides the legal local basis for Russian use force in defense of these independent Republic’s Russians citizens there. It’s basically political theater.”
It set “the stage for the next steps,” he added. Wednesday, those next steps became clear.
How the rest of the world is responding
The United States and its allies around the world have condemned Russia’s invasion on Ukraine. Germany’s Chancellor Olaf Scholz called it a “dark day for Europe.”
“The events of last night mark a turning point in the history of Europe,” said French President Emmanuel Macron.
All leaders have vowed consequences for Russia. As President Biden said: “The world will hold Russia accountable.”
Biden announced Thursday afternoon that the United States will impose sanctions on Russian financial institutions, including cutting off Russia’s largest banks from the US financial system, and on Russian elites in President Vladimir Putin’s inner circle. America will also implement export controls on certain technologies. Along with penalties from the United Kingdom and Europe, these are the “massive” penalties the West had been warning Putin about.
The United States has said it will not involve troops in any Ukrainian conflict, though the US has shored up its presence on NATO’s eastern flank. On Thursday, the Pentagon said it would send 7,000 additional troops to Germany. Biden had previously said that the US will continue to provide defensive support for Ukraine, and some are calling for the US and its partners to provide more lethal aid to the largely outmatched Ukrainian army.
Russia largely knows that the US and its partners to not want to commit themselves military, and, early Thursday as he launched his invasion, he offered an ominous warning as he touted Russia’s nuclear arsenal: “There should be no doubt that any potential aggressor will face defeat and ominous consequences should it directly attack our country.”
NATO has vowed to protect its members from any Russian aggression. Experts said NATO also had other options, including activating the NATO Response Force, a 50,000 troop unit modernized after the 2014 Crimea invasion.
Yet these are largely defensive measures — which means most of the punishment against Russia will come in the form of sanctions. Thursday’s announced sanctions didn’t include some of the most dramatic options, like cutting Russia off from Swift, the electronic messaging service that allows entities to communicate about global financial transactions, and targeting Russia’s energy sector. But the penalties are still some of the harshest sanctions ever directed at Russia or a major power like it. That will come with potential costs to the global economy, and especially to Europe and the United States. The price of oil spiked to more than $100 per barrel on Thursday before coming back down.
“This is going to impose severe cost on the Russian economy, both immediately and over time,” Biden said while announcing the sanctions. “We have purposefully designed these sanctions to maximize a long-term impact on Russia and to minimize the impact on the United States and our allies.”
znModeratorPutin says he will ‘denazify’ Ukraine. Here’s the history behind that claim.
Russian President Vladimir Putin invoked the Nazis on Thursday when he announced his decision to launch a large-scale military operation in Ukraine.The rhetoric around fighting fascism resonates deeply in Russia, which made tremendous sacrifices battling Nazi Germany in World War II. Critics say that Putin is exploiting the trauma of the war and twisting history for his own interests.In his narrative, the West overlooked the role the Soviet Union, Russia’s predecessor state, played in the fight. In the war’s aftermath, the United States and other Western nations formed the NATO military alliance as a bulwark against the Soviet Union.
Now, Putin sees NATO as an existential threat — and Ukraine’s bid for membership as a red line for Russia’s security.The irony now, Snyder said, is that Putin appears to be “fighting a war the way that actual Nazis did,” invading neighbors on the pretext that their borders are irrelevant.But Putin’s attempt to recast Ukraine’s government as fascist drew widespread condemnation Thursday, including from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who is both Jewish and had family members die in the Holocaust.
Three of Zelensky’s great uncles were executed as part of the German-led genocide of European Jews during the war, the president said on a trip to Jerusalem in 2020. His grandfather, who was the brother of those killed, survived.“Forty years later, his grandson became president,” Zelenksy said in an address.>The Ukrainian leader also fired back at Putin’s Nazi claim Thursday, saying on Twitter that Russia had attacked Ukraine just “as Nazi Germany did.”
znModeratorRussian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Friday repeated Russian President Vladimir Putin’s odd claim that Putin’s “decision on the operation to demilitarize and de-Nazify Ukraine was made so that, freed from this oppression, Ukrainians could freely determine their own future.” Ukraine freely elected a Jewish president, Volodymyr Zelensky, in a 2019 landslide.
Ukraine’s Jewish community is not happy with the “de-Nazify” rheoric. Kyiv Chief Rabbi Yonatan Markovitch told Haaretz he has no idea what Putin is talking about, and anti-Semitic “incidents are very rare and the government takes care of them.” Putin is “totally nuts,” Ilya, a Jewish businessman in Kyiv, told Haaretz. “The Jews of Ukraine are an integral part of Ukrainian society and we never faced Nazism here, or fascism, and we feel safe in Ukraine. We don’t feel safe when Russia says there are Nazis here.”
This is not a new claim by Putin and his Russian allies, though. And Zelenksy tried to head it off on Wednesday, hours before Putin launched his invasion. “You are told we are Nazis, but how can a people support Nazis that gave more than 8 million lives for the victory over Nazism? How can I be a Nazi?” he asked Russia. “Tell my grandpa, who went through the whole war in the infantry of the Soviet Army and died as a colonel in independent Ukraine.”
So, what does Putin mean by “de-Nazify?” Stephen Colbert asked journalist and Russia specialist Julia Ioffe on Thursday’s Late Show. “Is he speaking in a vocabulary that is for, you know, domestic consumption, that we don’t understand?”
Ioffe said that when Ukrainians protesters ousted a pro-Kremlin president from Kyiv’s Maidan square in 2014, “there was a very active right-wing nationalist, sometimes neo-Nazi, contingent, but it was a minority on the Maidan. And Russian propaganda took that — they often just take like a little bit of truth and spin it into this, you know, cotton candy of lies.” Russian state TV is saying the same thing eight years later, she added, and “I think there are a lot of Russians, especially those who watch state TV, who think it is a country run by Nazis, even though it has a Jewish president.”
But the Nazis are a powerful enemy in the imagination of all former Soviet regions, including Ukraine, and Ukraine has been throwing the Nazi label back at Putin, too.
znModeratorSo as far as I can gather, Ukraine is an inherently unstable country with a Russian-speaking eastern side, and a western side that speaks something else. They’ve had a series of corrupt, authoritarian grifters run the country as it vacillates between between pro-Russian and pro-western sympathies, and when the people started protesting against the corruption in 2014, the movement was co-opted by nazi sympathizers who took control.
From my admittedly quick reading that’s not the current Ukraine.
And–nothing you’re saying, even it actually is a valid description of the current Ukraine, amounts to a motive for an invasion. It just looks to me like the Russians has no more in the way of defensible motives than the USA had when invading Iraq.
BTW I am Ukrainian. My grandparents joined a wave of immigration in the 1930s that made Manitoba, Canada the world’s 2nd Ukraine. My grandparents could barely speak English. I mention this in passing just as an “interesting fact.” I don’t feel any personal or emotional connection to the Canadian Ukrainian community, let alone to the Ukraine itself. Everything I am saying on this issue just reflects my efforts to understand the event.
znModeratorRussian tennis player Andrey Rublev writes "No war please" on the camera following his advancement to the final in Dubai. pic.twitter.com/GQe8d01rTd
— TSN (@TSN_Sports) February 25, 2022
znModeratorCooper Kupp never quits on a play. Btw Woods and Higbee blocking here are the reasons why this Rams teams is so great. https://t.co/lq4QXIrQG3
— Certified Champs 🐏 (@_KevMac100) February 25, 2022
znModeratorAfter starring at @UCLAFootball with Jackie Robinson, Kenny Washington was blocked from playing in the @NFL for 6 years.
In 1946, he became the 1st Black player to sign an NFL contract in the post-World War II era with @RamsNFL.https://t.co/Koe9PnQtfH | #BlackHistoryMonth pic.twitter.com/Kn8hXguLgX
— Troy Vincent, Sr. (@TroyVincentSr) February 24, 2022
February 25, 2022 at 1:39 am in reply to: the really big articles & longer vids on the super bowl #136930
znModerator
znModeratorAccording to the LA Times, the Rams are in negotiations to buy a 34-acre site in Woodland Hills, where they would build their new facility and headquarters https://t.co/7Zvx1RXq3G
— Cameron DaSilva (@camdasilva) February 24, 2022
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Rams are looking to buy an enormous dead mall in Warner Center. Big doings in the Valley @BillShaikin @LATimesfarmer https://t.co/EaX7cYMroV
— Roger Vincent (@rogervincent) February 24, 2022
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