When Trump wins

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  • This topic has 36 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by bnw.
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  • #55228
    bnw
    Blocked

    I can see Obama getting us into a war with Russia during the interim.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #55234
    wv
    Participant

    I can see Obama getting us into a war with Russia during the interim.

    —————

    I can not see that.

    The US does not pick on the big boys.

    w
    v

    #55240
    bnw
    Blocked

    I can see Obama getting us into a war with Russia during the interim.

    —————

    I can not see that.

    The US does not pick on the big boys.

    w
    v

    The US has been picking on Russia since before the US backed coup in the Ukraine. Now Syria.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #55254
    TSRF
    Participant

    War with a nuclear armed Russia is almost unthinkable, but, if the options are us at war with Russia and Obama president, or Trump as president, I pick Obama and war with Russia.

    OK, not really because if we were ever in a shooting war with Russia, the chances become very high that a nuclear exchange would result, meaning the end of the world as we know it (same as a Trump win, but with more glowing).

    #55285
    PA Ram
    Participant

    I actually believe that the United States and Russia are very close to war.

    At this point I’d be more surprised if they didn’t have some sort of conflict. Whether it’s the Ukraine, missile shields in Europe or the war in Syria, there are so many hot spots right now, I can’t imagine those plates keep spinning.

    Add to that the cyberattacks and the United States vow to respond, the personal animosity between Putin and Clinton, and you have a recipe for conflict.

    I think it’s going to happen. How long it goes, how limited it will be, I don’t know.

    And I hope I’m wrong.

    But beyond that–when Trump loses the election I wouldn’t be surprised to see white nationalists try to start a race war here or create some sort of anarchy.

    I try to be the optimist(except with the Rams, of course)but I think there are some dark times ahead.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #55287
    Zooey
    Moderator

    I actually believe that the United States and Russia are very close to war.

    At this point I’d be more surprised if they didn’t have some sort of conflict. Whether it’s the Ukraine, missile shields in Europe or the war in Syria, there are so many hot spots right now, I can’t imagine those plates keep spinning.

    Add to that the cyberattacks and the United States vow to respond, the personal animosity between Putin and Clinton, and you have a recipe for conflict.

    I think it’s going to happen. How long it goes, how limited it will be, I don’t know.

    And I hope I’m wrong.

    But beyond that–when Trump loses the election I wouldn’t be surprised to see white nationalists try to start a race war here or create some sort of anarchy.

    I try to be the optimist(except with the Rams, of course)but I think there are some dark times ahead.

    I have read nothing on the Russia Us relationship, though I know enough to know that the situation is testy. I have no understanding of how testy, or exactly what the disputes are – I am sure the issues are much deeper than Syria and Ukaraine.

    The Trump supporters do worry me quite a lot. They are heavily armed, very angry, and already feel that they are victims of injustice. Add to that the fact that they are already being cultivated to believe that the ONLY thing that could possibly give Clinton the White House is election fraud, and we have a big problem. These are people who, shall we say, don’t rely heavily on the Scientific Method for the construction of their reality.

    #55288
    bnw
    Blocked

    I actually believe that the United States and Russia are very close to war.

    At this point I’d be more surprised if they didn’t have some sort of conflict. Whether it’s the Ukraine, missile shields in Europe or the war in Syria, there are so many hot spots right now, I can’t imagine those plates keep spinning.

    Add to that the cyberattacks and the United States vow to respond, the personal animosity between Putin and Clinton, and you have a recipe for conflict.

    I think it’s going to happen. How long it goes, how limited it will be, I don’t know.

    And I hope I’m wrong.

    But beyond that–when Trump loses the election I wouldn’t be surprised to see white nationalists try to start a race war here or create some sort of anarchy.

    I try to be the optimist(except with the Rams, of course)but I think there are some dark times ahead.

    I have read nothing on the Russia Us relationship, though I know enough to know that the situation is testy. I have no understanding of how testy, or exactly what the disputes are – I am sure the issues are much deeper than Syria and Ukaraine.

    The Trump supporters do worry me quite a lot. They are heavily armed, very angry, and already feel that they are victims of injustice. Add to that the fact that they are already being cultivated to believe that the ONLY thing that could possibly give Clinton the White House is election fraud, and we have a big problem. These are people who, shall we say, don’t rely heavily on the Scientific Method for the construction of their reality.

    Trump supporters do not live in the Matrix.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #55300
    PA Ram
    Participant

    If it had not been for the “Clinton” brand name, overwhelming support from the establishment, and a fair amount of Clinton cultists, she would not have won the nomination. If it were not for Trump–she could not win the White House.

    The Republicans imploded.

    If she does not somehow become someone she is not–a people’s president, over the next four years–and less of a hawk on foreign policy, the democrats will implode in four years. If the Democratic party does not get this–they are toast.

    Both parties have been encased in their little bubbles and things have changed.

    I don’t know if they can save themselves or not.

    The Democrats will have four years to do it.

    The Republican party is in tatters. They don’t have a clue where they go from here.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #55302
    PA Ram
    Participant

    I should have qualified what I just said, however.

    I am talking about the national level. At the state level the Republicans are doing very well.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #55309
    wv
    Participant

    I actually believe that the United States and Russia are very close to war.

    At this point I’d be more surprised if they didn’t have some sort of conflict. Whether it’s the Ukraine, missile shields in Europe or the war in Syria, there are so many hot spots right now, I can’t imagine those plates keep spinning.

    Add to that the cyberattacks and the United States vow to respond, the personal animosity between Putin and Clinton, and you have a recipe for conflict.

    I think it’s going to happen. How long it goes, how limited it will be, I don’t know.

    And I hope I’m wrong.

    But beyond that–when Trump loses the election I wouldn’t be surprised to see white nationalists try to start a race war here or create some sort of anarchy.

    I try to be the optimist(except with the Rams, of course)but I think there are some dark times ahead.

    —————
    Nah, wont happen. The US does not get into shooting wars with
    countries that have large amounts of nukes.

    There will be a lot of nasty talk and agitations and blustering,
    but there wont be any War. Not with Russia.

    w
    v

    #55316
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Not War, war. But it wouldn’t be surprising if Near War happened. Things considered of national “interest” get wasted. American and Russian “puppet” sites.

    #55317
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Trump supporters do not live in the Matrix.

    That’s true.

    They live in a kind of glitchy, proto-matrix, first engineered in Reagan’s first term. So they see the modern matrix for what it is anyway. Just not the spark-flying, out-dated one they live in.

    #55323
    PA Ram
    Participant

    Nah, wont happen. The US does not get into shooting wars with
    countries that have large amounts of nukes.

    There will be a lot of nasty talk and agitations and blustering,
    but there wont be any War. Not with Russia.

    w
    v

    I wish I had your confidence on that, wv.

    What makes you so sure that Russia won’t fire the first shot?

    The United States is getting ready to launch an “unprecedented” cyber attack on Russia.

    I have no certainty that Russia will not get into a shooting war with the United States. I hope it doesn’t happen, of course. But yes–I am concerned.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #55325
    PA Ram
    Participant

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #55326
    bnw
    Blocked

    Trump supporters do not live in the Matrix.

    That’s true.

    They live in a kind of glitchy, proto-matrix, first engineered in Reagan’s first term. So they see the modern matrix for what it is anyway. Just not the spark-flying, out-dated one they live in.

    So freedom is “outdated”? Typical liberal crap that has brought the nation into the gutter.

    • This reply was modified 8 years ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #55338
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Poster One: Trump supporters live in a glitchy “reality.”

    Poster Two: So you’re saying freedom is outdated?

    #55340
    PA Ram
    Participant

    So freedom is “outdated”? Typical liberal crap that has brought the nation into the gutter.

    What freedom have you lost under Obama that you had under Bush or Reagan? Just curious.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #55357
    bnw
    Blocked

    So freedom is “outdated”? Typical liberal crap that has brought the nation into the gutter.

    What freedom have you lost under Obama that you had under Bush or Reagan? Just curious.

    Lost Liberties in the Age of Obama
    — Michael Steven Smith
    http://solidarity-us.org/node/2675

    The Obama Legacy: Decreasing Freedom
    Brian and Garrett Fahy
    http://townhall.com/columnists/brianandgarrettfahy/2014/03/17/the-obama-legacy-decreasing-freedom-n1809313

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #55371
    PA Ram
    Participant

    So freedom is “outdated”? Typical liberal crap that has brought the nation into the gutter.

    What freedom have you lost under Obama that you had under Bush or Reagan? Just curious.

    Lost Liberties in the Age of Obama
    — Michael Steven Smith
    http://solidarity-us.org/node/2675

    The Obama Legacy: Decreasing Freedom
    Brian and Garrett Fahy
    http://townhall.com/columnists/brianandgarrettfahy/2014/03/17/the-obama-legacy-decreasing-freedom-n1809313

    I don’t have time this morning to address everything in those articles, and it wouldn’t do any good. Anything I say would not make a difference anyway because I’ve been through enough of these arguments to know how they go. So I’ll just address a couple of things quickly from my point of view.

    It seems that you are most worked up about, Obamacare, warrentless wiretapping, religious freedom because I suppose you’ve had to hand out condoms or maybe you had to issue a marriage license to a gay couple, I don’t know.

    I guess you don’t care about a gay couple having any freedom to share health benefits that other married couples enjoy, or other married benefits. Well–I disagree with that and many Americans do. When Hillary takes over, don’t forget–the Supreme Court will demand people marry goats and produce demon spawn.

    Warrentless wiretapping has been there through Bush–who, by the way–created this whole terror mess by invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. To pretend Iraq was in great shape when he left is to create a fiction in your mind. Paul Bremer was a disaster. And he is as much responsible for ISIS than any living human being. And he was Bush’s guy. Bush also signed a status of forces agreement regarding troop withdrawl. And if he hadn’t–the only way to keep Iraq stable was to keep troops there forever–in large numbers.

    And Obamacare? Let me know when you find the death panels. A lot of the bad stuff surrrounding Obamacare is just as much a part of the right’s influence on it. They didn’t want it. They wanted something crappy they could point at and say–look–that doesn’t work.

    It is NOT government run. There is no health care government run except for the VA.

    This was about insurance. A public option would have been nice. And single payer is the best answer for everyone.

    Trump’s solution? Buying insurance in a borderless landscape. If you hate your insurance now–just wait. You did not have choice before Obamacare–you had to stick in network–people were denied life saving treatments by insurance companies and there were even lifetime maximums not to mention getting denied coverage for pre-existing conditions.

    In Trump’s plan the companies would all move to the most deregulated state–like Arizona and you’d have plenty of choices–all crap.

    But if that’s the freedom you want–go for it.

    I believe that Rush Limbaugh has been a disaster for America. He has helped to create a “reality” in people’s minds that they are somehow persecuted and all the causes are government causes. Anything that goes wrong is always the fault of government. Climate change is a hoax. Science can’t be trusted. De-regulate everything and let the free market go wild.

    Go back and look at the less regulated eras and show me where it was great for everyone. Show me this utopia.

    I don’t know, bmw.

    I just don’t see it your way.

    Obamacare is not great–I agree. It has problems. But there are good things. Keep the good things.

    Fix it.

    If congress was functional that would happen. But when all you are in office to do is to make a piece of legislation as awful as possible so you can point at it and say: “Look–government doesn’t work.”, you have no business in government.

    Trump is not a solution to anything. He will make government even less functional.

    • This reply was modified 8 years ago by PA Ram.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #55380
    Billy_T
    Participant

    PA,

    I’ve never seen a right-winger answer your question in their own words. In their own words. They can’t come up with any “freedoms” they’ve lost under Obama that they had under Bush. They’ll talk in incredibly generalized terms of End of Days, that Obama has destroyed the country and civilization as we know it, but they can never actually point to anything he’s done that’s different enough from his predecessors to cause this. This is why they have to resort to paranoid lunatics and their Op Eds. They can’t express it themselves.

    Another key here: The massive conflicting thoughts in their heads. They want to blame government for allowing job losses and so on. To them, it’s all the government’s fault that the economy crashed and that corporations ship jobs by the millions overseas. But when it comes to supposed answers to this, they say the government can’t create jobs and it needs to stay out of the way of the private sector. Which of course means the economy would crash more often, more severely, and millions of more jobs would be shipped overseas.

    If the government can be blamed for our travails — and it does bare responsibility — it is in its failure to rein in capitalism, capitalists and an economic system designed to ravage the vast majority of human beings and concentrate wealth, income, access, opportunity and power at the very top. Government is guilty of hurting the people to the degree it doesn’t suppress capitalism’s natural, baked in oppression. Government is guilty to the degree it deregulates, props up, bails out, defends and lets capitalists do as they please. Ironically, the right-wing answer — and Trump’s — is to deregulate even more, slash the taxes of the rich even more, and let them run amok even more than they do already.

    In short, their answer is the opposite of what we need to do, if the goal is higher standards of living for everyone, instead of just the 1%. If the goal is to help make life better for everyone, the Trump way, the GOP way, is the opposite of what we need to do. The Dems don’t have the answers, either. But Trump and the GOP want to aggressively, proactively make things a hell of a lot worse.

    #55382
    bnw
    Blocked

    So freedom is “outdated”? Typical liberal crap that has brought the nation into the gutter.

    What freedom have you lost under Obama that you had under Bush or Reagan? Just curious.

    Lost Liberties in the Age of Obama
    — Michael Steven Smith
    http://solidarity-us.org/node/2675

    The Obama Legacy: Decreasing Freedom
    Brian and Garrett Fahy
    http://townhall.com/columnists/brianandgarrettfahy/2014/03/17/the-obama-legacy-decreasing-freedom-n1809313

    I don’t have time this morning to address everything in those articles, and it wouldn’t do any good. Anything I say would not make a difference anyway because I’ve been through enough of these arguments to know how they go. So I’ll just address a couple of things quickly from my point of view.

    It seems that you are most worked up about, Obamacare, warrentless wiretapping, religious freedom because I suppose you’ve had to hand out condoms or maybe you had to issue a marriage license to a gay couple, I don’t know.

    I guess you don’t care about a gay couple having any freedom to share health benefits that other married couples enjoy, or other married benefits. Well–I disagree with that and many Americans do. When Hillary takes over, don’t forget–the Supreme Court will demand people marry goats and produce demon spawn.

    Warrentless wiretapping has been there through Bush–who, by the way–created this whole terror mess by invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. To pretend Iraq was in great shape when he left is to create a fiction in your mind. Paul Bremer was a disaster. And he is as much responsible for ISIS than any living human being. And he was Bush’s guy. Bush also signed a status of forces agreement regarding troop withdrawl. And if he hadn’t–the only way to keep Iraq stable was to keep troops there forever–in large numbers.

    And Obamacare? Let me know when you find the death panels. A lot of the bad stuff surrrounding Obamacare is just as much a part of the right’s influence on it. They didn’t want it. They wanted something crappy they could point at and say–look–that doesn’t work.

    It is NOT government run. There is no health care government run except for the VA.

    This was about insurance. A public option would have been nice. And single payer is the best answer for everyone.

    Trump’s solution? Buying insurance in a borderless landscape. If you hate your insurance now–just wait. You did not have choice before Obamacare–you had to stick in network–people were denied life saving treatments by insurance companies and there were even lifetime maximums not to mention getting denied coverage for pre-existing conditions.

    In Trump’s plan the companies would all move to the most deregulated state–like Arizona and you’d have plenty of choices–all crap.

    But if that’s the freedom you want–go for it.

    I believe that Rush Limbaugh has been a disaster for America. He has helped to create a “reality” in people’s minds that they are somehow persecuted and all the causes are government causes. Anything that goes wrong is always the fault of government. Climate change is a hoax. Science can’t be trusted. De-regulate everything and let the free market go wild.

    Go back and look at the less regulated eras and show me where it was great for everyone. Show me this utopia.

    I don’t know, bmw.

    I just don’t see it your way.

    Obamacare is not great–I agree. It has problems. But there are good things. Keep the good things.

    Fix it.

    If congress was functional that would happen. But when all you are in office to do is to make a piece of legislation as awful as possible so you can point at it and say: “Look–government doesn’t work.”, you have no business in government.

    Trump is not a solution to anything. He will make government even less functional.

    Your assumptions about me are wrong. Nothing new about that.Now to the points you made in the order received.

    Most americans, myself included, are in favor of gays having the same benefits as conferred through marriage. But calling it marriage is wrong. Marriage is only between a man and a woman. It must be called something else. “goats” and “demon spawn”? Really?

    I have always been against the war on Iraq. I’ve always been against the the assault on liberties post 9/11 in the name of homeland security. We must disagree about who created ISIS since it is indisputable that ISIS formed in the vacuum of removing US forces from Iraq.

    Obamacare is a disaster. Even under the best case scenario it was never viable. Young people will take the risk of the penalty rather than pay the ridiculously high premiums. Exchanges are failing. Denial of care takes different forms. If you need to have it labeled as a “death panel” then that is unlikely to occur though the effect is the same. Trump’s plan to break up the Obamacare monopolies to competition should go a long way towards addressing the skyrocketing premiums and the exchanges failing which is denial of coverage whether you call it that or not.

    I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh. Apparently you do? Climate change as in caused by man made CO2 is not a hoax. IT IS A FRAUD. The collusion between liberal government and scientists on the take has been proven and is an affront to science. We’ve now witnessed numerous instances of dire predictions from these so called scientists that have been proven so very wrong. But the good news is people capable of thought are increasingly tuning out the fraudsters.

    Deregulation? You mean that which Jimmy Carter started? Onerous government regulations are stifling business creation in this country. Especially true of small business creation. We need private sector job growth.

    Trump is a manifestation of the people’s frustration with government overreach in everyday americans lives irrespective of political party affiliation. The establishment wants Hildabeast yet everyday americans (the very people Hildabeast hates) want more freedom, more security, less taxation, no war and a justice system that doesn’t favor the politically connected. The choice is clear.

    • This reply was modified 8 years ago by bnw.
    • This reply was modified 8 years ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #55384
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Also:

    Yes, our government has a long history of suppressing rights. Especially when it comes to people of color, leftist dissidents, women. But it has very little history of suppressing the right of white Christian males, especially “conservatives.” That’s never been its target audience for suppression.

    We know from umpteen surveys that Trump supporters, and Republicans in general, see the system as rigged against white people and for people of color, immigrants, the poor. There is absolutely zero evidence to support this view, but that’s never stopped them from believing it, and Trump has capitalized on this ignorance and sense of eternal victimization.

    Yes, our government is corrupt, often violent, leads the world in jailing its citizens, starts wars at the drop of a hat, commits coups and “regime change” all around the world, engages in “colonialism” for centuries, etc. etc. American government has a history of horrific violence, all too often against very weak countries and peoples, especially brown and black. But, contrary to the views of Trump supporters and Republicans in general, our government has never been in the habit of suppressing rights for the dominant white majority, especially white Christian males with “conservative” beliefs. We’ve never had purges or witch trials conducted against white conservatives. But we have had them conducted against white leftists and millions of people of color.

    Bottom line: The answer to what ails us isn’t to double down on white privilege and power, capitalist privilege and power, male privilege and power, Christian privilege and power. The answer isn’t to double down on the ginormous power of corporate America and the rich in general. The answer is to lift up the bottom and bring down the top, flatten the pyramid and make sure EVERYONE has an equal shot at a good life. Everyone. Trump and the GOP’s answer, OTOH, is to “Make America White Again” and let the earth burn up.

    #55389
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    Most americans, myself included, are in favor of gays having the same benefits as conferred through marriage. But calling it marriage is wrong. Marriage is only between a man and a woman.

    Most Americans have no problem calling the formal union between two homosexuals ‘marriage’. Why do you? What is it about the term marriage as applied to homosexuals that’s offensive?

    #55391
    bnw
    Blocked

    Most americans, myself included, are in favor of gays having the same benefits as conferred through marriage. But calling it marriage is wrong. Marriage is only between a man and a woman.

    Most Americans have no problem calling the formal union between two homosexuals ‘marriage’. Why do you? What is it about the term marriage as applied to homosexuals that’s offensive?

    Most americans don’t even think about it. For most people of faith it is offensive to use the term marriage in that context.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #55392
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Most americans, myself included, are in favor of gays having the same benefits as conferred through marriage. But calling it marriage is wrong. Marriage is only between a man and a woman.

    Most Americans have no problem calling the formal union between two homosexuals ‘marriage’. Why do you? What is it about the term marriage as applied to homosexuals that’s offensive?

    Good questions, Nittany.

    The idea of “traditional marriage” has always been nonsense. Because it’s changed so often over the centuries, and has always been contingent on culture, region, era.

    Right-wingers love to harp on “Judeo-Christian values” when they discuss this issue. But in the bible, marriage was between one man and several girls. It was forced. Those girls had no say in the matter. They had to obey their father and village elders and go off with some old man they barely knew, only to become his virtual slave. Women had no say in the matter right up into the 1800s in the so-called “civilized” world of Europe and the USA . . . and we had laws on the books as recently as 1981 that said a man could legally rape his wife, something that Trump did, according to his first wife, Ivana.

    “Marriage” was, for millennial, legalized slavery. Its history isn’t anything to be proud of or hold up as some “sacred” institution. Extending it to gay people is actually “civilizing” it beyond where it was, and we should welcome this.

    Oh, and btw, most right-wing fundamentalists either don’t know or conveniently ignore the fact that Jesus never discussed the issue — or abortion or contraception. Not a single word about same-sex relationships (or abortion or contraception).

    #55397
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Talking about “freedom and liberty.” It’s essential to ask for whom. Always ask for whom.

    In the case of same-sex marriage, the answer is easy. You are “free” not to marry someone of your own sex, if you don’t want to. But people who want to should be “free” to do so. They aren’t hurting anyone else. They aren’t robbing anyone else of their “freedom.” No one is being forced into same-sex marriages.

    If you are offended by it, don’t. But you shouldn’t have the right to take away another’s freedom to marry the person they love. It’s immoral for you to take away that freedom from others, especially when it is of no concern to you whatsoever.

    Jefferson has something very wise to say about this and other issues:

    “The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. … Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.2

    #55399
    bnw
    Blocked

    It’s immoral for you to take away that freedom from others, especially when it is of no concern to you whatsoever.

    You invoking morality. I’ve officially seen it all.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #55401
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    Most americans, myself included, are in favor of gays having the same benefits as conferred through marriage. But calling it marriage is wrong. Marriage is only between a man and a woman.

    Most Americans have no problem calling the formal union between two homosexuals ‘marriage’. Why do you? What is it about the term marriage as applied to homosexuals that’s offensive?

    Most americans don’t even think about it. For most people of faith it is offensive to use the term marriage in that context.

    Well, I would disagree that most people of faith are offended by it. Regardless, marriage predates Christianity so the word doesn’t belong to Christians. And as Billy points out the concept of marriage has meant different things to different cultures throughout time. What Christians consider marriage today is different than marriage in the Bible. And the meaning of marriage will likely remain fluid as it always has been.

    #55402
    TSRF
    Participant

    I consider myself an everyday american (especially when it comes to flossing, and by that I mean once every two weeks). Nothing about Trump tells me he is going to keep us out of war. In fact, I think he would be more apt to get us into wars than most who has held the office. Especially stupid wars (which I know is an oxymoron).

    Why do Trump supporters think that HRC hates the average american? Was it her push for universal health care when she was First Lady? I guess it all comes down to how you define “everyday american”.

    When the dust clears from this election, and we get some historical perspective, it will be very interesting to see if this was the last stand of 20th century Baby Boomer politics. By 2020, whites probably aren’t going to be in the majority and more and more of the old guard will be dead.

    I’m thinking (hoping) we’ll tread water from now until 2020 and elect a true progressive then. Of course, the Trump blue print is going to be honed and there may very well be a very strong populist / fascist contender. Just hoping the demographics will have shifted enough by then to swing the vote to the progressive.

    #55403
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Most americans, myself included, are in favor of gays having the same benefits as conferred through marriage. But calling it marriage is wrong. Marriage is only between a man and a woman.

    Most Americans have no problem calling the formal union between two homosexuals ‘marriage’. Why do you? What is it about the term marriage as applied to homosexuals that’s offensive?

    Most americans don’t even think about it. For most people of faith it is offensive to use the term marriage in that context.

    Well, I would disagree that most people of faith are offended by it. Regardless, marriage predates Christianity so the word doesn’t belong to Christians. And as Billy points out the concept of marriage has meant different things to different cultures throughout time. What Christians consider marriage today is different than marriage in the Bible. And the meaning of marriage will likely remain fluid as it always has been.

    Well said.

    And beyond that, who cares if this “offends” certain people? That’s their problem. They’re not involved. It’s none of their business whom someone ELSE marries. Their business begins and ends with their own decision regarding that. It’s like someone being “offended” that another person gets a tattoo — which, btw, the god of the bible calls an abomination, with a death penalty attached.

    In a truly civilized society, we don’t let people’s individual opinions of what does and doesn’t “offend them” about other people dictate how we make policy or laws. Don’t like tattoos? Don’t get one. Case closed.

    Don’t like same-sex marriage? Don’t marry someone of your sex. Case closed.

    That’s what they call “freedom.”

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