NFL Players Respond to Trump on Anthem Protesters… + Kroenke

And apparently Kroenke is one of the five owners who gave Trump a million dollars for his campaign. He probably needs to distance himself from Trump’s statements as soon as possible. If he’s smart he will do it immediately. It will be interesting to see how the NFL players respond tomorrow.

Trump was speaking to HIS audience. It was red meat for their consumption because every month or two he needs to attend a rally to boost his ego because he isn’t quite mentally able to handle criticism and needs constant affirmation. So this is what he does. There is no thought behind it. As long as he gets applause he’s happy. The man disrespects veterans, could care less if anyone has healthcare, has no problems with the free expression of confederate flags or nazi flags but gets worked up about a guy kneeling during the national anthem? He is a phony and I can’t believe that some of his supporters can not see through this.

And he poisons everything he touches–including sports.

I hope every player takes a knee tomorrow. White, black, whatever.

I hear this argument from time to time that we must stand and salute the flag or during the anthem because soldiers died under it. We must show respect. Trump shows no respect. Trump cares only about the flags of green with dead presidents on it.

I stand for the national anthem. I place my hand over my heart. I face the flag.

I also respect the right of those who do not. To me, that’s what the flag that I respect is supposed to represent–that freedom.

There is no expression of hate in kneeling down.

Trump is all about division.

I am a veteran. I consider myself a lucky to live in this country–even with all of its problems. There is not another country I would choose to live in. This is it.

And if I were an NFL player–tomorrow I would join any of my teammates taking a knee.

And I would do it because I do respect the flag. And I believe in what it stands for.

And if that flag is not worthy of representing Americans expressing dissent in a peaceful form then it is not worthy of respect.

The president certainly is not.

Note: I’m not sure if this topic should be in the other forum considering the nature of the topic but it seems as though it straddles both sports and politics so I’m not sure it doesn’t belong here anyway.

In any case–either way–it’s so sad that it has to be a topic at all.

I’m home watching games. I kneeled hearing the anthem.

Mike Tomlin is going to keep his team in the locker room during the national anthem.

— X — wrote:

Hey, you either agree with Nationalism and/or American Exceptionalism, or you don’t. And as painful as it may be for some, over 60 million people do agree with it. Personally, I think players should leave their political protests off the field. And again, millions of people feel the same way. The NFL used to be the only place you could go to escape this stuff, but apparently that’s no longer a luxury. And the NFL will pay the price. Not just because of the right-leaning population who are (and will) protest the league, but because it’s compounded by the left-leaning population who are sympathetic to Kaepernick’s “plight” right now and are protesting until he gets another starting gig.

Doomed. The NFL is doomed.

They should have nipped this in the bud the SECOND Kaepernick decided to use the NFL to advance his agenda. I’m not saying he’s right or wrong, because it’s irrelevant. Politics has no place in sports. It’s not what they’re paid to do, and it’s not what fans pay to see.

Hey, X,

Thing is, there’s a major contradiction in what you’re asking. Cuz playing the national anthem and demanding that everyone act in lock-step is ALREADY “political.” It’s already a Big Gubmint, authoritarian move to indoctrinate large assemblies, and shouldn’t be injected in sporting events in the first place.

You can’t have it both ways. If you don’t want “politics” in the sports arena, then you’re going to have to remove overtly political acts, symbols and demonstrations like a (racist, white supremacist) national anthem, displays of empire and military power, gigantic flags being rolled across the field, etc. etc. And you’re especially going to have to get rid of the obviously authoritarian demand that everyone adheres to all the above without question.

Trump, with his latest barrage of mindless bullying, wants to go even further and actually fire people who don’t obey. What could be more “political” than that, or more “Big Gubmint”?

To me, as long as we try to force people into group-think, lock-step adherence in accepting nationalist myths and symbols, reactions to this are inevitable. And asking people to “keep politics out of it” makes no sense when those nationalist myths and symbols already politicize the events in question.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Billy_T.

I agree with Billy here (no surprise), and will just repeat this much: having the National Anthem and military displays IS political. There is no getting around that. He’s right: if you don’t want politics mixed with sports…stop using them for the political purpose of creating nationalism in the first place.

And defending the national anthem, and criticizing the protesters, is ALSO taking a political stance…it defends the status quo. It says “Shut up. Do not remind me of the country’s imperfections. I don’t want to hear about it.” That is, of course, completely contradictory to what America allegedly stands for in the first place.

Finally, one other thing. I listen to the criticism of actors and athletes with some incredulity. It is as if the audience for these forms of entertainment believe these humans exist principally for our entertainment, and should not have the full rights of ordinary citizens. That, somehow, we are entitled to all their performances, and of course full access to all the details of their personal lives, but they don’t get to say how they perceive the world politically like ordinary citizens do. WTF is that? Seriously. It is enormously selfish to proclaim that you have a right to this person’s service of your desire for entertainment, and they also have to STFU when it comes to politics.

Sorry. No. Citizens in this country have rights. Full rights. And no right is more important than the freedom to point out that the power structures in this country do not respect the rights of all of its citizens. It’s appalling to me, actually. The “STFU” crowd is demonstrating rank hypocrisy.

Worry about yourself, don’t look down. If you want to stand and put your hand on your heart and sing the national anthem, go ahead. That is you. I feel people have different beliefs, it can be social or religious. You should not force someone to do something, especially when players are using, thier constitutional rights of freedom of expression.

Zooey wrote:

Loads of players took a knee in the London game, and I expect that will continue all day long.

DJT has just legitimized this form of protest. Ironically, this probably opens up the door for a team to sign Kaepernick now.

Yeah, there were a handful of guys around the league kneeling until Trump opened his mouth.

He made it into a big deal because he knew the players would react this way. He’s fanning the flames to whip his supporters into a fervor. He wants the country divided.

Growing the ‘us vs them’ dichotomy is his political strategy. It’s how he’ll get re-elected.

— X — wrote:

I’m sorry, but that’s nonsense. It only became political when one person (influenced by his America-hating girlfriend) decided to make it political. It was simply a proud American tradition enacted about a 100 years ago at sporting events. The Flag isn’t a political statement, despite your claims to the contrary. It’s about honor, sacrifice, and pride. Disrespecting it, as I pointed out (and remains true) is an affront to millions of proud Americans.

Billy_T wrote:

And you’re especially going to have to get rid of the obviously authoritarian demand that everyone adheres to all the above without question.

I didn’t demand anyone do anything, and neither did anyone else until Trump said something. It was voluntary, and moreover, UNIVERSALLY voluntary as a matter of pride in one’s Nation. “Want this flag? Tough shit. We kept it and it’s still flying.” That’s all it is.

Billy_T wrote:

Trump, with his latest barrage of mindless bullying, wants to go even further and actually fire people who don’t obey. What could be more “political” than that, or more “Big Gubmint”?

So? If I went into work tomorrow with a flag lit on fire and tossed it into my Supervisor’s office – and THEN wondered why I was fired, I’d be the moron. My job, not unlike the NFL, is a private enterprise. They can write and enforce any rule they want. And they do – just without any consistency. The Cowboys petitioned the NFL to wear stickers on their helmets to honor the police who were murdered in Dallas, and the NFL said no. Why? Too political. And yet…..

Billy_T wrote:

To me, as long as we try to force people into group-think, lock-step adherence in accepting nationalist myths and symbols, reactions to this are inevitable. And asking people to “keep politics out of it” makes no sense when those nationalist myths and symbols already politicize the events in question.

Similarly, as long as ‘they’ try to force people into accepting progressive myths and ridiculous social advancements, reactions to this are inevitable. And asking people to “accept that politics belong everywhere” makes no sense when those Progressive myths and ridiculous social advancements have no business in politics to begin with. The Government should provide free health care? The Government should enact laws protecting “genderless” people? The Government should redistribute wealth? The Government is responsible for oppression? Yeah. Sure thing.

— X — wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

Thing is, there’s a major contradiction in what you’re asking. Cuz playing the national anthem and demanding that everyone act in lock-step is ALREADY “political.”

I’m sorry, but that’s nonsense. It only became political when one person (influenced by his America-hating girlfriend) decided to make it political. It was simply a proud American tradition enacted about a 100 years ago at sporting events. The Flag isn’t a political statement, despite your claims to the contrary. It’s about honor, sacrifice, and pride. Disrespecting it, as I pointed out (and remains true) is an affront to millions of proud Americans.

Billy_T wrote:

And you’re especially going to have to get rid of the obviously authoritarian demand that everyone adheres to all the above without question.

I didn’t demand anyone do anything, and neither did anyone else until Trump said something. It was voluntary, and moreover, UNIVERSALLY voluntary as a matter of pride in one’s Nation. “Want this flag? Tough shit. We kept it and it’s still flying.” That’s all it is.

Billy_T wrote:

Trump, with his latest barrage of mindless bullying, wants to go even further and actually fire people who don’t obey. What could be more “political” than that, or more “Big Gubmint”?

So? If I went into work tomorrow with a flag lit on fire and tossed it into my Supervisor’s office – and THEN wondered why I was fired, I’d be the moron. My job, not unlike the NFL, is a private enterprise. They can write and enforce any rule they want. And they do – just without any consistency. The Cowboys petitioned the NFL to wear stickers on their helmets to honor the police who were murdered in Dallas, and the NFL said no. Why? Too political. And yet…..

Billy_T wrote:

To me, as long as we try to force people into group-think, lock-step adherence in accepting nationalist myths and symbols, reactions to this are inevitable. And asking people to “keep politics out of it” makes no sense when those nationalist myths and symbols already politicize the events in question.

Similarly, as long as ‘they’ try to force people into accepting progressive myths and ridiculous social advancements, reactions to this are inevitable. And asking people to “accept that politics belong everywhere” makes no sense when those Progressive myths and ridiculous social advancements have no business in politics to begin with. The Government should provide free health care? The Government should enact laws protecting “genderless” people? The Government should redistribute wealth? The Government is responsible for oppression? Yeah. Sure thing.

X,

Ever ask yourself who “enacted” this supposed sacred tradition? Where did it come from? Who decided? Who chose the FSK anthem in the first place? The anthem came about due to Big Gubmint fiat, not through any democratic choice, and the ownership of various sports teams decided to play the anthem, at various times, for various reasons. We the people had nothing to do with it.

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/04/492599463/how-did-the-national-anthem-get-to-be-a-mainstay-of-sports-in-the-first-place

Also, you can’t “disrespect” a country through such an action regarding a nationalist symbol. How do you “disrespect” an abstraction via another abstraction? And if you hold up something like an anthem or a flag as “representative” of a nation, you don’t get to cherry-pick which parts of its history count. You don’t get to say, “This ONLY represents all the awesome things we’ve done and do, and NONE of the bad stuff.” If you insist that a symbol actually does “represent” this country, then it has no meaning whatsoever if you dismiss everything except for the rainbows and the unicorns. It loses any potential for meaning, and is then a symbol of a G-rated fairy tale, not an actual nation, with an actual history.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Billy_T.

— X — wrote:

Similarly, as long as ‘they’ try to force people into accepting progressive myths and ridiculous social advancements, reactions to this are inevitable. And asking people to “accept that politics belong everywhere” makes no sense when those Progressive myths and ridiculous social advancements have no business in politics to begin with. The Government should provide free health care? The Government should enact laws protecting “genderless” people? The Government should redistribute wealth? The Government is responsible for oppression? Yeah. Sure thing.

X,

On the above? I was hoping you’d start those threads you mentioned the other day, over in the other forum. Would like to respond, but it seems out of place on the football side.

I’d be interested in your elaboration on pretty much anything, but the stuff in the paragraph cited above might be a good place to start . . .

Billy_T wrote:

X,

On the above? I was hoping you’d start those threads you mentioned the other day, over in the other forum. Would like to respond, but it seems out of place on the football side.

I’d be interested in your elaboration on pretty much anything, but the stuff in the paragraph cited above might be a good place to start . . .

Okay. I’ll do that.

Understand though, in advance, that I have no formal education and that I have no training in debates. I’ll probably veer off course, misrepresent what people are saying, fail to grasp your point (or misinterpret it entirely), and some other things that will make it difficult to have a seamless discussion.

But I’ll still kick your ass. =)

Billy_T wrote:

X,

Ever ask yourself who “enacted” this supposed sacred tradition? Where did it come from? Who decided? Who chose the FSK anthem in the first place? The anthem came about due to Big Gubmint fiat, not through any democratic choice, and the ownership of various sports teams decided to play the anthem, at various times, for various reasons. We the people had nothing to do with it.

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/04/492599463/how-did-the-national-anthem-get-to-be-a-mainstay-of-sports-in-the-first-place

Also, you can’t “disrespect” a country through such an action regarding a nationalist symbol. How do you “disrespect” an abstraction via another abstraction? And if you hold up something like an anthem or a flag as “representative” of a nation, you don’t get to cherry-pick which parts of its history count. You don’t get to say, “This ONLY represents all the awesome things we’ve done and do, and NONE of the bad stuff.” If you insist that a symbol actually does “represent” this country, then it has no meaning whatsoever if you dismiss everything except for the rainbows and the unicorns. It loses any potential for meaning, and is then a symbol of a G-rated fairy tale, not an actual nation, with an actual history.

Good response – despite the fact that it took me an eon to get to it.
For the love of God, learn how to quote man!

I’m gonna carry this over to the other forum and we can pick it up there.

zn wrote:

It’s just avoid sounding antagonistic in a way that can be taken like that by other posters.

Micro-aggressions?

You’re going to have to define for me, then, how people are going to “take” what I say – because there’s no possible way for me to be able to determine that. Is it because I said Progressive myths and/or ridiculous social advancements? Is that offensive? Will it trigger people? I mean, Billeh spoke to me about Nationalist myths and symbols, but I didn’t get offended. Even though I vehemently disagree with the importance of this particular symbol, his opinion doesn’t enrage me or anything. Neither did Zooey when he spoke about the STFU crowd. I’m sure he wasn’t speaking to me, and I’m not the type of person to get offended for other people. Let them carry their own jocks.

wrong thread.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by -- X --.

nittany ram wrote:

He made it into a big deal because he knew the players would react this way. He’s fanning the flames to whip his supporters into a fervor. He wants the country divided.

Growing the ‘us vs them’ dichotomy is his political strategy. It’s how he’ll get re-elected.

this. i fully believe this is his true intention.