for those who are arguing Rams shoulda drafted a qb high

This topic has 22 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 9 months ago by Eternal Ramnation.

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August 25, 2014 at 10:44 am #5027

zn
Moderator

I don’t know if that’s anyone here, but it’s out there, on the net.

#1. Hill is better than any goll-durn rookie.

#2. They used the picks to build a solid team. If it works out that next year they bring in a expectations-setting namebrand rookie, he is better off coming to a solid team.

This whole get your qb and build the team around him thing is wearing on me. It should be the other way around.

That’s regardless what everyone says when it’s draft time.

Roethlisberger went to a solid team. They didn’t need him to spread his wings overnight. Flacco, same. Wilson, same. Kaepernick, same. Foles went to a team that already had probably the best OL in the game. Dalton, same. Rodgers, same.

After years of seeing *what* *happens*, I think it’s the better way.

So personally I don’t care whether or not they have some namebrand rookie. Hill will be better than any of them could be this year, and next year if they add one (which they probably will) that kid, whoever it is, will be better off coming to a team with some receivers, some experience, some maturity, an OL, and a defense.

.

August 25, 2014 at 10:52 am #5029

wv
Participant

Perfectly reasonable viewpoint.

As youve said the qualifier is
if an Andrew Luck is sitting there.
You never pass on a guy like that.

Btw, its obvious to me
the Universe
wants Fisher to have another
.500 year.
That’s whats goin on here.

w
v

August 25, 2014 at 10:57 am #5030

Winnbrad
Participant

zn wrote:

I don’t know if that’s anyone here, but it’s out there, on the net.

#1. Hill is better than any goll-durn rookie.

#2. They used the picks to build a solid team. If it works out that next year they bring in a expectations-setting namebrand rookie, he is better off coming to a solid team.

This whole get your qb and build the team around him thing is wearing on me. It should be the other way around.

That’s regardless what everyone says when it’s draft time.

Roethlisberger went to a solid team. They didn’t need him to spread his wings overnight. Flacco, same. Wilson, same. Kaepernick, same. Foles went to a team that already had probably the best OL in the game. Dalton, same. Rodgers, same.

After years of seeing *what* *happens*, I think it’s the better way.

So personally I don’t care whether or not they have some namebrand rookie. Hill will be better than any of them could be this year, and next year if they add one (which they probably will) that kid, whoever it is, will be better off coming to a team with some receivers, some experience, some maturity, an OL, and a defense.

.

Yep.

That’s all I wanted to add.

Just a “yep”.

I’m too sad to add more…

August 25, 2014 at 11:26 am #5037

rfl
Participant

Well, I think the key for THIS YEAR was that none of the available guys were all that good.

Had there been a real stud in the draft, then given Sam’s injury history it should have been seriously considered. <y sense is that they DID consider it, but never saw a guy worth taking.

In response to your long term argument about the relative values of QBs and team building, I think I’ll just say this.

Very few QBs drafted high are worth the hype.

But, occasionally a guy does make a difference and raises a team. Both Luck and RG III did.

And good teams ARE held back by lousy QBing. Hell, our fine 70s and 80s teams were.

So, in the end, I’d say it comes down to genuine quality. A truly special QB is damn rare. Don’t trade away the farm seeking one in bets … but do take one if you get the chance.

By virtue of the absurd ...

August 25, 2014 at 11:38 am #5041

zn
Moderator

rfl wrote:

So, in the end, I’d say it comes down to genuine quality. A truly special QB is damn rare. Don’t trade away the farm seeking one in bets … but do take one if you get the chance.

Yes and so rare that to me, it doesn’t even factor into discussion.

There was Luck and before that, Manning, Brady…some say Rodgers and Brees but I always thought they were next level down (which is still a very high level).

I just notice, instead, that you don’t need that. Add a Flacco, Eli, Wilson, Big Ben, and so on to a solid team and that’s just fine.

Heck for example, put Philip Rivers on the Seahawks, and they’re frightening.

Put Rivers on the 2012 Chargers team that had clear problems on offense that needed fixing, and the national consensus is that he’s fading.

It was not hard to spot Luck when he came out. He stood out.

And, Luck is already looking like he is going to be a member of that exclusive club of elite qbs whose careers work this way–they are good enough to drive a passing game that wins for you, until it’s the postseason and then the team crashes and burns. That’s Fouts, Marino, Elway before Davis, Warner in Arz, Manning…among others. Long list.

I would not have taken an elite qb in the 2014 draft. I would have traded the pick and kept deepening the team. If I thought there was a chance Bradford wouldn’t make it, I would grin and bear that and add a good qb later. That really is just the way I see all this. I made the same argument in 2010 when I was against drafting Bradford #1–I thought that it was better to have the team and add the qb.

August 25, 2014 at 12:12 pm #5043

joemad
Participant

Correct, Andrew Luck is a once in a generation QB……

No 1st rounder from 2014 would’ve helped the RAMS this season………. Rams did the optimal thing this offseason with Bradford…. I assume they’ll do the same next year.

I really feel for Sam….. real bummed for him.

Sadly, He’s become the Sam Bowie of the NFL……

August 25, 2014 at 12:58 pm #5044
cgsuddeath
Participant
zn wrote:

I don’t know if that’s anyone here, but it’s out there, on the net.

#1. Hill is better than any goll-durn rookie.

#2. They used the picks to build a solid team. If it works out that next year they bring in a expectations-setting namebrand rookie, he is better off coming to a solid team.

This whole get your qb and build the team around him thing is wearing on me. It should be the other way around.

That’s regardless what everyone says when it’s draft time.
Somehow I get the impression they’re done with Bradford despite all the sensationalist journalism going on.

Roethlisberger went to a solid team. They didn’t need him to spread his wings overnight. Flacco, same. Wilson, same. Kaepernick, same. Foles went to a team that already had probably the best OL in the game. Dalton, same. Rodgers, same.

After years of seeing *what* *happens*, I think it’s the better way.

So personally I don’t care whether or not they have some namebrand rookie. Hill will be better than any of them could be this year, and next year if they add one (which they probably will) that kid, whoever it is, will be better off coming to a team with some receivers, some experience, some maturity, an OL, and a defense.

.

Somehow I get the impression they’re not done with Bradford despite all the sensationalist journalism going on.
- This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by cgsuddeath.
August 25, 2014 at 1:10 pm #5045

PA Ram
Participant

Mostly, I remember people talking about the 4th or 5th round–a developmental guy. They waited til the 6th and took Gilbert so that’s not much difference, I guess.

In hindsight I would have preferred they take a QB in the second round.

I am the “hindsight” analyst. It’s just what I do. but even then–would any of these guys be better than Hill right now? Of course not–it’s more a a future thing.

But this is not going to dampen my enthusiasm for this year. Fisher even said, everyone knows they will be a run first offense. They have a strong defense(yeah–I worry about the secondary)and guys like Robinson will only get better. Hill can make the throws they need to win games. That’s all I care about.

They are in the spot they are–period. No one can rewind this. We have no idea what will happen until it plays out.

Will they be in the 8-8 range again–picking middle of the 1st round?

Will they be awful and get the #1 pick?

Will they make the playoffs?

It’s just a matter of seeing how it plays out. I don’t think they should have to significantly alter their plans under Hill.

But what happens if Hill goes down?

I just suspect they aren’t completely happy with the situation and WILL bring in another guy and go with 3 QBs this year. Someone will shake loose and I expect they will pounce on him. I don’t expect a trade unless it’s for very minimal.

Let the games begin.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

August 25, 2014 at 2:55 pm #5058

Herzog
Participant

I wouldn’t have wanted to lose out on GR or Donald. Not with that bunch that was available.

August 25, 2014 at 3:10 pm #5059

Mackeyser
Moderator

I dunno that I really liked any of the QBs in this draft. Any. So I don’t fault them for not drafting any until Gilbert.

I certainly wouldn’t trade who we have for any of the QBs who got drafted… ugh.

But after some distance and because I believe in Shaun Hill, I’m having difficulty getting too far into the weeds on discussions like this.

I truly think WITH Shaun Hill at QB we’ll be 5-0 before we face Seattle at home.

I mean, this is the type of stuff a team has to overcome to win the Lombardi… so… we overcome it.

I. STILL. THINK. IT. IS. OUR. YEAR.

Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

August 25, 2014 at 4:02 pm #5064

Herzog
Participant

God bless you Mack…you are a beacon of light

August 25, 2014 at 4:09 pm #5065
TackleDummy
Participant
joemad wrote:

Correct, Andrew Luck is a once in a generation QB…

True, Luck is a rare qb.
But pre-draft so was Sam Bradford, RGIII, Tim Crouch, Ryan Leaf, and Jamarcus Russell.
Drafting a quarterback is a crap shoot. Always.
- This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by TackleDummy.
- This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by TackleDummy.
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August 25, 2014 at 4:15 pm #5068

zn
Moderator

True, Luck is a rare qb.
But pre-draft so was Sam Bradford, RGIII, Tim Crouch, Ryan Leaf, and Jamarcus Russell.

No, Luck really was. He was already doing things only more advanced pros do. It was like Donald with hand usage–rookies are not supposed to be advanced as he is. Remember, Luck was not only a good prospect in his own right, he was the son of a former pro qb and had Harbaugh as his college coach.

All the other guys listed were supposed to have potential. That wasn’t Luck. Luck was just something different.

And many of us said in advance that Bradford did not look like an elite class qb. I know some said he was, but many of us never bought in on that. That wasn’t to disparge him. They don’t all have to be elite class qbs.

And as it happens I also think that Bradford paid off as a pro qb and was already quite good. What got Bradford was injuries.

August 25, 2014 at 4:30 pm #5071

snowman
Participant

Nothing more to add to what Mac already said. All the “I told you so” types are just exercising their hindsight.

August 25, 2014 at 8:17 pm #5111

TackleDummy
Participant

zn wrote:

No, Luck really was. He was already doing things only more advanced pros do. It was like Donald with hand usage–rookies are not supposed to be advanced as he is. Remember, Luck was not only a good prospect in his own right, he was the son of a former pro qb and had Harbaugh as his college coach.

Really good hindsight.

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August 25, 2014 at 8:21 pm #5112

zn
Moderator

TackleDummy wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>zn wrote:</div>
No, Luck really was. He was already doing things only more advanced pros do. It was like Donald with hand usage–rookies are not supposed to be advanced as he is. Remember, Luck was not only a good prospect in his own right, he was the son of a former pro qb and had Harbaugh as his college coach.

Really good hindsight.

Well to be fair, TD, I didn’t say anything about Luck today I wasn’t saying before they drafted him (and I was far from alone). I even got in a little trouble saying it among some folks who took it as saying he was better coming out of school than Bradford was (and we WERE saying that).

He was ahead. That was part of his vibe.

The other guys, people talked in terms of physical potential and/or college accomplishments. Luck, the vibe was–just like Donald and his hands techniques–he was very advanced and it was also closely tied to his instincts, anticipation, and timing. Analysts like Cosell were in awe when they talked about Luck.

August 25, 2014 at 8:22 pm #5113

InvaderRam
Moderator

Well, I think the key for THIS YEAR was that none of the available guys were all that good.
Had there been a real stud in the draft, then given Sam’s injury history it should have been seriously considered. <y sense is that they DID consider it, but never saw a guy worth taking.

In response to your long term argument about the relative values of QBs and team building, I think I’ll just say this.

Very few QBs drafted high are worth the hype.

But, occasionally a guy does make a difference and raises a team. Both Luck and RG III did.

And good teams ARE held back by lousy QBing. Hell, our fine 70s and 80s teams were.

So, in the end, I’d say it comes down to genuine quality. A truly special QB is damn rare. Don’t trade away the farm seeking one in bets … but do take one if you get the chance.

yup. but i would add. even if there was a prospect like a flacco or a roethlisberger. even that shoulda been considered. but there wasn’t even that. maybe bortles? i don’t know.

hopefully, in 2015, there will be some prospects in the middle of the first round.

August 25, 2014 at 8:36 pm #5120

zn
Moderator

InvaderRam wrote:

Well, I think the key for THIS YEAR was that none of the available guys were all that good.
Had there been a real stud in the draft, then given Sam’s injury history it should have been seriously considered. <y sense is that they DID consider it, but never saw a guy worth taking.

In response to your long term argument about the relative values of QBs and team building, I think I’ll just say this.

Very few QBs drafted high are worth the hype.

But, occasionally a guy does make a difference and raises a team. Both Luck and RG III did.

And good teams ARE held back by lousy QBing. Hell, our fine 70s and 80s teams were.

So, in the end, I’d say it comes down to genuine quality. A truly special QB is damn rare. Don’t trade away the farm seeking one in bets … but do take one if you get the chance.

yup. but i would add. even if there was a prospect like a flacco or a roethlisberger. even that shoulda been considered. but there wasn’t even that. maybe bortles? i don’t know.

hopefully, in 2015, there will be some prospects in the middle of the first round.

I wouldn’t have considered anyone, invader. And I would not have regarded it as a conscious gamble, either.

In fact as memory serves, none of us did. Or only a few though I don’t even remember that.

.

August 25, 2014 at 9:15 pm #5126

InvaderRam
Moderator

oh i didn’t either. i shouldn’t have said “shoulda been considered” because at the time i was happy with the qb situation and confident that bradford would come back healthy. i guess my main point was that i didn’t like any of the qbs in 2014 at all. they were all over-drafted. bortles for example should have been a mid-first round pick at best.

i’m hoping the 2015 class is better.

August 25, 2014 at 10:54 pm #5154

zn
Moderator

zn wrote:

Well to be fair, TD, I didn’t say anything about Luck today I wasn’t saying before they drafted him (and I was far from alone). I even got in a little trouble saying it among some folks who took it as saying he was better coming out of school than Bradford was (and we WERE saying that).

He was ahead. That was part of his vibe.

The other guys, people talked in terms of physical potential and/or college accomplishments. Luck, the vibe was–just like Donald and his hands techniques–he was very advanced and it was also closely tied to his instincts, anticipation, and timing. Analysts like Cosell were in awe when they talked about Luck.

Well I think I want to clarify this.

I don’t think anyone accurately predicted anything. That is, no one said X will fail, Y will make it.

What I AM saying is that yes Luck was talked about differently. And it showed in who he was too.

With the other guys, as I said, people assessed potential to be a pro qb. They looked at his college play, they looked at his skills, and so on. All of it, from Bradford to Leaf, was about potential.

With Luck, people were talking about how uncannily ahead he was–how he was doing things that 3rd year pros do. Subtle stuff having to do with pre-snap reads, timing, anticipation. He had the instincts of a pro qb already. I think that part of this is he had the aptitude (plus of course ability), but part of it was his coach was Harbaugh and Harbaugh coached him like a pro player.

So yeah Luck was talked about differently.

August 26, 2014 at 12:13 am #5169
InvaderRam
Moderator
with the other qbs it was well you gotta draft qb such and such because you need a qb and qbs are such a valuable commodity in today’s nfl…

with luck it was well you gotta draft him cuz he’s the best player available in this draft.

it was pretty much universally agreed that qbs are getting overdrafted because of their position. even bradford. suh was regarded as the best player available, but the rams drafted sam because… he was a qb. in retrospect, mccoy woulda been the best pick but that’s a different argument.

with luck. he was considered the best prospect period. that’s how i saw it.
- This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by InvaderRam.
- This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by InvaderRam.
August 26, 2014 at 11:35 pm #5289

zn
Moderator

Mackeyser wrote:

I dunno that I really liked any of the QBs in this draft. Any. So I don’t fault them for not drafting any until Gilbert.

I certainly wouldn’t trade who we have for any of the QBs who got drafted… ugh.

But after some distance and because I believe in Shaun Hill, I’m having difficulty getting too far into the weeds on discussions like this.

I truly think WITH Shaun Hill at QB we’ll be 5-0 before we face Seattle at home.

I mean, this is the type of stuff a team has to overcome to win the Lombardi… so… we overcome it.

I. STILL. THINK. IT. IS. OUR. YEAR.

I may not be as optimistic as you are. But, if last year they could beat top non-division teams with Clemens at qb and play Seattle hard at home also with Clemens, then I think this collection of guys–who are improved in every way over last year–can have a winning season.

August 27, 2014 at 5:46 am #5303

Eternal Ramnation
Participant

I know Martz sure thinks Hill can do it . The guy is 6’5″ which helps him see stuff better he’s very tough and makes plays. That audible
where he changed the play and BC went for 20+, this guy is not Clemons.
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