Bern comin to town

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  • #43390
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Bernie won Indiana, i see. Nice.

    He’s coming to my town on Thursday. Lookin forward to
    seein how many folks turn out for ole Bern.

    I still cannot believe how well he is doin,
    given all the usual forces allied against him.

    Still, Hillary is our next President. Ah well.
    At least the Banks and Corporations and wealthy ‘professionals’ will be happy.

    w
    v
    ——-
    http://thedpost.com/Bernie-Sanders-to-visit-Morganto
    Bernie Sanders to visit Morgantown Thursday
    Submitted to TheDPost.com

    MORGANTOWN — Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders will visit Morgantown on Thursday.

    Sanders will speak at 7 p.m. at Waterfront Place Hotel, 2 Waterfront Place, Morgantown. Doors open at 5 p.m.

    The event is free and open to the public, but RSVPs are strongly encouraged. Admission is first come, first served. For security reasons, do not bring bags and limit what you bring to small, personal items such as keys and cell phones. Weapons, sharp objects, chairs, and signs or banners on sticks will not be allowed through security. Paid parking is available at the hotel parking garage. Carpooling is encouraged. Attendees can also arrive via the Caperton Trail walking path or the WVU PRT.

    #43397
    bnw
    Blocked

    Let us know what his message is regarding coal.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #43404
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    Bernie won Indiana, i see. Nice.

    He’s coming to my town on Thursday. Lookin forward to
    seein how many folks turn out for ole Bern.

    I still cannot believe how well he is doin,
    given all the usual forces allied against him.

    Still, Hillary is our next President. Ah well.
    At least the Banks and Corporations and wealthy ‘professionals’ will be happy.

    w
    v
    ——-

    Here’s a thought I had….

    I don’t know how much you are following this, but I have been watching with interest. And the media has been a fascinating animal on this primary season because – as you know – Trump has eaten up the lion’s share of media coverage. Every time there is a primary or caucus, the focus is on Trump. I have literally had difficulty tracking the democrat side because I go to google news, and every story is on the Republican primary with news of the horse race, and of who insulted whom, and so on. Finding an article on the democrat side has been actually difficult. Typically, there is a paragraph about the outcome of the vote that concludes that Hillary is still a shoe-in, and then back to the Trump/Cruz/whatever BS storyline.

    Well, ya know, the media IS obsessed with the horse race aspect of politics. That has been their primary focus for decades: polls, delegate counts, and so on. Issues…not so much. Unless they come packaged for them by a candidate in a “zinger” or “gotcha” quip.

    But now there is nothing to cover on the Republican side. Trump is the last man standing.

    Are they suddenly going to discover there is a debate happening in the democrat party?

    I think they might. I don’t know if they can stop themselves. They’ve all been toeing the line by ignoring Bernie all year, but that’s the only horse race now. They are going to have to start talking about it.

    That isn’t good for Hillary, I don’t think.

    #43422
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Are they suddenly going to discover there is a debate happening in the democrat party?

    I think they might. I don’t know if they can stop themselves. They’ve all been toeing the line by ignoring Bernie all year, but that’s the only horse race now. They are going to have to start talking about it.

    That isn’t good for Hillary, I don’t think.

    ———————

    Well for the most part i dont the bizness-as-usual-dynamic will change.
    They’ll not discover any ‘debate on policies’ between Hillary and Bernie.
    They’ll just cover the shallow stuff, and the ‘horserace’ stuff between her and bernie, as per usual.

    Aint gonna be no media coverage of Policies, Zooey.
    That aint happnin. Bernie’s policies are off-limits.

    ….btw, there’s a big Bernie sign hanging from the second floor of my house. I made it myself. After i made it, i got the brilliant idea to
    pierce little holes in all the letters and then push christmas lights into the holes and thus have a Bernie sign that lights up. So, i spent an hour punching holes and then another hour pushing lights thru the holes. …and then I hook up an extension cord…and pat myself on the back….and plug it all in…and….nuthin. Must be a light out somewhere in the gazillion-light string. !@$%%$#@@!

    I blame Hillary.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 8 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    • This reply was modified 8 years, 8 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    #43432
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Are they suddenly going to discover there is a debate happening in the democrat party?

    I think they might. I don’t know if they can stop themselves. They’ve all been toeing the line by ignoring Bernie all year, but that’s the only horse race now. They are going to have to start talking about it.

    That isn’t good for Hillary, I don’t think.

    ———————

    LOL.

    I was coming here to post about this (no, not your sign…, although that’s funny stuff)

    I read an article (linked on HuffPo, but actually one of the few decent ones…I dunno why I keep going back there… bad habits are hard to break I guess) and it posited a few very encouraging points.

    1) Trump shouldn’t be the focus nearly as much unless he’s attacking Hillary since the “race” won’t be contested.

    2) Hillary will be fighting a two front war. She’ll be fighting a policy war with Bernie that she can’t “win” because she doesn’t fundamentally agree with the people she needs to win over who support Sanders. She’ll be fighting a personality/cultural/dirty war with Trump that she can’t “win” because to fight him on equal terms is to be “unpresidential” and to not fight him is to simply be a punching bag. The only true defense is to take the moral high ground, but Clinton can’t possibly do that between the Clinton Foundation’s fundraising and her constant flip-flopping as well as her absolute lack of any kind of a moral compass.

    3) It looks like with independents not needing or maybe wanting to vote for Trump, the remaining contests actually look like Bernie may sweep them, including CA. Thus, while Hillary will enter the Convention with the most votes and most delegates, she will also enter the Convention having potentially lost 22 of the last 30 contests AND potentially being behind nationally in the polls to Bernie for several months (Bernie’s been up nationally for about a month now) and by the time of the Convention, it may be clear that Hillary may be even or losing to Trump whereas Bernie will very likely have a substantial lead.

    That point can’t be understated. If the Republicans want to win, they’ll start BLASTING Sanders, but as of right now, they’re going full bore at Hillary as if they just can’t conceive (like Hillary) that Sanders can win.

    Point being that after hammering Hillary until July, she may be losing to Trump in the polls or be within the margin of error while Bernie is likely to be up by double digits or close to 20 points.

    So here will be the big question.

    Do the super delegates put Hillary over the top knowing that Trump and the GOP smear machine will only continue and go super negative, depress turnout and put Trump in the White House?

    We’ll see.

    Well for the most part i dont the bizness-as-usual-dynamic will change.
    They’ll not discover any ‘debate on policies’ between Hillary and Bernie.
    They’ll just cover the shallow stuff, and the ‘horserace’ stuff between her and bernie, as per usual.

    Aint gonna be no media coverage of Policies, Zooey.
    That aint happnin. Bernie’s policies are off-limits.

    ….btw, there’s a big Bernie sign hanging from the second floor of my house. I made it myself. After i made it, i got the brilliant idea to
    pierce little holes in all the letters and then push christmas lights into the holes and thus have a Bernie sign that lights up. So, i spent an hour punching holes and then another hour pushing lights thru the holes. …and then I hook up an extension cord…and pat myself on the back….and plug it all in…and….nuthin. Must be a light out somewhere in the gazillion-light string. !@$%%$#@@!

    I blame Hillary.

    w
    v

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #43447
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    Oh. Yes.

    California switched to Open Primaries a couple of cycles ago.

    No need to vote for Trump.

    Every Californian who doesn’t like Hillary will vote against her in the primary.

    Sanders will win this state.

    #43458
    PA Ram
    Participant

    I don’t know–Clinton is up by 10 points in California right now. Bernie may pull it out but it will be tough.

    Bernie has just never been able to win enough support from the AA community and that has hurt him in many states. I don’t know why that is–but it just is. I suppose she has a history with the community and knows many leaders.

    But that will help her in the general election. Trump will overwhelmingly lose minority voters.

    On the other hand a lot of Bernie supporters can’t stand her and will not vote for her–period. I think most will vote for Jill Stein or not at all but some may in fact vote Trump.

    At the end of the day I believe she will be the next president–unless……her legal issues bring her down. That’s the only thing I see stopping her.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #43526
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    A few memes I just had to share…

    I feel this so deeply when I read or watch anything political these days…

    It seems so clear…

    So true…

    DREAM TICKET

    FDR…freakin’ commie…

    He’s a better dude than me in part ‘cuz he’s more optimistic…

    SERIOUSLY, RIGHT???

    Maybe one of the best infographics, ever…

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Mackeyser.
    • This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Mackeyser.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #43836
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Bernie wins West, by god, Virginia.

    I did my part. Its up to Zooey to win California now.

    NY Times article. I aint readin nuthin from the Times
    but I’ll post it, fwiw.


    Bernie Sanders Wins West Virginia, Prolonging Race With Hillary Clinton

    Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont captured the West Virginia primary on Tuesday, forcing Hillary Clinton to continue a costly and distracting two-front battle: to lock down the Democratic nomination and to take on Donald J. Trump in the general election.

    Mrs. Clinton has a nearly insurmountable lead in delegates, which Mr. Sanders’s victory, one week after he won Indiana, did little to narrow. But by staying in the race, as he has vowed to do until the Democratic convention in Philadelphia in July, Mr. Sanders continues to tug Mrs. Clinton to the left.

    This week, after long resisting Mr. Sanders’s call for a single-payer health care system, Mrs. Clinton embraced allowing people as young as 50 to buy into Medicare.

    In Oregon, which votes next week, Mr. Sanders appealed to unpledged superdelegates, who can cast votes as they please at the convention, to rally behind him as the stronger opponent to Mr. Trump.

    “If you look over the last month or six weeks, at every national poll, Bernie Sanders defeats Donald Trump by big numbers,” he said.

    With Mr. Trump aggressively attacking Mrs. Clinton as he focuses on the general election, Mrs. Clinton’s potential vulnerability was exposed in her defeats in West Virginia and Indiana, states with many white, working-class voters.

    Once a core Democratic constituency, whites in Appalachia without a college education have deserted the party over cultural issues like guns and President Obama’s environmental policies, which have hurt the coal mining industry.

    Mrs. Clinton tried to repair relations in the last week, less because of her contest with Mr. Sanders than to mend fences for the November election.

    She campaigned hard along the Ohio River, knowing that she must stanch the defection of working-class voters, especially white men, to Mr. Trump in two crucial states, Ohio and Pennsylvania.
    Her campaign, which has not bought television ads since her sweep of four Eastern states on April 26 and hoped to conserve money for the general election, is going back on the air in Kentucky before its primary next week.

    Mrs. Clinton’s vulnerability in Ohio and Pennsylvania was highlighted by polls released Tuesday by Quinnipiac University, which showed her running close with Mr. Trump in the two states but losing ground because of a wide gender gap. In Ohio, which has voted with the winning candidate in the last 10 presidential elections, she was ahead of Mr. Trump by seven percentage points among women, but behind by 15 points among men.

    In Pennsylvania, which Mr. Trump aims to win as part of a Rust Belt strategy, Mrs. Clinton was ahead among women by 19 points, but losing to Mr. Trump among men by an equal 19 points.
    Mr. Trump, who became the presumptive Republican nominee last week with a landslide victory in Indiana, added icing to the cake on Tuesday by taking West Virginia and Nebraska. (Democrats voted in Nebraska on March 5.)

    Even before the withdrawal of his last Republican rivals, Senator Ted Cruz of Texas and Gov. John Kasich of Ohio, Mr. Trump was far and away the leader in West Virginia polls. At a rally in the state last week, he promised to bring back coal mining jobs, without giving any details.
    The decline of coal in Appalachia is a result of increased mechanization of mining, the conversion of power plants to cheaper natural gas, and environmental regulations. The industry and its political allies play down the first two and blame the White House for a “war on coal.”

    Mr. Trump, who has repeatedly called climate change a “hoax,” opposes Mr. Obama’s plan to reduce carbon emissions from power plants. Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Sanders both propose more rapid transitions to cleaner energy, partly to create new jobs.

    Mrs. Clinton was haunted throughout her visits to West Virginia and Kentucky last week by a comment she made in March that her climate change policies would “put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business.” She made the remark in the context of pledging money to coal communities, but the sound bite trailed her, and she found herself repeatedly on the defensive.
    Mr. Sanders’s victory was less about policy differences with Mrs. Clinton (his environmental plans would phase out coal more rapidly) than about the state’s demographics. He beat Mrs. Clinton in a largely white, rural state, as he has throughout the primaries.

    Eight years ago, when Mrs. Clinton defeated Mr. Obama in West Virginia’s primary, one in five voters said in exit polls that race had been a factor.
    =======================

    #43851
    bnw
    Blocked

    Given Clinton’s lust to kill the coal industry I’m surprised she received as much of the vote in WV as she did.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #43859
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    Bernie wins West, by god, Virginia.

    I did my part. Its up to Zooey to win California now.

    Yeah, well, okay. Let me see if I can close the gap by more than the phenomenal 5 delegate gain you put up, bro.

    You know what is far, far worse than the NYT? The WSJ. That once highly respectable paper reads now like a tabloid, practically. What a disgrace that paper is.

    #43862
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Given Clinton’s lust to kill the coal industry I’m surprised she received as much of the vote in WV as she did.

    ————-

    Let me ask you a general, political-philosophical question. Maybe Ozone will chime in too. No heat or rancor involved here — just a good-natured question. Now, without quibbling about the algebra, I think we can agree
    that in America today, the top one percent owns a gazillion times more
    than the bottom 50 percent. And the top one percent has way more power. Political and Economic power. And then there’s the bottom fifteen or twenty percent of Americans who are in a very dark hole. And i dont even wanna try and describe how bad the bottom five percent have it. (Its a wonder to me that, that group hasn’t just started running around on a mad killing spree)

    So we have this really bad Inequality. And its got nuthin to do with who works hard. I mean, the poor people who work at Walmart work a lot harder than Donald Trump or George Soros, right?

    And this Inequality is growing, in America. The top one percent are getting richer and more powerful by the day. And the bottom ten percent is literally fighting for its life everyday.

    Now my question is — does this situation bother you? And if it does, why wouldnt you want to support policies that redistribute some of that wealth? (that of course would mean supporting leftist policies)

    w
    v

    #43868
    bnw
    Blocked

    Wealth is already distributed via taxation. The problem is far too many people are not paying taxes or receive far more than they contribute. I see the problem as a lack of full time family of 4 supporting jobs. People can argue the social cultural BULLSHIT all they want and the establishment of both parties prefer that but that gets the nation where it is now, divided and incapable of addressing the real problems. The real problems are not which bathroom can a trans-human use.

    JOBS. JOBS. More meaningful stable family supporting jobs. I believe people inherently want to work. I believe government should stop being a hindrance to job creation. In my town it is nearly impossible for a person to start a restaurant or operate a grocery or any number of brick and mortar business because of the extremely high cost to comply with the city regulations alone. Then theres the state regulations. So what happens is the national franchise chains take up the void and the money leaves the community. That money could provide opportunity locally but doesn’t. When Wal-Mart or Costco move into a town the local businesses close and wages fall while the cheap shit products from other nations are sold to ever poorer customers.

    Regarding the wealthy and taxes paid, looking at it without class envy, why should they have to pay more than anyone else on a percentage basis? Of course they are the one group capable of paying more but the way to go about it should be more palatable to them. While graduated scale taxation is nothing new it shouldn’t stifle investment in the national economy. The only tax loopholes available should all be based upon US job creation.

    Make it easier for people to go into business for themselves. This transcends race. All americans should be free to serve their community by operating their own business. That is how wealth is not only created but honestly redistributed throughout the economy.

    People need to vote for the goal of fairness. Trump has tapped into this by saying Wall Street has taken unfair advantage and must be held to account. Corporations not paying their fair share of taxation must be addressed as well. The outsider movement of both parties is in response to politicians of both parties embracing “too big too fail” to the economic detriment of the average american. Secret trade deals that always give working americans the shaft.
    have to end. Eliminating illegal immigration is such an obvious part of the solution to jobs since greater competition for entry level jobs denies citizens jobs and lowers wage rates for workers. So simple yet fodder for identity politics charges of racism.

    The inequality is shocking and cannot continue if the middle class is to survive and thrive. Where I live there isn’t a great disparity of wealth on display as there is on the coasts. Of course on TV or the internet you can’t escape the marketing of class envy. But the economic pain is real and has been for a long time here and I’m in a town that has still faired better than those around it.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #43877
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    I don’t think much of the concept of Fairness. I always cringe when I hear the left call for the rich to “pay their fair share.” There is no such thing as “fair.” There never has been, and there never will be. Life is not fair in any way that has meaning.

    There is no such thing as a Level Playing Field. There never has been, and there never will be. You can go all the way back to Hammurabi’s stele, and there has never been a level economic playing field. Governments make rules that govern commerce. And every rule ever written tilts the playing field in a certain direction.

    The only economic question, really, is how we want the playing field tilted. That’s the only question.

    And the answer to that question derives from what we want our society to look like.

    I don’t want to live in a society with tent cities. I don’t want to live in a society where people are so accustomed to living in filth that they don’t even bother to brush the flies off their faces anymore. I don’t want to live in a society in which people have to choose between food and medicine, between their well-being and a third job to pay the rent. I don’t want Flint.

    This is a rich country. And for the past 35 years, Americans have been working harder and longer, increasing economic productivity, and their wages haven’t reflected that. I have often heard it said that Reagan’s Trickle Down economics failed. It didn’t. It worked stunningly well. Wealth trickled down. And it geysered up.

    In short, the bottom 90% has been busting their asses for the past 35 years, and their wealth has stagnated or declined against the cost of living while the rich have had their wealth boom. We are working harder, and they are reaping the increased wealth. Basically ALL of it.

    Rich people should pay more because they don’t need that wealth, and millions of hard-working people do need it. That’s why. It isn’t a question of “fair share.” It’s a question of Quality of Life.

    Stan Kroenke moved to LA to make another billion dollars. Why? Is that billion dollars going to improve the quality of his life? There is a point at which more money is meaningless except in terms of power and ego. There is a point at which you, your children, and grandchildren will never have to earn a dime for the rest of your lives without sacrificing a single luxury. In no way do I think it is moral for Kroenke or hundreds of other people to pursue wealth at the expense of other human beings’ happiness, security, and health just to feed their appetite for power and greed.

    Furthermore, I have a great deal more respect for my garbage collector than I do for Stan Kroenke. My garbage collector gets up very early, in the dark of winter, in the rain and snow and freezing temperatures, or in the sweltering heat of mid-day, he drives to my house and takes all my crap away from my curb for me. They cannot pay that guy enough to do that work. Meanwhile, Stan can sit poolside in Monaco working on his tan and compile more wealth in a weekend than my garbage collector will in his lifetime. They designate it Unearned Income for a reason.

    And I think that people who slaughter pigs, and sort recycling, and flip burgers, and clean up high school bathrooms where teenagers shit on the floor just to be rude…I think those are hard-working human beings who deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, and receive decent pay for what they do, or to be compensated in services like health care and education and affordable housing and safe nearby parks. There is enough wealth in this country to make that happen WITHOUT stealing away from the quality of life of the fortunate people who make their way into the blessed 1%.

    So, fuck it. Raise their taxes. I don’t give a shit if it is “fair” or not.

    #43878
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    I think you might want to check the math on assumptions in your first sentence.

    Yes, wealth is redistributed via taxation. However, the assumption in your post is downward.

    It is not. Even in taking into account Social Programs…

    Why do the wealthy stay in the US? It’s a really, REALLY important question.

    Other countries have fantastic cuisine, people who speak English, great weather and all the services for wealthy people.

    So…why stay?

    Wealthy people stay in the US as well as wealthy people from around the world come here for extended stays or immigrate here because of what this country offers: police forces and judiciaries that are notoriously not corrupt. It is a scandal when one is found to BE corrupt. Constitutional and regulatory mechanisms such that their real property, assets and finances are protected from seizure without due process.

    That’s fantastically important.

    Because the narrative from these wealthy individuals who enjoy benefits that they cannot enjoy in places like Mexico, China or other places that generate Billionaires is that their resources are not nearly as secure at home.

    The wealthy are trying to have all the benefits of being SAFE and having their WEALTH be SAFE while insisting that everyone else put their shoulders to the wheel.

    Are their systemic issues, like local and state regulations? Yes. yes there are.

    However, arguing for MORE brick and mortar entrepreneurship is like arguing for more Buggy whip makers. Brick and mortar retailing is dying much like print journalism and broadcast television.

    Frankly, I’m FINE…absolutely FINE with having the super wealthy PAY and PAY handsomely for the safety and security that comes from being able to be a Billionaire and to walk safely on the street without a security team in the US. There are dozens of countries in the world that wouldn’t even be a laughable consideration.

    Why? Because it costs LOTS of money to provide all of the conditions that allow for that; it costs tons for such a government and to maintain it. And we have a unique social outlook toward the rich that isn’t shared by other western nations.

    So, frankly, I’m far less concerned with taxing the wealthy a graduated percentage because they get SO MUCH MORE, that it’s disgusting…and they can’t get it almost anywhere else save a few other nations.

    Why should they have to pay more? Because they don’t have to worry about dealing with routine kidnapping like in SO MANY other nations or living in an armed compound or having to travel everywhere via armed caravan.

    Why should they have to pay more? Because they don’t have to worry about being jailed in the middle of the night and have all of their assets seized for bogus charges validated by a corrupt judge.

    Why should they have to pay more? Because they don’t have to worry about revolutionary forces bombing civilians or creating unrest and potentially killing them or family members as they go about their lives.

    Why should they have to pay more? Because they don’t have to worry about their assets being in a completely government manipulated market that will crash in a moment and render them bankrupt.

    ALL of these things exist today in other countries. They are very, very real.

    There is a reason that the wealthy want to ingrain into the American Psyche that every single thing that needs to happen…well, it can be fixed with JOBS.

    Well, a) which jobs because if we add 5 million more Starbucks Barristas to the economy, that’s not a good thing overall, b) the economy is already fantastically out of balance c) if the economy is best when it efficiently meets needs, then why aren’t we borrowing MASSIVE sums at near zero interest to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure including our INTERNET backbone and make FTTH (Fiber To The Home) a National Imperative and not just to bougie subdivisions like Verizon cherry-picked (I guess I got lucky mine got picked…and yeah, it’s pretty vanilla and suburban and bougie)?

    I don’t disagree with all that you say, bnw. Rather, I see conflation. It seems to be a theme.

    Of course, we need better jobs. And we need Single Payer so that employers can cut out this bullshit mass underemployment. I mean, the ONLY reason people aren’t fully employed is that employers don’t want to offer health insurance. THAT’S IT. They don’t care about things like 401(k)s and things like that. Nope. Some would even be willing to allow profit sharing and things like that. But NOT health insurance. That’s the ONE thing that’s a no go.

    Single payer fixes ALL of that. It actually OPENS up jobs…AND it makes it EASIER to start a business because you don’t have to navigate the minefield that is the first hire. Payroll is hard enough, but health insurance? Gimme a break, that’s just nuts.

    There are ways…some of them just fantastically easy…to fix this. And even hardcore conservatives agree… like Single Payer. And…single payer doesn’t stop innovation. I go to the VA and Germany has single payer healthcare…and most of the MRI and Cat-scan and PET-scan machines are made by Siemens, a German company. The VA isn’t buying the GE machines. I dunno why. Point is that innovation can come from single-payer economies. And currently DOES.

    But just no on the wealthy paying the same as the rest of us. No. If they don’t like paying a lot more, let them go to Mexico and have to deal with the overhead of armed guards and armored vehicles and staffing a compound. Oh, wait… that’s why so many of the Mexican millionaires/billionaires come to the US… or they can go back to China and be at the whim of the Party Officials…or go back to Russia and hope to avoid Putin or the mob there…

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #43882
    PA Ram
    Participant

    Also–there is a cost to the billions the wealthy make when they exploit the environment which is not figured into the economics mix but it’s a cost we all pay. They get mostly a free ride here. And castrating the EPA is not helping. A “free Market” is not science—it is indeed rules and regulations–as Zooey said–which tilt the field in one direction or the other. These are choices a society makes. Either you want a middle class or you don’t. It won’t happen by itself.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #43883
    bnw
    Blocked

    Well to address all of your “Why should they” questions the answer is ALL OF THAT DOES HAPPEN HERE. It has happened for the last 100 years. Why you think the US is immune to all of that only you can answer. The rich from other nations do come here for more financial protection especially the well entrenched culture of private real estate ownership.

    You may inveigh all you want about forcing the wealthy to pay a higher tax rate but they are free to leave and increasingly they do if not in person then their money. I prefer to make it a win win by giving them a strong tax incentive to invest in US job creation. That should be the goal. Meanwhile we have a government under the guise of homeland security that obstructs citizens from moving their wealth out of the country by onerous regulations on foreign banks, forcing domestic banks to report any cash transaction of $10,000 or even less, the confiscation of valuables by the TSA, etc.

    One of the few growth industries we have are the wealthy building redoubts throughout flyover country as well as overseas. That has been going on for a decade and shows no sign of slowing down. With Snowdon’s revelations and the Nat. Defense AA our rights have been shredded and the ‘legal’ denial of freedom (your very life and at a minimum liberty) based upon political view hangs by a thread for so many americans. They want to push society into revolt to solidify their power. If you think it is bad now, just wait.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #43889
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well to address all of your “Why should they” questions the answer is ALL OF THAT DOES HAPPEN HERE. It has happened for the last 100 years. Why you think the US is immune to all of that only you can answer. The rich from other nations do come here for more financial protection especially the well entrenched culture of private real estate ownership.

    You may inveigh all you want about forcing the wealthy to pay a higher tax rate but they are free to leave and increasingly they do if not in person then their money. I prefer to make it a win win by giving them a strong tax incentive to invest in US job creation. That should be the goal. Meanwhile we have a government under the guise of homeland security that obstructs citizens from moving their wealth out of the country by onerous regulations on foreign banks, forcing domestic banks to report any cash transaction of $10,000 or even less, the confiscation of valuables by the TSA, etc.

    One of the few growth industries we have are the wealthy building redoubts throughout flyover country as well as overseas. That has been going on for a decade and shows no sign of slowing down. With Snowdon’s revelations and the Nat. Defense AA our rights have been shredded and the ‘legal’ denial of freedom (your very life and at a minimum liberty) based upon political view hangs by a thread for so many americans. They want to push society into revolt to solidify their power. If you think it is bad now, just wait.

    ———————-

    Well, just to philo-so-phize spontaneously on a message board — I, personally, dont think its moral or just or appropriate or kind or loving or reasonable or sensible or ok, to even HAVE ‘rich’ and ‘poor’.

    So, thats where ole curmudgeon-marxist-leftist wv-ram
    starts from. Thats my starting point. I dont think anyone
    has a right to be ‘rich’. And i don’t think anyone
    should be forced to be poor just to make others rich.

    Now, I am not saying i think its wrong for people to be safe and comfortable and have a nice home and a few luxuries. I got no problem with that. But the astounding, immoral QUALITY-OF-LIFE and QUANTITY-OF-LIFE differences that exist everyday in this nation-state
    are….hateful, vicious and repugnant. To me.

    I’m not ‘debating’ or trying to persuade. Just sharing.
    No big heavy thing.

    I’d like to take corporate-capitalism and break it into
    little pieces. I can’t, obviously. But i would 🙂

    And its not about ‘envy’ though I can see why you might think that.
    To me its simply about social justice. Having a system where Donald Trump and homeless people exist side by side, is simply Unjust. It has nothing to do with ‘envy’. Its about whats right. Social Justice. Imho.

    w
    v
    “When the rich wage war it’s the poor who die.”
    ― Jean-Paul Sartre, Le Diable Et Le Bon Dieu

    “Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate. Bertrand Russell

    “…Understanding the cultural memes that reproduce support for capitalism
    will help open the way for imagining how to get beyond capitalism. Capitalism is built around the meme of people as fundamentally separate from one another, and individual at our cores. It is built on the fusing in our imaginations of capitalism and democracy. It relies on the meme of the magical, but delicate market, a force for the conjuring up of wealth whose functioning is so fragile that any tinkering will destroy its magic. Another meme is the shadow image of the only alternative to capitalism: a police state in which people have no control over
    their own lives, where everyone is poor, and where no one has any motivation to better themselves…” Cynthia Kaufman

    #43890
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    A “free Market” is not science—it is indeed rules and regulations. . . . These are choices a society makes. Either you want a middle class or you don’t. It won’t happen by itself.

    Well, just to philo-so-phize spontaneously on a message board — I, personally, dont think its moral or just or appropriate or kind or loving or reasonable or sensible or ok, to even HAVE ‘rich’ and ‘poor’.

    w
    v

    There are ways…some of them just fantastically easy…to fix this. And even hardcore conservatives agree… like Single Payer. And…single payer doesn’t stop innovation. I go to the VA and Germany has single payer healthcare…and most of the MRI and Cat-scan and PET-scan machines are made by Siemens, a German company. The VA isn’t buying the GE machines. I dunno why. Point is that innovation can come from single-payer economies. And currently DOES.

    Governments make rules that govern commerce. And every rule ever written tilts the playing field in a certain direction.

    The only economic question, really, is how we want the playing field tilted. That’s the only question.

    In very different (though compatible) and interesting ways, everyone I quote here states a central core tenet I share with them—economies are policy-driven, not “natural.” They are shaped this way or that way…and there is nothing outside of that shaping. There’s no pure economics, just economic policies. Which as was stressed–are chosen (and then defended in terms that often disguise the choice.) And also like everyone I quote, I too think that the policy choices driving the american economy are wrong-headed and hurt the majority of the population. And that’s where ideology comes in. These policies would not be in place if they didn’t appeal to a large number of people. But most of those people not only don’t benefit from the policies in question, they are positively hurt by them. But what they THINK they are backing is “free enterprise.” What they are ACTUALLY backing is an oligarchy that dominates politics at the expense of democracy and which accumulates wealth that is NOT put to good use (the refutation of “trickle down” is that the wealthy don’t “create jobs”–they do 2 things instead–first, limit the power of labor, and second, save and earn money off of savings.) In their own way they’re no different from the landed elite that ruled England in Jane Austen’s day.

    By definition all markets are regulated exchanges.

    The “free” (non-)market is what you see in The Road Warrior.

    .

    #43891
    bnw
    Blocked

    “When the rich wage war it’s the poor who die.”
    ― Jean-Paul Sartre, Le Diable Et Le Bon Dieu

    Amen.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #43893
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    “When the rich wage war it’s the poor who die.”
    ― Jean-Paul Sartre, Le Diable Et Le Bon Dieu

    Amen.

    ————–
    I thought you would agree with that one 🙂

    I am totally in favor of helping small-independent-businesses, btw, bnw.

    What do you think of the old Marine Colonel Smedley Butler’s speech:

    The following is an excerpt from a speech he gave in 1933: Smedley Butler
    “War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

    I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we’ll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

    I wouldn’t go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

    There isn’t a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its “finger men” to point out enemies, its “muscle men” to destroy enemies, its “brain men” to plan war preparations, and a “Big Boss” Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

    It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

    I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

    I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
    During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
    ————————

    #43899
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Major General Smedley Butler got it right. So did Eisenhower when he left office.

    As for job creation, that’s just not justified by basic economics.

    Principal demands return. Period. Wages are a drag on returns and thus in maximizing returns, wages are minimized or eliminated.

    Which means, principal seeks return in which there are few people required or no people required.

    Why do you think speculative returns on Wall Street are so attractive? They can get returns and have ZERO of the drags on the net such as wages. The only thing to manage is risk which is still evident in any venture in which there are jobs, be it retail, manufacturing, service sector, health care, etc.

    Thus, the BIGGEST LIE of all is that the wealthy are job creators. They are not. The wealthy are wealth hoarders. Their investments have proven to NOT create jobs, certainly not in the US. The returns they seek are too great for that to happen here.

    The actual math is that what should have happened initially instead of some piddly little stimulus was a MASSIVE, MASSIVE stimulus in which the country borrowed at ZERO percent (the world was flooding the US with funds even then because we were one of the safe places, even still) and used the amount to rebuild our infrastructure as well as embark on much needed improvements. The amount should have been somewhere between $3-5 Trillion. Yeah…MASSIVE. Why so much???

    Well, firstly, we’re going to have to pay that bill, anyway. As Flint has shown, we’ll have to replace lead pipes all across the country and upgrade/replace outdated water treatment systems including the ability to treat for sodium which they can’t now such that some city water is technically clean, but not safe for children or heart patients/elderly people.

    Now, if we go about it the way we “rebuilt” Iraq, yeah, it wouldn’t be worth it. However, with smart project management, efficiencies can be found and executed. Understand that mostly this wouldn’t be the “government” building anything, but private firms building according to government plans or guidelines and if private contractors can build nuclear submarines and work with the government, it can work with bridges, water treatment plans and schools.

    With such an infusion in the hands of people who LIVE and WORK, the demand would be immense. At that point, it would be incumbent upon the Fed to manage inflation, Federal and state legislatures to deal with regulations to encourage entrepreneurship without selling out the environment or workers and All level of governments to FINALLY realize that creating JOBS doesn’t mean dooky squat if people can’t GET TO WORK.

    Here in Central Florida, Public Transportation is laughable. Our Criminal Governor Rick Scott torpedoed a high speed rail that was mostly paid for and was shovel ready (and I mean shovel ready in a way that isn’t hyperbole. When the I-4 was put in, it was designed with some kind of rail system in mind and even graded such that the ONLY change needed along the entire path, only one rail overpass would need to be either lifted or removed. That’s it. So, there’s no high speed rail connecting Orlando with Tampa. Orlando has more jobs and Tampa has a bunch of bedroom communities with workers. Moreover, the tourism possibilities were immense. Disney and Universal were crazy about the idea of being able to tap into the beaches of the Gulf Coast as well as the Tampa Cruise Terminal. So much synergy…

    Point being that this was just one example of MANY in which those synergies were allowed to lapse for personal gain of a few. Thus, even if an entrepreneur in Tampa or Orlando wanted to succeed, there are real barriers in place. Like…how does an employee GET to work? How do customers get to you?

    Principal doesn’t want to build public roads or bridges or sewage plants or schools or internet infrastructure or any number of other things that are critical for us as a society.

    Principal demands return like the mob. Remember Ray Liotta in Good Fellas? That’s principal. “But we need jobs.” “Fuck you, pay me.” “But we need clean water.” “Fuck you, pay me.” “But the bridges are about to collapse!” “Fuck you, pay me.”

    That’s principal. Principal is a reluctant job creator, it at all.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #43921
    bnw
    Blocked

    “When the rich wage war it’s the poor who die.”
    ― Jean-Paul Sartre, Le Diable Et Le Bon Dieu

    Amen.

    ————–
    I thought you would agree with that one 🙂

    I am totally in favor of helping small-independent-businesses, btw, bnw.

    What do you think of the old Marine Colonel Smedley Butler’s speech:

    The following is an excerpt from a speech he gave in 1933: Smedley Butler
    “War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

    I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we’ll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

    I wouldn’t go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

    There isn’t a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its “finger men” to point out enemies, its “muscle men” to destroy enemies, its “brain men” to plan war preparations, and a “Big Boss” Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

    It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

    I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

    I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
    During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
    ————————

    He had it right then and its still right now. When you ship the jobs out of the nation and actively prevent people from starting their own business the military is left as the jobs program for those incapable of paying for college. MUR-I-KA and all that.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #43922
    bnw
    Blocked

    Major General Smedley Butler got it right. So did Eisenhower when he left office.

    As for job creation, that’s just not justified by basic economics.

    Principal demands return. Period. Wages are a drag on returns and thus in maximizing returns, wages are minimized or eliminated.

    Which means, principal seeks return in which there are few people required or no people required.

    Why do you think speculative returns on Wall Street are so attractive? They can get returns and have ZERO of the drags on the net such as wages. The only thing to manage is risk which is still evident in any venture in which there are jobs, be it retail, manufacturing, service sector, health care, etc.

    Thus, the BIGGEST LIE of all is that the wealthy are job creators. They are not. The wealthy are wealth hoarders. Their investments have proven to NOT create jobs, certainly not in the US. The returns they seek are too great for that to happen here.

    The actual math is that what should have happened initially instead of some piddly little stimulus was a MASSIVE, MASSIVE stimulus in which the country borrowed at ZERO percent (the world was flooding the US with funds even then because we were one of the safe places, even still) and used the amount to rebuild our infrastructure as well as embark on much needed improvements. The amount should have been somewhere between $3-5 Trillion. Yeah…MASSIVE. Why so much???

    Well, firstly, we’re going to have to pay that bill, anyway. As Flint has shown, we’ll have to replace lead pipes all across the country and upgrade/replace outdated water treatment systems including the ability to treat for sodium which they can’t now such that some city water is technically clean, but not safe for children or heart patients/elderly people.

    Now, if we go about it the way we “rebuilt” Iraq, yeah, it wouldn’t be worth it. However, with smart project management, efficiencies can be found and executed. Understand that mostly this wouldn’t be the “government” building anything, but private firms building according to government plans or guidelines and if private contractors can build nuclear submarines and work with the government, it can work with bridges, water treatment plans and schools.

    With such an infusion in the hands of people who LIVE and WORK, the demand would be immense. At that point, it would be incumbent upon the Fed to manage inflation, Federal and state legislatures to deal with regulations to encourage entrepreneurship without selling out the environment or workers and All level of governments to FINALLY realize that creating JOBS doesn’t mean dooky squat if people can’t GET TO WORK.

    Here in Central Florida, Public Transportation is laughable. Our Criminal Governor Rick Scott torpedoed a high speed rail that was mostly paid for and was shovel ready (and I mean shovel ready in a way that isn’t hyperbole. When the I-4 was put in, it was designed with some kind of rail system in mind and even graded such that the ONLY change needed along the entire path, only one rail overpass would need to be either lifted or removed. That’s it. So, there’s no high speed rail connecting Orlando with Tampa. Orlando has more jobs and Tampa has a bunch of bedroom communities with workers. Moreover, the tourism possibilities were immense. Disney and Universal were crazy about the idea of being able to tap into the beaches of the Gulf Coast as well as the Tampa Cruise Terminal. So much synergy…

    Point being that this was just one example of MANY in which those synergies were allowed to lapse for personal gain of a few. Thus, even if an entrepreneur in Tampa or Orlando wanted to succeed, there are real barriers in place. Like…how does an employee GET to work? How do customers get to you?

    Principal doesn’t want to build public roads or bridges or sewage plants or schools or internet infrastructure or any number of other things that are critical for us as a society.

    Principal demands return like the mob. Remember Ray Liotta in Good Fellas? That’s principal. “But we need jobs.” “Fuck you, pay me.” “But we need clean water.” “Fuck you, pay me.” “But the bridges are about to collapse!” “Fuck you, pay me.”

    That’s principal. Principal is a reluctant job creator, it at all.

    Again allow the wealthy the option of lowering their ADDITIONAL tax burden by investing in US job creation.

    With all the talk about principal and Wall Street I wonder if you get it. You seem to be flying high over the problem. I only had two econ classes in college. Perhaps you had more? I’m not talking about people with the cash to invest in Wall Street. I’m not talking about Wall Street investing in private business two blocks off of Main Street either. I’m not talking about crowd source funding or any other internet access funding during the open hours of the public library either. I’m talking about businesses started out of desperation on a shoestring to bring some money in. When that effort begins to succeed the government takes notice and the regulations either end the business or forces the owner into debt to comply. That is the system in place today throughout this nation.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #43927
    Avatar photoEternal Ramnation
    Participant

    #43929
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    eat the rich youtube…

    ————–
    Nice vid.

    I’ll tell ya though, people always want to talk about
    the ‘middle-class’ and helping the middle-class. Politicians
    just love talking about the MC. But I’d prefer it
    if they’d talk more about the flat-out-Poor.

    The emphasis on the MC kinda suggests the poor
    dont ‘deserve’ help but the glorious middle-class does.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    #43937
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    #43962
    bnw
    Blocked

    I’ll tell ya though, people always want to talk about
    the ‘middle-class’ and helping the middle-class. Politicians
    just love talking about the MC. But I’d prefer it
    if they’d talk more about the flat-out-Poor.

    The emphasis on the MC kinda suggests the poor
    dont ‘deserve’ help but the glorious middle-class does.

    Middle class is the engine of job creation. It is also the largest group of consumers of means. It is also a reasonable quality of life which is why it is aspired to by the middle class and the poor. It is also a starting point with a certain level of inherent advantage in which to attain greater economic success. The concept of upward mobility is appealing to most people.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #43966
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    I’ll tell ya though, people always want to talk about
    the ‘middle-class’ and helping the middle-class. Politicians
    just love talking about the MC. But I’d prefer it
    if they’d talk more about the flat-out-Poor.

    The emphasis on the MC kinda suggests the poor
    dont ‘deserve’ help but the glorious middle-class does.

    Middle class is the engine of job creation. It is also the largest group of consumers of means. It is also a reasonable quality of life which is why it is aspired to by the middle class and the poor. It is also a starting point with a certain level of inherent advantage in which to attain greater economic success. The concept of upward mobility is appealing to most people.

    I am inclined to agree with bnw, here. And I think it is because I see the fortunes of the middle class and the poor more-or-less hitched together. You find huge disparity gaps between the rich and poor every so often. In those cases, the middle class has also been weakened like the poor. You don’t find big gaps between the middle class and poor, with the middle class’ prosperity tied to the wealthy and only the poor left behind. Unions were a great binder, but even in their absence, the two classes have more in common than they do apart in terms of the trajectories of their circumstances. I think, anyway. I think you will find that the arcs of their experience are pretty similar whereas the line denoting the wealthy will operate independently. Helping the middle class helps the poor. Helping the poor helps the middle class.

    #43984
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I’ll tell ya though, people always want to talk about
    the ‘middle-class’ and helping the middle-class. Politicians
    just love talking about the MC. But I’d prefer it
    if they’d talk more about the flat-out-Poor.

    The emphasis on the MC kinda suggests the poor
    dont ‘deserve’ help but the glorious middle-class does.

    Middle class is the engine of job creation. It is also the largest group of consumers of means. It is also a reasonable quality of life which is why it is aspired to by the middle class and the poor. It is also a starting point with a certain level of inherent advantage in which to attain greater economic success. The concept of upward mobility is appealing to most people.

    I am inclined to agree with bnw, here. And I think it is because I see the fortunes of the middle class and the poor more-or-less hitched together. You find huge disparity gaps between the rich and poor every so often. In those cases, the middle class has also been weakened like the poor. You don’t find big gaps between the middle class and poor, with the middle class’ prosperity tied to the wealthy and only the poor left behind. Unions were a great binder, but even in their absence, the two classes have more in common than they do apart in terms of the trajectories of their circumstances. I think, anyway. I think you will find that the arcs of their experience are pretty similar whereas the line denoting the wealthy will operate independently. Helping the middle class helps the poor. Helping the poor helps the middle class.

    ——————
    Well, I dont know that i agree that “helping the middle class helps the poor”.

    I’d liken the situation to…oh…a triage (sp?) situation. The poor
    are laying outside the Emergency Room, in the street, with gaping wounds and head trauma. The middle-class have the flu.

    The middle-class are worried they wont be able to send buffy to that nice college they like. The poor are on crystal meth, living in squalor, and wondering if they will be evicted tomorrow.

    And the politicians are talking about the middle-class problems.

    I’m tellin ya, i work with the poor every week, and it is
    a big ugly emergency. Never seen anything like it. Its much worse
    than ten years ago. At least thats how it is in WV.

    I think the politicians talk about the mid-class cause
    thats where the votes are. Not because of any lofty or ideological reasons.

    w
    v

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