zn wrote:

PA Ram wrote:

But who is ignoring race? Turn on CNN. Turn on MSNBC.

We are, in this discussion so far. That’s what I meant. I am aware that the mainstream media is mishandling the race issue, which means they’re talking about it.

But we would not be discussing cops at all in this thread if race (in all its complexity) had not made that the driving issue behind the entire “police” discussion.

So I was just saying that OUR discussion, right here in this thread, is leaving it out.

,

I for one am concerned about racial justice. The future of our nation is more diversity. There must be some coming together–some unity if we don’t want just a different version of what they have in Iraq and Syria(tribal conflicts where people die). Trump is the face of a white power movement–a push against things that are diverse. It is one reason I find him so horrible.

It is enough for me to vote for Hillary. Will she solve all the issues? Of course not–but I can’t stomach Trump and his rabid hate for one second. He is exactly the wrong man to lead this country.

I live in a city where I, as a white male, am a minority. My kids grew up here–they went to school here–they have grown up to appreciate diversity. I think it is something valuable they have gained by living in this community. My son has a few white acquaintances but his FRIENDS are black or Hispanic. He was with them when they were out late at night hanging in a park and the cops showed up. He saw how differently he was treated from them. He noticed. He knows what it’s like to have a black girlfriend and face racism from both sides. Yes–some of her family don’t like the idea of her being with a white guy. And he can tell when he’s being treated differently in a restaurant(he has a Virginia story on that one)because they are a mixed race couple.

I grew up right next to black and Hispanics, went to the same schools, hung out together, played together–and still–I had the fortune of growing up white. Economically I’m not so different from many in this community. But my skin color has given me advantages. I get that. There are others with my skin color who have failed. They aren’t doing so great. Most of the white guys I know who were in trouble with the police were in trouble for doing very stupid things. I know of no one personally–of either color–shot by the police. I did have one friend die by getting shot and the story there has been a bit vague over the years.

But I have not isolated myself into an all-white community. I have embraced the diversity and brought my kids up that way.

THIS is the future.

The police force MUST become more diverse. That IS important.

All races must accept that the future is one where we won’t all look alike. Segregating ourselves will only work so long. We do need unity. We especially need it because most of us share the lower economic class. Our interests overlap on many issues. We should not be each other’s enemy.

Those are some of my feelings on race.

How we relate to each other and move forward is of vital importance to this country.

My concern with the police is how we stop these deaths today. What can we do now so that we can move forward? Because we can’t move forward like this.

I don’t care if these are “difficult decisions.” You’re not supposed to have poorly trained freak out artists blowing innocent guys away because you asked him for his license.

Plus of course ignoring race in this is just failing to come to terms with the biggest issue here. These things, by measurable percentages, are just far more likely to happen to black men. That doesn’t mean the cop doing it is a ranting bigot, it means he has absorbed a lot of cultural biases and assumptions and sees danger where there is none with the black man, more often than not.

But who is ignoring race? Turn on CNN. Turn on MSNBC. Read the Huffington Post. It’s all anyone is talking about. It’s an important issue. Now what should be done? It’s easy to say “Get rid of racist cops”. Now see how that works out. Where do you start? I’m talking about practical solutions to save lives. Do we wait until everyone is holding hands and singing?

What is the quickest fix? How do we save lives now and not years from now when America somehow transforms into a more tolerant and respectful nation of different cultures?

The other day a Black Lives Matter activist was on CNN and one idea that was brought up was diversifying the police force(more black officers). Did she think this would help? Her reply was “Absolutely not.” She was asking for fundamental change in neighborhoods, economic opportunity, etc. In other words it was the big issue she was interested in without any sort of movement toward an immediate solution or even step toward a solution.

And of course we should have that. But is that going to EVER happen? And if it does, when?

What about NOW?

It is very easy to discuss all the things that should change to help lift black men and women out of poverty. But THIS issue is about black men getting killed for a traffic stop. And if you have the attitude that says “F–the police” and decide to approach the problem from one side you will get no where.

I believe the imaginary technology I described will get here before we solve the racial woes in this country. And I’m FOR racial equality. My son has a very serious relationship with an African American girl. She’s a great girl. I’m happy for them. One day maybe they’ll marry. Maybe they’ll have a child. I’m very invested in this issue. If I had a grandson one day who happened to be black I would want him to never fear for his life for getting stopped by a cop. I would want him to have social and economic justice.

But this won’t happen by snapping our fingers or just discussing it for a month or two and watching it fade away. Things have to be put in place. I don’t claim to have all the answers. Tasers–whatever. But should the first option be a lethal weapon? And in the case of sterling–no–it won’t solve every single case if the cop goes for the second option right away. And they are humans so cops will never be perfect. But they can be much better and we can save many lives.

What happens now? Today?

I guess my question would be, should the officer be thinking non-lethal weapons first? In other words–tase a guy? I know that doesn’t always work–I get that. But in the case of Castille or Sterling wouldn’t that have been a preferred option if the cop thought he was in danger? Is it always–go for the gun first?

Hey–I want no part of being a cop. I would be terrible at making a split second decision. And yes–there is the argument that a cop can’t take a chance on something non-lethal that doesn’t work and then he loses his life. And yes–non-lethal CAN be lethal. I’ve heard the argument that the non-lethal mindset gets more people tased too.

Maybe technology will eventually solve this: a non-lethal weapon that is disabling(safe for the person shot),reliable and cost effective. I don’t know how you take the edge off of police confrontations. One thing is sure. Stopping a guy because he’s black or Hispanic is just bad behavior. That’s a bad cop or bad police procedure.

Stop that sort of profiling first. The less confrontations the less these things will happen. I’ve heard stories before of quotas for writing tickets and so forth but when you stop someone for a bullshit reason the numbers of real violations are inflated and next month those numbers will be expected again. That leads to more bullshit stops.

Maybe some fundamental things need to be fixed.

But this isn’t working–for anyone.

I do appreciate the police though–the good ones. Society could not work without them.

But we have to solve this.

nittany ram wrote:

Zooey wrote:

bnw wrote:

J.R.R. Tolkien had more than a few.

Yeah, I’m not riding with you in this posse.

I think Tolkien’s interesting characters begin and end with Gollum.

Everyone else is just a Type, imo. No complexity of character.

I think Tolkien’s genius/appeal was in the History he constructed for everything. He is the first writer to really create an alternate world.

And. I think that if Tolkien published his books for the first time today, they would largely be ignored. He did some ground breaking fictional work, but he wasn’t a great writer. He was merely the first writer to open the door to an alternate reality that had bones.

I think most of the stuff written in the fantasy/sci-fi/horror genres are more story driven than character driven. Exceptions would be stuff by Kurt Vonnegut and Stephen King.

Poe wrote character driven stuff, IMO.

Also–Peter Straub is a lot like King in that regard.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 6 months ago by PA Ram.

Zooey wrote:

I like Shaw a lot.

But he sure did have a case of penis envy when it came to Shakespeare.

That is ridiculous. Shakespeare had faith, hope, courage, conviction, and he did a lot of it in iambic pentameter. “Death made sensational?” Where, in theatre, is death NOT sensational? I don’t even understand what that is supposed to mean, or why it would be a criticism.

Ah, fuck him.

ZN is right. The characters. The characters.

Go ahead and think of the greatest writers of all time. How many great characters can you attribute to them?

Mark Twain had Huckleberry Finn.

Hawthorne had Hester Prynne. Steinbeck had a handful. Tennessee Williams, Arthur Miller, August Wilson, GB Shaw. These guys all had a few.

Shakespeare…where to start? He created distinct, individual characters who are not just “types,” who endure forever. Hamlet, Falstaff, Mercutio, Portia, Shylock, Iago, Macbeth, Lear, ohmygod, I could keep typing for ten minutes. While most great writers are happy with one or two characters that leave a lasting impression, Shakespeare probably has 100. The only writer I think who could fill all ten fingers is Dickens. Dickens created a lot of memorable characters. His stories sucked, but he had characters.

I often introduce Shakespeare to my students by telling them that I thought Shakespeare was over-rated when I started college. I thought he was just romanticized by the academic elites who loved the pumpkin pants, and the extended pinkie finger, and the Queen, and crumpets and stuff. And then I started to study him. And I slowly came around to believing in Shakespeare. And then I started REALLY studying Shakespeare when I had to teach his plays, and that’s when I realized that – if anything – the greatest writer in the world is Underrated. I think he is better than people credit him for being. Shakespeare isn’t just the greatest writer who ever lived. He is the greatest writer by a spacious distance.

Anyway.

Don’t trash Shakespeare around me.

I hate rude behavior in a man. I won’t tolerate it.

To be fair, he’s no Emily Dickenson.

bnw wrote:

False Flag.

That’s tin foil hat stuff.

There are seriously people who believe Sandy Hook didn’t happen. The world is coming apart at the seams and this is part of the problem. People create their own realities and boogeymen now—and the media does what it can to stoke those feelings because when stuff like this happens–hey it’s great for ratings.

It’s times like this I wonder why I had kids. I love them and would never regret having them–but I feel for them and what looks like a dismal future.

This generation is an incredible failure.

Well the next step for evolution in terms of humans at least is robots…machines. We move from biological to the next stage. At least our information does–and that’s sort of what it’s all about anyway–right?

IF computers, robots, etc. ever do develop a “consciousness” of some sort–well, we’re doomed. And even if they don’t—as humans extinguish themselves from the face of the planet they will still want to leave these representations behind–because we certainly believe we’re the best and deserve to go on forever in one form or another. And of course God says so anyway.

But this all gives me an excuse to post the trailer for “Westworld”. I give you our future:

wv wrote:

Well, it will be interesting to observe the ‘reactions’ to the new President.
What will be the reaction/results of four years of Trump, or Hillary?
Will they galvanize a new opposition force?
And which one will ‘get the most done’ whatever that may be…?

w
v

I see Clinton as having another Obama sort of turn. There will be constant obstruction by the Republicans to almost anything she wants to do(except the bad stuff of course)and I do see her more hawkish(cause she hasn’t learned any lessons there)and I can see her suddenly signing on to the trade agreements because she’ll tell us that THIS time they’re good deals for America. So things will pretty much stay the same, except for whatever trouble she decides to stir up internationally. Maybe more hawkish in some scary places–like the Ukraine? Syria? Hope not. Just don’t know.

Trump? Pick a day. Pick a moment. He has no real plan beyond looking for opportunities to enrich himself. I think he’ll like trade deals just fine as long as they work for him. I don’t believe a populist word that comes out of his mouth. I think he’ll just give the Republicans what they want on some things(Supreme Court Justices) and on others he’ll be at odds with them but I have no idea. Who is Trump? What is he? What does he want? All I can do is look at his con-man history and think that we won’t know until he does it. Will it be reckless? Sure. He isn’t a deep thinker about such things. Who knows what he’ll do or which direction he’ll go?

I think his presidency will have one great theme:how does it benefit Trump? The other stuff will just be given away for others to deal with or he just won’t care or offer window dressing.

I think four years of Trump could open the door to the most corrupt politician ever to sit in the White House. And Hillary might be a close second.

America doesn’t win here. No matter what.

Zooey wrote:

Drought, you know. Brown is the new green in California.

I get it, I get it.

But if some of you Californians would drink just a little less we could have a brilliant green field. Save the water for important things: like football. And stop being so selfish.

We just took my son and daughter out to dinner with some family.

I do know some people who had parties though.

I do like the thicker horn, I won’t lie.

But more important to me is the godawful colors. Go to the blue and white or the blue and yellow but get rid of the current color scheme as soon as possible.

Maybe I’m in the minority here but I see gun control as a huge issue. And the tired old argument of “they’ll get guns anyway” never cut it for me. While that may be true to some degree–I don’t completely buy it. Why have laws against cocaine? They’ll get it anyway. Rape? They’ll do it anyway. Even murder? If the answer is, “they’ll get guns anyway” well–why have any laws on the books?

You try.

That’s the bottom line for me.

There is just a deeply entrenched gun-loving culture in this country. And that goes for Democrats and Republicans. People hug their guns and hug them even tighter in times of crises. After every mass shooting gun sales go up. And most of that is fear of the government. These people are terrified the government will ban everything and they won’t get to buy their guns for burying in the yard so that they’re ready to go to war with their government over their right to buy more guns.

I find it sad.

Look–whenever this happens anyone who is pro gun control HAS to make sure they first throw out the disclaimer that: I don’t want to take away your guns. I just want common sense legislation. And it doesn’t matter.

If I could wave a magic wand and get rid of all the guns–I’d do it.

But I’m not an idiot. We will always live with guns. I get that. I even accept that.

But if we can’t have some sort of intelligent restrictions we are lost.

I’d be willing to bet that the victim’s families of that nightclub massacre could care less right now about corporate-capitalist arguments. Of course that’s a huge issue. But if we can’t even pass sensible gun control we have zero chance against the other thing. Zero.

I think of my son or daughter or wife being in the wrong place at the wrong time when some maniac who was easily able to walk into a store and walk out with a very efficient killing machine with out so much as a waiting period decides to strike and I get furious. That we accept this? That we live with this?

I’m sorry. I’ll never go there.

Fuck the NRA.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by PA Ram.