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  • in reply to: Sports and the Protests #115747
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    in reply to: Sports and the Protests #115746
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    y to post it again in the new spot.) So it’s up to you, whether you would like it there (in the thread already going) or here (as a new separate thread).

    Let’s just leave it here. I gave you the wrong link (sometimes when I copy a link it doesn’t and just uses the one I had copied before.) That’s on me and it’s too much fuss. It’s fine. I will bring stuff from the Rams forum thread to this thread and make the other one a Rams only thread on the protests. Thanks for pitching in and being helpful WV, I appreciate it.

    in reply to: Sports and the Protests #115743
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    ==============

    Ok. Go ahead and move it.

    w
    v

    I can’t move posts. Only the poster can do that (the method being simply to post it again in the new spot.) So it’s up to you, whether you would like it there (in the thread already going) or here (as a new separate thread).

    in reply to: Sports and the Protests #115733
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    Actually a link to Coach Lynn talking is in the NFL/protests thread on the other forum. WV I think this vid belongs there: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/rams-on-floyd-protests/#post-115720

    in reply to: Rams on Floyd & the protests #115720
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    Stu Jackson@StuJRams
    Sean McVay’s full opening statement from this afternoon’s virtual media session:

    ==

    in reply to: the Swann Street siege story … 6/2 #115715
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    in reply to: International responses to the Protests #115713
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    Tremayne Anchrum is Ready to Battle for Any Position Available

    Yeah that’s a good vid.

    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115699
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    De-escalation Keeps Protesters And Police Safer. Departments Respond With Force Anyway.
    Three federal commissions concluded that when police escalate force those efforts can often go wrong, creating the very violence that force was meant to prevent.

    link https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/de-escalation-keeps-protesters-and-police-safer-heres-why-departments-respond-with-force-anyway/

    MINNEAPOLIS — Last Wednesday, Marcell Harris was hit by a rubber bullet. He had joined the second day of protests in this city over the killing of George Floyd, a black man who died after a police officer kneeled on his neck for more than eight minutes while bystanders filmed. Though these protests began with peaceful demonstrations outside the city’s 3rd Precinct, interactions between police and protesters had escalated. Police unleashed pepper spray, projectiles and tear gas. Protesters threw water bottles, built barricades and destroyed nearby property.

    Harris said he had used his backpack as a shield and maneuvered close enough to take the baton of the officer who shot him. On Thursday night, he returned to the same spot to watch the precinct burn. With no police presence to be seen, he and other protesters were celebrating a victory. “I’m nonviolent,” he said. “But this feels emotional. George Floyd popped the bubble. It feels like the beginning of the end.” The end of what? “What we’ve been going through,” he said, referring to heavy-handed and often deadly policing of African Americans. “All the bullshit.”

    Watching a peaceful protest turn into something much less palatable is hard. There has been a lot of hard the past few days, as people in dozens of cities have released pent-up anger against discriminatory police tactics. Cars and buildings have burned. Store windows have been smashed. Protesters and police have been hurt. When protests take a turn like this we naturally wonder … why? Was this preventable? Does anyone know how to stop it from happening?

    Turns out, we do know some of these answers. Researchers have spent 50 years studying the way crowds of protesters and crowds of police behave — and what happens when the two interact. One thing they will tell you is that when the police respond by escalating force — wearing riot gear from the start, or using tear gas on protesters — it doesn’t work. In fact, disproportionate police force is one of the things that can make a peaceful protest not so peaceful. But if we know that (and have known that for decades), why are police still doing it?

    “There’s this failed mindset of ‘if we show force, immediately we will deter criminal activity or unruly activity’ and show me where that has worked,” said Scott Thomson, the former chief of police in Camden, New Jersey.

    “That’s the primal response,” he said. “The adrenaline starts to pump, the temperature in the room is rising, and you want to go one step higher. But what we need to know as professionals is that there are times, if we go one step higher, we are forcing them to go one step higher.”

    Interactions between police and protesters are, by their very nature, tough to study. Even when researchers get a good vantage point to observe protests in the real world — for example, by embedding within a crowd — the data that comes out is more descriptive and narrative as opposed to quantitative. Some kinds of protests are highly organized with top-down plans that are months in the making. Others, like many of the events across America this past week, are spontaneous outpourings of grief and anger. The social and political context of the time and place also affect what happens. Even a single protest isn’t really a single protest. “You have lots of mini protests happening in many places,” said Edward Maguire, a professor of criminology and criminal justice at Arizona State University. “There’s different dynamics. Some peaceful. Some not. And different police tactics.” In Baltimore on Saturday, for example, a police lieutenant mollified a crowd by reading out loud the names of victims of police brutality, while protesters outside City Hall threw bottles at police in riot gear and police used tear gas on the crowd, WBFF-TV reported.

    But just because there’s no data about protests that can be easily compared in a chart doesn’t mean we’re bereft of information, said Pat Gillham, a professor of sociology at Western Washington University. There’s 50 years of research on violence at protests, dating back to the three federal commissions formed between 1967 and 1970. All three concluded that when police escalate force — using weapons, tear gas, mass arrests and other tools to make protesters do what the police want — those efforts can often go wrong, creating the very violence that force was meant to prevent. For example, the Kerner Commission, which was formed in 1967 to specifically investigate urban riots, found that police action was pivotal in starting half of the 24 riots the commission studied in detail. It recommended that police eliminate “abrasive policing tactics” and that cities establish fair ways to address complaints against police.

    Experts say the following decades of research have turned up similar findings. Escalating force by police leads to more violence, not less. It tends to create feedback loops, where protesters escalate against police, police escalate even further, and both sides become increasingly angry and afraid.

    Escalating force by police leads to more violence, not less, and tends to create feedback loops, where protesters escalate against police, police escalate even further, and both sides become increasingly angry and afraid.

    “Do we know [this] in the way that you know if you put two chemicals together things explode?” said John Noakes, professor of sociology, anthropology and criminal justice at Arcadia University. “No. But there is a general consensus.”

    De-escalation, of course, does not guarantee that a protest will remain peaceful, and when protests take an unpredictable turn, it can be challenging for police to estimate the appropriate level of force.

    Former law-enforcement officials also said good policing of demonstrations isn’t as simple as just showing up with an approachable demeanor. “The time to make friends isn’t when you need them,” Thomson said. “You have to be in front of it.”

    James Ginger, a veteran police monitor who is now overseeing the Albuquerque Police’s settlement with the U.S. Department of Justice, agreed that only this longer-term trust-building exercise works. “Trying to find folks at the last minute that you can put out there in soft clothes and talk to people, frankly and in my opinion, wouldn’t work that well,” Ginger said. “You’ve got to till the soil before you can grow the beans.”

    Still, if researchers know it’s not a good idea for police to use force against protests and demonstrations, and that information has been available for decades, why do we still see situations like this happening all over the country?

    That part is harder to answer. At one point, in the 1980s and 1990s, many police departments in the U.S. did try different strategies, Noakes and Maguire said. The “negotiated management” model of protest policing called for officers to meet with protesters in advance to plan events together to specify the times, locations and activities that would happen, even when that included mass arrests.

    “There was a time when the playbook was much more straightforward. The police would meet with the organizers of the protest, and they would lay out ground rules together that would provide for an opportunity for protesters to do exactly what they have a right to do,” said Ronal Serpas, a former police chief in New Orleans and Nashville who’s now a professor of criminology at Loyola University in New Orleans.

    But the era of negotiated management basically fell apart after the World Trade Organization protests in Seattle in 1999, when protesters blocked streets, broke windows and successfully shut down the WTO meeting and stalled trade talks. When protesters violated the negotiated terms, police responded with tear gas and rubber bullets and took away the wrong lessons, Maguire said. “What a lot of people took from that in policing is, we can’t trust these people. We need to be smarter and overwhelm them to nip these things in the bud,” he said. “We sort of went backwards.”

    Of course, as Gillham pointed out, negotiating and managing a protest can’t really work if the protest wasn’t organized ahead of time. That goes double, he said, if the topic of the protest is police brutality. It’s hard to negotiate with someone about the best way to demand they be fired.

    Instead, it’s become normal in the U.S. for police departments to revert to tactics that amplify tensions and provoke protesters, Maguire said, including wearing intimidating tactical gear before its use would be warranted. Maguire does training for police officers and has tried, for years, to get buy-in on the idea that there could be a different way. “I have good relationships with police and I’ve been working with them for 25 years, and I’ve never experienced pushback like I do on this,” Maguire said.

    De-escalation strategies definitely exist. Anne Nassauer, a professor of sociology at Freie Universität in Berlin, has studied how the Berlin Police Department handles protests and soccer matches. She found that one key element is transparent communication — something Nassauer said helps increase trust and diffuse potentially tense moments. The Berlin police employs people specifically to make announcements in these situations, using different speakers, with local accents or different languages, for things like information about what police are doing, and another speaker for commands. Either way, the messages are delivered in a calm, measured voice.

    Communication is also a cornerstone of what police know as “the Madison Model,” created by former Madison, Wisconsin, chief of police David Couper. His strategy for dealing with protesters was to send officers out to talk with demonstrators, engage, ask them why protests are made, listen to their concerns and, above all, empathize.

    Not all police officers trust this model, however. “When you have overly aggressive crowds you have to address them,” said Anthony Batts, who led departments in Long Beach and Oakland, California, as well as Baltimore. Batts was police commissioner during the violent clashes between police and protesters that followed the 2015 death of Freddie Gray in Baltimore police custody.

    Reached by text, Batts said that certain events, like fires and police retreats, “inspire” crowds. He said from his point of view, methods like the Madison model make crowds “go ballistic.”

    A lot of this pushback from police has to do with some legitimate officer safety concerns related to de-escalation, Maguire said. “But we make the argument that [de-escalation] makes officers more safe, by reducing violent confrontations with protesters. If officers come into a situation already wearing protective body armor and face shields, that can make protesters feel uncomfortable and under attack long before there’s any kind of confrontation,” Maguire said.

    “When I had the opportunity to build a new police department, I was able to do in three days what would normally take me three years to do.”
    It’s also just hard to change police culture. Maguire compared it to trying to change hospital procedures by using evidence-based medicine. Even if the evidence is, “don’t perform this surgery in that way or someone could die,” it can still take 20 years for the new technique to be widely adopted.

    The disconnect between rank and file and executive leadership — commonly cited as an impediment to policing reform — also seems to get in the way of improving policing of protests. Take the Atlanta Police Department as an example. On Saturday the city’s chief Erika Shields earned plaudits for meeting face to face with protesters, empathizing with their grief and fear, and even reprimanding some of her own officers: “I’m standing here because what I saw was my people face to face with this crowd and everyone is thinking, ‘How can we use force to diffuse it,’ and I’m not having that.” But mere hours later, her department was trending on social media again — this time because officers had used tasers to force two college students out of their vehicle, even though they did not appear to be posing any threat.

    That, experts say, speaks to a cultural attitude that is endemic to the profession, and is hard to change with new chiefs or rules.

    Thomson encountered this when he tried to make change in Camden. The police department was so dysfunctional that the city took the unprecedented step of disbanding the force and reconstituting a whole new agency from scratch. “When I had the opportunity to build a new police department, I was able to do in three days what would normally take me three years to do, because of work rules, because of the bureaucracy of collective bargaining agreements — there are a lot of impediments to reform,” Thomson said.

    Couper, the creator of the Madison Method, said, “It’s this whole attitude of, ‘We keep order because we kick ass, and it’s us against them.’ (…) We’ve got to root those people out and say, ‘Look, this is the job that we expect. This is how a democracy is policed. If you can’t buy into it. I’m sorry. You just have to find another job.’”

    in reply to: tweets … 6/2 thru 6/5 #115698
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    from https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2020/06/02/rams-david-long-cornerback-year-2-splash/

    In a recent interview with TheRams.com, Long explained his goals for the 2020 season and what he took away from his rookie year.

    “My goal this season is be the best player I can be and really bring everything together. Last season I had a learning curve and progressed well, but I feel I now have the experience and skill set to be the player others have envisioned me to be and more,” Long said. “I also have a better understanding of what to expect, having a year under my belt. Things like lifting, workouts, diets…I just know what my body needs and what I need to get going. I also have a better understanding of the game of football spending a year with Eric Weddle and a good deal of time with Aqib and Marcus in the meeting room. I had a lot of these things last year, but I had to endure a learning curve and get my feet under me. So now I feel ready to make my splash and become a name amongst numbers.”

    in reply to: Rams on Floyd & the protests #115697
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    Jourdan Rodrigue@JourdanRodrigue
    Sean McVay opens today by saying his thoughts and prayers are with the family of George Floyd.

    The team dedicated their meetings yesterday to letting players speak, grieve, share experiences, learn from each other, lean on each other and listen.

    More on this soon.

    Greg Beacham@gregbeacham
    The Rams had a team meeting yesterday to talk about George Floyd and the situation in the nation, Sean McVay says: “It was really powerful, the amount of guys that had the strength to stand up to share their experiences. You talk about an amazing learning experience for me.”

    in reply to: International responses to the Protests #115694
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    in reply to: So what can the protestors accomplish? #115687
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    The protestors SAY they want change. They rejected change.

    We don’t know that those are the same people. And–while a lot of the protestors are black, a lot of them are young whites. There are a lot of mixed race protest crowds out there. And then many of the black protestors may have been Bernie-ites for all we know. From what I gather Biden’s huge advantage was with southern blacks, and from what I saw that was because of Obama loyalty.

    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115684
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    Well, thats true. And its also true that it will just picked-up-on by the media and police and the politicians as a nice photo-op and as an example of change.

    w
    v

    Which is good too. It encourages more of the same.

    We have plenty of time for the Revolution. In the meanwhile, right now, it’s helps if police start thinking twice about killing unarmed black men.

    A journey of a thousand miles begins by finding your shoes.

    ….

    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115665
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    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115664
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    The thing is…police taking a knee does zero to change institutional racism. Ya know. We need actual policy changes. When will ‘that’ happen?

    Of course.

    But it’s better that this happens than it doesn’t.

    For one thing, this (the police joining protests) is breaking up a lot of the old narratives. Like, the “people have to stop this war on police” thing I hear around in places. Simple response–some police hear the protestors and they know it’s not a war on them.

    in reply to: “who R the Rams in 2020” type articles #115662
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    ==

    Peter King from https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/06/01/nfl-power-rankings-fmia-peter-king-2/

    16. Los Angeles Rams (9-7)
    I like them more than most. But in reality, it’s hard to know what to make of this team after the major makeover this year. Has there been a team in NFL history with a coaching braintrust this young—Sean McVay 34, offensive coordinator Kevin O’Connell 35, defensive coordinator Brandon Staley 37? If the Rams return to the playoffs this year, Jared Goff will have to have a turnaround season, and that’s an iffy proposition. He was a confident mad bomber as the Rams marauded their way to Super Bowl contention in 2018 and has looked more tentative since. (First 11 games of 2018: 26 TDs, 6 interceptions. Twenty-four games since: 29-24.) Remember that Thursday night game against Minnesota early in 2018, when Goff threw high arcing bombs to Cooper Kupp and Brandin Cooks? Lovely. On-target. Bill Walsh used to have a saying (and he taught his scouts this), If I’ve seen a guy do it a few times on tape, it’s up to us as coaches to get him to do it that way all the time. That’s why the Niners drafted the inconsistent Charles Haley out of James Madison; Haley flashed a few times in college and Walsh thought they could get that out of him consistently.

    Solidifying the middle of the line, which the Rams think they’ve done after last year’s interior mess on offense, should help Goff. And I think the addition of O’Connell, who can be the alter-ego of McVay and a hard teacher like him, gives Goff a good chance to reclaim what he had. We’ll see. All that’s riding on Goff is the near future of the new anchor tenant of SoFi Stadium, the first new NFL palace to be built in Los Angeles since forever.

    in reply to: signs, comics, memes, & other visual aids #115661
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    in reply to: signs, comics, memes, & other visual aids #115653
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    Bern It Down@clenchner
    I’ll believe ANTIFA is a terrorist organization when the CIA starts arming it.

    in reply to: Floyd: contradictory autopsies #115647
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    from George Floyd was killed in a homicide caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression, an independent autopsy found

    link https://www.businessinsider.nl/george-floyd-autopsy-cause-death-asphyxia-neck-back-compression-ben-crump-2020-6/

    Ben Crump, an attorney representing Floyd’s family, announced in a Facebook Live broadcast on Monday that an independent autopsy found that Floyd, 46, was killed by asphyxia due to compression of the neck and back.

    “We acknowledge that additional medical information including toxicology and further investigation are necessary for a final report,” said Dr. Allecia Wilson, the director of autopsy and forensic services at the University of Michigan. “However, the evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of death and homicide as the manner of death.”

    Antonio Romanucci, another attorney working with the family, said two “physical mechanisms” killed Floyd, calling it “the lowest level of human respect and dignity that any community should ever have to endure.”

    ‘The ambulance was his hearse’

    The weight of the arresting officer Derek Chauvin’s knee on Floyd’s neck – as well as the knees of two other officers who pressed on Floyd’s back – stopped not only “blood flow into his brain, but also airflow into his lungs,” Romanucci said.

    “For George Floyd, the ambulance was his hearse,” Crump said. “Beyond question, he would be alive today if not for the pressure applied to his neck by fired officer Derek Chauvin and the strain on his body from the two additional officers kneeing him in his back.”

    Dr. Michael Baden, a prominent forensic pathologist, added: “The compressive pressure of the neck and back are not seen at autopsy because the pressure has been released by the time the body comes to the medical examiner’s office. It can only be seen – serious compressive pressure on the neck and back can only be seen while the pressure’s being applied or when, as in this instance, it is captured on video.”

    Floyd was arrested on May 25 outside Cup Foods after police officers arrived to investigate reports of a forgery. Surveillance footage obtained by NBC News showed that he was sitting in a parked car with a man and a woman. Officers approached the car and led them out of it. Floyd was handcuffed and led across the street to a police cruiser, out of the frame of the security camera.

    The activist Shaun King on Saturday shared a video from another vantage point that appeared to show Floyd struggling with three policemen in the back seat of a squad car while a fourth stood nearby with his hands tucked in his pockets, keeping watch.

    After that scuffle, Chauvin pinned Floyd down on the road by his neck. Floyd repeated, “Please, I can’t breathe,” to which Chauvin replied, “Relax.”

    The new autopsy contradicts claims from local prosecutors

    Baden said Floyd was “motionless” and “lifeless” after about four minutes. An incident report from the Minneapolis Fire Department said that Floyd didn’t respond to chest compressions or electric shock.

    “Unfortunately, many police are under the impression if you can talk, that means you’re breathing. That is not true,” Baden said, adding that people like Floyd and Eric Garner should be taken seriously when they say they’re struggling for breath.

    These findings contradict a criminal complaint by the Hennepin County Attorney’s Office that said there were “no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.”

    Floyd had “underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease,” the office’s report said, adding that “the combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death.”

    Baden said that, however, based on information provided by the victim’s family, Floyd “had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death,” adding that he “was in good health.”

    New information from the Hennepin County medical examiner both echoes and disputes what Crump shared

    A few hours after Crump’s news conference, the Hennepin County medical examiner reiterated Wilson’s finding that Floyd died by homicide and described the cause of death as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”

    Floyd sustained this injury “while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s),” a press release said. The medical examiner countered Baden’s assertion that Floyd had no preexisting health conditions, listing “arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease,” “fentanyl intoxication,” and “recent methamphetamine use.”

    Asked by CNN anchor Erin Burnett if the presence of these chemicals in Floyd’s body had any relevance to the case, Romanucci said no. He described the police killing as a “but for” case, meaning Floyd would still be alive “but for” the fact that he was so forcefully subdued by Minneapolis policemen that it prompted him to call out the name of his deceased mother.

    All four officers involved in Floyd’s death have been fired, and Chauvin was charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter.

    Romanucci said they were all “criminally liable and, without a doubt, civilly responsible.”

    “Make no mistake about this: This case is about the Minneapolis Police Department and Derek Chauvin and the shameless standby police officers who were on scene who had every opportunity to stop and prevent a senseless death, a needless one” – but didn’t, he said.

    Floyd’s family requested the second, independent autopsy. Crump said that the findings would cause them distress but that it was vital for the pursuit of justice.

    He said it was “essential that the truth comes out” about the “exact manner and science as to how George Floyd was killed.”

    Crump used the opportunity to encourage people standing in solidarity with the Floyd family to do so peacefully.

    “Had George been alive today and it was some other person, an unarmed, nonthreatening person of color who had been unnecessarily and unjustifiably and senselessly killed by the police,” Crump said, he would have been “praying for peace.”

    Crump thanked protesters for pushing for change and said the Floyd family understood the “righteous anger” that’s played out across the United States over the past week. However, he said, “the violence is absolutely unacceptable.”

    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115646
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    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115645
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    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115644
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    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115641
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    in reply to: cap info (June) #115638
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    from https://www.lasportsreport.com/rams/213712/rams-news-la-to-receive-5-5-million-in-cap-space-on-tuesday-after-todd-gurley-release/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rams-news-la-to-receive-5-5-million-in-cap-space-on-tuesday-after-todd-gurley-release&fbclid=IwAR09Chrto7_5pezTiW4O2SlloUgO5nTG-9MRXgG6RwMTvOBcxMVnhCcH5UY

    The team is currently sitting at $569,000 in cap space, but come Tuesday the number will grow to over $6 million. The team’s rookie class remains largely unsigned, and this will be the first order of business with the incoming cash flow.

    Some fans were disappointed when the team released Gurley, but the financial impact was clear. With multiple young players that will soon need extensions, it was simply finding the odd man out. Gurley’s injury history made the decision simple for the team….

    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115637
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    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115636
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    in reply to: Police & protestors — conflicting images #115634
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Viewing 30 posts - 20,731 through 20,760 (of 47,646 total)