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znModeratorThey have Westbrooks as the highest rated 4/3 DE of the entire pre-season.
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znModeratorBut the Rams still should plan for a future with no Bradford. If that is in free agency then great. Or if it is their first round draft choice then that is fine too. But it is time to accept that the future is not likely Bradford.
I know, and I accounted for that. I said sign a free agent or draft a guy. Let’s say they do that and Bradford can’t play. They lose nothing. Let’s say they do that and he can play. Then they’re in a win/win scenario. My point was not about moving on or not moving on, it was about making the best of resources. In this scenario, if at any given point he can’t go, you’re covered.
Saying this isn’t about being a “supporter,” it’s thinking about the best possibilities for the team. One good possibility is that you rehabilitate and “Plunkett” a player who has a rifle arm, knows the system, knows the receivers, and is deadly in the redzone. If that doesn;t work it’s on to Plan B, without losing anything in the process.
znModeratorMackeyser wrote:
Hearing Fisher say, “We will rally around Shaun Hill”…The parallelism of that, with Fisher replacing Vermeil…is just staggering.
I’m almost MORE excited now…
I said the same last night, in full sarcasm mode, when I thought it was a much less serious injury. I am disgusted and disappointed by the fact that sarcasm has become reality.
In such a competitive division, this is a season ender for the team IMO. As it was, Bradford would have had to have had a superior season to give them a chance. I see no way that Hill magically become a great QB after enough seasons to show he is average at best.
Another wasted season and the accompanying purchase from DirectTV to make it a financial waste too.
I dunno RM. Last year the receivers weren’t as good, they only really had Stacy, and Clemens wasn’t even as good as Hill. They still beat 2 play off teams. This year the running attack is strong, Hill is better than Clemens, and both through addition and maturation the receivers are much better. The division games to worry about are the 4 against SF and Seattle. Against ARz and all non-division teams, ie. the other 12 games, they are still capable of doing what they did last year to the Colts and Saints. They probably can’t take the division, but then this is an insanely good division. They still have a chance to be play best season since….um…. (?) oh yeah, 2004.
znModeratorI don’t see that they necessarily walk away from Bradford even next year. Think how much football they have invested in him. Really, it would be his 4th year in the system and if he CAN play eventually then they gain and don’t lose anything. So let’s say it does take a year to rehab. Then he’s on the roster as a 3rd qb until he proves he can or cannot go. And then they do a couple of the following things: re-sign Hill, sign a free agent, make a trade, or draft someone high or in round 2.
If Bradford makes it through that season as your back-up, then you stand back and re-evaluate. Or maybe he ends up taking the field halfway through the season, for example replacing HIll while a rookie sits.
We honestly don’t know if he can come back from this because we don’t know what updated rehab techniques can do.
In a situation like that they lose nothing, really.
Cap space? Ask him to renegotiate. My bet is he would get that, and is past worrying abut money, he would want a “prove I’m back” year rather than money.
znModerator“We will rally around Shaun Hill, and sack Russel Wilson.”
znModeratorOn the game vid we have (linked here) – Hill plays from around 24:49-34:42. So if you just want to scout Hill a bit, that’s the time frame. After that it’s all Davis then Gilbert.
Game is here if you haven’t seen it yet:
http://theramshuddle.com/topic/the-browns-game-here-w-cleveland-announcers/
Meanwhile, here are some numbers, fwiw.
His last season playing was 2010. He played 10 games. Detroit went 3-7 when he played, and 3-3 with Stanton and Stafford.
Detroit had a mediocre running game (Jahvid Best and Maurice Morris), and were third in the league in passing attempts. They did have Calvin Johnson and Nate Burleson.
Hill, percentage of total attempts per range
Under 10 yards to at or behind the LOS: 69.3% (high end of normal for this range compared to most)
11-20 yards: 21.2% (high end of normal for this range)
21-30 yards: 7.4% (high end of normal for this range)
31+ yards: 2.1% (pretty low)Completion percentage
Under 10 yards to at or behind the LOS: 72%
11-20 yards: 40%
21-30 yards: 32%
31+ yards: 0%You have to consider 21+ yarders his long ball.
TD% inside the 10: 29%. Low.
Compared to Clemens last year:
Percentage of total attempts per range
Under 10 yards to at or behind the LOS: 62.4%
11-20 yards: 27.7%
21-30 yards: 5.8%
31+ yards: 2.9%Completion percentage
Under 10 yards to at or behind the LOS: 68.2%
11-20 yards: 50.7%
21-30 yards: 28.6%
31+ yards: 14%TD% inside the 10: 31.2%
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znModeratorWhen Bradford got hurt his salary for this year just got guaranteed. So the Rams would not save anything by cutting him (if they can.) Could they trade him? Yes. But who would trade for him. My guess his trade value is pretty close to zero. Even if he recovers and passes all medical tests before the draft I doubt he would have much of a trade value given his salary for next year.
His salary is guaranteed even though he hasn’t made the 53 yet? I didn’t know that.
August 24, 2014 at 9:18 pm in reply to: who should start? will they trade for someone? who? qb discussion #4935znModeratorznModeratorWhat are the Cap ramifications of cutting Bradford?
With this injury, it has to be a concern, what’s the cap cost? It may be necessary going forward if the Rams need to make a move…
They would save 10 M this year.
But I don’t know what they would do with the money, exactly, and that would be such a cold thing. I can’t see a Fisher-led team doing that to someone they stood behind like they did with him.
I wouldn’t want them trading for anyone…they need the picks. So they don’t need space for a trade.
August 24, 2014 at 8:55 pm in reply to: who should start? will they trade for someone? who? qb discussion #4925znModeratorzn wrote:
And, Fisher has said, it is not true that they’ve looked at anyone. So Wagoner has his facts wrong. They might do it–but, they haven’t at this point.I am not sure Fisher’s public denial proves that Wagoner has wrong facts.
Personally, I feel that, if the FO ISN’T pursuing viable options like Sanchez, they aren’t showing due diligence. I would really hate to believe it.
Well, honestly, I believe Fisher. I honestly think that each time we have seen Fisher shoot down a rumor in the past, it has been credible, and backed up by subsequent events.
But you;re right that I put it categorically as if all the fact were in front of me when I should have just said Fisher says X, and I believe Fisher.
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This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by
zn.
August 24, 2014 at 8:35 pm in reply to: who should start? will they trade for someone? who? qb discussion #4917znModeratorNot a fan of Mark Sanchez but I think he’d be okay as Hill’s backup for this season. He is a solid citizen. But would philly even consider trading him for a pick and then it depends on what the cost is – a fourth round pick isn’t that much to pay for a quality backup. the question with Sanchez is – is he a quality backup?
And, Fisher has said, it is not true that they’ve looked at anyone. So Wagoner has his facts wrong. They might do it–but, they haven’t at this point.
znModeratorIf the line holds… which is funny because the weak link was Jake Long and that won’t be the case long… then Shaun Hill may just have a career year.
He’s got the best OL, best RB corps and best SET of WRs he’s ever had AND the ability to start as the starter from the beginning.
With a Defense that shouldn’t make him play from behind, he should have all the support he needs to be very good this year.
I think he could EASILY be a 90+ rated QB with 30TDs and about 12 INTs, give or take.
I have some minor quibbles with that. I think more INTs. And the long and medium pass won’t be there like it should. But mostly, I agree.
znModeratorThat was a once in a century situation. Ain’t gonna happen again.
Ah! BUT. It’s a different century now.
So, they’re due.
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znModeratorI really liked the Hill signing.
He had a decent 80 rating in the
year he started a lot, as i recall.An 85 rating this year, might still
get the Rams nine or ten wins.Its not out of the question.
Anyway, what are his strengths and weaknesses?
At any rate, thank goodness
Snisher signed a veteran.
I would not want a rookie
they drafted this year,
starting.w
vDid you see the game? I think you knew we had it posted.
That’s Hill.
He is, as you see him in that video.
I forget how long he plays. Maybe later I will check the beginning and ending times for his stint.
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August 24, 2014 at 7:23 pm in reply to: who should start? will they trade for someone? who? qb discussion #4887znModeratorHere’s what Nick Wagoner says at ESPN (link). It bears thinking about:
Taking it a step further, it was also fair to wonder whether the Rams should have more strongly considered a quarterback at the top of the draft because they might never draft in such lofty territory again. In Fisher’s 18 full seasons as a head coach, his teams have had seven or more wins 15 times. He’s had one season each with four, five and six wins.
In other words, Fisher’s teams almost always find a way to a baseline of mediocrity that doesn’t yield many opportunities to draft franchise quarterbacks. The average first-round draft position of Fisher’s teams, not including picks gained in trade, is 17.9.
On the two occasions his Tennessee teams picked in the top three, they drafted a quarterback both times, one being the home run that was Steve McNair, the other being the whiff that was Vince Young.
Such is life when betting your franchise’s future on a young quarterback. It’s a bet the Rams weren’t prepared to make again while waiting to see if the one they made on Bradford in 2010 would pay off.
As for me, I never wanted the Rams to draft a QB. I believed in Sam. I refused to believe he was injury prone.
But, now that Sam is basically ruined goods, we do have to face facts. The franchise gambled on Sam and we have now lost the bet.
And it’s hard to find good QBs. Really hard.
Furthermore, NW is right–Fish generally hangs up enough wins to keep his team out of the top slots in which quality QBs generally go.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if we ended up doing what WASH did … trading draft picks for a top QB pick?
I dunno. I think these guys are smarter than to do some of the bad things other teams have done recently when it comes to qbs.
Look at teams that acquired new qbs since 2011 outside the first round, and have done well:
Denver signed Manning.
Bengals drafted Dalton in the 2nd round. I know people can do better than Dalton…but still.
KC signed Alex Smith.
Arizona traded cheap for Palmer.
Eagles drafted Foles in round 3.
Chicago signed McNown, who played well in that scheme, and then Tampa signed him.
Seattle drafted Wilson in the 3rd round.
SF signed Kaepernick in the 2nd round.Compare all the wasted first round picks and/or guys we still know nothing about, like the 2014 first rounders.
August 24, 2014 at 7:14 pm in reply to: who should start? will they trade for someone? who? qb discussion #4882znModeratorIf Fisher traded for a Cousins now he’d basically be telling Sam, “you’re done”–right after this difficult injury and long recovery ahead of him. I can’t see that happening. I’m sure Sam has many good friends on this team and I don’t know they would particularly like it. I know Fisher said that Shaun Hill is the guy and I believe it. Now–I CAN see the potential of them trading for another back-up type–a non-threatening guy. But if Davis continues to perform I believe they’ll just go with him as #3.
Fisher: “We move forward as a football team. Shaun is our guy.”
Fisher on trade or free agent speculation: “That’s not true. It doesn’t mean to say that we won’t, but we haven’t done it to this point.”
znModeratorIt was great to watch. Bradford was threading them. Even Hill and Davis got in on it. There’s a huge “what mighta been” hanging over this season, but I still think they score on people. It’s better than the offense they had with Clemens.
August 24, 2014 at 7:06 pm in reply to: who should start? will they trade for someone? who? qb discussion #4874znModeratorI wouldn’t trade for anyone except as depth. It’s someone you don;t know, haven’t scouted, have to re-train from scratch…and it wastes picks.
Better to compete with what you have IMO and save the picks for young players you believe in from the get-go and have time to coach up.
znModeratoryeah. i can’t think of another starting qb with the injury history this guy has had who’s made it.
alex smith?
he had a shoulder injury which they chose not to do surgery on. they finally decided to have surgery on it when they realized it wouldn’t heal on its own.
then he had to have a second shoulder surgery. mind you this was not necessarily contact related rather it was related to a wire they had left from the first surgery.
besides that he blew out his knee.
bradford has had three major ligament injuries. he had an ankle injury which still hadn’t healed going into the next season i believe.
and i’m just taking a guess at this. but my guess is one ligament tear is bad enough. the prognosis for a SECOND tear on the SAME ligament. my guess is the prognosis takes a huge dip.
No the ankle had healed. There was some stuff on the net about that but it was just wrong. The ankle had healed. You know whose ankle took longer? Roethlisberger.
Plunkett came back from several injuries.
I am not sure about the ACL because there are new techniques. ACLs aren’t what they used to be, medicine is better at handling them.
And Bradford re-injured the shoulder at OK, and came back, in the end, stronger than before (same with Brees, same operation).
I really don;t think anyone knows and I don’t think anyone’s guesses on this are better than anyone else’s.
znModeratorI’d be happy to see them give him another year to compete, as guys are saying. But they CANNOT go into next year without having another viable option as a starting QB.
Myself? I pretty much take all of that as a given. I think that’s just what’s going to happen.
znModeratorWell, I dunno. I don’t ever want to wager against the Rams doing well. If I am wrong I will be delighted.
I just see a lot of evidence of defensive problems. And I have yet to see even a series in which the defense makes a statement about who they are.
We’ll see.
Okay.
That makes sense.
I would have bet a homemade peach pie though.
But now…it’s too late. (wicked grin)
znModeratorUgh. Gonna be another long year and we’ll be picking in the top 10 again.
Let’s put some good spirits in this and wager.
I wager they do better than picking in the top 10. Anywhere from 7-9 to 10-6, and not drafting in the top 10.
The trick is what to wager. And remember, this is all in the spirit of fun. It’s 2 friends playing around, not 2 net strangers playing “no I’M RIGHT” games. Cause you know that I would be as disappointed as you in a bad season, and I know you would be as elated as I would be in a good one.
What’s a good fun wager.
znModeratori don’t care if he’s taken big hits. big hits is not what i’m talking about. shoot i can get in a car crash and walk away from it. stress is put on the knees and joints all the time in football. his ligaments. the ones that hold his shoulders, knees, ankles, and whatever else together. they just can’t take the stress of an nfl game. it’s not about awkward hits anymore. four times in five years? it’s not just about bad luck anymore. he’s injury prone. it might not happen on the next hit or the hit after that. but at some point. he’s gonna break something again.
I know, but this is just where we disagree–what I saw in that play was not stress being put on a knee in a way you see every game…I saw a freak combo of things that would have hyperextended any qb’s knee.
That’s just where we disagree.
Anyway, 2 things.
1. I am not arguing for not getting another qb…you can’t count on a qb who by the end of 2014 will have played only 30 of 64 games since 2011. I think they will get another qb after the season and see what they have with both. So our view of the injury has nothing to do with my views of what they should do at qb. I just see the play differently than you do. I have hyperextended my knees before, more than once…and when I watch the replay of that I just wince. Hurting a knee is bad, and what I see is an inevitable injury on that play, a freak play.
2. I put up a vid of the play if anyone wants to see what they think
http://theramshuddle.com/topic/heres-a-short-vid-of-the-injury/
znModeratori didn’t see anything out of the ordinary with that hit. i think most qbs don’t injure themselves on a play like that because most qbs aren’t injury prone like sam is.
IR, I promise you, that’s exactly what I see. Bryant tackled him high and the knee got put in an awkward position. That’s not “not being able to take a hit”–Bradford had taken a couple of big hits before that already, both in that game and in the GB game.
You put a knee in that position with the lineman hanging on him that way, it gets hurt. Usually, probably, hyperextended.
znModeratorthe guy barely got hit. i mean. no ill will toward sam. these things happen. but he’s just not durable. i don’t see how the rams give him another contract at all.
I don’t think it’s a matter of getting hit. In fact in that series before that play, and in the previous 2 series against GB, he got hit a few times.
That one, the one that got him, was an odd angled effort at a tackle that put stress on the knee.
If that kind of tackle were common, every qb in the league would have hyper-extended knees.
That’s just about that one play though. In general, that one play aside, I agree that you have to consider new options when you have a player who (by the end of 2014) will have missed 34 of 64 games since 2011.
Because put stress on the knee in that particular way, and stuff happens to the knee. No matter who you are.
znModeratori don’t think they can rely on him at all. they gotta let him go. this is the worst rams news i’ve heard in awhile.
They might let him go in the end, but, why? Next year is his last year. You bring in a new qb and see what you have.
If they kept Saffold and Long they are going to keep Bradford.
znModerator@caplannfl: Shaun Hill is the only QB remaining on the #Rams roster who has started a game (26 in career).
Joe, have you noticed yet that we HAVE the game if you want to see it?
Right here—>
http://theramshuddle.com/topic/the-browns-game-here-w-cleveland-announcers/
August 24, 2014 at 3:53 pm in reply to: re-broadcast time (Browns game) … actually NFL won't rebroadcast it (yet) #4808znModeratorWell, that’s all weird.
This was my second attempt to record. Just got back from the movies and I see the stupid Saints. Thanks for tracking this down, zn. What a mess.
Never heard of virtual signage.
PA! dammit. WE HAVE THE GAME RIGHT HERE.
http://theramshuddle.com/topic/the-browns-game-here-w-cleveland-announcers/
znModeratorThis is a bummer. I can’t believe. Damn I hate preseason.
Well, at least we’ve got some receivers stepping up. Maybe Hill can move the ball.
They can’t go into next season counting on him. They will need a qb.
I hope they aren’t going to get silly about it and trade for one now. They will need the picks next year to trade up for one.
znModeratorAdam Schefter @AdamSchefter · 1m
RT @mortreport: Rams QB Sam Bradford is out for season after MRI shows he did tear left knee ACL, per sources. Rams will announce later.
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