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January 13, 2016 at 11:39 am in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37146
znModeratori don’t think the committee ever really supported carson. just an attempt to strong arm kroenke into making some more concessions for spanos.
That could be.
znModeratorThis is the thread that was going up until the final re-vote that decided the issue.
Anyone can post anything in it…just saying what it has been as a thread up till now.
So far, responses from after we knew the final vote are in this thread:
http://theramshuddle.com/topic/board-response-to-the-nfl-vote/
January 13, 2016 at 11:02 am in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37107
znModeratorThe NFL Returns to L.A.
Peter King
http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/01/12/los-angeles-rams-st-louis-nfl-inglewood-stadium-vote
The Rams are leaving St. Louis for SoCal and building a new stadium in Inglewood. Here’s why Stan Kroenke’s proposal got the votes and where it leaves the two bridesmaids—the Chargers and Raiders. Plus, reader mail
As triumphant Rams owner Stan Kroenke and Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, one of Kroenke’s biggest champions in the long, slow slog to a new NFL reality, celebrated quietly at trendy Houston restaurant Vallone’s near midnight Tuesday, they had to be thinking, “How exactly did this happen?”
And as disappointed San Diego owner Dean Spanos dined privately back at the hotel where NFL owners voted to change the history of football in Los Angeles, he had to be thinking, “How exactly did this happen?”
Noted Los Angeles Times NFL scribe Sam Farmer kept repeating throughout the process of returning pro football to Los Angeles after a 21-year absence: “Anyone who tells you he knows what’s going to happen in L.A. is lying, because the owners don’t even know.” That continued into Tuesday morning at the nondescript Westin Memorial City Hotel in Houston. That where’s the six-owner committee charged with finding the best NFL option for Los Angeles voted 5-1 in favor of building a new stadium complex in suburban Carson anchored by the Chargers. Within hours, the NFL owner membership, voting by secret ballot (that was important), rebuked the L.A. committee hours later by voting 20-12 and then 21-11 for the Inglewood project.
The Rams are scheduled to begin play—with or without another team as a neighbor—in the 70,240-seat stadium and $2.6-billion complex in Inglewood in 2019.“It was unbelievable,” Jones said. “I’ve never been in a meeting where that many people voted for what the committee didn’t want.”
So why the switch? Two things. “The key was changing from public to secret ballots,” said one NFL source. “The reversal of support [from Carson to Inglewood] from what Dean expected shocked him. And absolutely the 21 votes for Inglewood was a shock.” Conversely, the lack of support for Carson once the ballots went secret was very surprising. The Carson support evaporated in a flash, which few people in Houston saw coming.
The switch came about, another high-ranking club source said, because of the quality of Kroenke’s proposal for a 298-acre stadium site, and so much more. One high-ranking club executive said the overall quality of the Inglewood site, with inclusion of a new campus for NFL media—NFL Network, NFL digital ventures and NFL.com, including a theater for premieres of NFL-produced programming and documentaries and films—was a big factor in swaying so many owners to the Kroenke side.
“The surprise of the day was getting the 21 votes right off the bat,” the high-ranking club source said. “That set the tone. This is the league’s biggest asset, and it’s significant that they awarded it to Stan. They trust him.”
So this is the way the vote happened, and how the three tenuous teams stand today:
The Rams: Owners eventually voted 30-2 for Kroenke to move to Inglewood and shepherd the NFL back to Los Angeles for the first time since 1994. Owners, in addition, gave the Chargers until January 2017 to make a deal to move to Inglewood with Kroenke. The Rams will play in the Los Angeles Coliseum for either two or three seasons, beginning in August, while the Inglewood stadium is being built. St Louis, meanwhile, bitterly accepted the NFL decision and prepared to move forward without a team. “This sets a terrible precedent not only for St. Louis but for all communities that have loyally supported their NFL franchises,” said Missouri governor Jay Nixon.
The Chargers: For a decade Charger brass felt frustrated that it couldn’t get a deal done in San Diego. The NFL has given Spanos and the city a year and one final chance to get a new stadium arranged—or to join Kroenke in Inglewood in a facility that Kroenke finances totally. There were indications that Dean Spanos, who seems to be done with San Diego, will move to strike a deal in Inglewood within a month or two, though it’s certainly not his first preference.
The Raiders: “We’ll be working really hard to find us a home,” owner Mark Davis said in a statement Tuesday night. “We’ll get it right.” How, exactly? The Raiders will almost certainly return to the O.co Coliseum for the 2016 season while Davis considers his option, which are bleak. He has no stadium lease. (The one at the Coliseum just expired, and he likely would have to go year-to-year there now.) The Raiders will have the option to join the Rams in a year if Spanos doesn’t get the deal done in that time, but it is a longshot to think the Kroenke stadium would ever be an option for Davis. The Raider future, which will be supplemented by a $100-million check from the NFL in the effort to get an Oakland stadium done, would be best spent in Northern California, with a second owner helping Davis get a good stadium deal done.
As far as NFL alignment goes, the Rams’ move makes make great geographical sense. The NFC West will now presumable be comprised of Seattle, San Francisco, Arizona and the Los Angeles Rams, a perfect top-to-bottom West Coast (and slightly inland) group. If the Chargers move, the AFC West would consist of Oakland (for now), Denver, Kansas City and the Los Angeles Chargers. The franchises, they are a-changin’.
The folks in Missouri won’t appreciate that, when the vote was over Tuesday evening, the membership gave Kroenke—a silent partner for the most part, the NFL’s Howard Hughes owner—a warm ovation. That’s stunning in itself, because of fractious nature of the multi-year relocation process and the enmity Kroenke engendered among some owners who felt St. Louis was a perfectly fine market willing to bend over backwards for an NFL franchise.
“Stan is a tremendous asset to the NFL,” Jones said after the vote. “I don’t think there was anything short about Carson. There was everything long about Inglewood. The best thing we could have done was have Stan Kroenke lead the Rams back to Los Angeles, with absolutely the greatest plan that has ever been conceived in sports as far as how to put the show on.”
To the victors go the NFL franchise. The bitter taste won’t soon leave the mouths of Rams fans in St. Louis. And, possibly soon, San Diego.
January 13, 2016 at 11:01 am in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37106
znModeratorThe NFL Was Guilty Of a Personal Foul, but a Proud St. Louis Will Rally
Posted by: Bernie Miklasz
http://www.101sports.com/2016/01/13/249021/
It’s late. My my alarm clock will be going off in about three hours, and I’m just about out of rage. But here’s some of what I learned during the bizarre, cruel and draining saga that ended with Tuesday’s official if anticlimactic announcement confirming the NFL’s vote to allow Stan Kroenke and the Rams to move to Los Angeles:
MEANINGLESS AND WORTHLESS:
The NFL’s relocation guidelines. The NFL’s integrity. The NFL’s fairness. Roger Goodell’s word. Stan Kroenke’s word. Kevin Demoff’s word. The influence of the NFL’s “Los Angeles” committee. Eric Grubman’s objectivity and impartiality. The NFL’s cross-ownership rules that were ignored to accommodate Kroenke, the first indication that the league executives would shine his shoes when ordered to do so. The importance of Disney CEO Bob Iger, who was supposed to put the competing Carson project in the winning column. The longstanding belief that the NFL owners would give the first shot at LA to San Diego Chargers owner Dean Spanos who had waited in vain for a new stadium in San Diego. His Carson partnership with Oakland Raiders owner Mark Davis and Iger was DOA when the owners cut their back-room deal with Kroenke, who had the most money — and therefore the most power. Meaningless: the personal conduct of an NFL owner (Kroenke) in his market. Meaningless: the hideous performance of the owner’s team in his market. Worthless: the concept of holding an owner accountable. Meaningless and worthless: the NFL’s respect for the relentless and remarkable effort by the St. Louis task force that raised at least $400 million in public money to fund a new stadium for a franchise and a league that didn’t appreciate it or deserve it.
MEANINGFUL AND WORTH EVERYTHING:
Kroenke’s $7.7 billion fortune. Goodell and Grubman’s muscle in shoving the LA committee out of the way to get the desired outcome. Kroenke’s willingness to build a $2 billion stadium-entertainment complex in Inglewood, near Los Angeles. The NFL’s enthusiasm to embrace the project and endorse an owner that the league doesn’t even like — all in the pursuit of a solution for filling a void that Kroenke himself created by pulling the Rams out LA in 1995. The NFL’s lust to reach the league’s annual revenue goal of $25 billion annually — and nothing else mattered, including the unprecedented abandonment of a market that raised nearly $1 billion in public dollars (combined) to fund two new stadiums for the league in fewer than 25 years.
I’LL NEVER REALLY UNDERSTAND:
How the NFL can be so cavalier about walking away from $400 million (at least) of public money in St. Louis. It sets a bad precedent for team owners that one day will need to lobby for public dollars to pour into into stadiums in their own markets. This was an ominous development for mid-market owners that can’t keep pace with the wealth of a Kroenke or a Jerry Jones.
I’ll never understand why the NFL shamelessly encouraged Dave Peacock and Bob Blitz to continue pressing to complete the funding for the proposed north riverfront stadium when the league had absolutely no intention of giving St. Louis a fair and honest process that would keep the Rams here. If the cartel wanted to get Kroenke to LA, then be done with it. The anti-STL fix was in; this was a competition that Peacock and Blitz had no chance of winning. So why put STL leadership through a charade, send them through a maze of glasshouse mirrors, and waste the time and energy of two devoted men (and many other individuals here) that were only trying to satisfy the league’s directive for preserving NFL football in St. Louis?
I’ll never understand why Kroenke and his attorney Alan Bornstein felt such a feverish desire and to napalm the city with a vicious attack in the Rams’ official relocation application that contained outright lies, half-truths, misinformation, and gratuitous condemnation of a struggling but proud town that valiantly tried to come through with a first-class stadium? Why couldn’t Kroenke and Bornstein calmly and professionally make the case for moving without nuking the place on the way out? The NFL had already rigged this process to end happily Kroenke, so why drop bombs?
The unseemly tactics were approved by the NFL. We know that because Goodell piled on a few days later with propaganda that came in the form of an official report that signed off on the Rams’ alleged fulfillment of the official relocation guidelines. Goodell repeated some of Kroenke’s lies, and completely disregarded the $400 million in public money placed on the table by St. Louis. Again: why not just get along with your slimy business and take the team away without insulting and tormenting a fan base that had been battered by horrendous football, a conniving owner, and the open-ended threat of the franchise moving? When Bill Bidwill applied to move the Cardinals to Arizona in 1988, he actually praised the St. Louis fans and expressed appreciation for their support before citing his reason for requesting a transfer: his disappointment over the city-county decision to reject Bidwill’s request for a new stadium.
Why did Goodell throw a tantrum when league finance chairman Bob McNair pledged an extra $100 million of league money for the STL stadium project in exchange for a ticket-tax abatement for the team? Goodell made it clear the $100 million contribution wasn’t going to happen for St. Louis … only to turn around Tuesday and give the Chargers and Raiders $100 million apiece for potential stadium solutions in their current markets. The hypocrisy — even by NFL standards — was appalling.
Why did St. Louis — the only at-risk market that made the effort to come up with at least $400 million in public money — get crushed and swept aside by the league, when Oakland and San Diego didn’t even bother to file an actionable stadium proposal by the league’s Dec. 30 deadline? How could the one market that tried to satisfy the NFL’s demands get blown away in favor of two markets that did nothing to remedy their severe stadium problems?
This is real Malice in Wonderland stuff: hammer the city that did everything to deliver the money — and generously reward the two markets that did nothing. The Chargers and/or Raiders may ultimately move, but at least for now San Diego and Oakland have a chance to keep their teams, and the NFL tossed them a $100 million gift to try and make it happen. St. Louis, and that $400 million? GET OUT. The moral of the story: try to do everything right and lose your team; do everything wrong and keep your team. What a filthy, corrupt enterprise.
I’ll never understand why Kroenke — even after getting permission to flee — deemed it necessary to produce a vomit-inducing written statement in which he declared his everlasting love for St. Louis and Missouri.
“St. Louis is a city known for its incredibly hard-working, passionate and proud people,” Kroenke wrote.
(Yes, the incredibly hard-working, passionate and proud people that you tried to eviscerate in your relocation application. And how generous of Kroenke to say, during a rare news conference, that he hoped his stadium-entertainment complex would help the low-income residents of Inglewood.)
“Being part of the group that brought the NFL back to St. Louis in 1995 is one of the proudest moments of my professional career,” Kroenke said. “Reaching two Super Bowls and winning one are things all St. Louisans should always treasure.”
(The Rams had four winning records in 21 seasons here. They haven’t had a winning season since 2003. They haven’t made the playoffs since 2004. They’re stalled on a streak of 12 consecutive losing seasons that includes nine straight losing seasons and the league’s worst winning percentage (.295) since 2007. Thanks, Stan. We’re grateful.)
“While there understandably has been emotionally charged commentary regarding our motives and intentions, the speculation is not true and unfounded,’ Kroenke wrote. “I am a Missouri native named after two St. Louis sports legends who I was fortunate enough to know on a personal level. This move isn’t about whether I love St. Louis or Missouri. I do and always will. No matter what anyone says, that will never change.”
(I assume that the person who penned this for Kroenke was hopelessly intoxicated, and laughing hysterically while writing this Hallmark card to St. Louis.)
WHAT I DO UNDERSTAND:
The Chicken Littles were right about Kroenke moving to Los Angeles. I made fun of them at first — something I’ve subsequently admitted many times. I simply underestimated Kroenke’s greed, especially after he expressed pride in his Missouri roots and honorable reputation while telling me in 2010 that he’d never lead the charge out of St. Louis to Los Angeles. I took the man at his word … at least until it became obvious to me (belatedly) that he wasn’t telling the truth. Either way, my bad.
I understand that the team’s LA-based fans are celebrating, thrilled to have the Rams on the way. I don’t blame them for being happy. They wanted the Rams to return, and their wish has been granted. We felt the same way in 1995. So I congratulate the LA fans. It would be petty to hate on them. They weren’t responsible for moving the team; that was done by Kroenke, Goodell, Grubman and gutless owners. Many of these same LA fans were heartbroken when the Rams moved to St. Louis; their anguish is now our anguish. This is just one of the ugly, awful sides of professional sports. LA and STL fans know all about it.
Never trust Goodell. Ever. (Stating the obvious here, eh?)
I understand that there are good men in this league … some of whom served on the LA committee. They tried to be fair to Peacock and the task force, only to get bulldozed at the end of the road by Goodell and Grubman (the league’s executive VP.)
I know that you can count me out on leading a charge to recruit an NFL team to St. Louis. And this insanity is bubbling up already. According to Daniel Kaplan of the Sports Business Journal, who put this on Twitter Tuesday night, NFL in-house lobbyist Cynthia Hogan said “St. Louis is not necessarily done as an NFL city.” Hogan also said (via Kaplan) that had the (Chargers-Raiders) Carson project prevailed over Inglewood the extra $100 million would have gone to St. Louis instead.
Goodness. Is it even possible to be more callous? The Rams haven’t even packed up and the NFL is already trying to set up St. Louis as a leverage station to be used at a later date by NFL team owners that want to put pressure on their local politicians to come up with substantial public money for a new stadium or extensive stadium renovations.
I understand that this is a great city, a tough city with immense pride, a city that faces the inevitable problems that are familiar to most Midwest and Rust Belt towns. It’s also a city with character. It stings to lose the Rams, but the pain will ease. If anything we’ll have more fondness for the Cardinals and Blues and Mizzou. We’ll feel more loyalty, and have a stronger bond, with Blues owner Tom Stillman and Cards owner Bill DeWitt Jr. and the many athletes that bring this town joy.
St. Louis has been knocked around lately, experiencing tragedy and tumult in Ferguson, the damaging floods, and the hard every-day realities that defy easy, simplistic solutions. And now the NFL and Kroenke kicked us when we’re down, abandoning us despite our sincere efforts to make it work for the league and the Rams. We’ll get over it. This metropolitan area didn’t collapse without an NFL team between 1988 and 1994. NFL or no NFL, the challenges remain: better schools, less crime, and more jobs.
I’d rather appreciate what we have instead of agonizing over what we don’t have. No one is going to care about St. Louis except the people who are St. Louis, and a man named after Enos Slaughter and Stan Musial wasn’t going to fix our problems. So we have to look out for each other. Because we’re here. We’re staying. We’ll dig in. We won’t run away. I’m damned proud to live in this city.
January 13, 2016 at 10:59 am in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37105
znModeratorThe NFL Was Guilty Of a Personal Foul, but a Proud St. Louis Will Rally
Posted by: Bernie Miklasz
http://www.101sports.com/2016/01/13/249021/
It’s late. My my alarm clock will be going off in about three hours, and I’m just about out of rage. But here’s some of what I learned during the bizarre, cruel and draining saga that ended with Tuesday’s official if anticlimactic announcement confirming the NFL’s vote to allow Stan Kroenke and the Rams to move to Los Angeles:
MEANINGLESS AND WORTHLESS:
The NFL’s relocation guidelines. The NFL’s integrity. The NFL’s fairness. Roger Goodell’s word. Stan Kroenke’s word. Kevin Demoff’s word. The influence of the NFL’s “Los Angeles” committee. Eric Grubman’s objectivity and impartiality. The NFL’s cross-ownership rules that were ignored to accommodate Kroenke, the first indication that the league executives would shine his shoes when ordered to do so. The importance of Disney CEO Bob Iger, who was supposed to put the competing Carson project in the winning column. The longstanding belief that the NFL owners would give the first shot at LA to San Diego Chargers owner Dean Spanos who had waited in vain for a new stadium in San Diego. His Carson partnership with Oakland Raiders owner Mark Davis and Iger was DOA when the owners cut their back-room deal with Kroenke, who had the most money — and therefore the most power. Meaningless: the personal conduct of an NFL owner (Kroenke) in his market. Meaningless: the hideous performance of the owner’s team in his market. Worthless: the concept of holding an owner accountable. Meaningless and worthless: the NFL’s respect for the relentless and remarkable effort by the St. Louis task force that raised at least $400 million in public money to fund a new stadium for a franchise and a league that didn’t appreciate it or deserve it.
MEANINGFUL AND WORTH EVERYTHING:
Kroenke’s $7.7 billion fortune. Goodell and Grubman’s muscle in shoving the LA committee out of the way to get the desired outcome. Kroenke’s willingness to build a $2 billion stadium-entertainment complex in Inglewood, near Los Angeles. The NFL’s enthusiasm to embrace the project and endorse an owner that the league doesn’t even like — all in the pursuit of a solution for filling a void that Kroenke himself created by pulling the Rams out LA in 1995. The NFL’s lust to reach the league’s annual revenue goal of $25 billion annually — and nothing else mattered, including the unprecedented abandonment of a market that raised nearly $1 billion in public dollars (combined) to fund two new stadiums for the league in fewer than 25 years.
I’LL NEVER REALLY UNDERSTAND:
How the NFL can be so cavalier about walking away from $400 million (at least) of public money in St. Louis. It sets a bad precedent for team owners that one day will need to lobby for public dollars to pour into into stadiums in their own markets. This was an ominous development for mid-market owners that can’t keep pace with the wealth of a Kroenke or a Jerry Jones.
I’ll never understand why the NFL shamelessly encouraged Dave Peacock and Bob Blitz to continue pressing to complete the funding for the proposed north riverfront stadium when the league had absolutely no intention of giving St. Louis a fair and honest process that would keep the Rams here. If the cartel wanted to get Kroenke to LA, then be done with it. The anti-STL fix was in; this was a competition that Peacock and Blitz had no chance of winning. So why put STL leadership through a charade, send them through a maze of glasshouse mirrors, and waste the time and energy of two devoted men (and many other individuals here) that were only trying to satisfy the league’s directive for preserving NFL football in St. Louis?
I’ll never understand why Kroenke and his attorney Alan Bornstein felt such a feverish desire and to napalm the city with a vicious attack in the Rams’ official relocation application that contained outright lies, half-truths, misinformation, and gratuitous condemnation of a struggling but proud town that valiantly tried to come through with a first-class stadium? Why couldn’t Kroenke and Bornstein calmly and professionally make the case for moving without nuking the place on the way out? The NFL had already rigged this process to end happily Kroenke, so why drop bombs?
The unseemly tactics were approved by the NFL. We know that because Goodell piled on a few days later with propaganda that came in the form of an official report that signed off on the Rams’ alleged fulfillment of the official relocation guidelines. Goodell repeated some of Kroenke’s lies, and completely disregarded the $400 million in public money placed on the table by St. Louis. Again: why not just get along with your slimy business and take the team away without insulting and tormenting a fan base that had been battered by horrendous football, a conniving owner, and the open-ended threat of the franchise moving? When Bill Bidwill applied to move the Cardinals to Arizona in 1988, he actually praised the St. Louis fans and expressed appreciation for their support before citing his reason for requesting a transfer: his disappointment over the city-county decision to reject Bidwill’s request for a new stadium.
Why did Goodell throw a tantrum when league finance chairman Bob McNair pledged an extra $100 million of league money for the STL stadium project in exchange for a ticket-tax abatement for the team? Goodell made it clear the $100 million contribution wasn’t going to happen for St. Louis … only to turn around Tuesday and give the Chargers and Raiders $100 million apiece for potential stadium solutions in their current markets. The hypocrisy — even by NFL standards — was appalling.
Why did St. Louis — the only at-risk market that made the effort to come up with at least $400 million in public money — get crushed and swept aside by the league, when Oakland and San Diego didn’t even bother to file an actionable stadium proposal by the league’s Dec. 30 deadline? How could the one market that tried to satisfy the NFL’s demands get blown away in favor of two markets that did nothing to remedy their severe stadium problems?
This is real Malice in Wonderland stuff: hammer the city that did everything to deliver the money — and generously reward the two markets that did nothing. The Chargers and/or Raiders may ultimately move, but at least for now San Diego and Oakland have a chance to keep their teams, and the NFL tossed them a $100 million gift to try and make it happen. St. Louis, and that $400 million? GET OUT. The moral of the story: try to do everything right and lose your team; do everything wrong and keep your team. What a filthy, corrupt enterprise.
I’ll never understand why Kroenke — even after getting permission to flee — deemed it necessary to produce a vomit-inducing written statement in which he declared his everlasting love for St. Louis and Missouri.
“St. Louis is a city known for its incredibly hard-working, passionate and proud people,” Kroenke wrote.
(Yes, the incredibly hard-working, passionate and proud people that you tried to eviscerate in your relocation application. And how generous of Kroenke to say, during a rare news conference, that he hoped his stadium-entertainment complex would help the low-income residents of Inglewood.)
“Being part of the group that brought the NFL back to St. Louis in 1995 is one of the proudest moments of my professional career,” Kroenke said. “Reaching two Super Bowls and winning one are things all St. Louisans should always treasure.”
(The Rams had four winning records in 21 seasons here. They haven’t had a winning season since 2003. They haven’t made the playoffs since 2004. They’re stalled on a streak of 12 consecutive losing seasons that includes nine straight losing seasons and the league’s worst winning percentage (.295) since 2007. Thanks, Stan. We’re grateful.)
“While there understandably has been emotionally charged commentary regarding our motives and intentions, the speculation is not true and unfounded,’ Kroenke wrote. “I am a Missouri native named after two St. Louis sports legends who I was fortunate enough to know on a personal level. This move isn’t about whether I love St. Louis or Missouri. I do and always will. No matter what anyone says, that will never change.”
(I assume that the person who penned this for Kroenke was hopelessly intoxicated, and laughing hysterically while writing this Hallmark card to St. Louis.)
WHAT I DO UNDERSTAND:
The Chicken Littles were right about Kroenke moving to Los Angeles. I made fun of them at first — something I’ve subsequently admitted many times. I simply underestimated Kroenke’s greed, especially after he expressed pride in his Missouri roots and honorable reputation while telling me in 2010 that he’d never lead the charge out of St. Louis to Los Angeles. I took the man at his word … at least until it became obvious to me (belatedly) that he wasn’t telling the truth. Either way, my bad.
I understand that the team’s LA-based fans are celebrating, thrilled to have the Rams on the way. I don’t blame them for being happy. They wanted the Rams to return, and their wish has been granted. We felt the same way in 1995. So I congratulate the LA fans. It would be petty to hate on them. They weren’t responsible for moving the team; that was done by Kroenke, Goodell, Grubman and gutless owners. Many of these same LA fans were heartbroken when the Rams moved to St. Louis; their anguish is now our anguish. This is just one of the ugly, awful sides of professional sports. LA and STL fans know all about it.
Never trust Goodell. Ever. (Stating the obvious here, eh?)
I understand that there are good men in this league … some of whom served on the LA committee. They tried to be fair to Peacock and the task force, only to get bulldozed at the end of the road by Goodell and Grubman (the league’s executive VP.)
I know that you can count me out on leading a charge to recruit an NFL team to St. Louis. And this insanity is bubbling up already. According to Daniel Kaplan of the Sports Business Journal, who put this on Twitter Tuesday night, NFL in-house lobbyist Cynthia Hogan said “St. Louis is not necessarily done as an NFL city.” Hogan also said (via Kaplan) that had the (Chargers-Raiders) Carson project prevailed over Inglewood the extra $100 million would have gone to St. Louis instead.
Goodness. Is it even possible to be more callous? The Rams haven’t even packed up and the NFL is already trying to set up St. Louis as a leverage station to be used at a later date by NFL team owners that want to put pressure on their local politicians to come up with substantial public money for a new stadium or extensive stadium renovations.
I understand that this is a great city, a tough city with immense pride, a city that faces the inevitable problems that are familiar to most Midwest and Rust Belt towns. It’s also a city with character. It stings to lose the Rams, but the pain will ease. If anything we’ll have more fondness for the Cardinals and Blues and Mizzou. We’ll feel more loyalty, and have a stronger bond, with Blues owner Tom Stillman and Cards owner Bill DeWitt Jr. and the many athletes that bring this town joy.
St. Louis has been knocked around lately, experiencing tragedy and tumult in Ferguson, the damaging floods, and the hard every-day realities that defy easy, simplistic solutions. And now the NFL and Kroenke kicked us when we’re down, abandoning us despite our sincere efforts to make it work for the league and the Rams. We’ll get over it. This metropolitan area didn’t collapse without an NFL team between 1988 and 1994. NFL or no NFL, the challenges remain: better schools, less crime, and more jobs.
I’d rather appreciate what we have instead of agonizing over what we don’t have. No one is going to care about St. Louis except the people who are St. Louis, and a man named after Enos Slaughter and Stan Musial wasn’t going to fix our problems. So we have to look out for each other. Because we’re here. We’re staying. We’ll dig in. We won’t run away. I’m damned proud to live in this city.
January 13, 2016 at 10:58 am in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37104
znModeratorBenFred: We’ll miss the Rams but certainly won’t miss their owner
Ben Frederickson
St. Louis lost the battle to keep its losing football team from moving to Los Angeles on Tuesday. The loss of its loser of an owner should help ease the sting.
This city really will miss its mediocre Rams.
Stan Kroenke, not so much.
“I’m going to attempt to do everything that I can to keep the Rams in St. Louis.” — Kroenke
Back when Kroenke, a native Missourian, used to talk to the Rams fan base through the media, the billionaire said he wouldn’t do this. St. Louisans should have known better, of course. A liar can’t help but lie.
Some were led to believe the member of the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame — no kidding — would fight to keep professional football in his home state. Or at least not fight to rip it away.
But the problem was Kroenke’s actions never really seemed to match the assurance he gave the Post-Dispatch in a rare 2010 interview that took place after he exercised his right as minority owner to match a competitor’s bid.
Remember what he said.
“I’m born and raised in Missouri. I’ve been a Missourian for 60 years. People in our state know me. People know I can be trusted. People know I’m an honorable guy.” — Kroenke
Look at what he did.
Kroenke latched onto a regrettable clause in the team’s Edward Jones Dome lease that freed up the opportunity for relocation if the venue wasn’t in the top 25 percent of the league.
Former team president John Shaw made sure the item made it into the paperwork. Kroenke wielded it as his trump card. Meanwhile he made sure his multi-billion dollar dream stadium in Inglewood, Calif., was shovel-ready, with or without the poor second team that will wind up being his tenant.
If only Kroenke’s desire to climb the Forbes ranking and claim Los Angeles matched his desire to own a winning football team.
In his 29-page relocation application — a necessary part of the league relocation guidelines that turned out to be an absolute joke — Kroenke cited the Rams’ to-the-cap spending as a way to knock fans for poor attendance. He failed to mention the Rams are 36-59-1 since he became the majority owner.
He also left out this noteworthy piece of information: Rams coach Jeff Fisher, the man Kroenke hired in 2012, was asked multiple questions about his experience overseeing the Houston Oilers’ transition into the Tennessee Titans during his job interview in Denver. He must have nailed the answers, because Fisher, who is 27-36-1 with the Rams, is about to become the third coach since the AFL-NFL merger to receive a fifth season after a sub-.500 record in each of his first four.
“There’s a track record. I’ve always stepped up for pro football in St. Louis. And I’m stepping up one more time.” — Kroenke
It was wild to track, wasn’t it? The low of Monday night, when reports of a Rams-Chargers partnership surfaced. The thrill of Tuesday afternoon, when the league’s Los Angeles committee recommended the Chargers-Raiders project in Carson, Calif., by a 5-1 vote. Then the disgust when we were reminded that this is the NFL, where money rules.
An initial hope was that Kroenke would be so stubborn he would blow it. Man, it was fun to imagine the league owners with a conscience tackling Kroenke and associate-in-greed Jerry Jones at the goal line.
There were unconfirmed whispers of collusion (rumors that Eric Grubman, the league’s point man on the race to Los Angeles, might be in line for a job with the Rams), and even some humor, such as a report that Kroenke threatened legal action if the league picked Carson.
To be fair, Kroenke probably views the threat of a lawsuit as a sign of his friendship. It’s his version of a handshake.
Eventually, the fun stopped, and reality hit. The men with the money get what they want. Every time. A precedent has been set: If you are the home city of an NFL team that wants to move, do nothing, because it won’t matter in the end.
Kroenke’s fellow con artist, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, painted quite the picture after the NFL mafia cleaned up the blood and paid off the witnesses.
The amount of spin bordered on insanity. It would have been laughable if St. Louis wasn’t the city with the cement blocks strapped to its feet.
The way Goodell told it, Kroenke was leading the Los Angeles Rams home. People here know Kroenke turned his back on his home long ago.
The best part was when Kroenke stepped behind the microphone.
“Um,” he started “Well.”
He recovered and muddled through excuses like a guy who hadn’t talked publicly since …. let me check again … 2012.
Kroenke said he really tried to make it work here. He said it was bittersweet. He said this was the hardest thing he’s done in his professional career.
St. Louis knows better.
“I’ll do my damnedest.” — Kroenke
Turned out he didn’t give a damn. Good riddance, Stan.
St. Louis will miss your team.
It should celebrate losing you.
January 13, 2016 at 10:58 am in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37103
znModeratorGoodbye, St. Louis Rams; owners approve move to Los Angeles
David Hunn
HOUSTON • National Football League owners on Tuesday voted overwhelmingly to strip the Rams from St. Louis and send the team to owner Stan Kroenke’s proposed $2 billion stadium in Los Angeles County.
The owners also agreed, after more than 10 hours of presentations and negotiations, to allow Dean Spanos to move his San Diego Chargers — but not to the site he proposed. Instead, after multiple closed-door meetings, Spanos agreed to consider leasing or buying into Kroenke’s stadium in Inglewood, southwest of downtown L.A.
The Rams will play in a temporary home in the Los Angeles area next season.
The news almost immediately drew outrage from St. Louis fans, and disappointment from local leaders.
St. Louis Mayor Francis Slay said in a statement that the NFL ignored the facts, the strength of the market, the local plan to build a new stadium, and the loyalty of St. Louis fans, “who supported the team through far more downs than ups.”
St. Louis County Executive Steve Stenger said he was “bitterly” disappointed.
Dave Peacock, co-chairman of the task force to build a new football stadium here, called his work with the NFL more “contemplated and contrived than I realized.”
“We’d aim for a target, hit it, and they’d say, no the target was over here,” he said of the NFL’s direction.
And lifelong fans, such as Mickey Right, were crestfallen.
“This whole thing’s made me want to become a basketball fan,” said Right, who visited the Edward Jones Dome late Tuesday in homage. “It just really loses your faith in the NFL. It’s supposed to be a league of integrity.”
The Rams and the Chargers, if the team moves, will each pay a $550 million relocation fee.
Oakland Raiders owner Mark Davis is, for now, left out of moving plans. Spanos had worked with him for at least a year on a two-team stadium in Carson, Calif., just south of Kroenke’s site.
“We’ll see where Raider Nation ends up here,” he said after the meetings. “We’ll be looking for a home.”
NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said after the meetings that Davis will have the opportunity to take the second spot in Inglewood, if Spanos declines. Also, the league has agreed to pay an extra $100 million — beyond the $200 million in NFL stadium construction funds — to either Spanos or Davis, whichever stays in his hometown.
Goodell called both the Carson and the Inglewood projects “outstanding.”
But he said he expected Kroenke’s plan to become “one of the greatest” sports and entertainment complexes in the world.
“We have the return of the Los Angeles Rams to their home,” Goodell said. “We have a facility that is going to be absolutely extraordinary in the Los Angeles market that I think fans are going to absolutely love. And I think it’s going to set a new bar for all sports, quite frankly. And, that, we’re very proud of.”
Those close to the process said after the meeting that it was Kroenke’s stadium vision — in its physical beauty, surrounding redevelopment, and its pitch to house the NFL’s substantial media businesses — that swayed owners. They came into the meeting, insiders said privately, liking his plan better.
Still, they had to vote twice to cut the deal. The first vote favored Kroenke, 20-12, but failed to get the necessary three-fourths of the league’s 32 owners, as required when a team applies to move to a new city.
The owners then took a break while several met behind closed doors with Spanos and Davis.
The final vote came in 30-2, several sources told the Post-Dispatch — and left St. Louis without an NFL team, again.
ST. LOUIS SAGA
The day was historic for the league. Owners have never agreed to relocate two teams at once.
And it ends a year of deliberations by finally returning the NFL to Los Angeles, which has been without a team for more than two decades.
Most credit Kroenke for starting the race. Three years ago, the billionaire real estate developer took his landlords at the Edward Jones Dome in St. Louis to arbitration over the now-infamous “first tier” clause in their lease. The clause required the state of Missouri, city of St. Louis and St. Louis County to renovate the Dome — for about $700 million — up to the league’s “first tier,” or top eight stadia. Local officials declined, and, as prescribed in the lease, the Rams went year-to-year at the Dome.
Two years ago, Kroenke bought land in Inglewood, next to the Los Angeles International Airport. Just a year ago, he announced he was building a “world-class” stadium there.
Spanos has said publicly that he took Kroenke’s move as a direct threat to the Chargers’ fan base, one-fourth of which comes from L.A., he said. Soon after Kroenke’s announcement, Spanos and Davis announced a two-team stadium in Carson.
In the meantime, Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon named a stadium task force, which proposed a $1.1 billion open-air stadium on the St. Louis riverfront — with $400 million in public funding — just north of downtown.
The past year featured regular revelations. At some point, nearly every pundit made a prediction.
Then, last week, the league’s relocation filing period opened, and all three teams submitted. Kroenke pitched a sparkling stadium set among shops, restaurants and hotels. His proposal also blasted St. Louis, calling the city “struggling,” and the region unable to sustain three professional sports teams.
Moreover, Kroenke said, Nixon’s stadium plan was so inadequate, not only would the Rams decline, but any NFL team that took the deal was on the path to “financial ruin.”
Officials, from Mayor Slay to Sen. Claire McCaskill, were outraged. Nixon’s stadium task force sent a point-by-point response to the league.
But, this past weekend, Goodell sent a report to all owners saying that the task force plan was inadequate.
Early on Tuesday, it seemed like St. Louis fans could hold on to hopes that owners might vote otherwise. The league’s Committee on Los Angeles Opportunities, made up of six influential owners, recommended in favor of the Carson project.
But by midday, it didn’t seem to matter. Kroenke’s proposal took top billing in early votes, and the owners broke several times, with L.A. committee members meeting in private with Spanos and Davis.
FUTURE OF NFL
IN ST. LOUISLate Tuesday a triumphant Kroenke took the stage, unflinchingly, in a large room at the Westin Hotel, site of the meeting. “This is the hardest undertaking that I’ve faced in my career,” Kroenke said. “I understand the emotional side.”
Kroenke, infamous for ducking the spotlight, spoke haltingly, but answered every question asked by dozens of reporters at the news conference. It was the most he had said to St. Louis in two years.
And he was unapologetic.
“We worked hard, got a little bit lucky, and had a lot of people help us,” he said, nodding to league staff.
“We have to have a first-class stadium product.”
After the press conference, as NFL security ushered Goodell away from the throngs, the commissioner stopped for a moment to discuss the NFL’s future in St. Louis.
“We haven’t had an opportunity to speak to the governor; of course, I will,” Goodell told the Post-Dispatch. “I think that’s got to be a decision we jointly have to make.
“It’s going to take a high-quality stadium that we’re comfortable with,” Goodell said. “That’s a starting point.”
And then, he said, they’ll have to match St. Louis to a team.
Kristen Taketa of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report from St. Louis.
January 13, 2016 at 10:01 am in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37101
znModeratorAmy Trask @AmyTrask
During my years in the league, I can count on one hand (w/fingers left to spare), the number of times that the (1/2)(2/2) recommendation of a committee & in those instances, the issue was tabled, rather than voted upon, while accommodations were made.
Andrew Brandt @AndrewBrandt
Been around NFL owners meetings a long time, cannot remember league turning its back on a committee recommendation (Carson) as yesterday.
znModeratorMy own personal feeling? …I grew up
watching the old blue-and-white Rams in LA.
The team in St.Louis wore red. And i liked the Cardinals
but they weren’t the Rams.When i see the old Blue and White uniforms
i get the same feeling as when i open an old box
of Christmas cards that my mom has saved. Its like that.
Warm feelings. Childhood memories. Thats how i feel
when i see the blue and whites.So, I’m glad they are returning to Los Angeles;
I KNOW now, finally, they will wear the blue and whites
from time to time. I really thought i’d never see that again.I have so many warm and poignant memories — Jack Snow, Les Josephson,
Deacon/Merlin (thats one word btw :),
Youngbloods, George Allen, Cullen Bryant, Alvin Hammond, Bob Brown,
McCutcheon, Slater, Diron Talbot, Coy Bacon, Billy Waddy, Ferragamo’s pass, Prothro, Knox, Harold Jackson, The Vikings, Joe Kapp, The Cowboys, Staubach, The 49ers, Brodie…the St.Louis thing, just never ever felt quite right to me. Deep down it always felt a bit off….…I know some of the St.Louis fans will stop following the team
and to state the obvious, thats fine. Everyone feels
‘connections’ to different things — some folks feel connected
to the city, some to the players, some to a coach, some to
the uniforms, etc. There’s no right or wrong to any of that,
obviously.As for me…my own totally-subjective-irrational-feeling is…
…the Rams belong in blue and whites, in Los Angeles.
…and the red and white Cardinals belong in St.Louis.
Or maybe the Stallions belong in St.Louis. Something
belongs in St.Louis.Georgia was a dick. Kronky is a dick. The NFL is a
soul-less-corporation. The ‘game’
and the conversation with the posters, about the game,
is still fun for me.Back to Los Angeles. I like it. I’ll still be living out
the questions and throw’in things at the tv
in West, by god, Virginia
w
vI sorta feel the same way you do. I like the city of St. Louis a lot and I like the fans from there that I’ve gotten to know over the years. I would have been fine with a vote that would have kept the Rams in St. Louis. But to me, LA is where the Rams belong. It has more of a connection to the deep history of the team and that’s really important to me.
Unlike you guys, I have no feeling that the Rams “belong” a certain place and I just as soon they weren’t going to LA, because if nothing else I think it will be a bad situation for them. (Though not for Kroenke.)
So I have no feeling that they belong in LA. Especially since I have lived near LA, and know it well enough to remember that basically, the Rams in LA were only one in a series of competing local attractions…including basketball, the Dodgers, USC, UCLA, and so on. It really is only good for Kroenke.
Beyond that as I have always said, for me, the Rams hometown is tv.
The real pertinent issue, for me, is all the St. Louis fans we will lose in the process. So I won’t be sitting there in the chat room feeling warm and glowy because they are in LA. Instead, I will be noticing and lamenting the missing members of our own community. Those guys mean far more to me than sunny home games in winter.
.
znModeratorMeet the Los Angeles Rams
Matt Wilhalme
http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-meet-the-los-angeles-rams-20160110-story.html
When the Rams picked up and moved to St. Louis after the 1995 season, they took with them a promising young running back, Jerome Bettis.
As they return to Los Angeles they’re bringing another budding star back, Todd Gurley.
Though comparing Bettis, a Pro Football Hall of Famer, to Gurley is truly unfair, the latter is the new young face of one of the NFL’s youngest teams.
The Rams have struggled in recent years to find a quarterback with the endurance to last a full season, and as such they’ve struggled in the passing game. They’ve also lacked a true No. 1 receiver.
The Rams haven’t seen a wideout break the 1,000-yard mark since 2007, when Torry Holt had 1,189 yards receiving. The Rams have the 15th overall pick in the 2016 draft and could address that need in May.
They have heavily invested in their defense with their top picks, selecting three defensive linemen and a linebacker with four of their seven first-round selections since 2011.
Here is an introduction to some of the franchise’s most important players.
OFFENSE
Case Keenum, quarterback
6 feet 1, 205 pounds
2015 STATISTICS
828 yards passing | 4 touchdowns | 1 interceptionCase Keenum
Quarterback Case Keenum looks to pass against San Francisco during a game against the 49ers on Jan. 3. (Ezra Shaw / Getty Images)
Keenum headed into the off-season as the Rams’ incumbent starter if he returns next season, since he’s a restricted free agent and not under contract for 2016. The four-year pro took the starting job late in the season from Nick Foles, whom St. Louis acquired from Philadelphia in a quarterback swap for Sam Bradford. Keenum, who went undrafted out of Houston in 2012, was 3-2 as a starter last season with four touchdown passes and one interception. He’s a pocket passer but has moves that can extend plays, though his offensive numbers won’t blow you away. Ultimately, though, the only number that matters is wins.Nick Foles, quarterback
6-6, 243
215 STATISTICS
2,052 yards passing | 7 touchdowns | 10 interceptionsNick Foles
Quarterback Nick Foles warms up before a game against the Seahawks in Seattle on Dec. 27. (Stephen Brashear / Associated Press)
The Rams traded for Foles with the idea that he’d step in and become their starting quarterback for the long term, even going as far as giving him a two-year contract extension before he played his first meaningful snap. Fast-forward to mid-November: Foles found himself on the bench after the team’s offense scored fewer than 19 points in five of nine starts. Foles struggled with accuracy, completing just 56.4% of his passes, but that wasn’t always the case. In 2013, Foles had 27 touchdowns with just two interceptions in 13 games as he led the Eagles to the NFC East title and their first playoff appearance since 2010.Todd Gurley, running back
6-1, 227
2015 STATISTICS
229 carries | 1,106 yards rushing | 10 touchdowns
21 catches | 188 yards receivingTodd Gurley
Todd Gurley rushed for 146 yards in 19 carries against the Cardinals during a game in Arizona on Dec. 6. (Michael B. Thomas / Getty Images)
Gurley was the first running back selected in the first round of the 2015 NFL draft (10th overall) and and led all rookies with 1,106 yards rushing and 10 touchdowns despite missing the first two games of the season while recovering from a torn anterior cruciate ligament he suffered in college at Georgia. His speed, power and field vision make him a dangerous offensive weapon. Gurley had 11 carries for more than 20 yards (second-most in the NFL) and five plays of 40-plus (most in the league).Kenny Britt, receiver
6-3, 223
2015 STATISTICS
36 catches | 681 yards receiving | 3 touchdownsRichard Sherman, Kenny Britt
Receiver Kenny Britt dives into the end zone for a 28-yard touchdown reception against the Seahawks during a game on Dec. 27. (John Froschauer / AP)
The former Titan has led the Rams in yards receiving in back-to-back years. Britt’s 18.9 yards per catch were the second-most in the league last season, thanks to his ability to get the deep ball. He had 11 grabs that went for more than 20 yards and five greater than 40.Tavon Austin, receiver
5-8, 176
2015 STATISTICS
52 catches | 473 yards receiving | 5 touchdowns
52 carries | 434 yards rushing | 4 touchdowns
34 punt returns | 268 return yards | 1 touchdownTavon Austin
Receiver Tavon Austin warms up before a game against the 49ers on Jan. 3. (Thearon W. Henderson / Getty Images)
Austin put together the best season of his career last year despite the Rams’ struggles on offense — St. Louis had the fewest passing yards per game. The No. 8 overall pick in the 2013 draft out of West Virginia is among the fastest players in the league, making him a threat as a receiver, running back or punt returner if he gets in space. Last year, Austin saw career highs in rushing yards and receiving yards.Tre Mason, running back
5-8, 207
2015 STATISTICS
75 carries | 207 yards rushing | 1 touchdown
18 catches | 88 yards receivingTre Mason
Running back Tre Mason finds some room to run against Tampa Bay during the Rams’ 31-23 victory over the Buccaneers on Dec. 17. (Dilip Vishwanat / Getty Images)
Mason led the Rams with 765 yards rushing and five total scores in 12 games in 2014, but he took a backseat to rookie Gurley in 2015, partly because of a hamstring injury suffered during the preseason. He was limited to fewer than 10 carries in 11 of the 13 games he appeared in this season, with his average yards per carry dropping from 4.8 to 2.8. Mason isn’t a bruiser, but his compact size and quickness allow him to slip through even the tiniest of holes in the defensive line.Jared Cook, tight end
6-5, 254
2015 STATISTICS
39 catches | 481 yards receivingJared Cook
Tight end Jared Cook makes a catch against the Seahawks during a game in Seattle on Dec. 27. (Stephen Brashear / Associated Press)
Cook failed to find pay dirt last season, but he was the Rams’ second-leading receiver with 481 yards and 19 grabs for first downs. The veteran tight end has had 16 touchdown grabs over seven NFL seasons, but saw his production dip in 2015 as the Rams shifted toward a run-first mentality. His size and speed make him a matchup problem for opposing defenses.DEFENSE
Aaron Donald, defensive tackle
6-1, 285
2015 STATISTICS
69 tackles | 22 tackles for loss | 11.0 sacksAaron Donald
Defensive tackle Aaron Donald sacks Detroit quarterback Matthew Stafford during the fourth quarter of a game on Dec. 13. (Dilip Vishwanat / Getty Images)
Donald earned first-team All-Pro honors in his second year in the league as he quietly put together one of the better seasons for a defensive player in 2015. He has uncommon quickness for a player of his size and doesn’t have to just overpower opposing offense to get to the quarterback. Donald has collected 20 sacks since he was selected with the 13th overall pick in 2014.Mark Barron, safety/linebacker
6-2, 213
2015 STATISTICS
116 tackles | 3 forced fumbles | 1 sackDavid Johnson, Mark Barron
Cardinals running back David Johnson (31) fumbles as he’s hit by Rams safety/linebacker Mark Barron during the third quarter of a game on Dec. 6. (Tom Gannam / Associated Press)
Barron converted from safety to a hybrid linebacker position last season because of an injury to linebacker Alec Ogletree. The move was a boon for Barron, who finished the season as the Rams’ leading tackler (116) and collected his fourth sack since joining St. Louis from Tampa Bay by trade in 2014. The seventh overall pick in the 2012 draft is a free agent.Robert Quinn, defensive end
6-4, 264
2015 STATISTICS
21 tackles | 5 sacks | 3 forced fumblesColin Kaepernick, Robert Quinn
San Francisco quarterback Colin Kaepernick, left, throws under pressure from Rams defensive end Robert Quinn during the first quarter of a game on Nov. 1. (Tom Gannam / Associated Press)
Rams top pass rusher Donald is able to do his job so well because of this man on the other side of the line. Quinn was limited to eight games in 2015 because of a knee and hip injuries and was ultimately put on injured reserve because of a back injury. He has recorded 50 sacks in five seasons, including 19.0 in 2013, when he was named an All-Pro. He underwent surgery on his back this month and could miss some time in training camp.James Laurinaitis, linebacker
6-2, 248
2015 STATISTICS
109 tackles | 1 forced fumble | 1.0 sackJames Laurinaitis
Rams linebacker James Laurinaitis (55) takes up his position during the third quarter of a game against the Cardinals on Dec. 6. (Tom Gannam / AP)
The former Ohio State linebacker is the Rams’ franchise record holder for most tackles after leading the team in takedowns in four of the last seven seasons. In that time he’s had 852 tackles, 16.5 sacks and 10 interceptions. He doesn’t make a whole lot of flashy plays, but he doesn’t give up a lot of big plays, either.Trumaine Johnson, cornerback
6-2, 208
2015 STATISTICS
71 tackles | 17 passes defensed | 7 interceptionsTrumaine Johnson, Tyler Lockett
Cornerback Trumaine Johnson, left, intercepts a pass intended for Seahawks receiver Tyler Lockett, center, during the first half of a game on Dec. 27. (John Froschauer / Associated Press)
Johnson put together the best season of his career in his final contract year with the Rams. He finished with a career-high 71 tackles and seven interceptions, tied for the third-most interceptions in the league. Among his biggest accomplishments of 2015 included holding Detroit receiver Calvin Johnson to just one catch for 16 yards on five targets.Janoris Jenkins, cornerback
5-10, 198
2015 STATISTICS
64 tackles | 15 passes defensed | 3 interceptionsTorrey Smith, Janoris Jenkins
San Francisco receiver Torrey Smith (82) tries to jump over Rams cornerback Janoris Jenkins (21) during overtime of a game on Jan. 3. (Tony Avelar / Associated Press)
Jenkins makes up the other half of the Rams’ cornerback tandem and he is also a free agent after posting some of the best numbers of his career. He’s started 58 of the 60 games he’s appeared in since he was drafted in the second round in 2012 and has established himself as the team’s best cornerback.Chris Long, defensive end
6-3, 268
2015 STATISTICS
19 tackles | 3 sacks | 1 forced fumbleChris Long
Defensive end Chris Long (91) had one tackle and sacked San Francisco quarterback Blaine Gabbert during the Rams’ season-ending loss to the 49ers, 19-16, in overtime on Jan. 3. (Marcio Jose Sanchez / Associated Press)
Long has been slowed the past two years by injuries but remains the Rams’ vocal veteran defensive leader and another threat to opposing quarterbacks with 54.5 sacks over eight seasons. Long is the son of Hall of Fame defensive end Howie Long and was born in Santa Monica, though the family moved to Virginia after the elder Long’s retirement.Rams | A look back
A brief visual history of the Rams in Southern CaliforniaJanuary 13, 2016 at 12:56 am in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37080
znModerator
znModeratorJim Fadler @jimiramsboy
About the last thing in the world I want to watch right now is Enos Stanley FFFFF Kroenke gloating on NFL Network. #HBOPleaseJim Fadler @jimiramsboy
Ya know I am not going to make any statements about never watching again but the rest of the season and the Super Bowl can suck it.January 13, 2016 at 12:08 am in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37077
znModeratorAndrew Brandt @AndrewBrandt
Kroenke thanks league office. They did a lot of the dirty work for him.Ross Tucker @RossTuckerNFL
So the city that did the most to keep their team is the only one definitely losing it?January 12, 2016 at 11:18 pm in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37071
znModeratorRams players react to team’s relocation to Los Angeles
http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/12/los-angeles-rams-players-react-twitter-relocation-st-louis
he Rams will be leaving St. Louis and moving to Los Angeles, and players on the team took some time on Tuesday evening to thank the city for all of their support, and express excitement toward the future.
The most notable comments came from defensive end Chris Long, who tweeted a four-part goodbye to St. Louis and hello to L.A.
Chris Long @JOEL9ONE
Humbly, eternally gratefully: Thank you St. Louis. I’m sorry we fell short the past 8 years. You treated me like family anyways. I love yallI will always remain involved in trying to continue to give back to the community that supported me through thick and thin.
Los Angeles
You are getting a team that is hungry to win. See y’all soon.Here’s linebacker Alec Ogletree:
#thereturn it’s official!!! Appreciate the support and love we got here in stl. Def will miss this place. Now it’s time for a fresh start!!!
Some of you kill me with your tweets. If you love the rams then it shouldn’t matter where we play we are still #RAMILY here or there!!
Defensive end Robert Quinn:
Thank you St. Louis for all the great memories created and thank you fans for all the support!
Linebacker Akeem Ayers, who was born in Los Angeles and attended UCLA:
Coming Back Home To Play Football Professionally Where It All Started. Verbum Dei HS To UCLA Now Los Angeles Rams.
Linebacker James Laurinaitis:

Running back Chase Reynolds:
I can’t thank STL for the amount of love they’ve showed over the last 5 years. It’s a business and I understand that. Appreciate all of you!
January 12, 2016 at 11:09 pm in reply to: reporters on the Rams to LA vote (1/12-1/13 so far) #37070
znModeratorThe following is new content from Rams Newsroom:
RAMS TO RETURN TO LOS ANGELESFollowing a vote from National Football League owners, the Rams officially have been approved to return to the greater Los Angeles area and will do so for the 2016 NFL season. The organization called Los Angeles home from 1946-1994.
“This has been the most difficult process of my professional career,” said Rams owner E. Stanley Kroenke. “While we are excited about the prospect of building a new stadium in Inglewood, California, this is bitter sweet. St. Louis is a city known for its incredibly hard-working, passionate and proud people. Being part of the group that brought the NFL back to St. Louis in 1995 is one of the proudest moments of my professional career. Reaching two Super Bowls and winning one are things all St. Louisans should always treasure.
“While there understandably has been emotionally charged commentary regarding our motives and intentions, the speculation is not true and unfounded. I am a Missouri native named after two St. Louis sports legends who I was fortunate enough to know on a personal level. This move isn’t about whether I love St. Louis or Missouri. I do and always will. No matter what anyone says, that will never change. This decision is about what is in the best long-term interests of the Rams organization and the National Football League. We have negotiated in good faith with the Regional Sports Authority for more than a decade trying to find a viable and sustainable solution. When it became apparent that we might not be able to reach an agreement, it was then and only then that we looked at alternatives.
“We would like to thank the National Football League, its owners, and the Committee on Los Angeles Opportunities for their diligence and dedication. We look forward to returning to Los Angeles and building a world-class NFL entertainment district in Inglewood.”
znModeratorI hope our community St. Louisans will stay on as Rams fans.
I have always had the Rams on tv. The main thing for me beyond that is to chat about the team with the people who have come with us this far.
….
znModeratorover at the original herd someone is claiming revote went 30-2 rams to los angeles.
Rams move to Los Angeles approved by NFL owners
National Football League owners on Tuesday voted overwhelmingly to move the Rams from St. Louis and send the team to owner Stan Kroenke’s proposed $1.9 billion stadium in Los Angeles County, David Hunn of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports.
The owners also agreed, after more than 10 hours of presentations and negotiations, to allow Dean Spanos to move his San Diego Chargers — but not to the site he proposed, one of the sources said. Instead, after multiple closed-door meetings, Spanos agreed to begin negotiating a deal to move the Chargers into Kroenke’s stadium in Inglewood, southwest of downtown L.A.
The two will each pay a relocation fee, reported earlier at $550 million.
Oakland Raiders owner Mark Davis is, for now, left out of moving plans. Spanos had worked with him for at least a year on a two-team stadium in Carson, Calif., just south of Kroenke’s site.
Most anticipate Davis will get cash from the relocation fees to use on a new stadium in Oakland.
NFL owners had to vote twice to cut the deal. The first favored Kroenke, 20-12, but failed to get the necessary three-fourths of the league’s 32 owners, as required when a team applies to move to a new city.
Results of the second vote were not yet available.
But the final decision, reached after night fell and in the face of weeks of speculation otherwise, left St. Louis without an NFL team, again.
====
Rams moving to L.A.; Chargers have option to join them in Inglewood
http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-los-angeles-owners-meeting-htmlstory.html
A 21-year odyssey came to an end Tuesday when National Football League owners voted to allow the St. Louis Rams to move to Los Angeles for the 2016 season and gave the San Diego Chargers an option to join the Rams in Inglewood.
Their home will ultimately be on site of the old Hollywood Park racetrack in Inglewood in what will be the league’s biggest stadium, a low-slung, glass-roofed football palace with a projected opening in 2019 and a price tag that could approach $3 billion.
At an unremarkable suburban hotel, NFL owners found a way to return professional football to Los Angeles, something a succession of billionaires, political heavyweights and Hollywood power brokers couldn’t do for decades.
The historic vote was 30-2 in favor of the Rams and possibly Chargers sharing the Inglewood Stadium, according to a person who witnessed the vote. An official announcement is expected shortly
znModeratornfl network is now saying rams to los angeles with chargers having the option to move.
Expectation is owners to award Rams’ Inglewood site
The expectation is for the Rams going to the Inglewood site with a second team option, Ian Rapoport of NFL Network reports. First going to Chargers, then Raiders.
The Raiders have reportedly bowed out.
znModeratorMartin Kilcoyne @martinkilcoyne2
The #NFL owners began voting process with each proposal voted on. Inglewood #Rams vote was 21-8-3. 21 for. 8 against. 3 abstained. #fox2====
No relocation proposal gets enough support in NFL owners’ first round of voting
The Chargers, Raiders and Rams have begun meeting individually with the NFL’s six-owner Committee on Los Angeles Opportunities after two relocation proposals failed to get the required 24 votes during a first round of voting Tuesday, Scott Reid of the Orange County Register.
A proposal for the Rams and Chargers to be approved for relocation to Inglewood received 20 votes, while a proposal for the Chargers and Raiders moving to Carson garnered 12 votes.
While the teams are meeting with the Los Angeles committee, team officials have been busy holding sidebar discussions with other owners and senior NFL staff.
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Rams deny Kroenke warned owners not to cross him
Sources say Rams owner Stan Kroenke told the ownership group in so many words they could be guilty of collusion if they choose the Chargers-Raiders project in Carson instead of his plans for a stadium in Inglewood. He essentially warned them not to cross him, Howard Balzer reports for KSDK TV in St. Louis. The Rams denied that Kroenke said that to the owners.
znModeratorfrom off the net
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alyoshamucci
what position will provide BPA for the Rams at #15?
The best player available at 15 will be a CB. I have a really high top end this draft. And a very good second tier.
Second best is QB. There are five talented physical passers. They just don’t come around every year.
Second round … WR and DE will be bpa because that second tier is HIGH QUALITY AND DEEP.
znModeratorTim Kawakami @timkawakami
Right now, there’s a lot of focus in coaching circles on John DeFilippo. It’s assumed the 49ers want him as their OC. What HC fits w/that?January 12, 2016 at 1:29 pm in reply to: PFF's 5 best players of 2015 + their rookie of the year + SI rookie of the year #37033
znModeratorfrom Sporting News NFL awards 2015: Players of the year, All-Pro team, more
Rookie of the Year
Todd Gurley, RB, Rams
Gurley needed no more than 12 starts to prove his worth — even at running back — as the Rams’ first-round draft pick; the No. 10 overall selection. And in the eyes of fellow players and league executives, he was the best rookie for the 2015 season … by far. Gurley’s vote total more than doubled that of second-place Amari Cooper. In 12 starts, Gurley finished third in the NFL with 1,106 rushing yards. He scored 10 rushing touchdowns, the second-highest number in the league. His 4.8 yards per carry were more than that of league rushing leader Adrian Peterson. He ran with authority, purpose and prowess. Broken tackles became routine. Greatness was verified.
January 12, 2016 at 11:21 am in reply to: PFF's 5 best players of 2015 + their rookie of the year + SI rookie of the year #37026
znModeratorPFF’S 2015 ROOKIE OF THE YEAR
Analyst Nathan Jahnke reveals PFF’s selection for Rookie of the Year, as well as four runners-up for the honor.https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/12/pro-pffs-2015-rookie-of-the-year/
One of the NFL’s most popular honors, Rookie of the Year takes into account a player’s full contribution, including offense, defense, and special teams. PFF also take into account the learning curve for the position, and how well rookie players typically perform in that role.
Below you’ll find PFF’s Rookie of the Year selection for the 2015 NFL season, as well as four runners-up who kept the race tight.
Winner
Jameis Winston, QB, Tampa Bay BuccaneersWhile Tampa Bay, as a team, didn’t have a season to remember, Jameis Winston made the Buccaneers look pretty smart by drafting him first overall. After a slow Week 1 start, Winston was a top 10 quarterback from Week 2 and on.
While some young quarterbacks in recent years have played conservatively and relied on the talent around them, Winston was asked to do much more with lesser talent. His average depth of target of 10.3 was the fifth-highest among quarterbacks this year behind MVP candidates Carson Palmer, Cam Newton, and Ben Roethlisberger. He accomplished a 4,000-yard season despite a below-average offensive line in pass blocking efficiency. On paper, he has a strong receiving core around him, but Austin Seferian-Jenkins missed over half the season, and Vincent Jackson missed six games. The Buccaneers lacked consistency from their third and fourth wide receiver spots.
Where Winston was most impressive was his big-time throws. He had 39, which tied him for sixth-best alongside Tom Brady. If he can take away some of the negatives, the former FSU standout could be a Pro Bowler by his second season. When you consider how many outright busts there have been at quarterback over the past three years, and how long it’s taken for others to develop, the fact that Winston was this good this early is incredibly impressive.
First runner-up
Ronald Darby, CB, Buffalo BillsAlthough another rookie cornerback attracted more media attention, Ronald Darby was the most consistent first-year CB this season. His 87.1 PFF grade places him fourth-best among cornerbacks, while is 13 passes defended were tied for fifth-most. He allowed a low 54.3 percent catch rate and 11.6 yards per catch, which are both below the league average for cornerbacks. His 11.9 tackling efficiency was also good for the top 20 at the position. Teams tried to take advantage of him by targeting him 105 times, which was fifth-most, but they rarely were able to beat him. His 660 yards allowed were the fewest among the 10 most-targeted cornerbacks.
Some might prefer Marcus Peters here because he had more positive plays than Darby, including more interceptions and passes defended. Peters led all cornerbacks in positively-graded coverage plays, but Darby wasn’t far behind at sixth-best. However, cornerback is more of a position meant to prevent big plays, as opposed to making big ones. Peters had the second-most negatively-graded plays in coverage, just behind Brandon Browner, while Darby wasn’t even in the top 15.
Regardless of who you prefer, both of these players are especially impressive when you consider the typical play of rookie cornerbacks. We’ve seen rookie CBs be successful in recent years, but typically just in part-time roles. Ronald Darby was able to become a day one starter—and keep the job—despite other good cornerbacks on the roster, and never allowed a 100-yard game.
Second runner-up
Leonard Williams, DT, New York JetsWhen the Jets drafted Williams, we weren’t sure how much playing time he would get with the other talented defensive linemen on the roster. The Jets found a way to get him on the field, though, which led to 827 snaps by Williams—over 150 more than any other rookie interior defender. We often see rookie defensive linemen who can contribute as a pass rusher or a run defender, but is a liability in the other area. Williams was the rare player who could contribute in both facets immediately.
Against the run, Williams’ 26 run stops were the sixth-most for 3-4 defensive ends. His PFF run defense rating of 90.4 ended up being eighth-best for all 3-4 defensive linemen or 4-3 defensive tackles. As a pass rusher, he had 50 total pressures, seventh-best for 3-4 defensive ends. He had 23 combined sacks and hits, which was just behind J.J. Watt and Muhammad Wilkerson at the position. While we see rookie defensive linemen making impacts every year, Williams was able to be one of the better linemen in the league in 2015, making him a clear top-three rookie on the year.
Third runner-up
Tyler Lockett, WR/KR/PR, Seattle SeahawksWhile plenty of receivers came into the season with a lot of hype, Tyler Lockett was one of the few to exceed expectations. He wasn’t the most targeted receiver of the group, but when he was thrown at, the Seahawks had an NFL passer rating of 130.4, which was the second-most for any receiver this year. He stood out from Amari Cooper because he had far fewer drops (three versus 18), and his special teams contribution helped him stand out from Stefon Diggs. He was named the PFF All-Pro second team punt returner, and the AP All-Pro first team returner. He had the third-most kick return yards and fourth-most punt return yards, the only player top five in both.
Fourth runner-up
Todd Gurley, HB, St. Louis RamsWhile Todd Gurley didn’t play a complete season, and we’ve seen plenty of rookie running backs succeed in the past, what Gurley did in 2015 was impressive in its own right. He was the fourth-most elusive back this year, with an elusive rating of 53.9. He made 42 players miss tackles on his carries, which was fifth-most in the league. (That was with everyone higher on the list having more carries than him.) He averaged 4.8 yards per carry, despite running behind the seventh-worst run blocking offensive line in the league. For now, we can say he was one of the best rookie runners this year; but behind a better offensive line and a full season of work, we should see some pretty impressive numbers from Gurley in the future.
January 12, 2016 at 12:51 am in reply to: Thomas, Wagoner, etc. on Ogletree, Gaines, recovery #37009
znModeratorE.J. Gaines looking forward to return from injury in 2016
Nick Wagoner
EARTH CITY, Mo. — Among the many injuries the St. Louis Rams suffered on defense in 2015, the one that might have been most forgotten is the season-ending foot injury to cornerback E.J. Gaines early in training camp.
If nothing else, Gaines’ injury was the furthest removed from the mind and eventually buried under a pile of ailments to key players like ends Robert Quinn and Chris Long, linebacker Alec Ogletree and safety T.J. McDonald with only Long not landing on injured reserve.
The injury, a freak incident in which receiver Kenny Britt stepped on him during one-on-one drills, didn’t feel like a serious one to Gaines when it first happened. When well-known foot specialist Dr. Robert Anderson diagnosed a Lisfranc injury that would require season-ending surgery, Gaines was surprised.
“It was tough,” Gaines said last week. “You want to be out there with your brothers but it’s football. Injuries happen. I’m just excited to get back for next season. I can’t wait. I’m excited for the football team and the coaches are excited to get me back as well.”
The lost season was undoubtedly a disappointment for Gaines and the Rams. St. Louis used a sixth-round pick on Gaines in the 2014 NFL draft and emerged as one of the most pleasant surprises of his draft class. He started 15 games as a rookie, playing inside and out and posting two interceptions, two fumble recoveries, 70 tackles and eight pass breakups.
Gaines entered training camp as the favorite to win a competition for the starting job against Trumaine Johnson. But that competition never materialized after Gaines’ injury as Johnson went on to his best NFL season. Gaines spent most of the season waiting to get his rehabilitation going, shuttling back and forth between St. Louis and Kansas City.
When Gaines spoke to assembled media last week, it was the first time he’d done so since suffering the injury.
“My guys, the DBs, were definitely there for me,” Gaines said. “I was getting texts from Trumaine and [safety] Maurice Alexander all the time. They helped keep me in the loop as much as possible.”
Now, Gaines is moving closer to a return and estimated that he’ll be ready to go in time for at least some of the Rams’ offseason program.
“It’s going well,” Gaines said. “I’ve had a couple of surgeries to get screws in and out, but everything’s going good. I just got my stitches and screws out a couple of weeks ago, so I’m just kind of getting back, just now starting to do a little jogging and running. … But I definitely expect to be ready to go for OTAs.”
January 12, 2016 at 12:51 am in reply to: Thomas, Wagoner, etc. on Ogletree, Gaines, recovery #37008
znModeratorRams’ Gaines eager to get back
Joe Lyons
It was just a fluke play, but it ended up costing Rams cornerback E.J. Gaines his 2015 season.
During the first weekend of training camp in August, Gaines, a University of Missouri product, went down with a foot injury that resulted in season-ending surgery.
“Just a freak accident,” the second-year pro said early this week at Rams Park in his first public comments since suffering the injury. “Kenny Britt stepped on me during one-on-one drills early in camp. Honestly, I didn’t think much of it at the time. I was walking on it, I actually walked off the field that day.
“When I got the X-rays and everything back, I was surprised.”
After paying a visit to Dr. Robert Anderson, a nationally renowned foot and ankle specialist who serves as team physician for the Carolina Panthers, Gaines underwent season-ending surgery to repair a Lisfranc foot injury. The Lisfranc injury refers to the bones or torn ligaments where a cluster of small bones forms an arch on the top of the foot.
“It’s going well,” the 23-year-old Gaines said Monday. “I’ve had a couple of surgeries to get screws in and out, but everything’s going good. I just got my stitches and screws out a couple of weeks ago, so I’m just kind of getting back, just now starting to do a little jogging and running.
“But I definitely expect to be ready to go for OTAs.”
Organized team activities are generally held in May and June.
A steal in the 2014 draft for the Rams, Gaines was selected in the sixth round, at No. 188 overall, but far outplayed his draft position by starting the first 15 games of his rookie season to earn a spot on the Pro Football Writers of America All-Rookie squad. The 5-foot-10, 190-pounder from Independence, Mo., saw time at cornerback and nickel back, finished fourth on the team with 105 tackles and led the way with 14 pass defenses. In addition, he picked off two passes and recovered a pair of fumbles.
He sat out the 2014 season finale in Seattle due to a concussion.
“I came in and worked hard, trying to make plays and do what the coaches asked,” Gaines said during an interview a few weeks before the start of training camp last summer. “As a rookie, you always feel like you have something more to learn, that you’re trying to catch up. I still have plenty of work to do, but with that first year under my belt, I feel like I have a better feel for what we’re doing defensively and what I need to do to get ready for the season.”
In a somewhat ironic twist, Gaines’ chance to start as a rookie came after fellow corner Trumaine Johnson went down with a knee injury in the preseason. Entering camp this year, Gaines was set to battle Johnson at cornerback and second-year pro Lamarcus Joyner at the nickel spot.
After Gaines went down, Johnson responded with the best season of his pro career, finishing with a team-best seven interceptions. In a home win over Detroit, he returned an interception 58 yards for a touchdown. Johnson, a fourth-year pro, was eighth on the squad with 69 tackles and had 12 pass breakups this season.
“It was tough (being hurt because) you want to be out there with your brothers,” Gaines said earlier this week. “But it’s football. Injuries happen. I’m just excited to get back for next season. I can’t wait. I’m excited for the football team and the coaches are excited to get me back as well.”
He credited his teammates, especially those in the secondary, for helping him work through the rehab process.
“My guys, the DBs, were definitely there for me,” he said. “I was getting texts from Trumaine and (safety) Maurice Alexander all the time. They helped keep me in the loop as much as possible.”
Uncertainty surrounds the Rams’ secondary these days with safety T.J. McDonald, who finished the season on IR after undergoing shoulder surgery, as the lone starter under contract. Cornerbacks Johnson and Janoris Jenkins and safety Rodney McLeod are all free agents.
“Honestly, I’m hoping for the best, hoping they’re all back,” Gaines said. “We’ve got a bunch of young guys who’ve really been coming together. It’s exciting. It was exciting to see guys like Maurice Alexander get a chance to show what he could do. You want as many good players as possible in your secondary. I’m just hoping we can get everybody back and healthy and ready to go for 2016.”
Gaines started the final 37 games and earned All-SEC honors as a senior at Mizzou. He likes the choice of Barry Odom as the Tigers’ new head coach.
“I love coach Odom. He coached the safeties when I was there and he was one of my favorite coaches,’’ Gaines said. “We hated to see him go (to Memphis), but I was excited to see him come back and I’m glad to see him get this shot.
“He’s an intense guy and I like that he’s a defensive-minded coach. He’s definitely a players’ coach.’’
January 11, 2016 at 10:23 pm in reply to: the All-Prospect Team in CFP National Championship Game – tonight #37002
znModeratorJust an impression from the half, but, Coker reminds me of Foles.
znModeratorHow about RG3 in a Rams uniform? Wouldn’t that put an exclamation point on that trade?
I think they should sign both RG3 and Bradford.
Then, trade them both.
znModerator49ers get permission to speak with Tom Coughlin
In one of the more surprising storylines of the offseason,69-year-old former Giants head coach Tom Coughlin will meet with the 49ers this week for their head coaching vacancy, Ian Rapoport of NFL Network reports via Conor Orr of NFL.com.
Fox Sports first reported the news. The Giants gave permission to both clubs, as Coughlin still has a year remaining on his contract.
Bruce Arians, Pete Carroll — and really Coughlin himself — helped break down the coaching age barrier over the last few years, and Coughlin most certainly still has passion to coach. He stepped down from the Giants job last week, but only in name. The Giants wanted to move on after more than a decade and two Super Bowls, and Coughlin was more than excited to address his future during an inspiring press conference.
While the Eagles job may be more of an information-gathering session, the 49ers job shows that Coughlin is a very serious candidate. As Jed York and general manager Trent Baalke scramble to pick up the pieces from a year ago, an organized disciplinarian like Coughlin may be the way to go. Coughlin’s personnel experience is also underrated among head coaches, and he might be able to aid Baalke in retooling a roster that lost so many of its stars.
January 11, 2016 at 7:01 pm in reply to: Prisco: Bengals' implosion straight out of the handbook on football stupidity #36991
znModeratorOh.
Yes but(to continue the joke) here, banning is different.
Here, when you’re banned, you can never leave.
.
znModeratorI thought a whole buncha guys came through this year and I attribute it to GW’a coaching. Johnson and Jenkins. Roberson…and I didn’t expect that one. Joyner. Barron. Ogletree. Ayers. Fairley. That’s a lot.
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