board response to the NFL vote…Rams to LA

[zn]

nittany ram wrote:

wv wrote:

My own personal feeling? …I grew up
watching the old blue-and-white Rams in LA.
The team in St.Louis wore red. And i liked the Cardinals
but they weren’t the Rams.

When i see the old Blue and White uniforms
i get the same feeling as when i open an old box
of Christmas cards that my mom has saved. Its like that.
Warm feelings. Childhood memories. Thats how i feel
when i see the blue and whites.

So, I’m glad they are returning to Los Angeles;
I KNOW now, finally, they will wear the blue and whites
from time to time. I really thought i’d never see that again.

I have so many warm and poignant memories — Jack Snow, Les Josephson,
Deacon/Merlin (thats one word btw :),
Youngbloods, George Allen, Cullen Bryant, Alvin Hammond, Bob Brown,
McCutcheon, Slater, Diron Talbot, Coy Bacon, Billy Waddy, Ferragamo’s pass, Prothro, Knox, Harold Jackson, The Vikings, Joe Kapp, The Cowboys, Staubach, The 49ers, Brodie…the St.Louis thing, just never ever felt quite right to me. Deep down it always felt a bit off….

…I know some of the St.Louis fans will stop following the team
and to state the obvious, thats fine. Everyone feels
‘connections’ to different things — some folks feel connected
to the city, some to the players, some to a coach, some to
the uniforms, etc. There’s no right or wrong to any of that,
obviously.

As for me…my own totally-subjective-irrational-feeling is…
…the Rams belong in blue and whites, in Los Angeles.
…and the red and white Cardinals belong in St.Louis.
Or maybe the Stallions belong in St.Louis. Something
belongs in St.Louis.

Georgia was a dick. Kronky is a dick. The NFL is a
soul-less-corporation. The ‘game’
and the conversation with the posters, about the game,
is still fun for me.

Back to Los Angeles. I like it. I’ll still be living out
the questions and throw’in things at the tv
in West, by god, Virginia

w
v

I sorta feel the same way you do. I like the city of St. Louis a lot and I like the fans from there that I’ve gotten to know over the years. I would have been fine with a vote that would have kept the Rams in St. Louis. But to me, LA is where the Rams belong. It has more of a connection to the deep history of the team and that’s really important to me.

Unlike you guys, I have no feeling that the Rams “belong” a certain place and I just as soon they weren’t going to LA, because if nothing else I think it will be a bad situation for them. (Though not for Kroenke.)

So I have no feeling that they belong in LA. Especially since I have lived near LA, and know it well enough to remember that basically, the Rams in LA were only one in a series of competing local attractions…including basketball, the Dodgers, USC, UCLA, and so on. It really is only good for Kroenke.

Beyond that as I have always said, for me, the Rams hometown is tv.

The real pertinent issue, for me, is all the St. Louis fans we will lose in the process. So I won’t be sitting there in the chat room feeling warm and glowy because they are in LA. Instead, I will be noticing and lamenting the missing members of our own community. Those guys mean far more to me than sunny home games in winter.

.

[21Dog]

The real pertinent issue, for me, is all the St. Louis fans we will lose in the process. So I won’t be sitting there in the chat room feeling warm and glowy because they are in LA. Instead, I will be noticing and lamenting the missing members of our own community. Those guys mean far more to me than sunny home games in winter.

.—————————-

That’s why, despite them moving to within three hours of me, I feel little joy re. this move.

The good folks of St. Louis don’t deserve this, just like the fans in California didn’t deserve it in ’95.

[nittany ram]

21Dog wrote:

The real pertinent issue, for me, is all the St. Louis fans we will lose in the process. So I won’t be sitting there in the chat room feeling warm and glowy because they are in LA. Instead, I will be noticing and lamenting the missing members of our own community. Those guys mean far more to me than sunny home games in winter.

.—————————-

That’s why, despite them moving to within three hours of me, I feel little joy re. this move.

The good folks of St. Louis don’t deserve this, just like the fans in California didn’t deserve it in ’95.

Yeah, I’m really saddened by the fact that we are going to lose some really good people from this board. I’m hoping some eventually come back.

[zn]

This is such a complicated issue.

And such an important discussion.

I will say this. I never really watched the blue and white Rams, so my memories of LA are not as vivid.

My great memories of Rams home games include the Vikes playoff game in 99, with what was then one of the loudest venues in the league. And before that, the dome going crazy in the 99 home game against SF, when everyone finally realized what the Rams were that year.

And this last year, in spite of the losses and the impending move, the dome was half full but STILL loud. I was very proud of that.

..

[wv]

zn wrote:

The real pertinent issue, for me, is all the St. Louis fans we will lose in the process. So I won’t be sitting there in the chat room feeling warm and glowy because they are in LA. Instead, I will be noticing and lamenting the missing members of our own community. Those guys mean far more to me than sunny home games in winter.

—————————

Sure. True. But to state the obvious,
the St.Louis fans are perfectly welcome on
the Nomad-Train, with so many of us,
Non-locals.

Nomad life is good. No parking hassles.
No need to pay Kronky’s ticket-prices.
No need to sit behind a guy with a
giant watermelon on his head,
reading Shakespeare.(probably zooey)

Also, I am not sure the LA thing will be
bad for the team. They went to a Super Bowl
in 79 and had plenty of near-misses in LA.
So they can do fine, even with all the
surrounding fan-distractions.

Anywayz….strange times. kinda surreal.
Kronky fires St.Louis instead of Fisher.
It’ll take some time to process all this.

w
v

[zn]

wv wrote:

Sure. True. But to state the obvious,
the St.Louis fans are perfectly welcome on
the Nomad-Train, with so many of us,
Non-locals.

Well, that’s true, and they know they’re welcome. Some are resentful anyway, and it seems to me there are good reasons for that. SK had an opportunity to stay in St. Louis but clearly preferred the glamor and money of LA, and in the process he basically became the 2nd NFL owner to dump St. Louis.

Not only am I, personally, in no position to tell anyone to ignore all that, it doesn’t matter anyway…it’s not the important issue for me. I personally am not going to compensate for the absence of particular community members by thinking well they COULD HAVE come along if they wanted to; no, I am just going to lament their absence, period. What is our community if a third of us leave.

You and I have always been nomads. We didn’t lose anything when the Rams left LA. BUT since they left LA something new has emerged in the world–cyber communities. So speaking just for myself, I don’t find that I just uphold the nomad view and recommend it to others. Instead, I find my real response is to feel bad about losses in the community.

Watching the Rams will still be the same. Once a nomad always a nomad. Talking about them online won’t be the same. Or that’s my concern anyway.

…

[Dak]

Say what you will about the dome, but in the Rams’ heyday, it was imposing for the opposition. It could have been improved to be a nicer game day experience, but spending $700M on it was never going to happen. Turns out, that would be the only counter-offer St. Louis would receive.

I obviously have no connection to the old LA Rams days. The best memories for me were the GSOT days, and all of the fans I’ve met online.

The Rams were important to St. Louis, I think. And, no matter how anyone spins it, this is a devastating blow to sports fans in this region, if not the region itself. A new stadium is not going to revitalize St. Louis. It wouldn’t be a cure, at all, to the problems of poverty and crime that can with a declining inner city. But, it would have improved the riverfront, and that would have been better than just having the Rams leave.

With the economy heating up some, perhaps the Ed will actually create more revenue through conventions, I don’t know. The Mayor of St. Louis says that the City needs to concentrate on tourism. I have no idea how that will all work … St. Louis truly needs a vision, and maybe some of the people who helped lead this stadium effort will work with politicians to come up with some other economic development plan that will be fruitful year-round.

I, personally, have been trying to wrap my head around this. It’s all Stan Kroenke. He’s the architect of this move. He made it happen. I have to hand it to him. He can say anything and believe himself, I guess. But, he’s “a businessman” first. When given options to be a folk hero locally or strike for gold in California, well, that was an easy decision for him. I think he actually might have been surprised that he’s been eviscerated locally. That’s really amazing to me, but I do detect that he thinks he’s being portrayed unfairly, and that he really is a great Missourian … who had no option but to strike the big deal.

Will I support the NFL again? Right now, no, I say that I won’t. I say that, not because of Kroenke. But, because this is a second time we’ve lost a team, and this time the NFL acted like St. Louis had a chance to keep the Rams if there was a plan. From what I understand, there was no chance. The NFL now wants St. Louis as it’s next alternate plan for franchises who need leverage for new stadium deals. I say fuck that noise. Let all the teams stay where they’re at. I don’t think I’d want to support another NFL team, even if it locates here. I didn’t expect to feel that way, and I’m surprised to find out that I do.

I’m going to try to think of productive things to do when I would otherwise be talking/thinking about/watching the Rams. That’s all I’ve got right now.

[InvaderRam]

yup. dak and ag and herzog and so many more i’m forgetting. great posters. there’s gonna be change on this board. sucks. hopefully guys come back.

[Eternal Ramnation]

I’m glad they’re coming home but sad for St.Louis fans. I grew up in LA and watched an owner dismantle a great team for her own selfish reasons and now I’m watching another ultra rich asshole do it again hurting a lot of great people I never would have met if the Rams stayed in L.A.

[wv]

I would ‘think’ (just guessing) that the move
will be good for the Rams ‘psychologically’.
I mean they have this decade-long streak
of losing and mediocrity.

What better way to begin a New chapter
than by…beginning a new chapter. Ya know.
New look, new location, new culture, new vibe.
Just seems like if i were a coach,
I’d say the move was a ‘positive’ thing.

Otoh, the ole Rams were often criticized
for not being able to go east and play
in the cold weather. The thought
was that they got a little ‘soft’
in Hollywood. California never seemed
to hurt the 49ers though. So…we’ll see.

w
v

[Herzog]

I can’t speak. It was just cruel the way this all played out. A very beaten up city dug deep and found a great plan to build a new stadium. A city that accomodated the needs of the team. Something L.A. , Oakland, san Diego were not willing to do.

I can’t speak. Why pretend we mattered. We never mattered. St. Louis never mattered. They learned their lesson when The Cardinals left. They did it right this time. But it didn’t matter.

I feel nothing but sorrow and anguish. My wife doesn’t know the difference between a touchdown and a slam dunk, but she saw my face and understood how much this hurt. God bless her. God bless all of you L.A. ram fans that are getting your team back. Somewhere, underneath the anguish and pain I really am happy for you.

I can’t speak.

I’m not sure at which point I fell in love with this team. I wish I hadn’t.

[Dak]

wv wrote:

I would ‘think’ (just guessing) that the move
will be good for the Rams ‘psychologically’.
I mean they have this decade-long streak
of losing and mediocrity.

What better way to begin a New chapter
than by…beginning a new chapter. Ya know.
New look, new location, new culture, new vibe.
Just seems like if i were a coach,
I’d say the move was a ‘positive’ thing.

Otoh, the ole Rams were often criticized
for not being able to go east and play
in the cold weather. The thought
was that they got a little ‘soft’
in Hollywood. California never seemed
to hurt the 49ers though. So…we’ll see.

w
v

San Fran and L.A. are pretty different in climate, I believe.

[wv]

Herzog wrote:

…I can’t speak.

I’m not sure at which point I fell in love with this team. I wish I hadn’t.

Well, lemme just ask…
How many games did you actually attend though Herzog?
Wasn’t your fan-experience basically
TV, Internet, Message-Boards ?

You still have that, just like zn, and
Nittany and PaRam, and Snowman, etc, etc.

Agree with you totally on the Kronky thing,
though. Yup. He screwed lotsa fans. Same as Georgia.
That aint the “Rams” though — thats Kronky.
And Georgia.

w
v

[Herzog]

logically, I know you are right.

Logic is not on the forefront of my brain at the moment.

[wv]

Herzog wrote:

logically, I know you are right.

Logic is not on the forefront of my brain at the moment.

I hear ya.

w
v

[snowman]

I feel awful for the Rams fans in and around Saint Louis. People who feel that the Rams were part of the Saint Louis community must feel like a whole neighborhood just moved away, or the local schools just closed their doors. It’s the feeling of being dumped for a better looking guy with more money and a nicer car, and it really hurts.

I remember when the North Stars moved to Dallas. Nearly the same scenario; new-ish owner looking for bigger revenues finds a better deal elsewhere and packs up the team. Owners used to be individuals, running the team like a family business with roots where they played. Now are national or international developers or corporations who care more about the bottom line than the city where they live and work. I suppose that many don’t even have a residence where they own the team, or they have several and don’t feel like part of the community. Leaving the way they did will make a lot of fans in Saint Louis jaded about another team, and that will be noticed by any team looking to move – Oakland for example right now. It will be hard for the city and state to trust another NFL owner who might come to town. It’s a shame.

[Herzog]

“This is not America……”

every time I see your name I think of this song….anyone know whY?

[zn]

Herzog wrote:

“This is not America……”

every time I see your name I think of this song….anyone know whY?

David Bowie.

Song from The Falcon and the Snowman.

From off the net:

===

DAVID BOWIE R.I.P. (from Pat)

https://www.facebook.com/PatMetheny/?fref=nf

Working with David Bowie on “This Is Not America” was an incredible experience. I had written the song as the main theme for the score for “The Falcon and the Snowman”. After traveling to Mexico City where the filming was taking place and watching Sean Penn and Timothy Hutton do a few scenes, I went back to my room and the whole piece came very quickly.
Later while in London recording the score, John Schlesinger, the director of the film, suggested a collaboration with David Bowie for a version of the song to go over the final credits. David came to a screening of the film and I sat near him as he saw the picture for the first time. He had a yellow legal pad on his lap and was writing constantly. At the end of the film, he had a list of maybe 30 (brilliant) song titles that he had thought of while watching. One of them was “This Is Not America”, a line from the film.
David took the music with him and a month later the core of my band and I traveled to Montreux, Switzerland to join him in his studio to record the single. In the meantime, David had taken my original demo, added an additional drum machine part and while keeping the form and big chunks of the original melody, added an additional vocal line on top of the “A” section to which he had written those haunting and evocative lyrics. To me his words make “This is Not America” one of the greatest protest songs ever.
Watching him do his vocal was something I will never forget. I can only say that it was masterful – kind of like the feeling I have had whenever I have had the chance to be around a great jazz musician who carried a one-of-a-kind type presence that filled every note that came out of them. He was really fast. He asked if any of us could sing (we couldn’t/can’t!), so he did all the background vocals himself, kind of transforming into what seemed to be two or three different people as he did each part.
Throughout the whole experience, he was kind, generous and contrary to so many aspects of his various public personas, very normal and straight-ahead. My main impression was that he was extremely professional about everything that he did, that he really wanted to do a great job with the tune and to get a great singing performance and track down as quickly and spontaneously as possible.
And it doesn’t surprise me at all that his last recording includes some of the best contemporary players in New York, especially the fantastic Donny McCaslin. During our time together he expressed a real appreciation and knowledge of this music and saxophone players in particular. He carried the kind of broad view of music and art that was inspiring to me as a collaborator and a fan. I feel very lucky to have had the chance to be around him.

[Ozoneranger]

Some thoughts…

So a greedy owner moved the team to St. Louis solely for money. And another greedy owner corrected that mistake, ironically, solely for money.

I feel bad for the STL fans…they supported a bad team well for a lot of years. This does not affect me personally, outside of many more 1PM start times, but this whole thing leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. But I can’t help thinking STL had a chance to keep the Rams for a measly $700 million renovation. Just as Anaheim had a chance to keep the Rams but reneged on a parking lot development deal. Fuck greedy owners and the inept politicians they roll.

Get ready, LA, for $60 parking and $15 dollar beers. I paid $50\$10 at Levi’s.

Given the demographics, great weather and competition from six other sports teams, not to mention two major college programs, it will be interesting to see how well LA supports this team, especially during down years. I remember the Rams had difficulty selling out (67%, I think it was) in Anaheim. And they were relatively successful on the field during those years.

I’m betting the Rams get at least three prime time games next season, not including London.

Sometimes the NFL gets it right- ethically. See Cleveland. So with the city of Oakland apathetic, to put it mildly, about accommodating the Raiders…Yeah, that’s nuts.

Nuts like that crazy dude Grits back in the day…Speaking of that giant, I emailed him this morning. I know he’s mocking us all now.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Ozoneranger.

[bnw]

“But I can’t help thinking STL had a chance to keep the Rams for a measly $700 million renovation.”

For the St. Louis metro area that is not a measly sum. The LA metro area with many times more population hasn’t offered up any money ever. Don’t forget that $700 million would have followed the $300 million St. Louis spent 21 years ago. St. Louis deserves better. I hope LA and the state tax the fuck out of Kroenke and the Rams. I want to see that stadium project run at least $1 billion over budget and 10 years over schedule. I want to see him fail financially.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

[Dak]

I hope the Raiders stay in Oakland. Fans there have been very supportive over the years. They belong there.

As for the dome renovation, not even the Rams thought that St. Louis would have accepted that deal. Local leaders mistakenly thought that there would be a dialogue to come that would lead to a deal that worked for both ownership and the public. Ha-ha-ha.

[Dak]

bnw wrote:

“But I can’t help thinking STL had a chance to keep the Rams for a measly $700 million renovation.”

For the St. Louis metro area that is not a measly sum. The LA metro area with many times more population hasn’t offered up any money ever. Don’t forget that $700 million would have followed the $300 million St. Louis spent 21 years ago. St. Louis deserves better. I hope LA and the state tax the fuck out of Kroenke and the Rams. I want to see that stadium project run at least $1 billion over budget and 10 years over schedule. I want to see him fail financially.

St. Louis is still spending I think like $8 million a year for the next 5 years on the Ed. And, the City is running at a deficit. Still, they offered public funding at the NFL’s request.

[snowman]

zn wrote:

Herzog wrote:

“This is not America……”

every time I see your name I think of this song….anyone know whY?

David Bowie.

Song from The Falcon and the Snowman.

From off the net:

===

DAVID BOWIE R.I.P. (from Pat)

https://www.facebook.com/PatMetheny/?fref=nf

Working with David Bowie on “This Is Not America” was an incredible experience. I had written the song as the main theme for the score for “The Falcon and the Snowman”. After traveling to Mexico City where the filming was taking place and watching Sean Penn and Timothy Hutton do a few scenes, I went back to my room and the whole piece came very quickly.
Later while in London recording the score, John Schlesinger, the director of the film, suggested a collaboration with David Bowie for a version of the song to go over the final credits. David came to a screening of the film and I sat near him as he saw the picture for the first time. He had a yellow legal pad on his lap and was writing constantly. At the end of the film, he had a list of maybe 30 (brilliant) song titles that he had thought of while watching. One of them was “This Is Not America”, a line from the film.
David took the music with him and a month later the core of my band and I traveled to Montreux, Switzerland to join him in his studio to record the single. In the meantime, David had taken my original demo, added an additional drum machine part and while keeping the form and big chunks of the original melody, added an additional vocal line on top of the “A” section to which he had written those haunting and evocative lyrics. To me his words make “This is Not America” one of the greatest protest songs ever.
Watching him do his vocal was something I will never forget. I can only say that it was masterful – kind of like the feeling I have had whenever I have had the chance to be around a great jazz musician who carried a one-of-a-kind type presence that filled every note that came out of them. He was really fast. He asked if any of us could sing (we couldn’t/can’t!), so he did all the background vocals himself, kind of transforming into what seemed to be two or three different people as he did each part.
Throughout the whole experience, he was kind, generous and contrary to so many aspects of his various public personas, very normal and straight-ahead. My main impression was that he was extremely professional about everything that he did, that he really wanted to do a great job with the tune and to get a great singing performance and track down as quickly and spontaneously as possible.
And it doesn’t surprise me at all that his last recording includes some of the best contemporary players in New York, especially the fantastic Donny McCaslin. During our time together he expressed a real appreciation and knowledge of this music and saxophone players in particular. He carried the kind of broad view of music and art that was inspiring to me as a collaborator and a fan. I feel very lucky to have had the chance to be around him.

Very cool!

[Dak]

A number of times I’ve found myself uttering: “Should’ve been Kroenke, not Bowie.”

[wv]

I haven’t paid much attention to the stadium
stuff cause I wanted to wait and see
which one got the green light.

This thing is…um…unique.

w
v

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by wv.

[InvaderRam]

it’s weird. i’m a st. louis fan. my second favorite team is the st. louis cardinals. but i don’t live there anymore. i watch my teams on television. the internet makes it so easy to follow them that i could live half way across the world, and i’d still be able to get as much information on them as i could possibly want. so wherever the rams might go in the future, i’ll still follow them and enjoy watching them play.

now if the cardinals left st. louis that’d be weird. i’d still follow them, but it’d seem wrong somehow. but the rams don’t seem like a st. louis team in the way that the cardinals and blues do, so it’s not that weird to me seeing them relocate. so whether they stay in st. louis, move to los angeles, or move to anchorage. it really doesn’t matter to me. i’ll always be a fan of the rams.

but i definitely root for the uniform. when pujols left to the angels, i stopped paying attention to him. i can barely bring myself to watch an angels game or even look at a box score. and now heyward has gone to chicago. and he is dead to me. being a sports fan can often be confusing. illogical. but i’ll keep watching as long as it’s fun.

[Hram]

Never lived in the Cleveland, Anaheim, LA or St. Louis. I am just a vagabond Rams fan who will cheer for them regardless of where they play.

My heart goes out to those of you like DAK who feel so sad on this day.

[bnw]

InvaderRam wrote:

but i definitely root for the uniform. when pujols left to the angels, i stopped paying attention to him. i can barely bring myself to watch an angels game or even look at a box score. and now heyward has gone to chicago. and he is dead to me. being a sports fan can often be confusing. illogical. but i’ll keep watching as long as it’s fun.

For myself it depends upon how a player leaves. Pooholes left claiming the Cardinals disrespected him by offering a $219 million contract. Haywired wanted a shorter fence in Wrigley and not to be relied upon as a veteran team leader. Good riddance to both.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

[zn]

Ozoneranger wrote:

t I can’t help thinking STL had a chance to keep the Rams for a measly $700 million renovation.

According to reporters, the figure “700 million” was never real…that number came up in Goodell’s report dismissing the St. Louis efforts, but the reporters say it was never the figure St. Louis was given to meet. According to reports, the owners never saw the St. Louis plans. Goodell just stated they were inadequate and that was the end of it.

Check this report out, for example.

[InvaderRam]

bnw wrote:

InvaderRam wrote:

but i definitely root for the uniform. when pujols left to the angels, i stopped paying attention to him. i can barely bring myself to watch an angels game or even look at a box score. and now heyward has gone to chicago. and he is dead to me. being a sports fan can often be confusing. illogical. but i’ll keep watching as long as it’s fun.

For myself it depends upon how a player leaves. Pooholes left claiming the Cardinals disrespected him by offering a $219 million contract. Haywired wanted a shorter fence in Wrigley and not to be relied upon as a veteran team leader. Good riddance to both.

yes. when warner left i didn’t blame him. and actually rooted for him. when bruce and holt left i understood. so circumstances play a part but i will always remain loyal to the uniform.

[Author]

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