Offensive line woes dragging down Rams

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December 13, 2014 at 11:02 am #13798

zn
Moderator

Offensive line woes dragging down Rams

AP

DEC 12, 2014

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/offensive-line-woes-dragging-down-rams-121214

ST. LOUIS (AP) — Finding a long-term quarterback solution will be an offseason priority for the St. Louis Rams considering Sam Bradford is rehabbing from a second straight season-ending left knee injury.

They might need help at less glitzy offensive positions, too.

The Rams (6-8) were held to 69 yards rushing on 20 carries, a 3.5-yard average, on Thursday night in a 12-6 home loss to the Arizona Cardinals.

They were 4 for 15 on third downs, had five three-and-outs in the third quarter with 6 yards total, and twice on fourth-and-1 deep in Arizona territory elected to play it safe with chip-shot field goals.

“Yeah, we had way too many three-and-outs and no first downs for a long time,” coach Jeff Fisher said Friday. “We went a quarter-and-a-half without a first down offensively, so that’s going to create problems for you field position-wise.”

Arizona coach Bruce Arians didn’t pass up a chance to rub it in after beating a team that hasn’t allowed a touchdown in three games.

It was the first time the Cardinals won on the road without a touchdown since 1935, according to STATS. They’re the only team in the NFL to win without a TD this season.

“I thought that our defensive line whipped their offensive line pretty solid,” Arians said. “When they were making tackles behind the line of scrimmage, there was usually an offensive lineman holding onto their legs but somehow those flags never got called.”

“But we were tackling them for losses, so it didn’t matter.”

Fisher was guilty of showmanship last week when he sent out players acquired in the Robert Griffin III deal for the coin toss at Washington. On Thursday, he had to take it from a coach who said after the game that Fisher’s teams are “always 8-8.”

“I told him that I hoped his quarterback was going to be OK,” Fisher said. “The last thing I said to him was, ‘Why don’t you go win a couple playoff games for the division, good luck.’

“That’s all I said to him. I have no comment on his comments.”

Fisher had another off-field issue to address. He met with tight end Jared Cook, who said after the game that the Rams had been “outplayed and outcoached.”

“We discussed it, and I think if he had to do it all over again, he wouldn’t have gone there from the ‘outcoached’ standpoint,” Fisher said. “It was kind of a one fell swoop, ‘Hey, we just got beat’ and included it all.”

Settling for Greg Zuerlein’s 19-yarder with just over six minutes remaining, after the Rams stalled at the 1, was probably a sound decision because it made it a one-score game. Benny Cunningham was stuffed for no gain on third-and-1 from the Arizona 7 in the first quarter.

Tackle Jake Long is out for the year with a knee injury. Left guard Rodger Saffold is at less than full strength with a nagging shoulder injury that will require surgery in the offseason. Center Scott Wells has been injury-prone and is wearing a brace covering his left arm, and right guard Davin Joseph, is a journeyman.

If Long hadn’t been hurt, rookie Greg Robinson could have stayed at right guard while adjusting to the NFL.

“We’ve got to get better at it. We need to be able to line up and say, ‘Here we come. This is what we’re running. Stop it,’” Fisher said. “We’re not there yet.”

St. Louis couldn’t muster enough offense to keep its late-season surge going with a third straight win, and is assured of an 11th straight season without a winning record. Winning the last two against the Giants next Sunday and at Seattle Dec. 28 would give the franchise its first .500 season since 2004.

“I’m not going to make any significant rosters moves, or play anybody here and there. We’re going to play this group throughout,” Fisher said.

“Pretty boring, actually.”

December 13, 2014 at 11:12 am #13799

HighPlainsDrifter
Participant

I have long believed that building an offensive line was essential to a successful offense. I think the absolute key to developing a strong offensive line is continuity, which is something the Rams have sorely lacked for a very long time. I don’t believe that you have to have Hall of Famers at every single position. You don’t have to have great offensive linemen to have a great offensive line. You have to draft wisely. They have to have an aptitude and determination for their craft. But they absolutely have to be together for an extended period of time. That’s what the Rams need to shoot for. That’s what will give them the best chance to succeed offensively.

December 13, 2014 at 11:13 am #13800

nittany ram
Moderator

It’s pretty evident from some of the post game quotes that Arians does not like Fisher.

These comments should make this divisional rivalry even more interesting going forward.

December 13, 2014 at 11:52 am #13803

zn
Moderator

HighPlainsDrifter wrote:

I have long believed that building an offensive line was essential to a successful offense. I think the absolute key to developing a strong offensive line is continuity,…. But they absolutely have to be together for an extended period of time. That’s what the Rams need to shoot for. That’s what will give them the best chance to succeed offensively.

Here’s the issue with continuity. The way we tend to think of OL continuity comes from the 70s and 80s and no longer exists.

Pasquerelli did some research on this and found that in the era of the cap and free agency, on average, every OL in the league changes 3.5 starters every 2 years. This is the article together with a previous discussion: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/old-article-era-of-ol-continuity-long-gone/

The only alternative is to put a huge percentage of your cap in the OL, which obviously causes problems elsewhere.

As a rule, across the years, a line can at best afford to sign 2-3 guys longterm.

This btw is one of the reasons that Boudreau emphasizes flexibility. Either way the better OLs find ways to handle the continuity issue. For example, the ARZ OL is not the same one as last year. Last year it was:

Sowell Colledge Sendlein Fanaika Winston

This year it is:

Veldheer Larsen Sendlein Fanaika Massie

Anyway. Yeah I think it’s pretty clear the Rams have to toughen up the middle. That will probably mean replacing both Wells and Joseph, and making sure Saffold comes back from his surgery.

Right now things seem worse because they are compensating for a rookie LOT. For example, I think it’s clear they were better off on the right side with Saffold next to Barksdale, but they can’t do that with the current group–for now Saffold has to stay on the left.

December 13, 2014 at 1:23 pm #13804

sdram
Participant

Replacing Wells this coming offseason seems like a no-brainer – in fact, if they sign anybody from outside the Rams org this offseason – I’d like to see a C and\or G or C/G first and foremost – after that a QB to compete with Sam B and Shawn Hill would be nice as would a WR to replace or complement Britt depending on what he does. I would guess, that the wise old owl would say Who they draft will depend on who they sign, who they like, and who steps up between now and next September. If Aaron Donald’s clone is available to them with ol being a bigger priority, then do that again.

December 13, 2014 at 3:02 pm #13810

wv
Participant

“I thought that our defensive line whipped their offensive line pretty solid,” Arians said. “When they were making tackles behind the line of scrimmage, there was usually an offensive lineman holding onto their legs but somehow those flags never got called.”
“But we were tackling them for losses, so it didn’t matter.”

LoL. This amuses me.

This Division has some real characters
in the coaching ranks.

I just cant work up any antipathy for Arians
yet. As far as a villain goes, he’s
no Harbaugh in my book. Not yet, anyway.

I will probly root for the Cards in the playoffs,
i guess.

w
v

December 13, 2014 at 9:14 pm #13821

zn
Moderator

from around the net

—

aeneas1

the rams entered their home against the cards on a sack/pressure roll, having sacked opposing qbs a whopping 29 times in their previous 6 games while pressuring them close to 40% of the time (avg) in 4 of their last 6 outings. but against the cards thursday night the rams d came up with only 1 sack and pressured team stanton/lindley on just 28% of their dropbacks.

in fact how has arizona’s offensive line been able to do such a good job protecting their qbs from sacks all year? through thursday night’s game the cardinals rank 9th in sacks allowed per pass attempt, not too shabby at all, especially considering who is manning their offensive line:

left tackle: veldheer, a 3rd rounder, free agent pickup in the offseason (raiders), no previous experience with the cards offense, 48 nfl starts prior to the 2014 season.

left guard: larsen, a 6th rounder, free agent pickup in the offseason (bucs), no previous experience with the cards offense, 31 nfl starts prior to the 2014 season.

center: sendlein: an undrafted guy who has manned the cards center position for the last 6 years.

right guard: fanaika, a 7th rounder, free agent pickup in 2013 (seahawks), 1 year experience with the cards offense, 16 nfl starts prior to the 2014 season.

right tackle: massie, a 4th rounder, started all 16 games his rookie season (2012), benched in 2013, didn’t start any games, now the right tackle starter again, 16 nfl starts prior to the 2014 season.

other: cooper, a 1st rounder, ir’d entire 2013 rookie season, is a backup this season.

December 13, 2014 at 10:33 pm #13822

InvaderRam
Moderator

they need two new starters assuming barksdale is back. that and they need a qb. those are really the main problems for this team as far as i can see. and depth of course. you could always use more depth.

they should be able to take care of the offensive line. i don’t see that as being a huge problem. they should get that fixed through free agency and the draft.

qb is what i worry about. no real clear answer there.

December 14, 2014 at 12:40 am #13824

Eternal Ramnation
Participant

wv wrote:

“I thought that our defensive line whipped their offensive line pretty solid,” Arians said. “When they were making tackles behind the line of scrimmage, there was usually an offensive lineman holding onto their legs but somehow those flags never got called.”
“But we were tackling them for losses, so it didn’t matter.”

w
v

The guy’s an asshole. The Cards were holding Donald and Quinn throughout the game.Arians has got so many calls his way especially in AZ. How many late hits did Hill take ? Most were blows to the head and a least one at the knees well after the throw.He has nothing to complain about, the Refs have been the Cards MVP’s this season. Reminds me of the Cowboy fans.

December 14, 2014 at 1:13 am #13825

Zooey
Moderator

wv wrote:

LoL. This amuses me.

This Division has some real characters
in the coaching ranks.

I just cant work up any antipathy for Arians
yet. As far as a villain goes, he’s
no Harbaugh in my book. Not yet, anyway.

I will probly root for the Cards in the playoffs,
i guess.

w
v

Yeah, what I’ve found has not seemed more than minor blustering. Though from a guy who hasn’t actually won anything yet himself, calling the Rams out for sustained mediocrity was slightly arrogant. It isn’t anything much – nothing to get riled about – but it does make a nice foundation to build on later if these teams don’t botch that opportunity.

December 14, 2014 at 1:34 am #13826

snowman
Participant

wv wrote:

“I thought that our defensive line whipped their offensive line pretty solid,” Arians said. “When they were making tackles behind the line of scrimmage, there was usually an offensive lineman holding onto their legs but somehow those flags never got called.”
“But we were tackling them for losses, so it didn’t matter.”

LoL. This amuses me.

This Division has some real characters
in the coaching ranks.

I just cant work up any antipathy for Arians
yet. As far as a villain goes, he’s
no Harbaugh in my book. Not yet, anyway.

I will probly root for the Cards in the playoffs,
i guess.

w
v

Pretty bold talk for a guy wearing a beret.

December 14, 2014 at 9:56 am #13830

Dak
Participant

Arizona has won what, exactly?

December 17, 2014 at 3:09 am #14045

zn
Moderator

You know I looked up the top 12 guards as rated by PFF.

Interesting…there’s only 3 1st rounders in the bunch (Zeitler, Long, Martin).

Also.

The Rams showed more than usual interest the last 2 drafts in a couple of guards. In 2013 it was Larry Warford. He would have been the pick if Ogletree weren’t there. And of course in 2014, they were on the verge of trading up for Zack Martin but Dallas took him first. That’s good news because both are very good guards. That tells me Rams have a good eye for the premium guards.

The discount ones? Not so much…..

December 17, 2014 at 8:57 am #14048
wv
Participant
So the Oline next year is..what?

LT – Greg Robinson
G – ?
C – ?
G – R Saffold
RT – ?

I dunno if Barksdale is coming back
or if they should even want him back.
He hasn’t been all that impressive
in the second half of the year.

Who are the Free Agents this year
on the OLine?
w
v
- This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by wv.
December 17, 2014 at 9:09 am #14050
wv
Participant
…and is Barrett Jones a starter or
a bust ?

w
v
———————————–
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/football/professional/jones-hoping-for-brighter-days-ahead-with-rams/article_6b75335c-fde7-54c4-a19f-fba46a35d736.html

See link….“So that was frustrating,” Jones said. “I feel like I lost some ground there. I’m definitely starting to get it back; starting to get close to feeling like I was.”

When the regular season ends in 12 days, Jones will return to his hometown in Memphis and attack the offseason with his personal trainer.

“Hopefully I can have that same kind of offseason and training camp next year where I can be noticed as a player that’s really improved,” he said. “Hopefully that’s the case, and hopefully I can start next year. That’s my goal.

“This is obviously a huge offseason for me. This is a big kind of defining moment. So I’m gonna just really tear it up this offseason. Work extremely hard. And just kinda make it a goal to just get better in every area. Get stronger. Get faster. Get my body back to where it needs to be.”

Exactly where that potential starting position is on the offensive line remains a mystery. Remember, Jones started two years at right guard, one year at left tackle, and one year at center at Alabama….

see link
========================
- This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by wv.
December 17, 2014 at 10:04 am #14053

zn
Moderator

wv wrote:

I dunno if Barksdale is coming back
or if they should even want him back.
He hasn’t been all that impressive
in the second half of the year.

I think Barksdale will be back. I think he’s better playing next to Saffold. I also think that he could work on technique issues in the off-season. I ALSO think starting ROTs are not that hard to find and they could add someone behind him in any number of ways.

Replacing 3 linemen in one year? A lot to ask. But it’s G, C, and ROT, which are not big challenges. I looked up PFF rankings on OGs, for example, and 75% of their top 12 are NOT 1st round picks.

In their line-building histories, both Boudreau and Fisher have been in situations where they turned OLs around in one year. Though…they ain’t gonna do it with 3 rookies. I think they would rather eat their own fingers than start 3 rookie linemen.

December 17, 2014 at 10:31 am #14055

wv
Participant

zn wrote:

wv wrote:
I dunno if Barksdale is coming back
or if they should even want him back.
He hasn’t been all that impressive
in the second half of the year.

I think Barksdale will be back. I think he’s better playing next to Saffold. I also think that he could work on technique issues in the off-season. I ALSO think starting ROTs are not that hard to find and they could add someone behind him in any number of ways.

Replacing 3 linemen in one year? A lot to ask. But it’s G, C, and ROT, which are not big challenges. I looked up PFF rankings on OGs, for example, and 75% of their top 12 are NOT 1st round picks.

In their line-building histories, both Boudreau and Fisher have been in situations where they turned OLs around in one year. Though…they ain’t gonna do it with 3 rookies. I think they would rather eat their own fingers than start 3 rookie linemen.

Yeah, the OLine problems are fixable in
one offseason. A good personnel/coaching team
with cap-space, “ought” to be able to fix
this OLine.

That only leaves that…um…one other
little problem.

w
v

December 17, 2014 at 10:34 am #14056

zn
Moderator

wv wrote:

A good personnel/coaching team
with cap-space, “ought” to be able to fix
this OLine.

That only leaves that…um…one other
little problem.

w
v

Yeah. I know.

Is Mason the guy?

Maybe they need a 2nd round RB this time.

December 17, 2014 at 10:40 am #14058

wv
Participant

zn wrote:

>wv wrote:
A good personnel/coaching team
with cap-space, “ought” to be able to fix
this OLine.

That only leaves that…um…one other
little problem.

w
v

Yeah. I know.

Is Mason the guy?

Maybe they need a 2nd round RB this time.

I pree-dict, Mason fumbles in the Seattle
game.
I think good defenses are gonna
separate Tre from the ball.

w
v

December 17, 2014 at 11:31 pm #14102

zn
Moderator

Fisher revealed that Wells takes a day of practice off once a week. He’s banged up. Same with Joseph. Takes a day off a week–banged up. Saffold is playing hurt, and GR is a rookie.

Doesn’t sound like the kind of group you want going against a tough and physical division foe on a short week.

December 17, 2014 at 11:45 pm #14106

Agamemnon
Participant

I don’t think it helps anybody to start Wells and Joseph. imo

Agamemnon

December 17, 2014 at 11:55 pm #14108

zn
Moderator

Agamemnon wrote:

I don’t think it helps anybody to start Wells and Joseph. imo

I think ARz game was far worse than usual and that they won’t be that bad this week.

Against Seattle, I make no promises.

December 18, 2014 at 9:01 am #14141

zn
Moderator

On Jones. Picking up on something I was saying. It;s all IMO. –>

I think there’s a complete misunderstanding about what is going on with Jones. Some think he has been moved to tackle. I think that’s just convenient hole-plugging in the background, because according to his own view of it, he’s not in shape to play. So they make use of a body where they need one on the scout team.

So to me, he is filling in at tackle on the scout team, which means they have pretty much relegated him to the bottom rung and are just making use of him there, so other guys like Person can get in practice with the real squad.

This year is lost for him, because the back surgery means he lost the weight and strength he had gained.

From JT:

The injury and resulting surgery “definitely set me back a lot,” Jones said. He couldn’t do any weight training for a couple of months following the surgery, so he lost some of the weight and strength he had worked hard to add over the offseason.

I take all this as meaning he is just filling a hole at RT for now, considering that he is pretty much otherwise useless until he gets a solid off-season. One that is not subtracted by a new injury. That is, he wasn’t movef to RT in the sense that he can develop there, he was just a body that wasn’t physically up to playing so they figure, what the hell we could use someone to practice at tackle for the scout team. He filled a hole in the meanwhile. That way he’s not completely useless to them.

but for much of the second half of this season he has been working out at right tackle with the second-team offense and the scout team.

December 18, 2014 at 10:50 am #14157

Agamemnon
Participant

I think it is just cause they have more injuries and who else is there? But, he might be able to do it. imo

Agamemnon

December 18, 2014 at 11:11 am #14159

zn
Moderator

Agamemnon wrote:

I think it is just cause they have more injuries and who else is there? But, he might be able to do it.

Maybe. I think his future is center. He just has to prove he can stayed healthy and bulked up.

December 18, 2014 at 12:15 pm #14160

Agamemnon
Participant

zn wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Agamemnon wrote:</div>
I think it is just cause they have more injuries and who else is there? But, he might be able to do it.

Maybe. I think his future is center. He just has to prove he can stayed healthy and bulked up.

Yeah, I want him at center, mainly for his intelligence not his physical powers.

Agamemnon
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