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    Do you buy the argument by some in the media that a team picking a QB at number one – nevermind a team that traded a lot to get there- will be starting the rookie QB week one?

    Cause, 16 games with a rookie QB, looks like
    about 8 and 8 to me.

    With this schedule, plus games in Helsinki and Instanbul, starting a rookie qb from week 1 would be deadly.

    Avatar photozn
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    Anyway, over the coming weeks and months I may need people to reassure me lots and tell me that everything is going to be ok.

    If it’s Goff consider the general territory of his skills–in different degrees and ways, it includes players like Ryan and Bulger to people like Warner, Manning, Brady, and Montana.

    Not predicting how well he will play, just setting up a rough category for a physical/style type of qb.

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    a gurley goff backfield has the potential to be special. i like the idea of them growing together as a duo.

    even without pro bowl receivers, the offense should be in good shape with those two.

    can’t think of many backfields with that much potential and youth on their side. tampa bay and oakland come to mind. the seahawks had a great duo in wilson and lynch. wide receivers didn’t have to be great with that backfield. greg robinson better be excited about blocking for those two. young offensive line jelling at the right time?

    of course this is all just potential at this point cuz we don’t know how good goff is. and only an inkling of how good gurley can be.

    i know people are going to disagree strongly with me. but that backfield is also very marketable in a city where you need a main attraction. not saying this is THE reason they did it, but it sure is a great side benefit to have.

    A lot of people are making the switch to Goff.

    I am still in “would be fine with either one” land.

    Avatar photozn
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    Bottom line….fucking rookie QB that’s gonna be groomed by Case Keenum or maybe Nick Foles,,,, Holy Shit….

    Well, actually, being groomed by Keenum is not a bad thing. He is reportedly a dedicated film-junkie and self-maximizer. He thinks of himself as having to create advantages through study and dedication.

    in reply to: qbs in the draft: Goff & Wentz #42295
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    even MORE follow-up

    ==

    jrry32

    I’ve spent months watching the QBs in this draft to try and determine who the Rams should draft after seeing our struggles this year.

    For those who have only seen the highlights and read the scouting reports or heard from the talking head, I hope this is useful for you. I’m going to break down the strengths and weaknesses of each passer, compare them to a few NFL passers, and explain my preference for Goff over Wentz. For those of you who question where my report comes from, I watched between 12 and 20 games for each of Goff and Wentz which includes games from past years. Here are my reports on each:

    Goff

    Strengths:

    Great accuracy and touch on passes to all levels of the field. Will hit the strike zone consistently. Can drop the ball in the bucket on deep passes. Puts the ball in the correct spot for YAC. Doesn’t throw with more velocity than is needed. Consistently throws the ball in a way to protect his WRs when possible.

    Outstanding pocket presence, movement, and poise under pressure. He’s truly Luck caliber in his ability to maneuver the pocket, buy time, and find or create throwing lanes as a college passer. He has active, quick feet which allow him to set and reset quickly when moving and get the ball out in an instant. Dealt with a lot of pressure due to having a poor performing OL and constantly threw with defenders in his face or after he was forced off his spot.

    Top tier mental processing speed through his progressions and reads. Quick-minded player who can move through full-field reads with speed. Consistently can get to his 3rd or 4th progression when needed even when under fire. Rarely locks onto WRs. He also throws with great anticipation. He understands how to throw a WR open and how throws should be timed.
    Tough SOB. He took a beating throughout his career at Cal due to his OL and due to the team’s lack of success. His defense was consistently one of the worst in the NCAA and forced Goff into shootouts. They went 1-11 his freshman year and 5-7 his sophomore year. Goff kept it together, never got discouraged, and helped Cal go 8-5 in his junior year. Some will blame Goff for his team not winning more but Cal’s offense actually ranked 11th in points per game with 38.2 points per game scored his sophomore year…the problem was that their defense gave up 39.8 points per game. His junior year, the offense performed similarly with 37.8 points per game ranking 17th in the NCAA but the defense improved to allowing only 30.7 points per game which accounted for the team winning 8 games instead of 5. For those who knock Goff for not winning more, I have to wonder how a QB can compensate for a defense that allows nearly 40 points per game. Even Drew Brees has struggled to get New Orleans over the hump when their defense is among the worst in the NFL.

    Excellent intangibles. I have heard nothing but good things about Goff’s work ethic, film habits, personality, leadership, and character. He’s not an outgoing and outwardly confident at Wentz but Goff is the type of kid who is the first in and the last out by all reports and is popular among teammates. Goff was also responsible for running his offense at the LOS and received more responsibility at the LOS from his OC than any other QB who played under him.

    Checks all the physical boxes. Goff is 6’4″ 215 with solid mobility, awesomely quick feet, and an above average arm. His hands are meet the minimum criteria in terms of size. And he’s never missed a start due to an injury although he did suffer a separated shoulder in the last game of his freshman year at Cal.

    Great decision-maker. Goff is a lot like Peyton Manning in how you’d classify him. He’s not a true gunslinger or a true game manager. He mixes elements of both but leans a tad more towards the gunslinger side of the coin. He’s never shied away from testing tight coverage, he will take shots down the field, and he has a tremendous amount of confidence in his ability to fit throws into tight windows.

    Quick, natural release. Goff gets the ball out quickly and efficiently.

    Weaknesses:

    Goff has a skinny frame and his hands are smaller than you’d like. He had some issues with fumbles during his career although it did seem to improve in his final year at Cal. There are some concerns that his frame will lead to durability issues in the NFL. It’s possible.

    Goff will occasionally short-arm passes that he rushes which leads to inaccuracy. He also has some stretches of inconsistency when teams are able to throw him off his rhythm. He’s definitely a rhythm passer. When he’s on, he’s lethal but he does have some stretches in games where he’s off.

    Goff’s arm is above average but it isn’t elite. He won’t be able to make some of the intermediate to deep sideline throws with zip at the NFL level against tight coverage. But there’s a possibility that his arm strength will increase as he adds weight and physically matures.

    Goff can be fooled by underneath zone defenders at times which has led to interceptions. Will also force some passes knowing there is a risk of interception. Washington State got him once using a Cover-2 Trap. Goff went after the trap a few others times in the game and got away with it. He’s definitely a guy who will take some risks.

    Hasn’t had many big moments in his career. Cal hasn’t been a contender and Goff hasn’t had to make many drives in big, close games. He did it this year against Arizona State but it wasn’t a game on a big stage.
    Goff played in an Air Raid variant so taking drops under center and learning a NFL playbook and NFL verbiage will be new to him.

    Overall:

    Frankly, Goff doesn’t have a lot of true weaknesses. He has some attributes that aren’t strengths but they’re more neutral than weaknesses. He’s a polished passer who is extremely adept mentally and a great pure thrower. I’ve been smitten with him for over a year. Some will say that he resembles Bradford. And he does. He looks like college Bradford. Skinny kid who is a great pure thrower. But he’s so much more advanced in the pocket than Bradford was. I hate to throw around this comparison but he really reminds me of Peyton Manning. Manning is the best QB I’ve seen play the game and one of my favorite players of all time so I don’t throw that comparison around lightly. But he has feet, instincts, and movement in the pocket that are like Manning. And his coach even discusses how Goff studied Manning’s feet and mannerisms in the pocket. What I see in Goff is a guy who I think will realistically pan out like Philip Rivers.(I can’t say he’ll pan out like Manning…it’s just not fair to any player to expect that) He’s not a dead-on comparison for Rivers as they have different body types, throwing motions, and demeanors. However, like Rivers, Goff has great movement and feel in the pocket, he is highly effective throwing vertically despite not possessing an elite arm, and he’s a highly intelligent guy with a great feel for the game. I was reading an article where Goff was describing his thought process on a series of plays. He explained how he recognized that Stanford was playing a Cover-2, anticipated that their CB would not abandon his assignment to jump the underneath route because of his inexperience, and then showed a video of him making a perfect throw into the window created by the Stanford CB carrying the outside WR up the field rather than abandoning the assignment to jump the route the slot WR ran. Then Goff explained that the next time they ran that play in the same game, he expected the CB to not play the outside WR quite as tightly due to being burned once. Due to this, Goff threw the same route but released the ball a tick earlier and threw it to his WR’s back hip to keep the CB from being able to jump the route, and then they showed the video of the throw being put on his WR’s back hip a split second sooner and the CB trying to jump the route but failing because the ball was on the other side of the WR. What’s my point here? Goff combines all the things you look for in a great QB into one skill-set. He’s highly intelligent, he’s deadly accurate, he has outstanding work habits, and he has amazing instincts in the pocket. I think he’s a #1 overall caliber player and if we draft him, we’ll win at least one Super Bowl with him as a our QB. You can bookmark this thread if you think that comment is too “optimistic.”

    Wentz

    Strengths:

    Wentz is the most physically talented passer since Cam Newton and Colin Kaepernick. We’re talking about a 6’5″ 235 pound QB with good mobility and a rifle for an arm. The day he steps onto the NFL field, he’ll have one of the strongest arms in the NFL. This is a kid who can make any throw you ask him to. There is no throw off limits in an offense. You want a 15 yard out route from the opposite hash? He’ll make the throw. You want a 60 yard hail mary bomb? He’ll make the throw. He’s got an unreal arm. We’re talking Kaepernick, Newton, Cutler, Rodgers tier arm here.

    Wentz is a very accurate passer with the potential to be even more accurate in the future. He will make a lot of throws that make your jaw-drop because of his arm strength/accuracy combination. I saw him make throws to intermediate comebacks where the CB was blanketing the WR. I saw him make a throw down the seam that dropped perfectly between 3 defenders to his WR. And despite his arm strength, the touch is there. He’ll put some mustard on shorter throws when the window is tight but he knows when to take something off the ball. And he needs to make a tough throw, he will. People have a far more negative impression of his deep ball than they should because he throws it with such good touch. He has slow WRs so he airs the ball out to allow them to adjust to it and make plays rather than trying to throw lasers that they won’t be able to run under. People think that his deep ball will hang at times but it’s by design. I’ve seen him throw passes 55 yards in the air on a line.

    Wentz’s instincts in the pocket are good. He feels pressure, he reacts, and he does his best to escape pressure. Wentz doesn’t drop his eyes. He doesn’t get happy feet. He doesn’t fear being hit. He has a good feel for pressure and knows when to get rid of the ball. He has great poise and composure in the pocket.

    Wentz is a great runner who is a legitimate threat to take off and pick up big chunks of yardage if the defense doesn’t respect his legs. He isn’t Kaepernick or RGIII fast but he has good vision, good agility, and is fearless (too much so, frankly).

    Wentz is an outstanding decision-maker who rarely forces balls into coverage. He will not hesitate to take risks or take shots down the field but he’s not a guy who takes unjustifiable risks. And when he does take risks, he generally puts the ball in a spot where only his guy will make a play.

    Wentz’s intelligence and intangibles are top notch. People have been raving about his work habits, leadership, intelligence, and character. He’s the type of guy that NFL evaluators dream of at QB. He’s a good ole boy who speaks with confidence, commands respect, studies hard in the classroom and the film room, and behaves himself off the field. Type of kid who is the first one in the building and the last to leave. And I’ve heard rumors that he has an insanely good memory and ability to retain information.

    Wentz played in a pro style run-first system that has a lot of similarities to the offense that the Rams currently run. He used verbiage similar to the verbiage used in the pros. He’s a very pro ready player mentally and was responsible for running his pro style offense at the LOS (this included calling protections). Wentz made full-field reads, went through progressions with speed, and threw NFL routes.

    Wentz played in plenty of big moments and made a number of big time plays and big time drives in those games. There’s no question of whether he can handle pressure or “clutch” situations. This is a kid who led a come from behind game winning drive with less than 2 minutes left down 4 in the FCS National Championship game during his first year as a starter. In the big moments, Wentz will step up.

    Weaknesses:

    Wentz’s lower body mechanics need a lot of refinement. Like Jameis Winston, he plays with too wide of a throwing base which constantly forces him to set and reset when he’s forced off his spot and wastes precious time before he throws trying to get himself in a proper base. Wentz also is very inconsistent with his pocket movement. He flashes it from time to time but allows his feet to die too often in the pocket. He’s got to keep his feet active and keep moving or he’ll be a sitting duck in the NFL. He received consistent protection at NDSU from a talented OL so he was able to get away with picking a spot and staying there a lot of the time. Wentz’s feet are also not as agile and light as Goff’s.

    Wentz needs to be more deceptive with his eyes. He locks onto WRs at times and can get tunnel vision. He’s definitely behind Goff in this category as Goff does a great job of moving defenders with his eyes and keeping from locking onto targets. Wentz got away with it in college because he has such a cannon for an arm but he needs to be more consistent using his eyes to move defenders or NFL defenders will pick on him as a rookie.

    Wentz needs to do a better job of protecting the ball when he runs and protecting himself. He took a lot of unnecessary hits at NDSU and ended up breaking his wrist due to that. He also fumbled quite a bit when he took off and ran. We can’t have either of those things in the NFL because both are easily preventable.

    Wentz doesn’t move as quickly and seamlessly through his progressions as Goff does. He’ll lock onto WRs from time to time and be late to his second or third progression. But this is understandable as he has a lot less starting experience.

    Wentz played at the FCS level so he didn’t perform against anywhere near the level of athletes he’ll be facing at the NFL. That all said, he still threw against plenty of tight windows due to how unathletic his WRs were.

    Overall:

    Wentz has bigger questions and is less polished than Goff. He’s got some mechanical issues in his lower body that he’ll have to work through although he did show significant improvement during the Senior Bowl and pre-draft process as a whole. However, Wentz is incredibly physically gifted and has all the requisite attributes needed to be great. He has the instincts and mental acuity. I don’t see anything lacking in his skill-set aside from the correctable issues that I discussed above. He does have some similarities to Bradford in that he’s not as fleet-footed as Goff in the pocket and didn’t have to develop great pocket movement in college due to his protection but I think he has a better feel for pressure than Bradford did coming out and is more poised under pressure. Wentz’s ceiling is sky high and he’s a great fit for a run first offense. Especially one that wants to throw vertically. Wentz needs to protect himself in the NFL in order to stay healthy. Some people compare him to Big Ben but I don’t really see the same game there. Ben is such a strong guy and unwilling to go down. Wentz doesn’t have the same strength and tackle-breaking ability in the pocket.

    Personally, I think he’s more like a young Carson Palmer. People may scoff at that who don’t remember Palmer when he was younger before the catastrophic knee injury but Palmer actually ran a 4.65 40 coming out of college. My personal opinion is that, despite Wentz’s athleticism, he shouldn’t be used as a runner in the NFL. Like Palmer, he has the ability to be a great pocket passer. Develop him as a passer and protect him from injuries. If he has a seam, he can certainly run. Just make sure he knows to get down and protect himself. Wentz has some similarities to Bortles although I think he’s more mentally polished than Bortles was. Ultimately though, I think he has Favre-caliber throwing ability. He doesn’t have the gunslinger mindset that Favre has but he has that caliber of an arm and movement skills. I fully expect Wentz to be a top 10 QB in the NFL once he develops. One thing I loved reading about Wentz was the breakdown of the game winning TD he threw against Northern Iowa. In Wentz’s first year as a starter, Northern Iowa kicked NDSU’s ass. You knew Wentz wanted to get revenge. Northern Iowa got after Wentz and hit him a lot in that game. Wentz threw his first two INTs of the season in that game because their defense was playing so well. One of them was simply a bad decision under pressure. Down 4 with less than 2 minutes, Wentz drove NDSU almost 80 yards. On his final play, Wentz recognized that the defense was in Cover-1 man and recognized the blitz they were bringing so he changed the protection and audibled the play to take advantage of the match-up of his slot WR on the LB. Wentz threw a slot fade that the FS in Cover-1 couldn’t get to and the LB covering the slot WR wasn’t in position to defend for the game winning TD. It was equally impressive that he recognized the coverage early enough to change the concept and the blitz to change the protection as well as him also having the confidence to change the play and the protection in that sort of situation (45 seconds left in the game down by 4 just inside the red-zone). I think Wentz is every bit worth being the #2 pick and I expect whoever takes him will end up being very happy with him.

    ..

    Those are my thoughts and I think the Rams have a win-win decision on their hands.

    I slightly prefer Goff over Wentz. But both guys will be franchise QBs in the NFL. I do think Goff is the more polished player and the less risky choice. Despite the offense he played in, he’s a very developed QB who is ready to step in and make an immediate impact…and he’s not lacking for upside either.

    No matter what happens on April 28th, this team has a bright future with Goff or Wentz at the helm.. I think both Goff and Wentz are the right choices. It’s a win-win and we can’t go wrong. I prefer Goff. But a person isn’t wrong to prefer Wentz. They simply value certain attributes differently than I do.

    In terms of the Rams offense, I happen to think that our WRs/TEs will look a whole lot better with a QB who can throw the ball accurately and on time. Especially Britt and Austin. Britt will never be Calvin Johnson but he’s a legitimate vertical threat. With better QB play the past couple years, I think he has at least one 1000 yard season. And we have no idea what Austin can or will be. His route running seemed to improve a lot last year but our QBs just couldn’t get him the ball.

    Will our WR/TE corps be great? No. But they don’t have to be. We’re run a first offense. We just need a guy at QB who can make the throws that are there and help us sustain drive. We don’t need a lot out of our rookie passer.

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    jrry32

    I like Wentz a lot but I prefer Goff. I think Goff will be a great QB. IMO, he has Peyton Manning like potential and I don’t take a statement like that lightly. Peyton Manning is the best QB I’ve ever seen play. Regardless, if they pick Wentz, I’ll be happy. If they pick Goff, I’ll be elated. It’s a decision they can’t mess up unless they don’t pick either.

    some follow-up

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    jrry32

    I’ve seen people throwing unfair and inaccurate criticisms at Wentz. Both guys are talented. Both guys have the ability to be great in the NFL. Both guys will be outstanding picks at #1.

    Wentz is a plenty accurate QB. And while Goff’s release is quicker, it’s not enough of a difference for me. I do prefer Goff because Goff is more polished but if Wentz is the pick, people will end up being very happy with the pick. Wentz has a ton of upside and is already a very talented QB. There’s a whole hell of a lot of film of Wentz throwing into tight windows and making NFL throws/reads. Wentz had better numbers in the red-zone in 2015. That is what matters more than anything.

    Wentz will not be a runner at the NFL level. Like Blake Bortles or Andrew Luck, he’ll be a threat to pick-up yardage with his legs if he gets outside the pocket or gets a seam. But you’re not drafting him to run. You’re drafting him to be a pocket passer. And there’s more than enough film out there that shows he has that ability. He has some mechanical flaws in the lower body similar to the ones Blake Bortles and Jameis Winston had coming out. They’ve improved during the pre-draft process but he’ll need to continue to progress. And yes, he’ll have to work on his pocket movement and footwork.

    That all said, these are things that can be developed and are often developed. Wentz has a lot of things that can’t be taught along with a very rare athletic skill-set.(6’5″ 237 with mobility and a rifle for an arm) Wentz has the mental acuity, accuracy, and instincts need to be great. He’s not as polished as Goff but given time, that’ll come.

    And one thing people seem to constantly ignore is that Wentz wasn’t playing FCS talent on Oregon. Wentz was playing FCS talent on a FCS team. He had FCS linemen, he had FCS receivers, and he had FCS backs. He didn’t get bigger windows or worse coverage because of the level of competition. Because his WRs weren’t good.

    It’s like some people expect Wentz to be putting up unheard of numbers to compensate for the lower level of competition. But he’s in a pro style run first system with FCS caliber players around him. It’s simply not realistic. If he’s facing just as tight of windows as guys like Goff and Lynch (and he did) and making just as tough of reads (and he did) then there’s no true advantage.

    Is it worth considering that he played at the FCS? Yes. But only to the point that you actively look for the sort of plays that translate to the NFL. And there are plenty of those in his film.

    It’s also worth mentioning that it’s ridiculously hard to get picked in the first round as a FCS QB. Teams tend to be skeptical of FCS players and it’s hard to find guys with the caliber of talent who standout enough in the FCS to go that highly. Basically, you have to be VERY SPECIAL to be drafted in the first round as a FCS QB. There have only been two guys drafted in the first round at QB from FCS programs since 1990…Steve McNair and Joe Flacco. I’d say that sort of history bodes well for Wentz.

    Whether it’s Wentz or Goff on draft day, I’ll be happy.

    in reply to: well at this point, 11 days away #42291
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    Whoever they pick, you can be sure of one thing. No one on earth, including the Mel Kipers, the Daniel Jerimias, the Todd McShays, or any other entity will have invested more time and resources into this decision than the Rams. We are talking thousands of man-hours on this decision alone. This does not in any way guaranty that they make the right choice, but anyone who immediately claims that they blew it should at least concede that their opinion is based on far less information than the Rams had when they made the choice, including running both through the same workouts, asking them both the same questions in the meeting rooms, watching and dissecting every throw both of them have ever made in competition, and determining not which guy is the best passer or the best athlete, but which QB in the Rams’s system gives the Rams the best chance for a championship in the future.

    Isiah 58

    I think that’s a very important point.

    But then I also think it’s an important point because (like you) I don’t think they’re choosing between success and failure…I think they have a choice between 2 good qbs.

    The nuances and analysis just gets down to which one they prefer to be a Ram for the next 10-15 years.

    There’s a good chance they will go 1-2 in the draft, and I think that both are going to make it as regular starting NFL qbs.

    The decision the Rams have to make is, sure, yeah, okay, both are going to be good, but…which one is the most best for us?

    in reply to: Polian on Goff n Wentz #42290
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    from off the net

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    Merlin

    Goff or Wentz at #1? Just heard Polian answer the question on Sirius in impressive fashion. Paraphrasing here:

    * Choosing between them is whether you like vanilla or strawberry. Just realized… Did Bill make a joke there? :p

    Goff (Vanilla)
    * Enough arm. Extremely accurate.
    * Good athlete. Bill thought he ran faster than Wentz. Comfortable and good at moving in pocket.
    * Great feet. Faced a lot of pressure and his feet would suffer at times.
    * Skinny build for the NFL, and he discussed his metabolism issue and whether it changes things.
    * Thinks he needs a year to adjust to NFL.
    * Has some issues on crossing routes, but likely due to pressure. Some deep throw accuracy issues.

    Wentz (Strawberry)
    * Big arm. Went on about how ball leaps from his hand.
    * Good athlete. Mentioned what bothers me too: Wentz’s gung-ho running style which isn’t good for NFL.
    * Prototypical build. Then discussed level of competition and why he did not see it as a problem due to previous success of drafted prospects and his performance in the Senior Bowl.
    * Thinks he needs a year to adjust to NFL.
    * Mentioned Wentz’s intelligence/getting a 40+ or whatever on the wonderlic.
    * Has deep throw accuracy issues, but likely due to him throwing to guys who aren’t fast enough.

    * He did not mention hand size for Goff, so don’t think he views it as even remotely a concern.
    * He did not mention injury for Wentz, so don’t think he views it as a concern.
    * He mentioned that the reasons QBs fail are usually (1) Intelligence, (2) Inability to recall and quickly process, and (3) Lack of dedication to their craft. Went on to say those things are NOT concerns with either of these QBs, so I took it to mean both are relatively safe picks and I concur.

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    An opinion by Drew Boylehart

    why any one believes Wentz, a division 2 QB, is the second best QB in this draft , when there are other QB’s in division 1 with more production, better accuracy size strong arm and athletic is way beyond me.

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    Deadpool

    Boylhart is an interesting read, except for his bias against small school kids.

    He didn’t like Ozzie taking Flacco in the 2008 draft: An excerpt from a SI.com article:

    “He doesn’t buy the Ravens nabbing Delaware quarterback Joe Flacco’s whip-snap arm with the 18th selection as a bold move but calls it another instance in which Baltimore general manager Ozzie Newsome “seems to fall in love with strong-armed quarterbacks and looks for nothing else.”

    Or this:

    When asked for an assessment of the draft on Sunday, Boylhart said, “I’m very surprised—and annoyed—at the number of small-college players picked ahead of good talent from larger schools. It’s almost as if scouts are saying, ‘I can find this sleeper pick’ and trying to make a name for themselves. Such b.s.”

    So its no surprise to me that Boylhart thinks Wentz is a 2nd round pick. And I’m fine with that. If I hated on everyone I disagreed with I would be one hateful SoB. The only reason I bring this up is that there is a history with Boylhart and small school guys.

    On the positive side, you get a different review from him then the Mayocks, Jeremiahs and Kipers of the draft world.[

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    dolphinlover123

    I’m a Cal fan and a prospective Rams fan. No Cal fan wants Goff to go to the Browns. We want the best for him and we hope that he goes to the Rams. Cal fans love Goff and have high expectations for him. It’s truly been a blessing to watch him play.

    He is really accurate most of the time and just makes plays. You might think that Wentz is better on his feet, but trust me, Goff knows when and how to use his feet. He scrambles really well and is actually deceivingly shifty. Wentz might be the more physical one, but Goff plays really smart, and he can throw his body for the team when necessary. He’s certainly done that at Cal.

    Goff could’ve been so much better had he had a little more time in the pocket. Our O-line was one of the worst and gave Goff very little time in the pocket (which also explains his very quick releases). Goff has taken so many hits the first two years at Cal. That’s one reason that I really hope that Goff goes to the Rams. He will get crushed at Cleveland. Make no mistake though. He is deadly when defenses show blitz. He lets them come to him and throws over them and eats them up.

    Goff throws great deep balls and knows which shoulder to throw at. His footwork has also received plenty of praise. Just give him some time in the pocket, and you’ve got a deadly QB.

    Don’t let Cal’s poor records in his first two years worry you. Our defense has been rated the worst in the entire division 1 football. Our O-line has also been prettyyyy bad. But still, he always keeps his cool and will make his throws.

    TLDR

    1. Goff is accurate and times his throws very well. Enough strength.
    2. He is great in the red-zone
    3. Amazing footwork that allows him to scramble and move in his pocket to buy time and look for his receivers
    4. Great against blitz
    5. Quick reads and releases
    6. He is a quality guy that won’t start drama. He is humble and does the right things.
    7. Cal’s defense and O-line sucked. And actually our running game was not good either. So even though we ran a pretty one dimensional offense, he did pretty well.

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    jrry32

    The Rams got tired of trying to plug the QB holes with a bunch of low percentage options. They made a ballsy move and increased the odds of finding a viable starting QB significantly. And they did it in the right year.

    I actually prefer Goff. He played behind a bad OL in college. Dude had to learn how to work the pocket and buy time with his footwork in order to survive. He’s a special player in terms of pocket instincts, movement, and poise under pressure. He has really quick feet as well which definitely helps.

    He’s the sort of guy who can buy time in the pocket with quick, subtle movements like Brady and Manning do/did. Guys like that are uber valuable and make their OLs look good.

    Unfortunately for Wentz, one of his biggest flaws right now is how raw his pocket movement is. He doesn’t keep his feet active when he’s standing in the pocket and his throwing base was too wide. He’s shown improvement since the end of the season but it’s still going to be something that he’ll have to keep working on and improving. Goff’s way ahead of him in terms of pocket movement and instincts.

    Wentz kind of reminds me of a young Bradford. He typically had good protection so he wasn’t forced to master pocket movement in the same way Goff was. He could settle after taking his drop a lot of the time. Goff had to move or he’d get crushed. If Bradford had Goff’s instincts in the pocket, his feet, and his pocket movement, Bradford would be one of the best QBs in the NFL right now.

    Goff is the more pro ready passer.

    Goff’s style of play is a very easy fit here. He’s a traditional pocket passer with solid mobility. He’s a pretty easy guy to fit into almost any NFL scheme.

    I like Wentz a lot but I prefer Goff. I think Goff will be a great QB. IMO, he has Peyton Manning like potential and I don’t take a statement like that lightly. Peyton Manning is the best QB I’ve ever seen play. Regardless, if they pick Wentz, I’ll be happy. If they pick Goff, I’ll be elated. It’s a decision they can’t mess up unless they don’t pick either.

    As for Mannion, he isn’t a throw away. He’s the expected outcome of a 3rd round QB…a backup. Your percentage chances of drafting a starting QB in the 3rd round are around 10%.

    Avatar photozn
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    ==

    from off the net

    ==

    Deadpool

    My Goff and Wentz breakdown

    First Goff

    Jared Goff – Cal – 6′-4″ 215 lbs

    The “Bear” Raid offense at a glance:
    4 WRs sets with no TE and a single back.
    A ton of screens, WR screens, inside screens, RB screens. Every screen in the book.
    Not a lot of deep stuff, more short to intermediate
    Never under center
    Never audibled (at least from what I could tell)
    Never called out line protections
    Very few designed QB roll outs
    Some called QB draws

    Pro’s:
    -Arm is enough to make all the NFL throws.
    Ex. Against Utah he threw from the opposite hash at the 41 yard line to the 3 yard line on a dime for a TD.
    -Moves well laterally in the pocket
    -Moves up well in the pocket
    -Goes though progressions
    Ex. He went to his 3rd and 2nd options early in the Utah game. 3rd progression at least once in UCLA game
    -He competes, even if Cal was out of it, he didn’t seem to give up and just kept firing
    -When allowed to set up his accuracy is elite at all levels
    Ex. he was lights out against Air Force
    -Will change arm slot to complete passes
    -Will put air under the ball when needed (although, he could do it more)
    -An ok runner, he knows how to slide
    -Willing to throw into tight windows
    -Can take a hit
    -Seems calm in a chaotic pocket

    Cons:
    -As stated, will take some time with a pro style offense
    -Sometimes is totally unaware of the rush. It could get him killed.
    -Deep ball accuracy is hit and miss
    -when forced to reload, accuracy is downright bad.
    -While arm is good enough, he rarely throws with a lot of zip. Not an elite arm.
    -Goes down on first contact.
    -Will force passes
    Ex. again going to the Utah game Lawler was at fault with the1st int., the next 4 (yes 5 total) were all on Goff.

    ==

    Next Wentz:

    Carson Wentz – NDSU – 6′-5″ 237 lbs.

    NDSU’s offense at a glance:
    Ball control pro style offense. Top FCS team usually in ToP, like to control the line of Scrimmage with 3 RBs in the run game and wear you down.
    Will run some jet sweep stuff
    A fair amount of QB keeper stuff.
    Playaction
    Under center and from the gun.

    Pro’s:
    -Wentz had total control of the offense, from calling any play in the playbook to calling out protections.
    -Played from under center
    -Elite arm
    -Throws with touch at all levels
    -Will change arm slot to make the completion
    -Will move in the pocket to avoid the rush, but also to find a throwing lane
    -Can throw on the run, but he will throw on the run. Rarely stops after a roll out, sets and throws.
    -Tough, physical runner
    -throws into tight windows
    -Clutch QB, seems calm all the time
    Ex. – see last TD pass in Northern Iowa game.
    -Was consistently the best QB this off-season. From Senior Bowl to Combine, step up in competition didn’t effect him.
    -Goes thru progressions (although not all the time)
    Ex. Northern Iowa, 1st pass of the game starts looking left, moves to the middle and throws there, incomplete.
    He competes.

    Con’s
    -Needs to learn to slide or go out of bounds. He is an aggressive runner that could get him killed in the NFL.
    -Has had a few injuries over his career, ankle sprain against Montana, broken wrist against USD (never came out of either game, although he should have)
    -Accuracy can be spotty, more-so as a Jr then a Sr., but if his accuracy was off, it stayed off.
    -Sometimes takes off and runs too early, not going thru progressions
    -Needs to speed up his process. Although it looked fine at the Senior Bowl. He can be late on some throws.
    -Makes some throws that just should not be made. Trusts his arm too much I guess.

    ==

    As far as other stuff

    Both are smart, clean off the field prospects that are seemingly leaders (I know Wentz is, Goff seems like it) that really comes down to personal taste.

    One one hand you have a smaller, QB with a lot of bigtime college football under his belt. On the other hand you have a big, strong armed QB with 14 fewer starts at the FCS level.

    You are going to hear upside with Wentz and more polished with Goff. I don’t necessarily buy that. Wentz has performed well at everything he has been asked to. Senior Bowl with a bunch of FBS guys? Best QB all week. Combine with the the best of the best and who was the best? Wentz again. So at what point does Wentz get credit for just being a good QB?

    The other thing is that you hear: Well, he played at division 2 (wrong) or played at a lower level or beat up on lesser competition. Well sure, but his team was also built from the same type of guys. He never had a Lawler on his team like Goff did. Heck, Jacksonville State was built with basically all FBS transfers, not NDSU. If you want to argue that he has only thrown 600 or so college passes, fine. I’ll buy that. But he has competed at every level of this thing and nothing phases him.

    And as far as Goff, he might be more polished as far as passing, but he has a ways to go in a pro style offense. As far as pro style offense its Wentz all day. I think Goff is actually the one with the upside. He’s younger, his arm/body can and should get bigger and as he grows into a pro style offense he will get more comfortable and to me that lends itself to upside.

    To me they are close to even. I give Wentz the edge on his size/arm. but its personal taste.I like a Rothlisberger over a Ryan. Or a Flacco over Bridgewater.

    If you feel more comfortable with a guy like Matt Ryan you are going to like Goff. If a big armed QB that can extend plays with his legs like Rothlisberger, then Wentz is your guy.

    Here’s the million dollar question: Does Wentz make the leap to the NFL more or less seamless then Goff makes the adjustment to a prostyle offense?

    Oh and just food for thought: Who do you want as your QB in Seattle in December in the rain with the division on the line? Or GB in January in the first round of the playoffs?

    And for dessert: Could lightning really strike twice and Goff actually develops into Aaron Rodgers? Or Kyle Boller?

    Avatar photozn
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    from off the net

    ==

    alyoshamucci

    Gotta say I prefer Wentz, But I have no problem if it’s Goff at all. I think I said right after the combine I expected them to go 1-2 overall. Maybe earlier than the combine.[

    For Goff … I have only seen footwork like his within the pocket from Brady. It’s a small thing, and Flip mentions it in his ability to move smoothly, but the amount of plays I saw him easily slide around with guys in the pocket with him, or in a collapsing pocket, to make the same type of throw that I would expect of a flawlessly clean pocket … it’s just stunning. His pocket movement makes him look like a video game character. Like he’s defying physics.
    Also, a second thing … cognition speed. It was highlighted on my favorite play by him (I have these for all QBs I think can go top ten). It was 3rd and 7 … he had two plays before well defended .. and the defense was playing really tight. At the snap of the ball he spotted the tiniest opening where Lawler was going to split 3 defenders … from mid snap to the ball reaching his hands he was already set to throw and he barely shuffled his weight on his feet … I have to say that of the three defenders, none of them got a full step toward where Lawler made the catch. He trusted his feet, his arm, his accuracy, his WR, and his read … and caught the defense flat-footed.

    For Wentz
    I did not expect him to even really play the National Championship game … and coming off an injury I didn’t expect him sharp. So the sheer surprise was kinda radical. His first throw in the Senior Bowl was into a really tight window … in fact, the players were under and over coverage and were daring him to throw it in. And he was like “Yeah I can hit that” … and he stuck it over and under the deep corner and underneath man right on the sideline. I actually “felt” the throw.
    Wentz’s body language suggests personality characteristics I like in a human being … passion and humility intertwined.

    One thing I like in my QBs is irrational optimism. And having the mixture of passion and humility is more likely to produce that. That the psych theorist in me talking, but that’s part of my system.

    Avatar photozn
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    ===

    from a much longer post, here: http://www.ramsrule.com/herd/read.php?5,651218,651218#msg-651218

    =

    XXXIVwin

    I know I’m late to the Goff/Wentz debate-fest, but I gotta get this off my chest.

    To me, Goff looks special. Wentz looks like he could be “very good.”

    BOTTOM LINE: When I watch Jared Goff’s college tape, I get the same reaction as when I watched see Aaron Donald’s college tape. Many times I thought “WOW—how did he do that!??!!” And then, even more shocking, it becomes ROUTINE. The more you watch Goff’s tape, the more you realize he does the amazing REPEATEDLY and CONSISTENTLY. And it’s the same damn knock for both Donald and Goff: “Yeah, but he’s a little small for the position.” For both Goff and Donald, it’s demonstrably not true.

    To me, Goff looks Super Bowls, Wentz looks Playoffs. Wentz has “It”, Goff has IT.

    FINAL DISCLAIMER: I acknowledge I could be wrong about EVERYTHING in this long post, I’ve been horribly wrong about the Rams plenty of times. Maybe Goff is weak-armed and too skinny and he’ll have trouble adjusting to a pro-style offense and all his good habits will get knocked out of him. Maybe Wentz will be a solid stud for years to come.

    But right now, I have my heart set on Goff, and I’ll have to drink lots of Kool-Aid if they surprise me and go with Wentz. For Wentz supporters, feel free to disagree with me, I know we all just want what’s best for our Rams!

    Avatar photozn
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    from off the net

    ==

    Flipper336

    Wentz is my pick . I like elite/rare traits and Wentz has them. I can run ANY play I can dream off and I like what little I have seen personality wise. 

    There is no way the Rams QB won’t be asked to work from under center and sell play action from there. So who has more reps doing what will they will be asked to do the most?

    QUARTERBACK GRADING

    This is the sheet I made to watch EVERY QB. Posted it here for a few years so it isn’t geared for a QB I like THIS year. I don’t change everything I have been doing because I think some guy has “IT”. “IT” is gradable when actual qualities are broken down IMO. This sheet is what I look for and how I balance attributes and their importance. If I can’t see the QB do these things I do not simply assume they will “just get it with practice”. It’s on here because some simply do NOT get it with more practice and all do it with different precision. 

    SET UP AND POCKET AWARENESS – 10 (76)
    -quickness to release from under center into three-, five-, or seven-step drops with mobility and foot quickness with balance.
    -chin on shoulder for backside awareness
    -mobility in pocket to elude and avoid…hitch, hitch slide and throw
    -feel pocket pressure
    -strength in pocket
    -does he know when to run/throw
    -roll out left and right
    -square shoulders on the move
    -does he drift in the pocket?

    WENTZ VS GOFF –
    The obvious, no idea how Goff will react to playing from under center. Wentz has good speed in his drops, settles with balance but then gets a bit inconsistent. Sometimes stands with dead feet and will sometimes widen his base too much. Both do a good job feeling pressure and will shuffle their feet away from it. Wentz will default to run a bit quickly at times while Goff defaults to fading back or throwing from his back foot. I like both in the pocket but if asked to pick a favorite I’ll take Goff. Both will stand their ground and deliver. Wentz seems to take those shots often in his legs while Goff takes more traditional shots. No plus/minus, just an observation on the Wentz hits (I felt it was a very high percentage of low hits) Wentz has a big edge throwing on the move/rolling out. Not only can Wentz make every throw on the move, his passes don’t look very different from when his feet are under him. Can’t think of anyone recently that is his equal here. 

    EDGE – Wentz. I know pocket awareness is THE Goff trait but in my grading Wentz has done more, is no slouch in the pocket, and is a rare talent throwing on the move (from a moving pocket or not). 

    FIELD VISION/DEFENSE AND COVERAGE RECOGNITION – 10
    -pre snap defensive reads/ability to identify the Mike linebacker, low safety or corner from slot and change protection
    -blitz recognition
    -ability to audible or change play at the line of scrimmage
    -finding primary and secondary receivers
    -coverage recognition on the move.
    -quick and accurate reads
    -proper progression
    -timing 

    WENTZ VS GOFF –
    Both make pre and post snap reads. I believe Goff was given more responsibility in his offense because he showed he could but I still feel Wentz overall had more control/responsibilities because of the offense he was in.  I have been reading Wentz doesn’t scan the field…I disagree. Both throw a LARGE percentage to their first read but I feel North Dakota’s first options took longer to develop so Wentz “starred down” his first option while Goff “made a quick decision”. I will say that Wentz has a good percentage of half field reads (especially because they roll the pocket a bunch) so you won’t see his head back and forth but he’s making reads.  I like Goff’s progressions MUCH more compared to almost all QBs in any variant of his offense. He will allow plays to develop instead of the usual almost instant check down that makes me crazy in these offenses. Wentz could actually to a better job utilizing his check down. He will allow the play to develop…too long at times because he is very willing to default to his legs if even the check down is taken away. Goff is more willing to admit defeat on a given play (not a negative) Wentz holds out longer and is more willing to trust his arm when the play was simply defensed well or his legs to save a totally busted play. 

    EDGE – Goff. Goff makes quick/smart decisions and has a good clock for plays developing. Wentz is too willing to default to his talent below the shoulders while Goff plays the game above the shoulders for as long as possible. 

    ACCURACY AND TOUCH – 10
    -throwing all types of passing variations, trajectory, and ability to spin ball while taking off some strength.
    -short: catchable balls thrown where defenders can’t make a play, squeeze into window, screen/swing passes
    -intermediate/long: Stick it on receiver, deep-ball placement, squeeze over linebacker in front of safeties.

    WENTZ VS GOFF –
    Both throw very catchable passes to all levels of the field. Wentz is the one that can throw a rope deep or across the field…Goff relies more on timing with these types of throws. Goff is better on slants/crossing patterns. I prefer Goff’s touch on timing based patterns and Wentz throwing in/through traffic. I will also say that Wentz was held back on long passes because his WRs lacked speed. Some will say overthrow on several passes I felt lacked ANY closing burst from his receiver. 

    EDGE – What offense are you running? 

    DELIVERY AND RELEASE – 8
    -type of release (over ear, sidearm, pitcher release on post leg, elongated motion)?
    -upper-body passer lacks weight transfer?
    -foot placement/balance 
    -release quickness 
    -follow through
    -throw from different platforms?

    WENTZ VS GOFF –
    Both have good arm motions. Goff has much better balance, consistency, and weight transfer. Honestly, he’s basically a finished product here. Wentz has an inconsistent lower half. He gets very wide in his base at times causing almost all arm throws. Gets away with it in college because his arm is so strong but will need much better lower/upper body communication. Wentz is a clear winner throwing from different arm slots. He can do it and lose almost nothing on his throw. 

    EDGE – Goff. 

    ARM STRENGTH – 8
    -live arm?
    -intermediate velocity/zip
    -long velocity/zip
    -tightness of spiral
    -wind up deep?
    -balls lose interest?

    WENTZ VS GOFF –
    Wentz has a rare arm. I’m comfortable saying Goff can make every NFL throw…because he can. Wentz can make some mad scientist OC dream throws or throws a defense can’t plan for. He can throw to all levels with ease, even on the move, stick throws between defenders and sideline throws that are only seen in rare arm talents. 

    EDGE – Wentz

    LEADERSHIP AND POISE – 6
    -commands respect, raises expectation while elevating the play of teammates?
    -composure and the ability to perform in pressure situations
    -not forcing balls into double or triple coverage
    -ability and confidence to consistently deliver big plays under pressure
    -smart decisions in time out management, milk clock before snapping ball
    -4th quarter 

    WENTZ VS GOFF –
    Both seem well respected by teammates and coaches. Wentz is going to take this section for me because of his play in the LATE 4th quarter of big games. Last minute game winning TD vs a tough Northern Iowa team with NFL talent, National championship game last year, and I’m drawing a blank on I feel two others (any help Deadpool?) but the bottom line is that his game steps up big in big situations. 

    EDGE – Wentz

    BALL HANDLING – 4
    -hand size
    -under center transfer
    -snap in shotgun
    -selling play action 
    -smooth with eyes downfield
    -where does the QB hold the ball

    WENTZ VS GOFF –
    Again, Goff will get dinged here because of his offense. He does well in every aspect that he is asked to do though. No small hand issues. I can think of one pump fake into the dirt but that happens to everyone once in awhile. Now with all the caveats out of the way…Wentz is very good in this area. As with any run option plan there will be some exchange issues but they are rare and Wentz is excellent at selling fakes/play action. Their red zone/short yardage offense takes full advantage of this and it shows in some WIDE open plays in a very congested part of the field. 

    EDGE – Wentz

    RUNNING ABILITY- 4
    -scrambling
    -ability to run downhill with production
    -big-play runner
    -yards after contact

    WENTZ VS GOFF –
    Wentz is the obvious winner here BUT Goff can move the chains with his legs when a play breaks down. 

    EDGE – Wentz

    POTENTIAL – 10
    -if utilized in ideal scenario

    EDGE – Wentz. If you don’t see the upside difference, I can’t show it to you. 

    HEIGHT/WEIGHT – 6
    -for a particular position

    EDGE – Wentz, BUT I am not scared by Goff’s weight/frame AT ALL. 

    GENERAL TALKING POINTS –

    Level of competition. Doesn’t factor for me. Wentz also played WITH lower level competition, not just against, and his physical talent was man amongst boys. 

    in reply to: Wagoner: Rams have reasons for keeping top pick secret #42259
    Avatar photozn
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    , if something like that occurred, the Rams would be forgiven for having a change of heart if they had announced their pick. But the extra time allows them to turn over any possible stone that might still exist just to be absolutely certain they have the right guy.

    Plus, this is supposed to be a 12-15 year marriage.

    So they don’t want to pick a guy who knows he wasn’t the favorite until the “unforseen event.”

    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    from a much longer post, here: http://www.ramsrule.com/herd/read.php?5,651218,651218#msg-651218

    =

    XXXIVwin

    I know I’m late to the Goff/Wentz debate-fest, but I gotta get this off my chest.

    To me, Goff looks special. Wentz looks like he could be “very good.”

    BOTTOM LINE: When I watch Jared Goff’s college tape, I get the same reaction as when I watched see Aaron Donald’s college tape. Many times I thought “WOW—how did he do that!??!!” And then, even more shocking, it becomes ROUTINE. The more you watch Goff’s tape, the more you realize he does the amazing REPEATEDLY and CONSISTENTLY. And it’s the same damn knock for both Donald and Goff: “Yeah, but he’s a little small for the position.” For both Goff and Donald, it’s demonstrably not true.

    To me, Goff looks Super Bowls, Wentz looks Playoffs. Wentz has “It”, Goff has IT.

    FINAL DISCLAIMER: I acknowledge I could be wrong about EVERYTHING in this long post, I’ve been horribly wrong about the Rams plenty of times. Maybe Goff is weak-armed and too skinny and he’ll have trouble adjusting to a pro-style offense and all his good habits will get knocked out of him. Maybe Wentz will be a solid stud for years to come.

    But right now, I have my heart set on Goff, and I’ll have to drink lots of Kool-Aid if they surprise me and go with Wentz. For Wentz supporters, feel free to disagree with me, I know we all just want what’s best for our Rams!

    in reply to: Tweets 4/17 – Keenum signs tender – Reynolds signs #42229
    Avatar photozn
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    #Rams QB Case Keenum signed his 1-year RFA tender today.

    Good. Let the Keenum era begin.

    Now they can take the DB Ramsey with the 1st pick.

    Avatar photozn
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    Carson Wentz or Jared Goff: Who will be picked first in NFL draft?

    http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/04/14/nfl-draft-quarterbacks-carson-wentz-jared-goff

    With the news that the Titans traded away the No. 1 pick in the 2016 NFL draft to the Rams, rumors are flying that a QB will be taken first for the second year in a row. Now, it’s time to speculate who will hear his name called first. SI.com’s Chris Burke and Doug Farrar debate between North Dakota State’s Carson Wentz and Cal’s Jared Goff.

    Doug Farrar: O.K. Chris, it’s time to talk quarterbacks. And it seems that you and I see Carson Wentz and Jared Goff—the two highest-placed prospects in this class—rather differently. In my SI 50, I have Goff ranked at No. 14 and Wentz seventh. Where do you have them, and would you like to start out with a few thoughts on your obviously egregious rankings?

    Chris Burke: Well, I have Goff at No. 14 and Wentz at No. 34. As that number indicates, I’d put a late-Round 1/early-Round 2 grade on Wentz. And I guess my argument would start with this: To some extent, I feel like there has been a rush to knock Goff because he comes from an Air Raid system and/or because he is on the wiry side. When I watch him play, though, I see more than enough to convince me that his game can translate to the next level, especially in how quick he is with his feet and delivery. That’s not to say that Wentz has no discernible NFL traits. I’m just less sure on the timetable.

    So … convince me I’m wrong.

    Farrar: Interestingly enough, we have Goff ranked the same, so I’ll start with him. My concerns with Goff don’t have anything to do with the Bear Raid (the Air Raid system that Cal ran under coach Sonny Dykes and offensive coordinator Tony Franklin)—NFL teams have learned to compensate for the limitations of their quarterbacks’ college offenses—or his build.

    I find that he’s so inconsistent with his mechanics, and thusly, his ball placement. My NFL comparison for him is Ryan Tannehill, because I’ll watch him have these impressive stretches of accuracy to all areas of the field, and then things start to fall apart. He’ll throw to his receiver’s back shoulder. He’ll throw with anticipation, but the timing doesn’t really work. I’ll see him throw his guys right into danger over the middle.

    While he’s praised for his game under pressure, I see plays where his clock speeds up too much, and he’ll make throws he shouldn’t. I also question his ability to throw into tight windows—not the velocity, but the timing and accuracy. For the most part, I think he’s a “see-it-and-throw-it” player who varies too often on timing throws. Whether that’s a product of his offensive system or not, I don’t know how much of that is fixable. He’s quick, yes, but too often, he’s quickly wrong.

    Why do you have Wentz in the early second round? I obviously think he’s the best quarterback in this class (actually, I don’t think it’s particularly close), so tell me what you see to knock him down.

    Burke: For starters (and maybe this isn’t totally fair), I do worry about the FCS-to-NFL jump for Wentz, especially when he is coming off a year in which he made just seven starts. He improved as a player from year to year, which is a critical factor, but the learning curve is going to be steep. Some of the issues you have with Goff are the same ones I have with Wentz. The latter’s mistakes do not strike me so much as poor reads or panic so much as just overconfidence in his arm, which is strong but not in the Brett Favre/gunslinger sense. A lot of the mistakes Wentz got away with at North Dakota State are turnovers in the NFL. I also think he will be limited as a downfield passer—the deep throws were better in 2015, yet it’s still a sporadic aspect of his game.

    You also mention being unsure about the praise of Goff against pressure. I’m not 100% sold on Wentz’s footwork, despite the fact that he is an exciting athlete at the position. He can get out of sync when he’s outside the pocket; inside it, the whole process—from snap to read to throw—can be lethargic at times.

    It sounds like I hate him as a prospect. I don’t, even a bit. I just think he is a project, hence the ranking. What do I have wrong about him?

    Farrar: I think they’re both projects, and I wouldn’t start either one of them their first years in the NFL. I don’t think that first-year NFL quarterback exists in this draft class.

    I get the thing about Wentz’s limited starts, but I would turn that around and point to how well he’s developed in such a short time. I mean, he had one season at the position in high school, and a couple of years as a backup, and then, there he was. I think that speaks to a natural affinity for the position. And I don’t buy the learning curve argument to the degree that it’s sold. If you watch the Wentz episode of Gruden’s QB Camp, there are a ton of passing concepts in North Dakota State’s offense that are pro-ready, just under different verbiages. Wentz ran multiple play-action concepts out of the backfield. He dealt with a full route tree. He made more than one read. He’s not as good at the read thing as Goff is at this point, but I have no doubt that he can get there, and NFL teams regularly adjust their reads to fit the abilities of their young quarterbacks.

    I’ve talked to people in the know who have told me that Wentz’s reads are actually harder than Goff’s, so there’s that. I think he’s better at throwing to the point at which the receiver has the best opportunity to catch the ball, and the defender is at a disadvantage. I think he throws with anticipation more often and more consistently. Does he trust his arm too much at times? Sure, but he also makes some dynamite throws into tight windows. If I’m a coach, I’d rather have to manage that ability than have to try and create it out of whatever I have. Wentz takes more time to process, but he also makes up for it with a very quick release. Get him up to speed on the processing side, and there’s more to work with.

    Where I agree with you completely on Wentz is that he’s not yet a consistent thrower on the run. He doesn’t square his shoulders to the target and has to make too many adjustments as a result, especially on contested boundary throws. That’s something he needs to sort out. As far as the simplicity of the enemy defenses, one could easily make the same argument about Goff. He regularly faced base nickel and dime defenses with little in the way of adjustments because the offense was so wide-open. I’ll also posit that Wentz’s strength of opponent debit can be negated to a large degree by the guys he was throwing to, and the guys who were blocking for him. When you isolate the players, I think Wentz has a higher floor AND a higher ceiling.

    Burke: Well, I think Goff is closest in this class to being pro-ready (I’d argue No. 2 is Connor Cook, but that is another topic for another day). There will be bumpy moments with him, as you said, but circle back to my argument about the rapidity with which Goff operates when the ball is in his hands and that should translate. Will the decision-making be an issue? Possibly. I do not think he will be taken aback by NFL speed, though.

    To me, Goff would fit best in a West Coast offense with some spread principles—that’s why I keep selling the fit to San Francisco. While he’s not “mobile” in the way that we think of Marcus Mariota or Cam Newton, he certainly has the quickness in his footwork to elevate a West Coast attack via rollouts and play-actions.

    One of the bigger selling points I get from Wentz, at least in terms of comparing these two quarterbacks, is that he projects as a more across-the-board option. Ideally, I’d like to see him in a scheme that allows him to get out of the pocket rather frequently, either via run plays with QB options built in or boots/waggles off fakes. Think Adam Gase or Gary Kubiak, and that’s what I have in mind.

    Farrar: Well, at least we agree on the scheme fits. Anyway, since we started this debate, the Rams have made a major trade to nab the No. 1 pick in the 2016 draft. We assume they’re going quarterback, and reports indicate that while they’re leaning Wentz’s way, they’re not completely decided yet. It seems that we’ll be arguing Goff vs. Wentz for the Rams, and the Rob Boras offense—whatever that may be. The Rams obviously feature their tight ends a ton, they love to run power, and Jeff Fisher has always preferred that his quarterbacks manage mistakes rather than amplifying them through the pursuit of big plays. Like it or not, as is the case with most defensive-minded coaches, he wants a guy who will run the system and transcend it in manageable bits and bobs.

    Given those constraints, who do you think makes the most sense for the Rams at No. 1? I’ll still go with Wentz here. He ran all kinds of play-action and option stuff and he has experience with QB power. While both quarterbacks are mobile, Wentz is the bigger and better pure runner.

    CB: I guess the question is: Has that been the Rams’ offense because they want it to be or because they couldn’t do anything else with the QB talent they have had? Given what we know, at least, Wentz probably is the choice here and you hit on the main reason I’d argue that: wanting to run power. If I’m choosing between Wentz and Goff to operate that style of attack—under center, RB coming downhill—then Wentz’s current skill set better fits the mold. He has experience doing that. Goff may be able to transition into those things (and probably will have to, to a certain extent) but the current Los Angeles offense is built for a quarterback more like Wentz.[/quote]

    in reply to: qbs in the draft: Goff & Wentz #42216
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    gotta watch this clip.

    Probably these are already posted too but why not do them again.

    in reply to: qbs in the draft: Goff & Wentz #42213
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    How Cal is developing Jared Goff into the next great NFL quarterback hope

    By Sean Wagner-McGough | Staff Writer

    September 11, 2015

    http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/25297136/how-cals-jared-goff-became-nations-top-nfl-quarterback-prospect

    BERKELEY, Calif. — Jared Goff runs a no-huddle offense called the Bear Raid, slings more than 40 passes a game and takes nearly every snap from the shotgun. But Cal’s quarterback isn’t just another overhyped college signal caller who puts up gaudy numbers against college defenses only to fail at the next level.
    Goff, a 6-foot-4 junior, is built for the NFL.

    “If you could design a quarterback,” says Cal head coach Sonny Dykes, “it would look a lot like Jared Goff.”

    Since winning the starting job as a true freshman in the summer of 2013, Goff has started every single game for the Bears, completing nearly 62 percent of his passes for roughly 7,800 yards and 56 touchdowns. But in Goff’s tenure as Cal’s starter, his defense has been gouged for more than 40 points per game. In 25 starts, Goff has ran off the field a winner just seven times.

    Despite that ugly fact, Goff might just be the top pick in the 2016 NFL Draft. Goff, like Aaron Rodgers before him, has a shot at superstardom.

    “He’s got that calmness,” says Mazi Moayed, his former coach at Marin Catholic High School. “We’d say, ‘Hey, he’s got the Joe Coolness.’ He has that gift.”

    But a gift is empty unless it’s harnessed.

    Start with the right system

    Before examining the skills that make Goff a top prospect, it’s important to understand the system that Goff has functioned within since debuting two years ago. Under the guidance of Dykes and offensive coordinator Tony Franklin, Cal runs a system nicknamed the Bear Raid, a modified version of the Air Raid.

    The main difference between the Bear Raid and Air Raid — systems that are both based out of the shotgun and frequently feature three to four wide receivers — is the former’s desire to run the football. Though he hasn’t made it happen yet at Cal, Dykes maintains that he wants to establish a 50-50 run-pass balance. Dykes arrived at Cal at the same time as Goff, and in their first two seasons together, the Bears’ run-pass ratio hovered around 43-57.

    Regardless of the play calling, two aspects of the system remain true: It’s fast and it’s simple.

    Instead of huddling, the offense turns to the sideline, where players and coaches signal each position group’s role for the next play. By running no-huddle, Cal consistently tires out opposing defenses over the course of four quarters.

    The simplicity of the system isn’t so obvious. The easiest way to explain the Bear Raid is by calling it a progression-based system rooted in concepts. Translation: Goff is asked to read defenses on every snap.

    “We go through our progression, we throw it to the guy who is open or we run the football,” Franklin says.

    At the core of the offense are nine passing concepts, five or six screen concepts and five or six running concepts.

    “When you learn the concept, you understand the word,” Franklin says. “So when you say ‘sluggo,’ immediately your brain says ‘OK, sluggo means this. It means my eyes start here, there’s a player going there and I’m bam, bam, bam, one, two, three.’ So most of us, within a two-week period, can learn those concepts, they can master that in their brain.”

    That doesn’t mean that Cal is running only 20 different plays throughout a game. Each concept can be tagged to add a slight variation. A tag, in the words of Franklin, is just a “word that changes something that somebody does.” That something could be the route of a receiver or the protection scheme of the offensive line.

    During our conversation, Franklin says that if I were his starting quarterback, I could learn the offense tomorrow. But when Franklin gives me a specific example to illustrate his use of concepts and tags, I begin to seriously doubt that.

    “I could run ‘north’ and I could run ‘sluggo X,'” Franklin says. “So in [Goff’s] brain, if I said ‘north sluggo,’ he knows that it’s a high-low read for him. It’s a high-low and then to a checkdown. If I tag ‘X’ … if I go ‘sluggo X,’ he knows now that his eyes have to start opposite of the X (receiver). He knows now that he’s high, middle, low — rather than high, low, middle.

    “So take the same concept and I could go, ‘north on pop sluggo X.’ So now, I’ve added four words because I’ve changed the offensive line protection with my play call. So it could be as easy as ‘north sluggo.’ End of story. Or it could be ‘north on pop sluggo X Z takeoff.’ I could keep adding. But in his brain he still keeps going ‘sluggo is a high-low concept.’ It’s a concept-based deal. So he learns a concept, then I can make an adjustment in a game that we might not have ever repped. If I tag it, he’ll know it.”

    Got all that?

    “It may look like to the defense that it’s a different play,” Franklin says. “To us it’s the same play. It’s just somebody did something a little different.”

    Evolving from guessing to knowing

    Even on running plays, the quarterback is required to read defenses, regularly deciding pre-snap whether to hand the ball off or flip to a passing play. That decision, which is based on the alignment of the defense, is sometimes made at the exact moment the ball is snapped if the defense changes its look at the last second.

    “I’ll call an average of 85 plays per game,” Franklin says. “And probably 75 to 80 of those plays will have multiple possibilities of what he can do.”

    Goff realized this as soon as he arrived on campus in the spring of 2013 and immersed himself in the offense.

    “We run a lot of run/pass stuff, where we have a run play and a pass play on at the same time — screens or outs on the backside of run plays,” Goff says. “The most difficult part for me was deciding when to run and when to pass, because I had never done that before.”

    It didn’t always go well. While Goff stopped short of saying he was guessing his first season, he acknowledged that he had difficulty learning how to read a defense. His teammate and friend, tight end Raymond Hudson, has a better way of framing Goff’s initial struggles.

    “He used to be very bad, even when we played Madden,” Hudson says in between laughs. “He was just one of those guys. I’d do something and he’d have no clue what the coverage was or anything. He was always asking.”

    Franklin weighs Goff’s decision making in terms of percentages, saying that Goff made the right decision probably 60 to 70 percent of the time in his freshman season. Last season, Franklin says Goff made the correct call 80 percent of the time. This year, Franklin expects Goff to be right about 90 to 95 percent of the time.

    Goff also makes judgment calls once the play is already in motion. For instance, when the team runs a play called “four verticals” (Dykes once said they run four verticals 40 times a game), which is just a fancy way of saying “go long,” some of Cal’s receivers are allowed to break off their routes based on the coverage. If a wide receiver cuts off his streak mid-route, both Goff and his target have to be on the same page while the play unfolds.

    Franklin attributes Goff’s progress to game and practice reps, but it goes beyond that.

    “Occasionally in class you’ll see him peeking at his iPad, just watching some film. He’s always got his head on football,” Hudson says. “Now, he’s got it all down. He knows everything.”

    Cut the QB loose

    Goff’s newfound knowledge of the game grants him the right to put that knowledge to use.

    As a freshman, Goff could only make minor changes at the line of scrimmage. If he saw a particular coverage, he could modify a receiver’s route, commonly known as a “hot route.” Even last year, that was the full extent of Goff’s freedom.

    “All he had to do was run what I called,” Franklin says. “And then his options were usually really simple, as to whether or not to hand it off to this guy or to throw it to that guy.”

    Now?

    For the first time in his career, Goff can change anything and everything he wants at the line of scrimmage. From routes to the protection scheme, he can call whatever he wants.

    “I trust him with my job,” Franklin says. “When you’re letting a guy do that, then you’re putting it all in his hands.”

    About a week before Cal’s season opener, I watched Goff at the line of scrimmage during practice, wondering if he had transformed into college football’s Peyton Manning. It wasn’t as demonstrative as that. Goff doesn’t stand at the line and bark out signals for 20 seconds. His changes are much more subtle and infrequent, but when there are issues with the play, he recognizes them quickly and makes the necessary adjustments.

    On one specific play, just prior to the snap, the defensive line shifted to Goff’s right. Goff responded by gesturing to his running back on his right. He called for the snap and almost immediately a free rusher shot up the A gap. But the running back, knowing full well where the rush was coming from, picked up the defender. Meanwhile, Goff, with his eyes still downfield, spotted the mismatch. He lofted a pass 30 yards down the right sideline. His receiver didn’t break his stride.

    “One thing that I like about him is he doesn’t go overboard with it,” says wide receiver Bryce Treggs. “Sometimes you give a quarterback some freedom and he’ll just completely run his own offense and change the whole system. He doesn’t abuse his authority. He stays within the scheme of our offense.”

    Focus on the feet, not the arm

    Goff might not mirror Manning before a play begins, but once the ball is snapped, there’s at least one aspect of Goff that might draw comparisons to the NFL’s all-time touchdown leader. Arguably the strongest asset at Goff’s disposal is his footwork, which resembles Manning’s feet on Sundays.

    “I try to pride myself in having really quick feet and being able to set up and throw balls in time,” Goff says. “Having my feet be as good as I want them to be can get me out of a lot of problems when I’m in the pocket and stuff starts to break down. There’s rarely ever a perfect pocket.”

    When Goff maneuvers inside the pocket, his feet bounce up and down off the turf. Franklin calls this “Peyton Manning feet,” adding that they frequently watch film of Manning.

    “We get our feet as hot as a typewriter,” Franklin says. “We’re always able to move and find a throwing lane because we’re always having our feet hot like a typewriter.”

    n the clip above, taken from the first game of Goff’s sophomore season against Northwestern, you can see just how quick and short Goff’s steps are, which is something that Franklin emphasizes because it allows Goff to release the football at a moment’s notice.

    “Manning will move from the A gap to the C gap feet — feet hot, hot all the time, typing all the time. He can throw the ball back across the field because his body position is perfect,” Franklin says. “Guys who step have to wait until the foot lands before they can throw the ball.”

    Though Goff is by no means a running quarterback, one of his most underrated qualities is his ability to extend plays behind the line of scrimmage, which is a skill that Franklin attributes to Goff’s footwork.

    Franklin typically spends a portion of practice putting his quarterbacks through a series of footwork drills while the team works on kickoffs. There’s one drill in particular that Franklin runs with his quarterbacks.

    The six of them line up in rows of three, so that each quarterback is across from another, separated by no more than a few yards. One row of quarterbacks holds the footballs. Franklin then spews out verbiage that sounds like a foreign language to me. The quarterbacks nod.

    “Hit!” Franklin commands.

    The three quarterbacks holding the footballs toss them across to the other three, who put their feet to work, lightly bouncing around in each of their imaginary pockets, scanning a field filled with made-up targets and defenders. They repeat this drill over and over, with Franklin changing the play call every few reps and the quarterbacks adjusting their footwork and eye level to correspond with the call.

    All six quarterbacks are quick on their feet, but Goff’s reach another level.

    “His feet and pocket presence are amazing,” Treggs says. “Whenever he needs to throw the ball, he’s ready. He doesn’t need to set his feet. They’re already ready to throw.”

    Be on time with one’s weapons

    Treggs and the coaches rave about Goff’s footwork, but many of his receivers only see the final result of his footwork, leading some of them to conclude that Goff’s accuracy is his strongest weapon.

    “Man, that pinpoint accuracy that he’s got is deadly,” says wide receiver Kenny Lawler.

    “You just turn your head and the ball is always right there,” Hudson says. “We’re never being thrown into hits, he’s always leading us away … He throws it to wherever they’re not.”

    They’re not wrong.

    Two years ago, Goff completed 60 percent of his passes. Last year, that number rose to 62 percent. Both Goff and Franklin want his completion percentage to land somewhere in between 66 and 70 percent this season. Keep in mind that Goff often unloads deep bombs throughout the course of the game, which undoubtedly lowers his percentage.

    A mainstay of Cal’s offense is the fade. Receivers like Lawler, who Dykes nicknamed “Vicinity Kenny” due to his uncanny ability to make catches on balls thrown anywhere within his general vicinity, typically find a way to come up with catches in the corner of the end zone. While Cal’s receivers garner their fair share of attention for the dozens of circus catches they’ve hauled in over the past couple seasons, Goff also deserves credit for seemingly always placing the ball in a spot that only his receivers can reach.

    “People think I make it look easy,” Lawler says. “But, man, it’s really easy because of Goff. We have our timing down and he knows exactly where the ball needs to be at the exact right time.”

    Goff’s timing didn’t come immediately. According to Treggs, when Goff was a freshman, “a lot of his throws were late, overthrown and behind us.” But when I asked Treggs about Goff’s best attribute now, he pointed to his timing.

    “He can make all the throws,” Dykes says. “He’s a guy that can throw the comeback and the cross-the field-routes, and all those things — he’s got that kind of arm.”

    Know your flaws

    Goff isn’t a finished product — he’s 6-foot-4 but could benefit from bulking up. He has his weaknesses, namely his impatience and decision making.

    “Sometimes I try to force it,” Goff says. “I try to do more than I can.”

    Against UCLA last season, Goff cost his team a win when he tried to force the issue. With less than a minute remaining in the game, the Bears trailed by just two and had the ball on UCLA’s 36 yard line. On 2nd-and-7, Cal called “four verticals,” hoping to target an inside receiver and pick up the 10 yards or so required to turn a long field goal attempt into a makeable kick. Instead, Goff was baited by UCLA cornerback Marcus Rios, who initially showed press coverage on Lawler on the outside but then backed away.

    It worked. When Goff lobbed the ball down the sideline, Rios played the ball so well that he looked like Goff’s intended receiver on the play. Rios picked off the pass and UCLA burned the final seconds remaining on the clock.

    If Goff had simply thrown the ball away, the Bears would’ve had another shot at getting the yards needed to attempt a game-winning field goal.

    Franklin frequently emphasizes a quarterback’s touchdown-interception ratio. If Goff’s ratio is 9-1, Franklin says they’ll be a championship caliber team. If his ratio is 7-1, they’ll be really good. If it’s 5-1, they’ll be slightly better than average. Any less than that and Cal will struggle to win.

    Last year, Goff’s ratio was exactly 5-1, as he tossed 35 touchdowns and seven picks. Cal went 5-7, missing out on a bowl game by just one win.

    Answer the critics

    Eventually, another issue will enter the conversation, as it does with every college quarterback coming out of a system other than a pro-style offense. It happened with Marcus Mariota this past year and it’ll happen with Goff whenever he declares.

    He never had to run a huddle. He never had to take a snap from under center.

    Franklin thinks those concerns are stupid.

    “Most little league coaches can teach it in about five minutes,” Franklin says.

    Furthermore, shotgun and spread concepts are utilized more and more in the NFL these days. This past May, Jared Dubin broke down just how much the NFL is transforming into a spread offense league. In the 2014 season, 80 percent of all snaps were taken in single and empty backfield formations, 59 percent of all snaps were taken with at least three wide receivers on the field, and 61 percent of all snaps were taken in the shotgun.

    I’m not sure if Franklin read Dubin’s article, but it sure sounded like he had.

    “It’s a joke,” Franklin says of those criticisms. “All it is, honestly, it’s for a bunch of guys that are NFL guys that want to talk about what it was like in 1931 when they played.”

    Dykes offered a similar answer.

    “I don’t how handing the ball off in the I-formation necessarily makes you a better quarterback at the next level,” Dykes says. “But people seem to believe that for some reason.”

    Goff also dismissed the notion.

    “I think that’s overdone a little bit,” Goff says. “I mean, Marcus Mariota was the second pick in the draft and plenty of people must have wanted him. And he was running the spread offense in college. There are plenty of examples. I could go on for days.”

    Stay present before the college career sunsets

    At this point, asking Goff if he’s turning pro is pointless. When I pose the question toward the end of our interview, he gives me the kind of answer you’d expect.

    “I’m not thinking about it at all,” Goff says. “I want to leave Cal with a winning legacy. I don’t want to be a quarterback that has all these stats but didn’t win a lot of games.”

    Speaking with his coaches and teammates won’t lead to any clear answers either. But when I ask Franklin about the freedom he now gives Goff at the line of scrimmage, he slips up.

    “Next year,” Franklin says, “whoever the quarterback is, probably won’t be doing that because they will have had hardly any experience.”

    Wait, so does that mean you think Goff is leaving?

    “I mean, obviously, we want what’s best for him, whatever that is,” Franklin says. “If he’s the first pick in the draft, then he’d be crazy to hang around here.” (Of note, our draft experts peg Goff as a top-5 pick in their latest mock drafts.)

    Franklin’s referring to Berkeley, where Goff made his college football debut two years ago under the lights of Memorial Stadium.

    “I’ll never forget the sunset that was going on,” Goff says. “The sunset was just incredible that day. It was crazy. Berkeley always has those, but that day in particular.”

    That night, only the result of the game was at stake. Now, when Goff leads the Bears onto the field, it’ll be more than just a win on the line. This fall, Goff begins his bid to be the first quarterback taken off draft boards this April. That is, if he opts to leave Cal for the NFL.

    “Man,” Lawler says after an evening of practice, grinning and shaking his head as he considers the possibility of playing his senior season without Goff. Directly in front of him, the sun begins to set over the stadium. “I hope not.”

    in reply to: Fisher Rams, run/pass percentages by year, sort of #42208
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    how was bradford in the pocket compares to goff?

    From what I gather Goff’s pocket sense is just highly refined and rates way up there.

    Bradford, to me, was up and down iffy with that. I thought he was better in the 2nd half of 2015 with the Eagles than he ever had been. But what people say about Goff when it comes to this ranks him really high. It’s one of his defining things.

    in reply to: qbs in the draft: Goff & Wentz #42206
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    Wentz, Goff lead deep quarterback class

    By Lance Zierlein

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000652690/article/2016-nfl-draft-wentz-goff-lead-deep-quarterback-class?campaign=tw-nf-sf24536685-sf24536685

    While the 2015 NFL Draft had bigger names at the top of the quarterback board in Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota, the 2016 class offers more overall potential and much greater depth in the middle rounds.

    Carson Wentz and Jared Goff have received a lion’s share of the pre-draft attention, but Paxton Lynch displayed flashes at his pro day, showing why he belongs inside the first round as well. This year’s group also contains productive SEC starters, a 2015 national champion, and the highest-ranked quarterback from the 2013 recruiting class.

    While NFL teams still like to find quarterbacks with experience in a pro-style attack, the reality is that fewer and fewer prospects will have that background. Size, poise, accuracy, and intelligence are still the positional traits that most teams will covet regardless of the scheme a quarterback comes from.

    Here’s a glance at the 2016 draft’s QB class:

    Teams with greatest need

    Cleveland Browns
    Dallas Cowboys
    San Francisco 49ers
    Los Angeles Rams
    Denver Broncos

    Top 5 players

    1. Carson Wentz: Still in developmental phase after just two years at an FCS program, but has the mental and physical building blocks of a future, franchise quarterback.

    2. Jared Goff: His accuracy and decision making will suffer from occasional lapses, but he displays the tools to become a good starting quarterback with time.

    3. Paxton Lynch: While he has the physical tools to start right away, a team who is willing to allow him to sit and study his craft for a year could reap maximum rewards in the future.

    4. Connor Cook: Cook flashes the potential of an NFL starter, but he has the makeup of game manager over playmaker.

    5. Christian Hackenberg: Hackenberg’s tools, intelligence and experience under center should make him an eventual starter, but his boom-or-bust potential could either get a coach an extension or fired.

    Sources Tell Us

    “Wentz really blew us away at the combine when we met with him. Talent is a big component, but these guys have to have intangibles if they are going to lead franchises, and he’s got them. I don’t care where he played, he understands the game and it isn’t too big for him.” — AFC team executive

    Most overrated

    Dak Prescott: I don’t agree with the masses when it comes to Prescott being the sleeper at the position. A sharp increase in his short game passing attempts helped to skew some of his data in a more favorable light, but there were still issues with some of his intermediate throws and with getting through his progressions. I love his size and football character, but I see him as a career backup, not as a starter in the NFL.

    Most underrated

    Jacoby Brissett: Brandon Allen could fit in here, but he’s getting more love nationally. Brissett gets the occasional side-eye before people move to the next quarterback, but that might be a mistake. Despite facing enormous pass rush for consecutive seasons, Brissett still found ways to fight through the pocket noise and make plays. He has NFL size, an NFL arm, and experience under center. With an ability to extend plays with his feet and throw on the move, Brissett offers a skill-set that matches up with what teams look for in today’s game.

    Boom or bust

    Christian Hackenberg and Cardale Jones: In many ways, these two quarterbacks are the same guy. Both quarterbacks have ideal NFL size and booming right arms that can leave your jaw agape. Of course, half the time your jaw is hitting the ground in awe while the other half it is hitting the ground because of their wild inaccuracy on the simplest throws. Accuracy issues are extremely difficult to correct, which creates a low floor for both, but the talent and traits give them “boom” potential.

    Sleeper alert

    Mike Bercovici: Sleep away, but Bercovici can sling the ball around the yard. He is small by NFL standards, but similar in size to Rams quarterback Case Keenum. Bercovici has Keenum’s quick release but a much bigger arm and the mobility to extend plays outside of the pocket. If he gets drafted at all, it will be late, but there is something there for an NFL quarterbacks coach to work with.

    Follow Lance Zierlein on Twitter @LanceZierlein.

    in reply to: Wagoner, mailbag 4/16-17 … parts 1 & 2 #42190
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    Exploring directions for Rams to go on Day 3 of draft

    Nick Wagoner

    http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-rams/post/_/id/28529/exploring-directions-for-rams-to-go-on-day-three-of-draft

    The NFL draft is almost here and the Los Angeles Rams are already making a splash after moving up to the No. 1 overall pick. We’re less than two weeks away from the draft, which means you have plenty of questions on the topic.

    As always, you can find me on Twitter @nwagoner and fire away with any Rams-related questions you might have. Please use hashtag #RamsMail so I can see them.

    On to your questions.

    black lemon ‎@lemonjii
    Q: what do you think rams will do with late picks (position wise)? do you think there is a want to trade back into day 2

    @nwagoner: To be sure, the Rams currently have a long, long wait before picking again after they use the No. 1 overall pick on their preferred quarterback. They went from having three picks on the draft’s second day to having none. Now they have two picks in the fourth round and two more in the sixth. Is that enough ammunition to potentially move back up into the third round? Sure. But I don’t see that as likely. Although some believe the Rams are just one player — specifically a quarterback — away from getting over the hump, this roster has more glaring holes in my opinion. They need help at receiver, tight end, kicker, safety and cornerback and could use some depth at linebacker and defensive tackle. So I would expect them to use those choices. In an ideal world, the Rams would be able to deal a player or two, such as quarterback Nick Foles, to add another pick or move up in a later round. They’d also be wise to keep an eye out for potential veterans who might become available for later picks, such as Brandon Marshall who went to the Jets a year ago.

    Benjamin Rosen ‎@benrosen_
    @nwagoner is there any way the Rams would make this trade without being 99.9% decided on one guy?


    @nwagoner: Absolutely not. I think it’d be awfully naive to think that they don’t know who they want with the top pick or that they’d give up what they did without having that nailed down. I also understand why they are keeping things a bit quiet on which quarterback they like. Let’s just play the smokescreen game real quick. Let’s say the Rams prefer Carson Wentz but believe Cleveland at No. 2 likes Jared Goff. If the Rams put it out there that they like Goff, perhaps it forces the Browns to give them something to move up a spot to get Goff and the Rams can recoup some of their draft capital and still get the guy they want. It’s a long shot but it’s worth trying. Since draft pick salaries are now slotted, there’s no benefit in terms of negotiations by putting out feelers for both quarterbacks, so the Rams might as well play it close to the vest and see what happens. Also, in case there’s some sort of unfortunate accident or off-the-field issue that crops up, it’s also wise to go ahead and wait. As GM Les Snead said, 90-plus percent of the “hay is in the barn” on the top pick. So the Rams know where they’re going. They just aren’t going to share that information yet.

    in reply to: Fallout from Rams-Titans trade for top pick #42189
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    Rams: What to make of the Wentz, Goff debate

    Vincent Bonsignore

    link: http://www.insidesocal.com/nfl/2016/04/17/rams-what-to-make-of-the-wentz-goff-debate/

    After doing a ton of radio interviews across the country in the aftermath of the Rams trade for the No. 1 pick in the draft, one of the more consistent questions I get is how could the Rams part with so many future draft picks to move to No. 1 if they haven’t yet decided between North Dakota State’s Carson Wentz or Cal’s Jared Goff?

    The implication being: You don’t give that much up without knowing already who you want to pick.

    I agree to an extent. And if you’re asking me today who the Rams are leaning toward I’d say it’s Wentz. There is a reason they moved all the way to No. 1 – and ahead of the Browns, who have been linked to Wentz. They obviously wanted to beat the Browns to the punch.

    That said, I think the bigger factor is that the Rams wanted to control the process.

    In other words, they wanted to be the team that decided who the best quarterback in the draft is – the quarterback they want to stake their future on – rather than wait on the Browns or anyone else who might have moved into the No. 1 slot to make that determination and force the Rams into a reactionary position.

    Had, say, the 49ers moved to No. 1 and taken Goff and the Browns taken Wentz at No. 2, the Rams would have been completely shut out of the two quarterbacks they believe can be Day One starters in the NFL.

    They were not going to sit back and allow that to happen. They could not afford to, given how solid the rest of the roster is and the need to plug in a quality quarterback to elevate the Rams from a competitive team to a playoff contender.

    By making the unprecedented jump from the 15th spot in the draft to No. 1, they eliminated all uncertainty and hope and chance of the process. And whether they are leaning toward Wentz or Goff or still undecided, they can now spend the next two weeks with the singular focus of reaffirming their position, or being convinced otherwise, or simply deciding who the best prospect is between Wentz and Goff.

    The point being, this is the Rams decision to make, and the Rams decision alone. And while it cost quite a bit to take control of that process, having possession of it far outweighs the cost when you consider the long-range implications.

    Avatar photozn
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    from off the net

    ==

    PaulButcher59

    Last month Casserly actually contacted 15 NFL club insiders whose teams don’t have a need for a quarterback and Wentz was preferred by a margin of 2 to 1.

    Avatar photozn
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    from off the net

    ==

    Rampage2K-

    Just got done watching a great one hour special on NFL Net dedicated to the drama of who the Rams should take.

    To sum it up in three words – can’t go wrong

    No wonder myself and most others on here are so confused on who we should take… Both of theses kids can play!!!

    The things that stood out about Goff were his pocket presence and poise, his quick release, smart and very accurate, also he played much higher competition level.

    Wentz on the other hand has a rocket arm, very smart, throws on the run better then most pros in the league right now, super athletic and highly competitive …I like how DJ compared him to Philip Rivers when it comes to getting fired up about the game and how he will lead from the jump.

    At the end of the show, just to add more confusion they were asked who it will be and who it should be.

    Kurt Warner loved Goff, and in my biased opinion, that holds a lot of weight … Says he is sick of the “higher ceiling” type argument and that he goes by what he sees and Goff is day one ready.

    DJ like Wentz, but thinks it will be Goff. Says Wentz athleticism and drive are going to carry over to the NFL

    Bucky says he likes Goff and says it will be Goff.

    If you get a chance to watch this check it out. Good stuff.

    Avatar photozn
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    One of the comparisons I like is that basically, Goff v. Wentz is like Ryan v. Roethlisberger.

    in reply to: qbs in the draft: Goff & Wentz #42176
    Avatar photozn
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    MMQB

    Inside the Film Room With… Jared Goff

    While he was on the wrong side of the scoreboard, the Cal quarterback showed the subtleties and savvy of a future franchise QB during last season’s loss at Stanford. Just weeks before the draft, he broke down the game film for The MMQB

    by Andy Benoit

    http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/04/12/jared-goff-california-film-study-nfl-draft

    to break down his college film.
    The Cal-Berkeley campus is a medley of Beaux Arts buildings, meandering creeks, foot bridges, stone paths and hippies of both old and modern ilk, all climbing up toward the Berkeley Hills. Nestled in there, right about where the Golden Gate Bridge becomes visible off in the distance, is Memorial Stadium. Inside are Cal’s football offices, where Jared Goff stops in on an early spring day.
    Goff, 21, has spent his life in the Bay Area sports scene. His father, Jerry Goff, played Major League Baseball from 1990 to ’96 and his mother Nancy, like Jerry, attended Cal. Coming out of Marin Catholic High, where he won three Marin County Athletic League championships, Jared Goff turned down scholarship offers from Stanford, Boise State and Fresno State to join the hometown Bears.
    And so it’s no surprise that the night before our visit, Goff, attending the Warriors-Pelicans game at Oracle Arena, was ambushed by fans chattering about the quarterback-needy 49ers, who hold the No. 7 pick in this year’s draft.
    Hometown factor aside, Goff to the Niners makes sense. After all, new coach Chip Kelly’s spread system is very similar to the one Goff ran under Sonny Dykes at Cal. But few are concerned about what offense Goff fits in. Though he comes from Cal’s newer-age spread, he exhibits all the traits of a prototypical dropback passer. And that’s how he sees himself. Asked if he could maybe be a part-time read-option QB, in the mold of say a Ryan Tannehill or an Alex Smith, he quickly says no, before pausing. “I mean, I’ll move around if I have to,” he says. “I’ll extend the play and run the ball if I need to. It’s not a preference, but I can do it.”
    What sets Goff apart is his handle on the crucial nuances of quarterbacking: moving gracefully and incrementally within the pocket; keeping eyes downfield when pressure bears down; and making throws with bodies around him. This, along with NFL-caliber arm strength and accuracy, was on full display in Cal’s game at Stanford last November. It was a loss for the Bears but a well-quarterbacked game that offered several scenarios Goff will encounter this fall and for the rest of his football life.
    Goff enjoys breaking down film. For the next hour, that’s what he does.
    * * *
    “This is a quads-left look.” Goff says. It’s the fifth play of the game and first that we watch. “We call this play 44 sucker, Z drag. So, we’re running that bubble trying to get them to jump on it with a pump fake—and they almost did. They were in good man coverage. I actually got their slot defender to jump it, but they had a safety over the top, so it was a kind-of dangerous throw. So I just checked it down.”

    http://cdn-s3.si.com/images/Goff-A.gif

    MORE AT THE LINK (WHICH IS FULL OF GIFS): http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/04/12/jared-goff-california-film-study-nfl-draft

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