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  • in reply to: King Arthur #45898
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    I liked Rothko’s stuff

    I have sat for many an endless moment in front of his paintings

    That’s one thing we all do have in common. We all like Rothko.

    in reply to: Tavon Austin will have a breakout season in 2016 #45895
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    Rams receiver Tavon Austin isn’t so sure about 100 catches this year, but the more touches the better

    Vincent Bonsignore, Los Angeles Daily News

    http://www.dailynews.com/sports/20160610/rams-receiver-tavon-austin-isnt-so-sure-about-100-catches-this-year-but-the-more-touches-the-better?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    OXNARD >> Given the full context, the slant pass Tavon Austin took to the house on Friday shouldn’t illicit more than a casual nod of approval.

    Like everyone else on the Rams organized team activity practice field, Austin was in shorts, jersey, cleats and helmet. Which tells you all you really need to know about the limited physicality during the 11-on-11 portion of practice.

    This was two-hand touch, NFL style.

    So digest the play as you will.

    The door you just heard open is the exit opportunity the pessimists will likely take advantage of right about now.

    The optimists might want to stick around a bit.

    See, by the time Austin made the catch just a few yards off the line of scrimmage, a group of defenders began converging on him. All it would have taken was one of them getting a good solid hand on Austin and the play would have been over.

    Never happened.

    A twitch here, a juke there and Austin was beyond the first couple of Rams defenders. Then a lean, a jab step and whoosh, he exploded past the second group on his way to open grass.

    In his wake, flailing arms, disbelieving looks and genuine frustration.

    And a chorus of oohhs and aahhs from his offensive teammates.

    In a very imperfect version of football, this was as legitimate an explosiveness play as you see.

    And it was Tavon Austin, defined.

    Get him the ball, by any means necessary and at any point on a football field, and let the havoc ensue.

    “The one thing we know about Tavon is, he’s a special playmaker,” said Rams offensive coordinator Rob Boras.

    Which is why the Rams have made it an objective to get Austin the ball more this year, a quest that began last season when Boras took over as offensive coordinator the last four games and has carried over during the offseason.

    “Any way you can get an explosive guy like that the ball, we’ve got to get creative and do it,” said Boras, who is concocting ways to do exactly that along with new Rams passing game coordinator Mike Groh.

    Rams head coach Jeff Fisher let that little nugget out of the bag a couple of weeks ago when he predicted Austin could double the 52 catches he had last year to 104 this season.

    “This offense has been re-designed to make sure he gets touches of the football,” Fisher said. “He’s going to have a big year this year.”

    Still, the 104 catches seems extraordinarily ambitious for a player who’s averaged 41 catches per season over his first three years. Especially with rookie Jared Goff likely to be the starting quarterback.

    If given the chance to explain, Fisher would probably amend his prediction to Austin doubling his offensive yardage production across the board.

    Not just through pass receptions.

    Austin did his best the throw Fisher a lifeline on that one Friday.

    “I don’t think he means 100 catches,” Austin said, smiling. “That’s hard to do. This is the NFL.”

    On the other hand, Austin isn’t about to quibble with the overall intent.

    “Anytime your coach says he wants to get the ball in your hands more, that’s great,” he said.

    Austin averaged 6.5 offensive touches per game last year, with 52 catches and 52 rushing attempts for a total of 907 yards and nine touchdowns.

    There is no question the Rams can jack that touch count up. Maybe not double it, but elevating it to 10 per game from the line of scrimmage not only gives him a better chance to produce the big yardage Fisher hopes for, but it also forces defensive coordinators to account for him so much he becomes almost as valuable as a decoy as he does with the ball in his hands.

    If the Rams establish Austin as an even bigger focal point, that means less focus on running back Todd Gurley and perhaps more space for fellow wide receivers to operate in.

    But mostly it means the ball in the hands of Austin more, and for an offense that scored the second-fewest points in the NFL last year and was among the worst in most other offensive categories, that is essential.

    The trick is figuring out creative ways to do that. Boras made it clear he is considering all options, so expect Austin to line up in a variety of different positions and for the ball to get in hands by all means available.

    “Obviously, as a receiver, everyone wants to talk about catches he gets. But we can line him up in the backfield as we’ve done in the past, we can get him the ball on the perimeter on screens and reverses,” said Boras.

    Austin is one of the most talkative Rams on the field, but admittedly quiet off it. Don’t expect him to make any demands one way or another.

    “However it happens, whatever they need me to do, I’ll do it,” Austin said. “But for the most part, I don’t pay too much attention to all the numbers.”

    in reply to: Player interviews: Randolph, Robinson, Marquez #45869
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    OTA One-On-One with Greg Robinson

    Rams reporter Dani Klupenger gets an update from offensive lineman Greg Robinson on the Rams offensive line through OTAs

    http://www.therams.com/videos/videos/OTA_OneOnOne_with_Greg_Robinson/4b29ce80-1279-4727-858e-17e01fa5a6f5

    in reply to: Mannion Taking Advantage of OTAs #45867
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    Mannion OTA Press Conference – 6/3

    Quarterback Sean Mannion talks about taking reps with the first team and his comfort level entering his second season.

    http://www.therams.com/videos/videos/Mannion-OTA-Press-Conference—63/d597a7b4-a187-4c12-a25c-7e54c61c9d23

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    I would rather have Keenum than those other QBs you listed.

    Keenum was asked to manage the game and not turn the ball over, just like every other Rams #2 I listed. Unlike all of the others, though, he did it a certain percentage better. For one thing he actually DIDN’T turn the ball over, and they could win games when he was at qb. The combined Rams record with all the other back-up qbs I listed — excluding Martin — is 12-23. The Rams do not have a winning percentage with any of those guys, though to be fair they were often playing in brutal circumstances (like Frerotte playing in the midst of the Great Unholy Rams OL Massacre of 2007.)

    With Martin it was 4-1, but then that was with the GSOT offense. With Keenum it was 3-2 without the GSOT offense.

    in reply to: contract extension talks for Fisher and Snead #45864
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    I like this for 2 reasons.

    1. My own take on the coaching I’ve said before…they managed to go 7-9 with a tough schedule while playing an inexperienced (plus Rams-style injured) OL and a qb who melted down like the wicked witch.

    2. It would be really insane to expect anything from a new coach in this situation, since he would be in between several facilities and a new stadium and just getting oriented itself would be a major battle. That is right now, no coach is better equipped to get a team to play in the middle of this kind of situation. He knows the situation, plus he has done it before.

    in reply to: Goff, 6/10 … vid #45863
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    I nominate Goff as the Rams player least likely to say “you know” a lot during interviews.

    I could have done without the questions about Harry Potter.

    Goff on Mannion: “Sean’s one of the smartest guys I’ve met playing football.”

    in reply to: Gregg Williams, 6/10 … vid #45861
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    This is good.

    Good listen.

    in reply to: Johnson collides with Rams WR, exits OTAs #45859
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    WAGONER: some of the guys that I heard the most to keep an eye on included safety Brian Randolph and defensive backs Jabriel Washington (who Rams linebacker Mark Barron vouched for from a brief overlap at Alabama) and Mike Jordan.

    Quotes on Mike Jordan:

    He can play both corner and safety and his versatility and ball skills will make him a hard man for Fisher to move on from as those are two things he loves.

    Missouri Western defensive back Mike Jordan, a consensus first-team All-American and one of the top D2 players in the country regardless of position. At 6-0, 200 pounds with a 4.60 40-yard dash, Jordan is a well-built DB prospect with good enough speed to play inside at nickel or as a safety, and showed that he has the ability to also play outside at the cornerback position, and play it really well…

    in reply to: Johnson collides with Rams WR, exits OTAs #45858
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    aid Joyner has played some CB and is doing well. The WRs complain about going against him in press coverage.

    Yeah I believe Joyner played some CB last year too.

    in reply to: Johnson collides with Rams WR, exits OTAs #45855
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    After Johnson, the Rams’ cornerback depth chart features E.J. Gaines, Coty Sensabaugh, and Lamarcus Joyner. They’re serviceable, but nowhere near No. 22’s talent.

    No there’s also Marcus Roberson and Troy Hill, and rookies Jabriel Washington and I believe Mike Jordan. So that’s 7 after Johnson.

    And Gaines is not behind Johnson, he’s the other starting CB.

    “Ramswire.” Right. How about “Rams sports blog not as good as an average message board.”

    in reply to: What is "conservatism," really? #45850
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    I recognize the conservatism of Nixon and Reagan because I grew up with it and I was part of that for a time.

    I don’t recognize any conservative ideology in current Republicanism

    William F Buckley in the early 60’s nearly single-handedly used the power of persuasion to cast out the Birchers and argue against anti-Semitism. Prior to Buckley, the Republican Party couldn’t have cared less about Israel. People don’t know that.

    The current rise of anti-Semitism can’t stand with those who support Israel (that came out more nationalistic than I meant it).

    In math, there are these problems: solve these equations with N number of variables and N unknowns. Interestingly, whereas in math, we can’t typically solve these if the number of variables is greater than the number of unknowns, in economics we can because they’re not pure unknowns.

    In the old days, even if you disagreed with the degrees or amount, the conservative solving of the equation dealt with the 3 variables, the poor, the middle class, and the rich.

    Now, it deals with the rich and the middle class are a symptom of dealing with the rich. It’s the poor people’s fault for being poor so they get no consideration. And we see this in lots of policy proposals recently that would never have been proposed in 1982.

    So instead of having variables X, Y, and Z, we have X, X1 (which will be a basic function relating to X like if X gets 100 units, X1 the cube root of that amount). There is no Y, because what the middle class gets is a function of what is given to the rich. And there is no Z. And unsurprisingly, this is a much easier equation to solve with plenty of wealthy people who like the solution.

    Elimination of unemployment insurance
    Elimination of workmans compensation
    Elimination of the minimum wage
    Elimination of Welfare

    This list goes on

    Now note that last one was accomplished by a center right corporatist Dem with a Republican House that realized that by having a DINO in the White House, they could actually swing farther to the right than if they had a figure held that would be held to account. And they did.

    Nixon gave us the EPA and nearly gave us a single payer health insurance system modeled on Kaiser Permanente… Which is actually MORE to the left than what Bernie Sanders was proposing, which is government paying for the private delivery of healthcare. THAT was a conservative idea THEN.

    To not acknowledge this is to not acknowledge the political road we’ve been traveling.

    One last thing. We hear about Conservative Dems or Blue Dog Dems. Remember when there were Liberal Republicans? There were! CA, MA and other typically liberal bastions birthed them, but also places like Wyoming where party was family.

    The Republican Party is no more the Party of Lincoln anymore than it is the Party of Reagan. Not in any measurable way.

    Conservatism has gone to far and needs to find its way back with ideas that affect everyone positively.

    Basically you’re talking about neo-liberal economics and its effects, right? Or no?

    in reply to: King Arthur #45835
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    I’m an artist, by blood and training. Both a visual artist and a poet. So “seeing” is essential to my way of seeing.

    And from all ages and times and places, there are those who make that same claim—and speak differently about all of it. The aesthetics, the experience, the value, the purpose, the means, everything. Another way to approach this, then, is to notice there are different ways to approach this (many claiming some sort of truth), and that taken all together, they amount to many different things.

    So for example the (commodified as a non-commodity) form of commodity you would advocate is still soaked in ideological imperatives and claims. That’s just inescapable.

    You speak well for your vision but to me it still is and will only ever be just that.

    If this were politics and not art, and we differed (which basically we don’t), that would be very apparent.

    In art, people often naturalize the camp they belong to, and make high claims for its value. It just means you can’t produce art without a vision. Doesn’t make one vision more true than others.

    I have been taken to task before by some for having what they thought of as exclusionary, museum taste. For example, I love 60s-90 avant garde jazz, everything from Coltrane to the Art Ensemble of Chicago. Some have said that’s too purist and removed. I don’t buy the objection. It doesn’t speak to my experience, and what I get from it.

    I have also been taken to task by some for having low-brow, mass-market taste. For example, I love George Miller’s 3 good road warrior films. I am told they are empty mass spectacle. I don’t buy the objection. It doesn’t speak to my experience, and what I get from it.

    But…and I am not alone, this too is a “thing”…I find different kinds of value in each. The objections are interesting but don’t hit home.

    You are making claims from a distinct position. You have to live that as truth, or it apparently doesn’t work. To me it’s the same as a conservative seeing conservatively. The difference being, in politics I am compelled to resist and counter that position from my own position. With art, I note that there are different visions, but I don’t have any need to “refute” them. To me they are just part of the mix of competing, different visions, and I like to wander between neighborhoods.

    And…===>

    Being a consumer doesn’t have to mean engulfing all before you, without discrimination.

    And it never does mean that. All that’s happening here is, you are homogenizing vast numbers of people (even tv execs know better than that) and not seeing into what/how they see these things. Besides, remember, if you take the theory of ideology seriously, there is no such thing as being outside it or beyond it. Therefore, the presumed discriminating cures for the presumably undiscriminating mass art forms will themselves be ideological, just in different ways. That’s why for example one generation saw Conrad as a heroic expose of imperialism and then the more recent generation sees him as a partial dissident within imperialism who unconsciously repeats many of the assumptions that were core to imperialism.

    So you will never find a way to convince me of the “truth” of your claims—not argument from authority, not the rhetoric of manifesto advocacy, none of it. I will always have in mind other, competing visions, all of which I will just simply see as visions.

    And you, my friend, should find nothing wrong with that. It’s just a different thing from your thing.

    ….

    in reply to: the FS battle…Bryant, Alexander, etc. #45826
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    from off the net

    ==

    max

    Christian Bryant picks off Goff. Go to the 2:35 mark to see it, OSU at Cal, 2013…

    in reply to: King Arthur #45824
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    We disagree here, too. I see it as a way to get much closer to one’s time and place, by differentiating between the crap for crap’s sake and the really good to great.

    Yeah that’s one of the arguments. You hear it a lot. I never bought it.

    I counter-claim that all types of art are capable of doing that. IF you approach them in that spirit.

    Works like this. In politics, people cannot help but see how they see. So to you, Obama was a classic conservative; to bnw he is a liberal. I SORT of “see the seeing” in that case but I am too invested…my vision is left of liberal, and I don’t really leave that, no matter how much I might try to stand outside it.

    With art, though, I am really capable of that remove. I am far from alone—this too is a “thing”—and so I really can see the different ways of seeing, without the siren’s call to belong.

    What I have found so many countless times that it is innumberable is that some things others from their own domain of taste, their way of seeing aesthetically, call either “crap” or “museum taste” actually contain something if you know how to look.

    So I don’t buy in. I see people who do buy in saying what they say, and to me it just sounds like a neo-liberal saying neo-liberalism is truth, or a centrist saying the center is truth, and so on. I see a WAY of seeing and talking about it. And I don’t feel compelled to belong. My own experience contradicts that way too much.

    You see yourself as a high-art advocate. And I see you seeing yourself as that. You see it as truth, and I still see it as a particular rhetoric of art experience, and as it happens, one among others.

    That will always be the case. I am not dismissing or disdaining your vision the way I would a neo-liberal’s vision in the realm of politics, but to me it is and will always remain one possible vision among others. Meanwhile, by training or temperament or experience, I really am much more an art consumer without borders. That;s not “superior” or “better,” but it is different.

    So I only see you speaking for a certain way of seeing and speaking. I don’t see it as “true.” I see it as one way among many others.

    in reply to: King Arthur #45814
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    I’m talking about commodity in the capitalist sense.

    Yes but the commodity as a form pre-exists capitalist economies. And, pre-capitalist modes of commodification co-exist within the era of capitalist markets. So the fact that art includes a heavy element of just sheer craftsmanship. That;s always true.

    The whole idea of the “mass market” as merely a thoughtless pleasure of the masses, actually, IS a capitalist-era ideology. It is meant to disdain “the masses.” As such that view follows in the wake of earlier views which simply disdained popular cultural forms generally (like carnival, or popular music and the ballad, and so on.) Meanwhile, I have very quirky tastes–something I embrace as it happens—and so I am pleased by the interesting energies of some novels and films some others regard as “mere commodities.”

    See I don’t make those divisions. I notice that they don’t always hold up. That really what we get is a mishmash of different, sometimes mutually oblivious markets. I personally like to be (to echo a phrase) an art consumer without borders.

    My thinking is, there’s all kinds of ways to do things, and I like to be open to surprises. An interesting example of this is television. As a rule, people are so used to thinking of tv as degraded mass spectacle, that they cannot even tell you what peculiar aesthetic strengths belong pretty much exclusively to tv type narratives. People will enjoy tv, but in their own minds dismiss that pleasure, and what they will LIKE about TV will turn out to be among the things that are unique to the medium. But then they won’t be able to name those things…as if they didn’t exist. And you want to know how quirky this gets? Having said all that, I am not a tv guy. I will Tivo certain things…rarely tv shows in the ordinary sense (usually tv documentaries)…and when friends talk about the shows they like, I don’t even know about them. So someone who really doesn’t watch tv just said televisual narratives have unique aesthetic properties you tend not to find in other media (like film or prose fiction or stage drama).

    I never bought the “real art” argument. To me that’s a regime of taste. It is meant to quixotically distance the people who buy into it from their own time and place and culture and history.

    And that is said by someone who is married to a woman who made a living much of her life playing classical music for a living in europe. In fact she played opera. Something I rightfully admire.

    Honestly, I am among those who SEES there are (and always have been) competing and different regimes of taste and does not really belong to any of them.

    But I don’t think of myself as shallow. I also don’t think of myself as “deep.”

    in reply to: King Arthur #45809
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    The vast majority of movies are not art. They are a commodity. “Troy” is a commodity.

    We agree on that. See, WV? More common ground!!

    All art is a commodity. Or rather that is one of the things it is. It has different kinds of value and cost attached to it, and is traded for things or money or status or prestige or all of the above.

    But taste? That can differ. Within a given range, people have different experiences and like different things. My view is that there will always be different tastes. Some create exclusionary domains of taste which are then supposed to “reflect character.” Some just note that there are always different domains of taste…and leave it at that.

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    When all is said and done, including replacing a roster spot, the Rams save virtually no money, but they would receive a draft choice. imo

    That’s what I thought.

    So the article (above) is wrong.

    in reply to: contract extension talks for Fisher and Snead #45798
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    JEFF FISHER AND LES SNEAD DISCUSSING EXTENSIONS WITH L.A. RAMS.

    Jeff Fisher and Les Snead haven’t lead the Los Angeles Rams to the playoffs yet, but they’ve done enough to earn new contracts with the team. It’s important to have continuity.

    http://www.nbcsports.com/video/category/206

    in reply to: King Arthur #45796
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    . It’s the complete rejection of 2700 years of plot line that pisses me off. Not “change,” per se. But the trashing of the original in the process.

    Well…I don’t see changing as trashing it. I just respond to all that differently.

    Take history. I like, in a rather unsophisticated pure pleasure way, Brit historical dramas. The King’s Speech. Elizabeth. The Queen. Rob Roy. The Madness of King George.

    I don’t know if you enjoy those at all, but I do. And they absolutely MASSACRE history.

    Sometimes it’s subtle, sometimes it’s so flagrant I laugh out loud in the theater. For example, in Elizabeth, it is set up so it looks like Walsingham poisons Mary Queen of Scots in Scotland. When her death is revealed, I just couldn’t help laughing (actually Mary was executed for treason by Elizabeth’s advisors, and she was in their hands because she was living in exile in England). Anyway here’s this shocking moment in the film, we discover the elegant and noble Mary dead, and I am the only person in the theater laughing.

    In The King’s Speech, it;s more subtle–Churchill backs George and supports him in the face of Edward’s abdication. Actually Churchill supported Edward and argued publicly against abdication.

    I register all those things, but in the end, it doesn’t detract from my pleasure in that kind of film. In fact it’s kind of interesting to notice the ways the filmmakers think they have to alter history.

    That’s an analogy but it does kind of speak for how I see all this. So I just think we approach all this in completely different ways.

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    If the Rams were able to find a trade partner, they would pick up $6.75 million in cap space and just $2 million in dead money. Although, Cole says teams may be reluctant to trade a draft pick for him at this point in time.

    Is this true? The trade partner would pick up a guaranteed and already paid roster bonus? That doesn’t sound right. I thought whoever traded for him would just have 0.75 M on their cap with him.

    ..

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    Jared Goff continues to impress at Rams workouts

    By Gary Klein

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/la-sp-rams-ota-20160608-snap-story.html

    The rookie quarterback calmly surveyed the defense, took the snap and looked for receivers amid the pass rush before tucking the ball and scrambling into the end zone for a touchdown.

    It was one of the final plays of the Rams’ workout Wednesday, and Jared Goff continued to show something new.

    That has been the theme through five organized team activities practices in Oxnard, where the No. 1 pick in the NFL draft continues to progress.

    Goff was not made available to reporters Wednesday, but coaches and teammates said that despite expected miscues, the rookie has impressed during the noncontact practices.

    “I can’t wait till he gets it all down,” cornerback Trumaine Johnson said. “He’s learned the playbook fine. Once he gets comfortable, the sky is the limit for him.”

    As he did in previous workouts, Goff had a few passes intercepted. But he also connected with receivers on several difficult throws, including one to undrafted free agent Nelson Spruce for a touchdown.

    Coach Jeff Fisher praised Goff’s ability to bounce back.

    “Jared saw a couple things out here that he hadn’t seen before, and the ball ends up in the defensive players hands,” Fisher said. “The best thing … was he walks in the huddle and goes, ‘Hey, that was on me. Let’s go to the next play and we’ll go on.’

    “He doesn’t dwell on things.”

    Goff also seeks feedback.

    Receiver Pharoh Cooper, a fourth-round draft pick, said Goff consults with him after bad plays to review coverages or quickly review why a play broke down.

    “That’s kind of good things you notice in him, just trying to build his leadership,” Cooper said.

    Goff, like many new players, is struggling at times because “there’s a lot of thinking going on,” offensive coordinator Rob Boras said.

    “There’s going to be good and bad,” he said. “It’s just don’t make the same mistake twice.”

    Boras knew Goff’s skill set from studying him on film. The coach is learning other parts of the quarterback’s makeup.

    “We all heard how competitive he is — and you feel it,” Boras said, adding, “We knew the ability he has as a passer. It’s just kind of undressing those other things.”

    Goff, Cooper and other drafted rookies are expected to sign contracts Thursday, a person with knowledge of the situation said.

    Rookie contracts are slotted, so Goff’s contract will slightly exceed the four-year, $26.7-million deal that No. 2 pick Carson Wentz signed with the Philadelphia Eagles. Wentz’s deal included a $17.6-million signing bonus.

    Stedman Bailey update

    Receiver Stedman Bailey cleared waivers and will be placed on the Rams’ non-football injury list.

    Bailey, who is recovering from gunshot wounds to the head suffered last November, has not been cleared for football activities and will not play this season.

    “As I’ve said numerous times, he’s lucky to be alive,” Fisher said. “I’m so impressed he’s gotten back into shape and is willing to play. But there really, at this point, is no medical research that will permit him to play.”

    Bailey still will have a role with the Rams, Fisher said.

    “I’m going to be selfish and try to bring him over on the coaching side,” he said, adding, “There’s a lot of work behind the scenes that needs to be done, so we’ll put him behind a desk and bring him out on the field and see how he likes it.”

    Quick hits

    Quarterback Dylan Thompson, who signed this week, practiced for the first time. Thompson played with Cooper at South Carolina. “We had a couple good plays,” Cooper said, grinning.

    in reply to: Mannion Taking Advantage of OTAs #45775
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    Mannion just won’t go away in QB race.

    Jeff Smith

    Sean Mannion just won't go away in the Rams QB race

    Remember around, say, a week ago, when many were assuming that quarterback Sean Mannion would be in the mix as a player who the Los Angeles Rams may very well choose to part ways with?

    Yeah, that doesn’t seem quite as likely anymore.

    After another day of OTAs for the Rams on Tuesday, much of the talk was about how rookie QB Jared Goff struggled at times throughout the session. What many people weren’t talking about? How apparently impressive Mannion was all day long.

    Fortunately, offensive coordinator Rob Boras made sure to send plenty of praise in the direction of Mannion, per Vincent Bonsignore of the Los Angeles Daily News:

    While Goff may be struggling to early on in the offseason, there’s little reason to freak out just yet. Mannion may be slowly working his way up the depth chart as well, but there’s zero reason to believe that he has any chance to overtake Goff.

    But Mannion supplanting Case Keenum? That may be a conversation worth having.

    in reply to: time to take the political compass poll again #45774
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    Joe Mad

    Ah.

    A right-wing fanatic.

    Welcome to the board, Mr. Limbaugh.

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    To me, that sort of rigidity is a problem and deters progress

    No it’s not. No it doesn’t. Everything’s fine. If there were any REAL evidence for your position, someone would have written an article by now.

    in reply to: King Arthur #45767
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    You don’t like The White Album, Abbey Road and their last album, The Beatles?

    You are one twisted spinal cracker, without his mojo filter.

    ;>)

    Then there’s this:

    So I get that. I just don’t get change for change’s sake, especially when the original is much better and more powerful (Homer, Aeschylus, Virgil, etc.)

    Well, we are talking about cinema. Cinema is not written literature. They are different animals. Their historical contexts are different. Re-imagining from one medium and era to another is fine with me. I actually didn’t mind Troy at all and personally didn’t get the complaining about it. (Well except for Brad Pitt. But then he’s good in other things and he handled their version of Achilles’s death very nicely.)

    Cinema can’t be lit and vice versa.

    But who are we to tell directors they can’t be interested in trying?

    Here’s a good example. The film version of the Wizard of OZ completely changes the story, to its core (including subtracting the fact that in the books, Oz is real, while in the movie, they made it a dream). In many ways they are nothing like one another. But then that also means they are just different things.

    I don’t compare them. To me, the movie stands on the fact that for reasons no one could ever possibly explain, Margaret Hamilton’s hammy over-drawn hag portrayal of the Wicked Witch is just one of the great iconic character creations in all of movies.

    And then there’s the musical Wicked.

    I say, let art throw as much mud at the walls as it can. We know from history that a lot of it sticks.

    As for the Beatles? Whenever someone speaks of the Beatles I go into a dream.

    ,

    in reply to: King Arthur #45764
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    We don’t disagree about what artists have done through the years, centuries, millennia. Yes, there is endless recreation, recombining, alteration to go with the creation. That is a part of the deal, the process, the making of art. I think where things went off-track is that I did take your comments as totalizing. They did strike me as “you’re wrong. I’m right. That’s a fact, Jack, and there is no other way to look at this.”

    Where we agree: yes artists have always done that. The empirical part.

    Where we disagree: The opinion part. I openly said I don’t mind that fact (and also said I don’t personally like the other view). That was not a right/wrong thing…it can’t be. I was expressing an attitude toward a controversy. That could not possibly be an “I am right/you are wrong” thing–it was openly stated as an opinion: I don’t mind that kind of thing, even when it comes to movies re-doing old written literature. I did say I thought the other view was stuffy, but that too was openly expressed as an opinion. Just my own feelings about it.

    I am not leading a crusade, I am just drinking in my rocking chair and going “enh I never did like them long-haired beatles songs.” If you go “I do!” it’s fine. But I don’t.

    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I probly dont worry ‘quite’ as much about him as most leftist
    cause i know the system wont let him do a lot of what he wants to do.

    That’s what they used to say at first in Maine about LePage.

    People don’t say that anymore.

    You would be amazed at how much someone can do. And get away with.

    ==============
    I know that is your thing, but Trump is not Lepage,
    and the Nation is not Maine. So, while i see the analogy,
    i also dont quite see the ‘sameness’ to it.

    I mean why do you think Trump is Lepage and Lepage is Trump? Why?

    w
    v

    The idea I am responding to is, there is only so much damage one of those can do. They would get limited. What I am saying is….that’s just not my experience. They can do and DO do all sorts of things without being checked. I don’t just assume that could happen at the national level, I know that can happen at the national level. So I don’t need the LePage example (other than what it feels like to live under the government of a right-wing demagogue.) I can point to Reagan and talk about things like Iran-contra. They did what they wanted and even when called on it, the public censure accomplished nothing and did not un-do the damage they had done.

    It all amounts to this—and it’s opinion so take it or leave it, but–I think it;s wishful thinking to say that there’s only so much Trump could actually do as a president. Pointing to our experience here with LePage is just one among many ways of saying that; and pointing to that also underscores the depth of my emotional response to all this. I have seen harm that people once told me would not come about. It did. My own experience, even knowing better beforehand so I SHOULDN’T have been surprised, was that I was regularly amazed at what these guys can do and get away with. That is very vivid to me. It has real direct influence over my take on the presidential election.

    I also keep saying I can’t make that a platform for others. It has always been offered as describing why I personally see things the way I do. Or at least that’s the intent. I don’t know if I stuck to it well enough but that’s the intent.

    in reply to: King Arthur #45756
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Not going by “argument from authority.” Was responding to your insistence that you know what art is,

    That particular way of putting it is all in your head BT. There was no “insistence” of any kind. And no one said they “know what X is” in a general unqualified way. What I actually said is that art (in general, not in every instance) has always picked up on, altered, reconfigured, re-imagined, re-cast, and so on, prior art…and that’s an empirical claim that is just accurate. You took that to mean individual x claims to know “what art is,” as opposed to just an ordinary empirical/historical statement about one thing that has always happened.

    I described something that has always happened, and gave my attitude toward that. What I said at the empirical level is just true (though it’s not, as you apparently took it, a philosophical claim about what the whole of art IS. That particular historical statement is not totalizing.) As for the personal attitude toward that fact—I said I don’t mind that, regardless of the form it takes. Just a strong opinion and openly marked as such. So in terms of my expressing my opinion and attitude, it was all marked by opinion qualifiers.

    What I don’t like is the “reverence for originals” approach. To me it’s stuffy.

    I have no problem whatsoever with a cinematic version of xyz because a cinematic version of xyz does not subtract from, deny access to, or supplant the original.

    They’re just different things. Which is absolutely fine with me.

    Where I disagree is that I don’t think the fact that that is always happening means the later guys have to stay clear of what the earlier guys did

    In terms of the opinion part, yes we see it differently but I never really said it was more than that.

    In terms of the empirical part…yes things get re-written and re-imagined all the time. That is just something that has always happened. That’s just true. (Which again is not a totalizing claim about what art IS. I made no such claim.)

    Are we more in line now? We have different views on this and that’s all I ever really said.

    in reply to: King Arthur #45748
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    ZN, again, I’m an artist, from a family of artists. I know what art is, what it does, where it comes from

    And I am an historian of art and so I speak to what it has always done.

    As long as we’re going to revert to the “argument from personal authority” move.

    Art has always, among other things, picked up and re-done prior art. It just has. You personally may not like that, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, because it always has. Heck for that matter homer is not the “original author” of the troy stories, and many shakespeare plays are re-written versions of other plays, when they aren’t re-written versions of other plays (and tales) that were themselves taken from ovid. Who himself (ovid) was not the originator of most of HIS stuff.

    It is just a thing that happens.

    And we can do 2 things about it.

    One is declare a canon of taste about how we’re “supposed” to feel about that.

    And another is my way. See what actually has happened in all its diversity, and just embrace the whole thing for what it is.

    You will never approach it my way, probably, but then what I see in your way is A way…not THE way.

    There have always been competing doctrines, canons, ideas of art. That’s part of art. Always has been and always will be. In the middle of all that some take sides. Some don’t.

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