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  • Avatar photowv
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    There were quite a few articles on Trump supporters and their views on race, gay people, Muslims and so on, throughout his campaign.

    Here’s one of them:

    Measuring Donald Trump’s Supporters for Intolerance

    It’s stunning to think so many of his supporters thought the slaves shouldn’t have been freed; love the confederate flag; want all gay people banned from America, along with Muslims, etc. etc.

    —————-
    Well he seems to have picked up the David Duke supporters. The angry white racist crowd.

    But Trump is not David Duke. He’s somethin different. But he’s got that streak in him, looks like.

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    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    wiki continued, fwiw. Kinda funny seeing all the ways he’s described. Like an inkblot test:

    Trump is a protectionist, according to free-market advocate Stephen Moore and conservative economist Lawrence Kudlow.[25]

    Scales and rankings

    Crowdpac

    In 2015, Crowdpac gave Trump a ranking of 0.4L out of 10L. In 2016, Crowdpac gave Trump a ranking of 5.1C out of 10C, shifting Donald Trump more to the conservatism spectrum.[26]

    On the Issues

    The organization and website On the Issues has classified Trump in a variety of ways over time: as a “moderate populist” (2003);[27] a “liberal-leaning populist” (2003-2011);[28] a “moderate populist conservative” (2011-2012);[29] a “libertarian-leaning conservative” (2012-2013);[30] a “moderate conservative” (2013-2014);[31] a “libertarian-leaning conservative” (2014-2015);[32] a “hard-core conservative” (2015);[33] a “libertarian-leaning conservative” (2015-2016);[33][34] and a “moderate conservative” (2016–present).[35]

    Economic policy…

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The Wiki article on Trump is excellent, I’d say. Not that I’ve read it. But it looks like its worth reading.

    Here’s the beginning of it:

    Trump’s political positions are widely viewed as populist.[8][9] Among academics, political writers, and pundits, Trump and his politics have been classified in greater detail, but in varying ways.

    Liberal economist and columnist Paul Krugman disputes that Trump is a populist, arguing that his policies favor the rich over those less well off.[10] Harvard Kennedy School political scientist Pippa Norris has described Trump as a “populist authoritarian” analogous to European parties such as the Swiss People’s Party, Austrian Freedom Party, Swedish Democrats, and Danish People’s Party.[11] Political satirist and columnist Walter Shapiro and political commentator Jonathan Chait describe Trump as authoritarian.[12][13] Conservative commentator Mary Katharine Ham characterized Trump as a “casual authoritarian,” saying “he is a candidate who has happily and proudly spurned the entire idea of limits on his power as an executive and doesn’t have any interest in the Constitution and what it allows him to do and what does not allow him to do. That is concerning for people who are interested in limited government.”[14] Charles C. W. Cooke of the National Review has expressed similar views, terming Trump an “anti-constitutional authoritarian.“[15] Libertarian journalist Nick Gillespie, by contrast, calls Trump “populist rather than an authoritarian”.[16]

    Legal experts spanning the political spectrum, including many conservative and libertarian scholars, have suggested that “Trump’s blustery attacks on the press, complaints about the judicial system and bold claims of presidential power collectively sketch out a constitutional worldview that shows contempt for the First Amendment, the separation of powers and the rule of law.”[17] Law professors Randy E. Barnett, Richard Epstein, and David G. Post, for example, suggest that Trump has little or no awareness of, or commitment to, the constitutional principles of separation of powers and federalism.[17] Law professor Ilya Somin believes that Trump “poses a serious threat to the press and the First Amendment,” citing Trump’s proposal to expand defamation laws to make it easier to sue journalists and his remark that Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos will “have problems” if he is elected president.[17]

    Republican opinion journalist Josh Barro terms Trump a “moderate Republican,” saying that except on immigration, his views are “anything but ideologically rigid, and he certainly does not equate deal making with surrender.”[18] MSNBC host Joe Scarborough says Trump is essentially more like a “centrist Democrat” on social issues.[19] Journalist and political analyst John Heilemann has characterized Trump as liberal on social issues,[20] while conservative talk radio host and political commentator Rush Limbaugh says that Heilemann is seeing in Trump what he wants to see.[21]

    Trump is nativist in the opinion of Washington Post editorial page editor Fred Hiatt.[22] Conservative writer and editor Rod Dreher, a Trump opponent, writes that the term “nativist” is laden with negative connotations and is typically used as a pejorative;[23] Rich Lowry, the editor of National Review, instead calls Trump an “immigration hawk” and supports Trump’s effort to return immigration levels to a historically average level.[24]…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Avatar photowv.
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Trump on Waterboarding, fwiw:

    ===================================
    In December, Trump started demanding that the US target the families of ISIS members in addition to “bombing the sh*t” out of the terrorist organization. He went further in February, advocating for torture as a method of interrogation.

    “I would bring back waterboarding, and I’d bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding,” Trump declared in the February debate just ahead of the New Hampshire primary. Calls for bringing torture back became a regular applause line at rallies, despite the likelihood that both of these ideas would require the American military to obey orders that violate international laws and federal anti-torture statutes.

    Pressed at a debate on March 3 over whether the American military would obey his order to violate international laws and the Geneva Convention to do such things, Trump insisted they’d listen to him, despite condemnation from military leaders and conservatives.

    “Frankly, when I say they’ll do as I tell them, they’ll do as I tell them,” he said.

    2. The military shouldn’t break the law, after all.

    He then reversed this position the very next day, on March 4, in a statement to the Wall Street Journal, saying he “will not order military or other officials to violate those laws and will seek their advice on such matters.”

    3. The laws forbidding torture should be changed so no one has to break them.

    Not long after terrorist attacks in Brussels killed at least 28 people and injured dozens more on March 22, Trump called in to CNN to expand on his call to legalize waterboarding.

    “Look, I think we have to change our law on the waterboarding thing, where they can chop off heads and drown people in cages, in heavy steel cages and we can’t water board,” Trump told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer. “We have to change our laws and we have to be able to fight at least on almost equal basis.”

    When Blitzer reminded Trump that military leaders don’t support torture and that it violates international agreements that the United States has signed, Trump called opposition to torture a “political decision.”

    “I would say that the eggheads that came up with this international law should turn on their television and watch CNN right now, because I’m looking at scenes on CNN right now as I’m speaking to you that are absolutely atrocious,” Trump said. “And I would be willing to bet, when I am seeing all of the bodies laying all over the floor, including young, beautiful children laying dead on the floor, I would say if they watched that, maybe, just maybe they’ll approve of waterboarding and other things.”

    Current position: Trump says he’s against violating international laws or ordering others to do so, but wants to change the laws to legalize, at minimum, waterboarding.
    http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-donald-trump-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Avatar photowv.
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    He does focus a lot on an issue that does not affect WV much, and i dont follow the issue much: Immigration.

    ====================================
    Trump released a comprehensive policy plan for immigration reform — something many other Republican candidates have yet to do.

    In it, Trump lays out what he plans to do…Most notably, the plan promises widespread deportation, including the “mandatory return of all criminal aliens,” or undocumented immigrants who have been convicted of crimes.

    “We’re going to keep the families together, but they have to go,” he said on Meet the Press. Neither in his interview nor in the plan, however, did Trump say how this would be accomplished.

    Trump’s plan said that he would end what’s known as birthright citizenship, which guarantees citizenship to almost all people born within U.S. borders, regardless of the legal status of their parents. That right is guaranteed under the 14th Amendment. A number of other Republican candidates have also expressed support for this idea, including New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, Sen. Rand Paul, and Sen. Lindsey Graham.

    As for border security, Trump doubled down on his pledge to have Mexico build and pay for an enormous wall across the border. Under the Trump administration, the U.S. would impose various penalties on the Mexican government and its officials until it agreed to build and pay for the wall.

    “Mexico must pay for the wall and, until they do, the United States will, among other things: impound all remittance payments derived from illegal wages; increase fees on all temporary visas issued to Mexican CEOs and diplomats (and if necessary cancel them); increase fees on all border crossing cards — of which we issue about 1 million to Mexican nationals each year (a major source of visa overstays); increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico (another major source of overstays); and increase fees at ports of entry to the United States from Mexico [Tariffs and foreign aid cuts are also options].”

    Under Trump’s plan, businesses would be required to hire “American workers first”; monetary penalties would be increased for people who overstay their visas; and the J-1 visa jobs program, which allows kids from other countries to participate in things like summer exchange programs, would be terminated. Trump’s plan also calls for tripling the number of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers, which are in charge of enforcing immigration laws.

    The plan may be difficult to implement. Many of the initiatives, such as tripling the number of ICE officers, would require huge increases in federal funding — increases that would most likely have to be approved by Congress.

    Interestingly, the most frequent source Trump cites to back up the ideas in his plan is the right-wing news site Breitbart News. At least six of the conservative site’s articles are linked to in Trump’s plan, far more than any other source. Trump has done numerous exclusive interviews with the site, which on Sunday reported that his immigration plan would “get Americans back to work.”

    Donald Trump Just Released An Actual Policy Plan

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Avatar photowv.
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well there’s been five posts so far — six including mine — and no-one has said anything about actual real Trump POLICIES. I dont think thats an accident.

    Reagan got elected by being vague on real, actual policies. He just kinda tapped into…somethin…’shining cities on hills’ and stuff.

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    in reply to: time to take the political compass poll again #45661
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Anyway, back to my point — which was NOT about what ‘label’ we arbitrarily chose — the point is, do you understand that we are NOT Democrats. And do you understand that there are such things as “leftists” (or whatever label u want to use) who cant stand Obama, Clinton, the Republicans and the rest of the “system” politicians. Do you get that? Not lecturing here, just asking if you get that?

    WV, I think you’re asking too much from “conservatives,” who really aren’t conservatives anymore. They’re right-wing radicals. The current American iteration is well to the right of the Reagan conservative, and they keep moving to the right. They pretty much do this each time the Dems stake out more of their old territory — which is constant — and feel the need to always and forever be to their right. The Dems are now planted firmly on the center-right, own it, after it was vacated by Republicans. The Republicans have in turn purged their ranks of the old guard, the Eisenhower Republicans, etc. . . . even the McCain of 2000 version.

    This new breed of faux-conservative has been brainwashed to unprecedented degrees for forty years, and pretty much everything is the End of the World!!! for them. The slightest move from the Federal government means the Apocalypse is nigh. Reagan played into this with his talk about Medicare meaning the total end of all freedom for Americans. And with Obama? A year before he took office, you had large numbers of Republicans thinking he was the anti-christ. That number is roughly 25% now. Majorities believed he was foreign-born, a Muslim, a secret agent sent to destroy America, a Marxist, socialist, bogeyman, etc. etc.

    They were fed this nonsense 24/7 by hate radio, their churches, and their reps, and it’s never stopped. This is why they can never see Obama for what he is — a true conservative, an pre-Reagan Republican. They’ve been told for years and years that he was, quite literally, the devil, that he “palled around with terrorists,” that he’s a Muslim secret agent, blah blah blah.

    So they’re just never going to see how lucky they were that he was elected. They got an actual conservative in office, who implemented actual conservative policies, most of them falling waaaaay short, which was to be expected. But who gets the blame? “The left.” Even though Obama implemented center-right government. They couldn’t have written a better script.

    And while you’re obviously, self-evidently correct about the massive gulf between leftists and Obama, if you spend any time on “conservative” websites or websites with large participation by “conservatives,” it’s pretty much an article of faith among them that Obama is “far left,” as are the Dems in generally. They simply believe in the myths, legends and propaganda handed down to them from hate radio, the Birchers, the religiously wrong, the Randians and so on. Now, bnw may not be like his peers, but I haven’t seen any evidence that he differs from them on this issue. He thought it was absurd when I said Obama has governed as a conservative — which he has — and I don’t think he’ll ever understand that the Republican party is no longer conservative in the slightest. It’s a radical, far-right party now. The Dems are now the true conservatives in America.

    —————–
    Well, i dunno. I really dont know much about the Republicans anymore.
    You might be right. Or left. I dunno. 🙂

    At any rate, I like having bnw around. I like the idea of trying to converse,
    trying to understand, trying to find common political ground once in a while,
    and trying to find ‘human’ common ground where it…can be found.

    I just aint into ‘arguing’ anymore. That’s just me. I’m too old now, for that 🙂
    Really, just too old for it.

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    in reply to: MSM aflutter over new law #45660
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Yup. I agree with all that, basically.

    …on the test though, if ya make it too long
    people like me wouldn’t take it. Too busy, attention span too short, etc.

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    in reply to: Goff the Week 1 Starter? #45654
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I dont think anyone CAN know at this point.
    Cause Fisher doesn’t know at this point.

    Just depends on how Goff and Keenum (and Mannion?) play in pre-season.

    And….just to throw in more weirdness — what if Mannion outplays
    the other two 🙂

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    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    When they said “the lesser of two evils” and “hold your nose and vote”,
    I don’t think people who casually support Hillary have any idea how bad she is.

    She’s Obama without the charm, heart, and humanity and with loads more personal ambition.

    I cringe at the thought of that first White House Correspondents Dinner…
    &
    I’ve got some kind of worrisome head cold and I’d rather have that than watch Hillary try to be funny for 15 minutes…

    —————————

    Yup. This is going to be ugly beyond belief.

    Both are going very negative… and we’ll be lucky if we survive it 🙂

    Weirdly, both will be right about the other. Thats the thing.
    They both have plenty of ACCURATE VALID mud to sling. Both are total-loathsome-weasels.
    Both.

    The Billionaire-lying-racist-demogogue vs the Millionaire-lying-warmongerer.

    And millions and millions and millions of american citizens are gonna walk
    into the polls, and happily vote for one or the other. And they dont have to. But they will — cause they dont want to….”waste their vote”.

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    in reply to: time to take the political compass poll again #45645
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I remember it wasn’t that long ago when your lefties here were more self identified as “progressives”..

    —————–
    Well, this small group of leftists has been calling itself ‘leftists’ for about a decade now, but ‘progressives’ is fine with me. Its just a label.
    I dont really care what label is used, leftist, progressive, far-left, radical, libertarian-socialist, tree-hugging-green-commie-pinko, Peoples-democratic-Iconoclasts-and-Organic-Gardening-Club…. The ‘name’ doesn’t matter.

    Some of us had a discussion about it many years ago, and kinda hashed out what name made the most sense. We bandied about some labels. Some folks thot ‘liberal’ made sense, but then we thot liberal made us sound like Democrats, which we definitely are NOT. So, ‘leftist’ seemed a nice semi-vague, label for “way to the left of the Democrats”.

    Anyway, back to my point — which was NOT about what ‘label’ we arbitrarily chose — the point is, do you understand that we are NOT Democrats. And do you understand that there are such things as “leftists” (or whatever label u want to use) who cant stand Obama, Clinton, the Republicans and the rest of the “system” politicians. Do you get that? Not lecturing here, just asking if you get that?

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    in reply to: time to take the political compass poll again #45625
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I decided that I’m not only going to vote for Dr Jill Stein, but I’m gonna donate enough to get a t-shirt so I can wear it around town.

    Do Greenies make cool Tees? I’ll wear a whack Tee, but it’d obviously be better if it were cooler.

    ——————–
    Yeah, after the Calif result, I guess its time i took down my Bernie sign, and made a big green Jill sign.

    Maybe I’ll get a Tee shirt too. Or maybe I’ll just get some green textile paint
    and a white shirt and make my own. Maybe have a green paint party.

    bnw has to be loving this — we’re gonna get Trump elected, LoL.

    Well, so be it.

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    • This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Avatar photowv.
    in reply to: time to take the political compass poll again #45624
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    … Romney wasn’t a conservative either. To someone as far away from the center as you Obama and Romney appear conservative but not to a conservative voter.

    —————-
    Well the leftists here agree — Obama has been a monumental fuck-up.

    Now think about that. To the LEFTISTS here we agree. Obama has been a total fuck up.

    Now, how do you account for that. The Leftists dont like Obama. Or Clinton.

    What does that tell you about the difference between a Democrat/liberal
    and…a…”huddle-board-Leftist” ?

    I can see how you would interpret things as Obama not being a “conservative” btw. I can see that. You are more of a Pat Buchanon / Donald Trump person, right? Obama does have plenty of differences from Trump/Buchanon.

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    in reply to: time to take the political compass poll again #45623
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    We can probably thank the Soviet Union in general, and Lenin and the Bolsheviks, in particular, for a great deal of the distortions. If, for instance, mainstream Marxist, socialist and communist traditions had won out there, instead of right-Marxist Bolsheviks, history may well have seen a large scale demonstration of left-anarchism, which is anti-authoritarian by nature. ..

    —————–
    I think thats probly true.

    Stalin, Lenin, really gave the ‘left’ a bad name.

    And the Corporate-capitalist propagandists have been pounding away
    at the idea that THAT is what socialism IS, for decades.
    And they have succeeded beautifully in persuading Joe and Jane American
    that, there’s only one kind of socialism and its “godless and evil”.

    Its as if everyone believed there was only one kind of “Christianity”
    and that was the kind the Ku Klux Klan believed in. Rather than, say, the Quakers, or Unitarians, etc.

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    in reply to: time to take the political compass poll again #45621
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The usual. Left-libertarian.

    Your Political Compass
    Economic Left/Right: -9.63
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92

    There were some questions (as always) where I didnt really like any of the answers.
    For example this one —
    “There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only different cultures.”

    I think ALL peoples have savage AND civilized aspects to their cultures,
    but as to whether some cultures are ‘worse’ than others….man, that is a tough call for me.
    I think about that one every single day. How do we weigh different aspect of culture. How do we weigh, say, genital mutilation versus cluster-bombing civilians? How do we weigh heavy-patriarchy versus head-shrinking? Toxic-waste versus collateral damage? Etc, etc, etc.

    I dunno. I’m open to the idea that some cultures are better than others. But I’m also open to the idea that that is not true. And I’m open to the idea that its an unknowable issue.

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    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The Rams need to make the playoffs for Jeff Fisher. If they don’t, I cannot see why Fisher would deserve a new contract. Another losing season, for me, should be looking for a new Head Coach. One that wins.

    I doubt that’s the way Stan is thinking.

    And I submit to you that no coach wins if he has to deal with the kinds of things thet Rams have had to deal with the last 2 years.

    .

    Dick Vermeil won in ’99.

    ———————
    Well to ‘me’ DV is a perfect example of what a coach can and cant do.
    DV won four games in 97. Four games in 98. He was a great coach. Still couldn
    t even win half his games.

    In 99 he had
    a hall of fame QB,
    two hall of fame WRs,
    a hall of fame OT,
    and a hall of fame RB.

    And most importantly, he had a team that
    didnt have key injuries all year long. Very very healthy team.

    Now, give Fisher five hall of famers, and a healthy team all season long,
    and I’d bet he’d at least win ten games 🙂

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    in reply to: LA Times on Rams DL #45599
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well, if each is healthy I guess it will be the best DLine
    the Rams have had since the GSOT.

    Should be fun to watch. Teams had better not fall behind the Rams
    or get in third and long too much.

    OTOH, can the Rams stop the quick, short pass-attack?

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    in reply to: Rams waive Bailey #45595
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well, i think mostly he’s a good example of what NOT to do
    for the young players. He can talk to them about not
    taking unauthorized drugs, etc.

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    in reply to: Rams sign QB Dylan Thompson #45562
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Dylan Thompson. I dunno, he sounds like a folk singer.

    Maybe Fisher is stuck in the 6o’s.

    It makes me question the whole entire new offense.

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    in reply to: Nick Hanauer On Bill Maher #45549
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Damn. That was pretty good. Even some of the richest corporate-capitalists
    are noticing how extreme capitalism has gotten in Amerika.

    That means things are beyond bad.

    w
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    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well, i dunno. Its the same view Vegas has. I think the Rams are only
    favored in six games. That’d make’em 6-10.

    6-10 is a reasonable forecast. Its not batshit crazy or anythin.

    7-9 is reasonable. 8-8.

    But so is 9-7. And maybe even 10-6.

    I just think it could play out a lot of different ways
    this year. Lots of Talent. Lots of Question marks. Rookie, talented QB.

    Biggest Question mark on D, for me, is Quinn. If he is back to being a Beast
    it makes a huge huge difference. The D dont need a secondary if Q and A
    are playing beastly.

    Biggest reason for optimism is the OLine. Looks like the most settled OLine
    in many years. Gurley should be better. So, they could grind out some tough wins.

    I could see ten wins and a wild-card, if everything falls the right way.

    I could also see an up and down, messy, inconsistent year with the New receivers and a rookie QB.

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    in reply to: I did a DNA Test #45486
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    That’s fun. How much are those tests?

    I bet I am part malamute.

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    in reply to: shelf clouds (pics and vids) #45485
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Not that rare in the midwest and south.

    ————
    What state do you live in?

    w
    v

    As I’ve written before, Tennessee.

    —————
    I’ve never been to Tennessee.

    What’s the prettiest geographic-spot in Tennessee?

    w
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    in reply to: 2016 Los Angeles Rams Sign DL Cam Thomas #45484
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well frankly i think its just what the Rams DLine needed.

    A big fat run-stuffer for clutch short yardage situations.

    I think he’ll be a more important factor than
    folks think.

    w
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    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    weird hand-gesture vid

    —————-
    LoL, ok, i’m sorry but i just couldn’t get past that guy’s
    weird, awkward, mechanical, hand-gestures.

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    in reply to: RIP Muhammad ali #45447
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I became a boxing fan because of Ali and I stopped being one when he retired. He was the brightest star during the greatest era of heavy weight boxing when Ali, Frazier, Norton and Foreman were contenders.

    ————-
    same with me, basically. Ali drew me into boxing, and when he retired i really lost interest.

    Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman — i wonder how many total concussions they all had.

    I used to assume MMA was more dangerous, but maybe its less dangerous.
    There is less of a “constant pounding” I would think. Maybe more danger to knees and joints but less to brains.

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    • This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    in reply to: Intelligence memo to Obama on the emails #45444
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The real crime is Clinton Foundation Donors including despots dictators and psychopaths getting sweet arms contracts including biological weapons from Hillary’s State Dept. after making huge donations to the Foundation which all signs point to being a money laundering scheme. Personal emails were not about yoga, does she look like she’s been doing yoga ?

    Yes selling influence is in the Clinton Syndicate’s DNA. Pay Bill and Hill millions to give a few speeches. Pay the Clinton Foundation to get the Sec. of State Hill to shill your case to Obama. Makes that 2008 primary pow wow deal for Hill to drop out of the race come into complete focus. Yet so many still can’t see. What Bill did for China as president, Hill did for all the world that came bearing cash to pay to play.

    ——————
    What i dont get about you, is this — you can see perfectly well how corrupt Clinton is, but what about Bush, Obama, Nixon, Reagan — they’ve all been corrupt as hell, in the sense of selling influence in return for campaign-support. All of em.

    Do you agree? No?

    It aint just Hillary. Its all of em. Well, except for a very
    few.

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    in reply to: shelf clouds (pics and vids) #45443
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Not that rare in the midwest and south.

    ————
    What state do you live in?

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    in reply to: shelf clouds (pics and vids) #45442
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    If i were a joiner,
    I’d consider joining
    the cloud-appreciation society.

    The Cloud Appreciation Society

    The thing i like most about clouds is
    you can’t buy them at walmart, or order them
    at a drive-thru.

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    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    This state, known as a quantum spin liquid, causes electrons – thought to be indivisible building blocks of nature – to break into pieces.
    The researchers, including physicists from the University of Cambridge, measured the first signatures of these fractional particles, known as Majorana fermions, in a two-dimensional material with a structure similar to graphene…
    —————-

    Majorana particles – Fundamentally confusing

    A completely new type of particle is observed for the first time. What does that mean, fundamentally?
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/life-and-physics/2014/oct/05/majorana-princeton-particles-fundamentally-confusing

    You could define particle physics as the quest to discover the fundamental constituents of nature, and to understand how they interact. The so-called “Standard Model” of physics contains a list of particles which are not made of anything else, and of which everything else is made.

    The question of how something can be made of nothing, and specifically how can a fundamental particle have mass, is both basic and deep. The answer – in the Standard Model – is that the mass of fundamental particles comes about because of the way they interact with Brout-Englert-Higgs field. The Higgs boson is the evidence that this works, and the matter particles which get their mass this way are called “Dirac fermions” because they are described by Paul Dirac’s 1928 equation. In the Standard Model, electrons, quarks and neutrinos are all Dirac fermions.

    There has been small flurry of physics headlines over the last few days about the discovery, by physicists at Princeton, of a new kind of particle – a Majorana fermion. Proposed by the Italian physicist Ettore Majorana back in 1937 – a while after Dirac, but well before Brout, Englert and Higgs – so-called “Majorana fermions” get their mass via a unique and previously unobserved self-interaction, which is completely different from Dirac fermions, and nothing to do with Brout, Englert or Higgs*.

    A consequence of the way this new mass mechanism works is that Majorana fermions must be their own anti-particle. Since particles and anti-particles have opposite electric charge, this can only work for neutral particles. That is to say, an electron has charge -1, so its antiparticle (the positron) has charge +1, and they are distinct from each other, and so cannot constitue a Majorana particle. The only possible candidate for a fundamental Majorana fermion in the Standard Model is the neutrino, since all the other fermions have charge. In fact, many speculative theories that extend the Standard Model – to explain some of the puzzles it doesn’t deal with – contain Majorana neutrinos. There are several highly sensitive experiments around the world searching for evidence, in rare nuclear decays, that neutrinos are Majorana fermions. It is a hot topic.
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    So I was excited to read about the new particle, and somewhat diappointed when I did so to find out that it is not a fundamental Majorana fermion, still less a neutrino. A bit of a let-down for me and my particle-physics colleagues. Nevertheless, the result is interesting for a number reasons.

    What has been seen is a quantum state in one-atom-thick wire which in a certain energy range behaves like a Majorana fermion. It is not a fundamental particle, it is a composite state, and the behaviour emerges from the interactions of atoms, electrons and photons, described by quantum electrodynamics, in which all fermions are Dirac. The fact that Majorana behaviour has been predicted, and then observed, to emerge as collective behaviour from a “more fundamental” (i.e. higher energy, shorter distance scale) theory is fascinating.

    I guess that, given a mathematical principle such as the Majorana mass-mechanism, there are two distinct types of question you can ask. The one particle physicists tend to ask is “Does this appear as part of the basic structure of the universe – does it explain things we already see, answer problems we already have?”. However, one could equally ask “Can we construct a physical system in which this mechanism actually occurs, and if so what can we do with it and what can it teach us?”

    The new discovery arises from addressing the second type of question. This kind of approach has yielded results before. For example, studies of emergent supersymmetry in low-energy optical systems continue even while fundamental supersymmetric particles remain elusive. It is also worth remembering that non-relativistic precursers of the Brout-Englert-Higgs mechanism were influential in the development of the Standard Model; and also that there are amazingly interesting (and useful!) phenomena such as superconductivity which arise in such tricky low-energy quantum systems.
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    I’ve talked about “fundamental particle” a lot in the above discussion, but it is important to be aware that this is just a working definition. The quantum-mechanical principles at play in the complex, composite systems at Princeton are “fundamental” to our understanding of physics, in that they form its foundations, even if the Majorana particle itself is not. When we say that an electron is a fundamental particle, we just mean that we have not been able to see any substructure inside one yet. Or to put it another way, no matter how hard we have tried (and we have tried very hard!) we haven’t broken an electron into pieces yet. It is still possible that we may eventually discover electrons, and even the Higgs boson, to be emergent phenomena of a more fundamental theory, just as these new Majorana fermions emerge from the Standard Model. Each time we look more closely, we have to be ready for surprises; ready to modify what we think of as “fundamental”.

    * Nothing to do with this, either, although it does seem to crop up by mistake quite often in conference talks on the subject.

    There is a pretty detailed account of the Princeton experiment and its new results here, although regretably the paper itself is not open access.

    Jon Butterworth has written a book about being involved in the discovery of the Higgs boson, Smashing Physics, available here . Some interesting events where you might be able to hear him talk about it etc are listed here. Also, Twitter.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by Avatar photowv.
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