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June 17, 2020 at 7:50 pm in reply to: defunding the police … & other legislative responses to the protests #116687InvaderRamModerator
From a purely ‘strategic’ standpoint, i dont like the word ‘defund’. I dont like the way that will play in mainstream-voter-world. Think about how mainstream-voters would react if a candidate said “I’m going to defund the military.”
I dont think it will help defeat Trump to talk about ‘defunding’ the police. And yes, i know ‘defund’ has this or that meaning and it doesnt really mean this, but instead means that, blah blah blah. Good luck getting a mainstream-idiot-voter, with the attention span of a ferret, to understand any of that.
“Defund” will play right into Trump’s wheelhouse, imho. He will LOVE that word. Cant you just picture his talking points now.
w
vi know what you mean.
they should leave “defunding the police” out of it.
they should focus on redistribution of wealth. they should focus on universal healthcare including mental health. they should focus on decriminalization of drugs. they should focus on housing. leave the phrase “defunding the police” out of it.
and maybe take care of those things. and people won’t feel the need for police so much.
InvaderRamModeratorLast season, Akers forced a missed tackle on 32% of his touches and averaged nearly 4 rushing yards after contact per attempt.
where did that rank among other college running backs?
June 16, 2020 at 9:45 pm in reply to: police culture & training, including former police speak out #116640InvaderRamModeratorIt;s true that it’s a war with many fronts. But part of defunding is to REfund resources that actually address issues of poverty for neighborhoods in need. Why have the police handle social work, for example, when social workers can do that.
But there are other fronts too, like health care, electoral reform, and so on.
true. well said.
June 16, 2020 at 9:01 pm in reply to: police culture & training, including former police speak out #116636InvaderRamModeratorI submit to you that these are the results of living in a capitalist system that grinds people down and denies them housing, medical care, human dignity, and a say in their government. These are the results of white supremacy pushing people to the margins, excluding them, disrespecting them, and treating their bodies as disposable.
yeah. but that’s the rub for me. it’s the system that’s corrupt. so if you have the same system in place, what will defunding the police really accomplish?
June 16, 2020 at 8:45 pm in reply to: police culture & training, including former police speak out #116634InvaderRamModeratorya know. i honestly don’t know what to think. lots of people on this board making excellent points. here’s a video. a little bit different from the perspectives being put forth on this board. but i think the guy makes some excellent points. i think it’s worth a listen. i don’t necessarily agree with everything he says. but i think he makes some good points.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by InvaderRam.
InvaderRamModeratorTremayne Anchrum is the same guy. 😉
I am not a big fan of Allen.i agree. i would really give anchrum a good look at center if i’m kromer.
InvaderRamModeratorummm… i wouldn’t be surprised to see trump win again.
specifically because of the race vs class issue. and that the class issue is by and large being ignored.
i would be worried.
InvaderRamModeratoryeah.
InvaderRamModeratoryeah. i don’t know what to think honestly. my mind is just overwhelmed. but after 2016, i guess it was just a matter of when something like this was going to blow up.
not that problems weren’t brewing before that.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by InvaderRam.
InvaderRamModeratori’m not a legal expert. but if they had a prior history. and there are witnesses to corroborate this. could the prosecutors make a case for first degree?
well. i guess they would have if they had this information already and thought they had a case. so i guess not?
InvaderRamModeratorthat was very good.
June 8, 2020 at 9:04 am in reply to: defunding the police … & other legislative responses to the protests #116052InvaderRamModeratordont believe in a human utopia.
but it’s definitely something we should strive toward.
June 7, 2020 at 11:50 pm in reply to: defunding the police … & other legislative responses to the protests #116031InvaderRamModerator“Small government” is ideal, if this includes the police, the military, the border patrol, capitalism, the way brown, black, indigenous and leftist bodies are disciplined and punished — ending that garbage. It’s horrifying if it just means corporations and the super rich can do what they want, while everyone else has a boot on their necks.
well. the only thing i would say is there’d be no “small government”. it’s just that funds would be redistributed.
but you make a lot of good points.
InvaderRamModeratorWhen policing stats do more harm than good: Column
Pressure to raise numbers unjustly pushes police into minority neighborhoods — and into bloating crime statistics
Joseph L. Giacalone and Alex S. VitaleOn Jan. 23, New York City announced a $75 million payout to settle a class-action lawsuit against the New York Police Department. The complainants successfully argued that the NYPD issued more than 900,000 unlawful criminal summonses. Lawsuits like these are preventable, but only if we bring about substantial changes in the organizational culture of police, most important their overreliance on a numbers- and data-driven statistics (or CompStat) system.
CompStat was created in the mid-1990s by then-NYPD Commissioner William Bratton and his Deputy Commissioner Jack Maple, as a way to reorient police toward reducing crime through enhanced information sharing and accountability. It’s now used by departments across the country. The CompStat (which originally stood for comparative statistics) system is multilayered. It is first a computer database of crime statistics (murders, robberies, rapes, larcenies, car thefts) and police activity (stops, tickets, summonses, arrests) for a given district or precinct. District data are analyzed during regional meetings, also called CompStat.
A good tool, abused
The NYPD says CompStat was the driving force in reducing crime by 75% in about 20 years. Unfortunately, as with many new toys, those who used it found a way to break it. Instead of police departments developing it into a tool that could better control crime, they weaponized it. It was and is wielded as a tool of punishment, embarrassment and coercion. The foot was never taken off the gas, even in light of record drops in crime.
Every week in conference rooms across the country, police officials gather for CompStat meetings. Toting binders packed with statistics, precinct commanders wait to be called on the carpet by police chiefs about what they are or are not doing to control crime. They have no idea what they will be asked or where the questions will lead. Not every commander will be called on, and stress levels are high. The attempt at intimidation by police chiefs is intentional. Like the saying goes: Kill one, frighten thousands.
Imagine watching a fellow commander being dressed down because there were few stops or summonses in a high-crime area.
Even if more stops aren’t necessary in your jurisdiction, you’ll likely return to your community and take a closer look at where you can bump up your CompStat numbers to avoid being the next commander humiliated during a meeting.
As the precinct commander, you explain to your lieutenants that they must ensure arrests and summonses are up as well as stops. Ultimately, sergeants in your district tell patrol officers to crack down in neighborhoods that may or may not need it. If those cops don’t, they could face retribution in the form of denial of requested days off or poor work schedules. Officers, sergeants, lieutenants and commanders act out of self-preservation instead of developing the most effective and just crime fighting tools.
Less numbers, more social services
When cops are under pressure to show productivity, they make stops and hand out summonses they may not otherwise. That creates excesses that don’t actually reduce crime. The CompStat mentality has created a wedge between the police and the communities they are supposed to serve.Eli Silverman, a criminologist, and John Eterno, a former NYPD precinct captain, show in their book The Crime Numbers Game that in New York City, CompStat led directly to abusive police practices in communities of color and contributed to police commanders falsifying crime figures to bloat their numbers and make it look like some communities are committing more crimes than they are.
This is not just a problem in New York. All across the country, many of the complaints about excessive and heavy handed policing are driven by unnecessary and counterproductive overpolicing in an attempt to “get the numbers up.” The Justice Department raised the issue of too many punitive interactions with the public in their reports on both the Baltimore and Chicago police departments.
There is an alternative.
Former cop turned Harvard Kennedy School professor Malcom Sparrow argues in his book Handcuffed that police need to drop the numbers game and focus on the craft of local problem solving. Problem-oriented policing is based on the idea that many crime and disorder problems are ongoing and have their roots in local social dynamics that can’t be resolved with an isolated arrest or ticket. Instead, police need to identify the larger social issues and work with other city agencies to try to address them. A rash of car break-ins or burglaries might be tied to the closing of a youth program or an increase in homelessness that requires a sustained and systematic response from many different agencies, rather than a one-size-fits-all approach of ratcheting up the number of tickets and arrests.
If we want to repair community-police relationships and create substantive changes, then we must reform CompStat. Police need information and managerial accountability, but they must also bring back the discretion and creativity at the heart of policing. The biggest challenge, however, may be getting these departments to admit that there is a problem in the first place.
Joseph L. Giacalone is a retired NYPD detective sergeant and an adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Alex S. Vitale is associate professor of sociology at Brooklyn College and coordinator of its Policing and Social Justice Project.
InvaderRamModeratorsomething also worth considering.
June 7, 2020 at 8:46 pm in reply to: defunding the police … & other legislative responses to the protests #116014InvaderRamModeratorlike i said i don’t think it can be completely disbanded. there are times where you are going to need force and mental health service providers and social workers will not be able to deal with that. but it’s definitely an interesting idea.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/what-is-defund-police-trnd/index.html
There’s a growing call to defund the police. Here’s what it means
By Scottie Andrew, CNNThere’s a growing group of dissenters who believe Americans can survive without law enforcement as we know it. And Americans, those dissenters believe, may even be better off without it.
The solution to police brutality and racial inequalities in policing is simple, supporters say: Just defund police.
It’s as straightforward as it sounds: Instead of funding a police department, a sizable chunk of a city’s budget is invested in communities, especially marginalized ones where much of the policing occurs.
The concept’s been a murmur for years, particularly following the protests against police brutality in Ferguson, Missouri, though it seemed improbable in 2014.
But it’s becoming a shout. With the deaths of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor at the hands of police and nationwide protests demanding reform, at least one city is considering dissolving its police force altogether.
Does defunding the police mean disbanding the police?
That depends on who you ask, said Philip McHarris, a doctoral candidate in sociology at Yale University and lead research and policy associate at the Community Resource Hub for Safety and Accountability.
Some supporters of divestment want to reallocate some, but not all, funds away from police departments to social services. Some want to strip all police funding and dissolve departments.
The concept exists on a spectrum, but both interpretations center on reimagining what public safety looks like, he said.
It also means dismantling the idea that police are “public stewards” meant to protect communities. Many Black Americans and other people of color don’t feel protected by police, McHarris said.
Why defund police?
McHarris says divesting funds ends the culture of punishment in the criminal justice system. And it’s one of the only options local governments haven’t tried in their attempts to end deaths in police custody.
Trainings and body cameras haven’t brought about the change supporters want.
McHarris grew up in a neighborhood where there were “real, discernible threats of gun violence,” and he said he never thought to call the police — that was for his own safety. Instead, he relied on neighbors who helped him navigate threats of danger.
What if, he said, those people could provide the same support they showed him on a full-time basis?To explain why he supports the idea, Isaac Bryan, the director of UCLA’s Black Policy Center, points to history: Law enforcement in the South began as slave patrol, a team of vigilantes hired to recapture escaped slaves. Then, when slavery was abolished, police enforced Jim Crow laws — even the most minor infractions.
And today, police disproportionately use force against black people, and black people are more likely to be arrested and sentenced.
“That history is engrained in our law enforcement,” Bryan said.
Where would those funds go?
Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement, said defunding the police means reallocating those funds to support people and services in marginalized communities.
Defunding law enforcement “means that we are reducing the ability for law enforcement to have resources that harm our communities,” Cullors said in an interview with WBUR, Boston’s public radio station. “It’s about reinvesting those dollars into black communities, communities that have been deeply divested from.”
Those dollars can be put back into social services for mental health, domestic violence and homelessness, among others. Police are often the first responders to all three, she said.
Those dollars can be used to fund schools, hospitals, housing and food in those communities, too — “all of the things we know increase safety,” McHarris said.
Why disband police?
Disbanding police altogether falls on the more radical end of the police divestment spectrum, but it’s gaining traction.
MPD150, a community advocacy organization in Minneapolis, focuses on abolishing local police. Its work has been spotlighted since the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis Police custody.
“The people who respond to crises in our community should be the people who are best-equipped to deal with those crises,” the organization says.
Rather than “strangers armed with guns,” the organization says, first responders should be mental health providers, social workers, victim advocates and other community members in less visible roles.
It argues law and order isn’t abetted by law enforcement, but through education, jobs and mental health services that low-income communities are often denied. MPD150 and other police abolition organizations want wider access to all three.
Would defunding police lead to an uptick in violent crimes?
Defunding police on a large scale hasn’t been done before, so it’s tough to say.
But there’s evidence that less policing can lead to less crime. A 2017 report, which focused on several weeks in 2014 through 2015 when the New York Police Department purposely pulled back on “proactive policing,” found that there were 2,100 fewer crime complaints during that time.The study defines proactive policing as the “systematic and aggressive enforcement of low-level violations” and heightened police presence in areas where “crime is anticipated.”
That’s exactly the kind of activity that police divestment supporters want to end.
Will defunding the police come to pass?
It’s radical for an American city to operate without law enforcement, but it’s already being discussed in Minneapolis.
City council member Steve Fletcher, in a Twitter thread, said council members are discussing “what it would take to disband the Minneapolis Police Department and start fresh with a community-oriented, non-violent public safety and outreach capacity.”
“We can totally reimagine what public safety means, what skills we’re recruiting for, what tools we do and don’t need,” he wrote. “We can invest in cultural competency and mental health training, de-escalation and conflict resolution.”
Defunding is simpler than disbanding, though, and at least one mayor’s already taken that step. After Californians decried a proposal to increase the Los Angeles Police Department budget to $1.86 billion, Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti agreed to slash between $100 million to $150 million from the proposed funding.
It’s not a significant dent in the budget, but it’s proof that officials are listening, Bryan said.
“A week ago, defunding the police in any capacity would sound like ‘pie in the sky,'” he said. “Now we’re talking about it. Defunding police in its entirety still might sound like ‘pie in the sky,’ but next week might be different.”
InvaderRamModeratori still say that for the most part protesters were peaceful.
i don’t wanna speculate on who started what or who escalated what. but most of the protesters were peaceful. it was so disheartening to see all the violence going on.
hopefully, the protesting continues without interruption.
InvaderRamModeratorI thought the Kaepernik/Lockhart part was interesting here:
i’m being grumpy too. certainly blackballing kaepernick was the wrong thing to do. i don’t deny that. and we’re all flawed. doesn’t mean we shouldn’t speak up when we see something wrong happening. but we’re all cowards too. and that’s what’s so frustrating.
according to lockhart goodell wanted teams to sign kaepernick… but it came down to money. that’s how it always is i suppose. the lockout wasn’t intentional. but not one of the owners was brave enough to step forward.
but like you said. what happens if the players stand united? but again. it was about the money.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by InvaderRam.
InvaderRamModeratorehhh…
where was colin kaepernick speaking out about human rights abuses by nike?
or steve kerr, lebron james, etc… about human rights abuses going on in china?
although yes. goodell does sicken me. a lot of what the nfl does sickens me…
but really. sometimes humans in general sicken me.
InvaderRamModeratorJust someone I know on Facebook.
Stacy Alaimo
As I watch this video of police brutality I am struck by the sharp contrast of police treatment of right wing agitators. At a recent demonstration to take down the confederate statues in Dallas, white supremacist militia were allowed to strut around with huge rifles and harass and bait and yell at all the anti-racist protestors. They were strutting around in downtown Dallas, fully armed, trying to provoke fights and the police let them do what they wanted.
well. i don’t know about dallas. but the head of the minneapolis police union?
- This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by InvaderRam.
InvaderRamModeratorchappelle. what a genius. could have taken it a multitude of ways but chose to use it as a teaching moment. and changed at least 2 people’s minds. and hopefully, they can go on and spread that message forward.
InvaderRamModeratorcan they sue the police department?
InvaderRamModeratoryeah. it’s worth a bump.
InvaderRamModeratorthat was good. i agree with a lot of what he says.
InvaderRamModeratorWell we already know what life looks like when Police Unions are prohibited.
ima check it out tomorrow.
If I had a gun, I would train with it a lot until I was very good with it.
well right now i’m thinking maybe they need more training without a gun. like de-escalating a situation. communication. conflict resolution. meditation. i don’t know.
InvaderRamModeratorI believe there is a way to have strong Unions and still fire/charge people who Brutalize others.
my guess is if you got rid of unions. management wouldn’t offer counseling to cops. they wouldn’t give them things like health insurance or retirement plans. they’d just burn them out and then recruit more cops. i fear that the brutality might actually get worse.
InvaderRamModeratorand not to just excuse law enforcement. but the average life expectancy of a cop is 57 years. 57 years. 22 years younger than the general population.
the leading cause of deaths among cops is suicide. i’m not sure if that includes retirement. but shoot. if the average life expectancy is 57 you’re probably not living long past retirement.
but again. african american communities of low socioeconomic status. what kinds of trauma do they experience all throughout their lives? i can’t even imagine.
it’s all just so tragic.
InvaderRamModeratorCivilian Review Boards. Made up of Community Members.
The Police are PUBLIC servants. They should be accountable to US.
absolutely.
and i think mental health has to be addressed as well. at all levels. for all people.
but yes. when the public grants you that much power, you have to be held accountable. there is no self-policing when it comes to that.
absolutely.
InvaderRamModeratorBtw, I think the fact he was complaining he couldnt breathe BEFORE the cop put his knee on his neck, works FOR the prosecution. If thats not negligence, i dont know what is. The cop was already on notice that the guy was having breathing problems.
yeah. i’m not a lawyer. but that’s how i see it.
InvaderRamModeratorI agree with all that. It takes a special “type” to be a cop. Someone that’s either not afraid or looks forward to being in physical combat much like college and professional football players. Given that mentality or lack of fear for aggression, it would not be surprising that many are “pre-disposed” to acting in a violent manner in response to all that you noted that’s happening during large protests w/ “yelling, confusion, and explosions”.
and that’s also not to discount the trauma that victims of interaction with law enforcement go through. that’s also a real thing which needs to be addressed. mental health in general is a huge problem in this country.
and yeah. what predisposes a person to want to go into law enforcement? are they more likely to have suffered certain traumas early in their life.
first responders suffer ptsd at a rate of anywhere from 19% to 30% i’ve seen in some studies. i’m guessing it’s probably higher since they are most likely underreported.
just briefly looking online, i saw a study that showed african americans from low socioeconomic status suffered from ptsd at a rate of 44%.
the general population suffers from ptsd at a rate of 3%.
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