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  • in reply to: Election Day(s) #124129
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    It’s always been political malpractice for the Dems to chase after (non-existent) Republican fence-sitters. Election after election proves they’re the most likely voters to stick with their own team. Dems do too, but not at the same rates. As in, the GOP has an easier time peeling off disaffected Dems than the reverse.

    The best route for Dem victories has always been to excite and inspire more of their own base, more young people, more lefties, more POCs, etc.

    Oh, and the current food-fight between centrists and progressives is easily solved, if centrists actually want to solve it. Stop accepting the far-right frame for everything, including “socialism,” and never group slogans like “defund the police” with economic programs like M4A. That’s what the far-right wants. They have to be laughing with glee when a Spanberger does that. They want those things permanently attached at the hip, when they’re not at all — at least if we’re talking about how that slogan is perceived.

    Messaging. Focus on major (soc/dem) improvements via healthcare, education, environmental/works programs. Talk about “police reform,” not defunding the police. It should be a very easy sale. If Trump and the GOP can sell odious policies that only help billionaires, there is no logical reason the Dems can’t sell popular programs that help the 99%.

    in reply to: Biden-anyone believe he can take office? #124128
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Also: Trump ordered the entire Executive to block any efforts by the Biden team to start the transition. Trump has thousands of political appointees who have ordered their respective fiefdoms to ignore all requests from the Biden team.

    And Trump is firing anyone who won’t go along with this, including the Defense secretary, or they’re quitting.

    This is not a done deal. Why? Again, Trump will do anything to avoid jail or forced exile, and it looks like the GOP is largely in support.

    IMO, the Dems are making a huge mistake in assuming this will all die in the courts, in their favor. They need to go on offense instead. Launch their own lawsuits against GOP voter suppression efforts, and the House should hold immediate hearings on this and the corruption of the Postal Service. They won’t. They don’t do offense. But they desperately need to.

    in reply to: Biden-anyone believe he can take office? #124127
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Trump presents a unique challenge in so many ways, to say the least. First off, he’s a sociopathic monster. He has no bottom. There is nothing he won’t do to serve his own interests. Lie, cheat, steal, manufacture evidence, let people die by the hundreds of thousands. Nothing. Prior to becoming president, those traits had a limited impact, but they still harmed thousands of people. Now, he has the full force of the Executive branch behind him, plus the Senate, and the Supreme Court, and he knows the only thing standing between him and jail or forced exile is remaining president.

    I’m not worried about a military-backed coup. I’m worried about a DoJ/State Dept-backed coup. If folks don’t think Barr, Pompeo, Nosferatu and company are above manufacturing “evidence” in order to keep Trump in power and out of jail . . . they haven’t been paying attention for the last four years.

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #124089
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Zooey,

    Thanks for that. That was hysterical!

    ;>)

    And she didn’t even get to the best part. It was located between a crematorium and a porn-store.

    in reply to: the new virus news & virus dark humor thread #124085
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    in reply to: the new virus news & virus dark humor thread #124080
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I’m having trouble finding the article again. But apparently there’s a woman, asymptomatic, who was shedding infectious virus particles for 70 days, breaking all previously known records.

    The longest period for being infectious for those with symptoms, according to the article, was 61 days.

    That’s not a good sign.

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #124076
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    UPDATE: Marshall police chief resigns after threatening social media posts

    An Arkansas sheriff called for death to all “Marxist Democrats,” and was fired, when this was discovered. But what about all the people in power who hold these views that we don’t know about, and want to act on them — or have?

    ____

    Makes me think of this great work/warning, Martin Niemöller:

    First they came for the Communists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Communist

    Then they came for the Socialists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Socialist

    Then they came for the trade unionists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a trade unionist

    Then they came for the Jews
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Jew

    Then they came for me
    And there was no one left
    To speak out for me

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #124063
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    There is a real progressive movement in the country. In terms of what voters want, when polled, they identify with progressive positions, too. It is also true that unlike more advanced democracies (in Europe for example), the USA is still dealing with good old-fashioned red scare tactics. But I will say this. People who warn us about that kind of thing actually reinforce those tactics. Sometimes I even think that’s the point.

    I think its quite complicated. Lots of different political-factions and movements swirling in a vortex of American politics.

    Biden/Obama/Clinton/DNC use the same formula over and over to win or sometimes lose elections. They do that because they are moderate-republicans. Thats what they are. So they just do what those people do. And its always the same formula.

    The question the progressive movement asks is — Is there another formula that could actually Win? I mean win big. Nationally. Not just a small district like AOC’s etc.

    I dont think we know the answer to that question.

    w
    v

    Agree with all of that. Another factor, or two, or three:

    Clinton/Obama/Biden/DNC govern like moderate Republicans, but those moderate Republicans no longer exist in the GOP. So what is it they’re mimicking, exactly? A phantom, a mirage, a myth?

    Both parties also have their own gravitational pull, and the influence of their “bases,” which alter words and deeds and ideologies. So a “moderate Republican” who actually resides IN the GOP is going to be much, much further to the right than a “moderate Republican” who resides in the Dem Party. They won’t speak or act in the same way. Not ever.

    I’d much rather have the kind of society described in Martin Hägglund’s This Life. But if I have to choose between a moderate Republican in Dem clothes, or a moderate Republican in Republican clothes, I’d take the former. And in this election, it was a much easier choice than that:

    Moderate Republidem versus fascist POS.

    I hope I live long enough to see a true leftist in the White House and leftists controlling Congress, etc. etc. Who then work to change the system entirely: fully realized economic and political democracy.

    We can dream.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by Avatar photoBilly_T.
    in reply to: Election Day(s) #124055
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    The last few days I’ve been live-streaming ABC News, NBC News and PBS News to follow the election. I wanted to stream Fox but i guess they didnt have a live-stream.

    Anyway, this is the first time Ive actually watched the Corporate-Network-Pundits in many many years. I had forgotten what they are like. It…is…APPALLING how they ALLLLLLLLLLLL sound like David Gergin. He’s the smooth, soothing, civil, moderate-republican from PBS. I mean they ALLLLLLLLLLL push moderate-republican/Dem-Centrist strategies. ALLL of them.

    I had to turn it off. It was physically painful to listen to it.

    My god in heaven. I had forgotten what a propaganda-wasteland TV ‘news’ is.

    There’s a reason we have another Biden in office now.

    w
    v

    Before there can be any real progressive movement in this country they have to let the following sink in: Over 40 million people in this country think Biden is either a socialist or a communist.

    A large chunk of the population thought Ike was too, falling for far-right demagoguery. They just couldn’t get together and share their ignorance back then like they can today.

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #124054
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Thanks, ZN and Zooey, for letting me know about Booker.

    That slip-up isn’t nearly as bad as my “your/you’re” screw-up, immortalized, unfortunately, by Invader Ram’s quote.

    ;>)

    Yeah, Charles Booker had a chance. McGrath never did.

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #124029
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    One thing I’ll say: for the last two years, I and progressive candidates have been unseating powerful Dem incumbents supported by DCCC.

    Not *once* has anyone in the party asked me what weaknesses I’ve found in their operation.

    This gets us to a (by now) old theme.

    The mainstream dem party machine courts republicans and absolutely fights against its own progressive wing.

    Tells us everything we need to know about the dem party machine…in case we didn;t know already.

    And of course courting republicans does not work and neither does open warfare against its own progressive wing.

    Example: there’s strong evidence Cory Booker would have beaten McConnell or at least had a much better chance than that bleached dishrag the dem party machine backed (McGrath).

    ZN, do you mean someone other than Booker? Apologies in advance if this is something I’ve just missed, but I thought he was firmly entrenched in Jersey politics.

    in reply to: what will the Bidenidency look like #124018
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    To me, it’s all about triage, and Einstein. It’s all about stopping the bleeding, stopping the fascist coup, and relativity.

    Will Biden and the Dems fall well short of what we leftists want? Of course. Well short of what liberals want? Of course. They will likely govern via mediocrity and too much centrist timidity. But relative to Trump and the Republicans? It’s an Obama, or a Mussolini.

    To me, the choice was beyond obvious, and the result, given the options, was what America and the world needed.

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #123982
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    The wicked witch is dead!!

    well. at least until 2024. biden trump II – trump lives.

    ;>)

    Guessing your kiddin.

    My best guess is that Biden won’t run for a second term, and Trump will be in jail, or in exile. Even if he skates from accountability for his crimes again, he’ll be 78 in 2024, with all kinds of the proverbial “co-morbidities.” I doubt he’ll even attempt another run, even if he had the health to do so.

    I’m also convinced that he’s long been on drugs to keep him standing for his marathon stream of consciousness rallies. Which is why he continuously accused others of being on them. With Trump, everything is a confession or a projection. He goes on offense so he doesn’t have to defend his own actions, etc.

    If anyone has seen the video of him giving a depo (in LA) before his presidency regarding a civil lawsuit against him, they’d see what I mean. He barely had a pulse. Absolutely no energy, much less bluster or swagger. A shell of a man, etc.

    Am betting he’s had artificial help for years and years.

    In short, the race in 2024 is likely wide open.

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #123980
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    This is a great day, IMO. I popped the cork on a bottle of champagne, and had a bit, even though it’s too early.

    The fascist POS has been vanquished!! The worst president in American history, an existential threat to the planet, and someone who was just fine with killing Americans in his attempt to retain power, is gone.

    The wicked witch is dead!!

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #123972
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    ZN,

    You may need to change the heading to Election Weeks.

    ;>)

    Just my take, but I think the networks are afraid to make the obvious call, and if the shoe were on the other foot, they would have made it Wednesday. Fear of Trump’s tantrums is stopping them.

    Business Insider, for example, called the race for Biden Thursday, cuz of PA. Didn’t give him more than that, but that put him over 270.

    Another thought: America has to be the most uninformed, disinformed nation on the planet. All kinds of pre- and post-election surveys saying large percentages of Americans thought/think the economy was/is relatively good, and Trump has done a good job on that and the pandemic.

    In a sane nation, a well-informed nation, his handling of both the economy and the pandemic would be universally condemned, not to mention his endless lies, sadism toward immigrants, the poor, destruction of the environment, etc. etc.

    No excuse for the richest nation on earth to be this lost in the fog.

    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    But it’s just not going to be enough to stem the tide of environmental destruction

    Personally? I’m not convinced of that.

    I know you read voraciously.

    But I can recommend some very good books on the subject you may not have read yet.

    The Uninhabitable Earth: Life After Warming
    by David Wallace-Wells

    The Sixth Extinction, by Elizabeth Kolbert

    On Fire, by Naomi Klein

    The Divide, by Jason Hickel.

    and the book by Moore and Patel already listed.

    All excellent, and sobering.

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #123928
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    The media rarely relay the facts about why this is taking so long. Some pundits have. But it needs to be universal.

    GOP legislatures forced these states, including Penn, to wait until Election Day to start counting, even with all of those early votes. It’s on them, and now Trump is screaming fraud where none exists, except on HIS behalf.

    None of this had to happen. And our two miserably incompetent, or malicious, or sadistic, parties, have to fix this shit.

    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    So, again, I am a thousand percent behind the reforms we’ve talked about. We desperately need them, now. Not in the distant future. Now. We actually should have had them in place generations ago.

    But it’s just not going to be enough to stem the tide of environmental destruction, and it will likely add to it, for the reasons I suggested. And as long as we have capitalism in place, the richest folks at the top will never, ever dial it down enough, so the bottom can dial it up, which is the only way to avert those End Times, short of keeping the poor . . . poor.

    The very “success” of the capitalist system in boosting unprecedented consumption means that only a relatively small percentage of the world can live like the Global North lives, without permanent damage to our ecosystems. While it is absolutely true that everyone can have what they need, including food and clean water, if we share this planet, capitalism will never let that happen. It’s set up to do the opposite. Concentrate at the top, hoard, limit, monopolize.

    Boiled down: The World Wildlife Fund said that by 2030, at present consumption rates, we’ll need two entire earths to meet our demands. If we all lived even like middle class Americans, we’d need four.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by Avatar photoBilly_T.
    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by Avatar photoBilly_T.
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Make it abundantly clear to all citizens that a greater Commons, a far bigger public, non-profit sector, would be a massive boon for all. But to make it have an obvious, can’t miss impact, it has to go Big. Really big. It can’t be mush. It can’t be meh. It can’t be a bit corporate, a bit non-profit, cuz the former will water down the benefits of the latter.

    Well long term goals aside (ie. reform v. revolution aside) we already did this. And it worked, though it was a racist version so didn’t work for everyone. Talking about the FDR New Deal plus the GI Bill (both of which were deliberately tailored to be exclusionary in racial terms). So yeah you can have things like that which as we all know, is basically all that Bernie was trying to do–consolidate, protect, and extend the New Deal.

    And it wasn’t dismantled by capitalism per se, it was dismantled by narrowly sectarian political and economic neoliberal policies which favored certain constituencies and pretty much screwed everyone else. Leaving the everyone else to blame people of color, liberals, gub’mint, and so on.

    Again, the long term aside….right now, are there New Deal policies that would improve the quality of life, along with Green New Deal policies (which themselves have the potential to create jobs and bolster the economy). We all know what that list would look like, including MFA.

    I mean I think we all agree with that.

    And we know it ain’t gonna happen under Biden.

    We agree about what Sanders was actually pushing — and what Biden won’t do. It’s basic FDR, updated for 2020. Where I think we part is on what actually blocked it. Those sectarian factions blocked it on behalf of capitalism, in my view. Neoliberalism is capitalism. It’s actually the logical progression of capitalism, because capitalism creates the power imbalances that allow it to blow through most political checks and balances, including previous reforms. The FDR era? That was an anomaly (IMO), set up by a once in a century (maybe two or three), combination of back to back wars, depression, a surprisingly strong left (relatively speaking), etc. All of that came together in such a way to enable a one-off change in capitalist arrangements. None of that occurred during the roughly three or four centuries* prior to FDR, or after him.

    *As you know, historians of capitalism differ a bit regarding its origin date. The most recent history, for me, basically put its beginnings, roughly, with Columbus and the so-called Age of Discovery.

    A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things A Guide to Capitalism, Nature, and the Future of the Planet

    by Raj Patel (Author), Jason W. Moore (Author)
    October 2017

    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Quick follow up:

    One potential and radically important use of social democratic reforms would be this (IMO):

    Make it abundantly clear to all citizens that a greater Commons, a far bigger public, non-profit sector, would be a massive boon for all. But to make it have an obvious, can’t miss impact, it has to go Big. Really big. It can’t be mush. It can’t be meh. It can’t be a bit corporate, a bit non-profit, cuz the former will water down the benefits of the latter.

    I think that’s one of the best routes toward true economic democracy. Prove in concrete terms that the for-profit private sector simply can’t compete with the non-profit public sector. And it can’t.

    Second point to follow up on: The wealthy and near-wealthy all over the globe are going to need to radically downsize their consumption, footprints, etc. etc. And we’re all going to have to work together to lift up the poor and the working poor across the globe. Again, if we just do the latter, we’re speeding up environmental catastrophe. Without major sacrifice — major de-growth — from the richest 20%, at least, the added flow into mainstream consumer culture of the so-called “developing world” will bring on literal End Times.

    Gotta pull waaaay back at the top and the middle, while we lift up the bottom and lower middle, etc.

    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    And, to me, there is no getting around this: Even with social dem reforms, which I definitely support — stuff like M4A; free public schooling, cradle to grave; guaranteed jobs at a living wage; capping the ratio of ownership to rank and file comp, etc. etc. . . . keeping capitalism in place dooms the planet. Ironically, tragically, almost perversely, the very reforms that are desperately needed to help fight inequality actually mean we consume, waste and pollute ever more. Bringing more people into the consumer stream means the planet dies that much sooner.

    It’s not the answer. It’s much needed triage in the immediate term, of course. But it just speeds up the Day of Doom, environmentally.

    Capitalism must always Grow or Die, produce more and more and more, lie endlessly about what we all supposedly need, get us to consume more and more, which leads to more and more pollution and waste, etc. etc. That loop is killing the planet, and sentient life won’t last much into the 22nd century if we stick with capitalism, even the reformed kind.

    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I think Corporate-Capitalism just destroys people’s minds and/or hearts and/or character. Mainly because the entire system is built on lies and propaganda. It could not survive withOut massive quantities of lies/propaganda.

    Capitalism leads to Inequality, which means an entire Underclass is stressed, ignorant, unhealthy, depressed, angry, mis-informed, and easy prey for the worst-kind of capitalist-propaganda. Fox-News/NY-Post style propaganda.

    Capitalism leads to a wealthy-class which is privileged, greedy, indifferent, in-denial, blames-the-poor, and easy prey to propaganda aimed at the wealthy. NYTimes/NPR style lies/propaganda.

    Capitalism leads to a 1 Percent, super-elite who are, essentially, for all intents and purposes, smiling sociopaths who are destroying the entire biosphere, while at the same time, giving money to charities, acting as media-darlings, and ‘wise’ policy advisors.

    This system has spun out of control, and its going to get very ugly. Maybe not in my lifetime, but its going to get very very ugly.

    w
    v

    Well said. There is no period of time in the entire reign of capitalism where it ever worked to adequately allocate resources or compensation. Not even during the one and only middle class boom time here (1947-1973), which was roughly the same “golden age” for Europe too. Even then, when capitalism was at its “best,” evah, as far as allocation and distribution of access and comp, we still had mass inequality, and minorities and women didn’t share in that boom much, if any. And the West’s relative “success” was always dependent on virtual slave labor overseas.

    IMO, there is no way to make it work for the good of all. Not even close. It’s impossible. Its very foundation is designed to concentrate wealth, which concentrates power and privilege too. So how could it? It’s set up that way. And, as Martin Hagglund points out, even social democratic reforms, while greatly needed, are incompatible with that set up — and the reasons are self-evident to me, as well as being bass-ackward.

    They come in after the fact, when it’s too late already to prevent that power concentration, so those in power, obviously, will crush even those social democratic reforms whenever and wherever possible.

    It all has to go. There is no way to make it work for more than roughly the richest 20%. At best. There is no history of it ever working to the good of society or the planet.

    in reply to: Election Day(s) #123872
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Zooey,

    Thanks for the Robinson article. As usual, he’s spot on.

    in reply to: libs and socialists talking to each other #123871
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I part ways with Hakim when he talks about arming up, etc. etc. While one might be able to make a good argument for the overall futility of working non-violently, democratically, toward the goal of a truly emancipated society, I think it’s a slam dunk that a leftist revolt in America would be crushed by much larger, far better armed forces. It’s not even close.

    So, this leftist? If I’m GM of the team, and we’re going to be stuck in a futile sea, I’d rather it be in Gandhi’s, Dorothy Day’s, MLK’s, Einstein’s, the Dalai Lama’s, than Lenin’s. And the latter exploited what happened in Russia before him anyway. He was in hiding thru most of the heavy lifting and risk taking. China Mieville’s excellent October breaks all of that down.

    I do hate the idea of the long, slow slog toward “progress,” and desperately want it to happen now, yesterday, centuries ago, and I’ll never be on board with centrist incrementalism. But I still would rather build upon “reformist” wins and make the case for much bolder, all encompassing, faster change that way, than through any kind of violence aside from self-defense.

    That’s my take, anyway.

    in reply to: Election-Bottom line #123824
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Yes, the perception of strength is huge for Americans. It’s a far bigger subconscious rationale, IMO, than any conscious belief in one’s own “best interests.” In general. In the aggregate.

    Humans are contradictory beings. And too many vote their “gut,” which includes their fears.

    This is anecdotal, of course, but I had a convo yesterday with a neighbor, whom I like, and she told me her pastor said this (in paraphrase): “Democrats will pass bills that limit what I can teach you in church.” She believed him, and it sounds like the “flock” there does as well. Her number one reason for voting for Trump was “religious freedom,” which also included her anger at Biden’s support of abortion, as she put it.

    It’s damn hard to defeat things that don’t exist, and the lies that promote the non-existent. Throw in the perception of “strength,” and it’s a hell of a tough climb.

    in reply to: If Trump wins #123788
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Well, turns out I did get to vote. Not ideal. But they helped me “curbside,” and it was pretty quick overall. Ten minutes, give or take.

    I’m still not getting the point of people wearing one of those face shields without the mask underneath it. Not gonna really stop the transmission of the virus.

    Anyway, feels good. Now the long wait. Will it be a night of sorrows, in which case I’ll have to drink up a storm? Or will it be a night of celebration, in which case I’ll . . . . have to drink up a storm?

    in reply to: If Trump wins #123780
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Zooey,

    I’m a bit confused by your proposed way of dealing with today. If you’re going to be singing Irish ballads, in various stages of undress, why the Tequila? Why not Jameson, Joyce’s favorite, or any other kind of true Irish whiskey? At least go for Guinness!!

    Because America is multi-cultural, Billy. I am covering our European heritage with the Irish ballads, our Latino heritage with the tequila, the Republican party with my pants off. I’m all-inclusive.

    As the young kids used to say — well, some of them — Oh, snap!

    ;>)

    But, to truly represent the Republican party, you’d also have to set your hair on fire, and your family probably won’t like the results too much, if I can state things rather baldly.

    in reply to: If Trump wins #123777
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Zooey,

    I’m a bit confused by your proposed way of dealing with today. If you’re going to be singing Irish ballads, in various stages of undress, why the Tequila? Why not Jameson, Joyce’s favorite, or any other kind of true Irish whiskey? At least go for Guinness!!

    And to prepare for it all, why not reread The Ginger Man (Donleavy), one of the best prose performances in the English language? I’ve reread it meself five or six times, and while Sebastian Dangerfield’s actions at times are cringe-worthy, and he’s the epitome of an unwoke antihero, I still love it overall. Personally, I’d put the quality of the prose up there with Joyce, Woolf, Wyndham Lewis, Ford Madox Ford, Djuna Barnes, and another grossly underappreciated Irish writer, Sean O’Faolain (especially Bird Alone).

    Signed, Puzzled, wish I were in Killarney.

    in reply to: If Trump wins #123772
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I tried to vote last week, in person, but the lines were far too long, outside and inside, and the place had rather lax enforcement of Covid rules, so I turned away.

    Have to hope it’s better today at our little local place, but I doubt it. Will drive over there to see, but I have a feeling this may be the first election I won’t be able to cast a vote in a long, long time. Have managed Covid primarily by sticking with very quick trips in and out of places that appear to be enforcing good protocols, etc.

    (Had a heated verbal altercation in a Costco recently, but that’s a story for another day)

    My state is set to defeat Trump fairly comfortably, so I’m not feeling too guilty if I can’t manage this. But I’ll give it a try.

    (I should have requested a ballot early on but didn’t.)

    Anyway, I’ll be reading Spinoza and a Booker winner by Anna Burns, Milkman, and reading the news now and then. Have champagne reading to pop if we find out late tonight, but tomorrow’s more likely. Or even later, if Il Duce allows it.

    ;>)

    Again, stay safe everyone!!

    in reply to: libs and socialists talking to each other #123741
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Ken Wilber the new-agey-guru has a term regarding various kinds of religion/spirituality: “transcend but include”. I have always like his approach with that concept and I kinda think it can be applied to politics sometimes.
    For example if you are a hard-left-marxist-leninist-maoist-whatever-ist, you can have those revolutionary Aspirational goals — and still work with progressive-capitalists to get M4A. You kinda ‘transcend but include’ progressive-work. At least in the short term.

    Its basically the same as what you are saying with “its not either/or”

    The alternative is for commies to just…what? Sit around and argue theory? To wait for the collapse of Capitalism? Which never seems to come. People have been saying its going to collapse ever since i can remember. Far-left-commies need to work with reformers when its something like M4A or Raising the Min Wage. Otherwise they are just irrelevant, in my view.

    w
    v

    I agree with all of that. Well said, WV.

    Like what Wilber says too. Have not heard of him before. Makes a lot of sense.

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