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September 30, 2020 at 12:29 pm #121916
waterfieldParticipantThat is what David Axelrod said the public saw in last night’s debate. However, this study shows Americans value more about policies and actions from the President as opposed to his morality and unethical behavior. If true it only affirms my conviction that we have become a society where the only thing that counts is “what’s in it for me”. Sad.
Op-Ed: Trump may be immoral, but most Americans don’t care
Most Americans say their opinion of President Trump is based more on what he has done as president, which suggest that attacking his character won’t resonate with the majority of the electorate.(Carolyn Kaster / Associated Press )
By SAMUEL J. ABRAMS
SEP. 30, 20204 AM
Since Donald Trump’s election in 2016, it is hard to remember a week when my students have not asked me how a man with such an appalling personal and professional record of unethical behavior could still command the respect of so many Americans.Certainly, surveys regularly show that Americans rank Trump lowest among modern presidents on ethical standards, including Nixon and Clinton, and numerous thought pieces by the media focus on his morality and character.
But the truth is, when assessing Donald Trump, most Americans care less about who he is and what he stands for. They base their judgment more on what he has done in office.
A new poll from the Survey Center on American Life of the American Enterprise Institute offers insight into this question: How do Americans weigh a president’s personal qualities against his policies and accomplishments?
The data show that in aggregate 60% of Americans say their opinion of Trump is based more on what he has done as president, while 39% say it’s based on who Trump is and what he stands for. This suggests that attacks on Trump’s character won’t resonate much with the majority of the electorate.
In fact, this result holds true with little variation among survey respondents by income, geographic location, education or gender differences. Even the opinion of immigrants and native-born Americans converge on this question — 64% of Americans born outside the U.S. judge Trump by his actions in office rather than his character and values, as do 59% of people born in this country.
Even evangelical Americans, who might be expected to care more about morality and ethics, are also more focused on performance in office (64%) than on the president’s personal morals and ethics. Some 60% of non-evangelicals feel the same way, as do 62% of Roman Catholics and 63% of Protestants. Atheists and agnostics collectively are more likely to view Trump through a character lens, but they still lean toward considering his actions.
Political ideology, however, causes a divergence in views. In the survey, 71% of conservatives said Trump’s actions affected their assessment of him more than his character. A far smaller percentage of liberals (55%) said they were swayed more by his actions.
But the greatest differences come into play when we look at race and age. More white, non-Latino Americans (64%) say they assess Trump based on what he has done in office rather than on his personal qualities. Latino and Asian Americans, likewise, focus on his job. But Black Americans differ; they are evenly split.
The most fascinating part of this story is the generational difference in how Trump is viewed. Of the Generation Z group (teens and young adults), 59% report evaluating the president based on who he is and what he stands for, with only 40% saying they judge him based on his actions. This is the inverse of the overall survey response.
Millennials — who are out of college, in the workforce and have families of their own — are more evenly split, 54% for what Trump has done and 45% for what he stands for. Among baby boomers, 70% say they judge Trump based on what he has done and only about 30% say they focus more on his character.
My students — like the rest of Gen Z — are outliers. They are deeply disgusted by Trump’s character and private behavior and judge him on those traits, but most of the country does not agree with them, with even groups that preach morality sidelining those considerations.
The lesson here is simple and important as the presidential race heads into its final weeks. It may be less fruitful to focus on Trump’s character and values, when a majority of voters is less influenced by such factors. Those who want to defeat Trump in November would be better served to focus on his policies and concrete actions or lack of action in his four years in the White House.
Samuel J. Abrams is professor of politics at Sarah Lawrence College and a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.
September 30, 2020 at 1:47 pm #121921
wvParticipantThat is what David Axelrod said the public saw in last night’s debate. However, this study shows Americans value more about policies and actions from the President as opposed to his morality and unethical behavior. If true it only affirms my conviction that we have become a society where the only thing that counts is “what’s in it for me”. Sad.
Op-Ed: Trump may be immoral, but most Americans don’t care
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Well, its complicated isnt it. I know a lot of Rightwing-Evangelical-Christians.
And to them, Abortion is Genocide. So, if you believe abortion is mass-murder-on-a-huge-scale, then voting for a complete jerk is totally justified if he is going to save all those ‘lives’. So, in that sense, those voters are NOT “whats in it for me” type voters. They are thinking of others. To them, liberal-professionals are the selfish ones thinking only of themselves.…I assume the debate was pointless at this point. I dunno, but i assume, all the undecideds have decided by now. 33 days left.
w
vSeptember 30, 2020 at 2:56 pm #121926waterfieldParticipantThat is what David Axelrod said the public saw in last night’s debate. However, this study shows Americans value more about policies and actions from the President as opposed to his morality and unethical behavior. If true it only affirms my conviction that we have become a society where the only thing that counts is “what’s in it for me”. Sad.
Op-Ed: Trump may be immoral, but most Americans don’t care
===============
Well, its complicated isnt it. I know a lot of Rightwing-Evangelical-Christians.
And to them, Abortion is Genocide. So, if you believe abortion is mass-murder-on-a-huge-scale, then voting for a complete jerk is totally justified if he is going to save all those ‘lives’. So, in that sense, those voters are NOT “whats in it for me” type voters. They are thinking of others. To them, liberal-professionals are the selfish ones thinking only of themselves.…I assume the debate was pointless at this point. I dunno, but i assume, all the undecideds have decided by now. 33 days left.
w
vReally was no “debate” so your right-pointless.
I wonder what Progressives think when the right attempts to make Biden out as a socialist and lots of people believe it. I know people who-when asked why they don’t want to vote for Biden-say its because they don’t want this country to become “socialism”.
September 30, 2020 at 6:21 pm #121932
znModeratorI know people who-when asked why they don’t want to vote for Biden-say its because they don’t want this country to become “socialism”.
I’ll tell you what I think. I think when Biden is accused of that, since he’s a conservative candidate deeply identified with the corporate and big money domination of politics, he is going to reinforce their prejudices by disavowing social democracy and also by acting like socialism and FDR style social democracy are the same thing. So Biden reinforces their blind spots by disavowing the idea that he is “socialist” and by attacking progressives for being “socialist.”
An honest progressive or social democracy candidate could stand up and defend that stuff, opening many people’s minds in the process, and diminishing the kind of red scare tactics common in American politics.
September 30, 2020 at 7:31 pm #121936wvParticipantReally was no “debate” so your right-pointless.
I wonder what Progressives think when the right attempts to make Biden out as a socialist and lots of people believe it. I know people who-when asked why they don’t want to vote for Biden-say its because they don’t want this country to become “socialism”.
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Well, we’ve heard it all before. Obama was a ‘socialist’ etc.
The fact that those propaganda-advertising-marketing-lies WORK so well, tells us
a great deal about the political-IQ’s of millions and millions and millions of American citizens.Hell, Bernie’s not really even a socialist in any hardcore sense of the word. He’s more of an FDR kinda guy.
We’re in the home stretch. Anything can happen this last month.
I’m tuning out the day-to-day political stuff. The various outrages of the week.
My brain informs me, i need to turn toward Nature, for a while. Trees. Birds. Caterpillars.w
v
“I suspect that the real moral thinkers end up, wherever they may start, in botany.”
― Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker CreekSeptember 30, 2020 at 8:02 pm #121941waterfieldParticipantI know people who-when asked why they don’t want to vote for Biden-say its because they don’t want this country to become “socialism”.
I’ll tell you what I think. I think when Biden is accused of that, since he’s a conservative candidate deeply identified with the corporate and big money domination of politics, he is going to reinforce their prejudices by disavowing social democracy and also by acting like socialism and FDR style social democracy are the same thing. So Biden reinforces their blind spots by disavowing the idea that he is “socialist” and by attacking progressives for being “socialist.”
An honest progressive or social democracy candidate could stand up and defend that stuff, opening many people’s minds in the process, and diminishing the kind of red scare tactics common in American politics.
I have no idea what your saying. To me the simple answer is that people tell them he’s a socialist. They believe it. They likely don’t even listen to Biden. But my real question was what do progressives think when they hear people tell them Biden is a socialist.
September 30, 2020 at 9:35 pm #121945znModeratorI know people who-when asked why they don’t want to vote for Biden-say its because they don’t want this country to become “socialism”.
I’ll tell you what I think. I think when Biden is accused of that, since he’s a conservative candidate deeply identified with the corporate and big money domination of politics, he is going to reinforce their prejudices by disavowing social democracy and also by acting like socialism and FDR style social democracy are the same thing. So Biden reinforces their blind spots by disavowing the idea that he is “socialist” and by attacking progressives for being “socialist.”
An honest progressive or social democracy candidate could stand up and defend that stuff, opening many people’s minds in the process, and diminishing the kind of red scare tactics common in American politics.
I have no idea what your saying. To me the simple answer is that people tell them he’s a socialist. They believe it. They likely don’t even listen to Biden. But my real question was what do progressives think when they hear people tell them Biden is a socialist.
You asked what a progressive thinks. If you want to know that, then follow along here–you may not be getting an expected answer. And as a progressive what I think when people say Biden is a socialist is that Biden helps keep the red scare bs about socialism going because as a conservative he adamantly compounds the error. He says “no I am not that bad thing.” Reinforcing the red scare way of thinking.
In contrast, an honest progressive would point out that being an FDR style social democracy advocate in the USA is not the same as what most people think socialism is. (And most people are wrong about what socialism is too, never mind the confusion where they mix up social democracy and socialism.)
An honest progressive would not compound the error, he would bring clarity and open discussion to that issue.
WV gave more or less the same answer.
Well, we’ve heard it all before. Obama was a ‘socialist’ etc.
The fact that those propaganda-advertising-marketing-lies WORK so well, tells us
a great deal about the political-IQ’s of millions and millions and millions of American citizens.Hell, Bernie’s not really even a socialist in any hardcore sense of the word. He’s more of an FDR kinda guy.
October 1, 2020 at 9:17 am #121942waterfieldParticipantReally was no “debate” so your right-pointless.
I wonder what Progressives think when the right attempts to make Biden out as a socialist and lots of people believe it. I know people who-when asked why they don’t want to vote for Biden-say its because they don’t want this country to become “socialism”.
================
Well, we’ve heard it all before. Obama was a ‘socialist’ etc.
The fact that those propaganda-advertising-marketing-lies WORK so well, tells us
a great deal about the political-IQ’s of millions and millions and millions of American citizens.Hell, Bernie’s not really even a socialist in any hardcore sense of the word. He’s more of an FDR kinda guy.
We’re in the home stretch. Anything can happen this last month.
I’m tuning out the day-to-day political stuff. The various outrages of the week.
My brain informs me, i need to turn toward Nature, for a while. Trees. Birds. Caterpillars.w
v
“I suspect that the real moral thinkers end up, wherever they may start, in botany.”
― Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker CreekBirds. You might find this interesting. I’ve been to the museum outside of Jackson Hole, Wy.
October 1, 2020 at 9:18 am #121966waterfieldParticipantI know people who-when asked why they don’t want to vote for Biden-say its because they don’t want this country to become “socialism”.
I’ll tell you what I think. I think when Biden is accused of that, since he’s a conservative candidate deeply identified with the corporate and big money domination of politics, he is going to reinforce their prejudices by disavowing social democracy and also by acting like socialism and FDR style social democracy are the same thing. So Biden reinforces their blind spots by disavowing the idea that he is “socialist” and by attacking progressives for being “socialist.”
An honest progressive or social democracy candidate could stand up and defend that stuff, opening many people’s minds in the process, and diminishing the kind of red scare tactics common in American politics.
I have no idea what your saying. To me the simple answer is that people tell them he’s a socialist. They believe it. They likely don’t even listen to Biden. But my real question was what do progressives think when they hear people tell them Biden is a socialist.
You asked what a progressive thinks. If you want to know that, then follow along here–you may not be getting an expected answer. And as a progressive what I think when people say Biden is a socialist is that Biden helps keep the red scare bs about socialism going because as a conservative he adamantly compounds the error. He says “no I am not that bad thing.” Reinforcing the red scare way of thinking.
In contrast, an honest progressive would point out that being an FDR style social democracy advocate in the USA is not the same as what most people think socialism is. (And most people are wrong about what socialism is too, never mind the confusion where they mix up social democracy and socialism.)
An honest progressive would not compound the error, he would bring clarity and open discussion to that issue.
WV gave more or less the same answer.
Well, we’ve heard it all before. Obama was a ‘socialist’ etc.
The fact that those propaganda-advertising-marketing-lies WORK so well, tells us
a great deal about the political-IQ’s of millions and millions and millions of American citizens.Hell, Bernie’s not really even a socialist in any hardcore sense of the word. He’s more of an FDR kinda guy.
No no. I think WV said it best. No complicated intellectual answer. People are stupid.
October 1, 2020 at 9:25 am #121971znModeratorNo no. I think WV said it best. No complicated intellectual answer. People are stupid.
Well it’s possible that WV has a simplistic anti-intellectual answer, though I doubt it. But can we say people are inherently stupid? Seems to me that’s an elitist view no good self-consistent progressive can go along with. IMO many people are as smart as what he calls the propaganda-advertising-marketing-lies let them be. In my case, one of the people I am blaming for the propaganda-advertising-marketing-lies is Biden. He’s the one who goes yeah socialism IS bad and my opponent in the primaries WAS a socialist. So he’s part of the problem, or he is at least in that respect. Mostly because, like most propaganda-advertising-marketing-liars, he believes it.
And don’t worry. Many progressives are voting for Biden. We don’t have to lie about him to vote for him. Like I said once, when it comes to a choice between getting gangrene and cutting your leg off, you cut your leg off.
October 1, 2020 at 12:13 pm #121981
Billy_TParticipantNo no. I think WV said it best. No complicated intellectual answer. People are stupid.
Well it’s possible that WV has a simplistic anti-intellectual answer, though I doubt it. But can we say people are inherently stupid? Seems to me that’s an elitist view no good self-consistent progressive can go along with. IMO many people are as smart as what he calls the propaganda-advertising-marketing-lies let them be. In my case, one of the people I am blaming for the propaganda-advertising-marketing-lies is Biden. He’s the one who goes yeah socialism IS bad and my opponent in the primaries WAS a socialist. So he’s part of the problem, or he is at least in that respect. Mostly because, like most propaganda-advertising-marketing-liars, he believes it.
And don’t worry. Many progressives are voting for Biden. We don’t have to lie about him to vote for him. Like I said once, when it comes to a choice between getting gangrene and cutting your leg off, you cut your leg off.
Have always thought it was a terrible mistake, even from a political POV, for the Dems to lie about Socialism. They don’t have to make a case for it, though I obviously wish they would. But by trashing it, they’re just aiding and abetting their opponents, who lump them in with “socialism” anyway, no matter how conservative they actually are, and Biden is a conservative — as were Clinton and Obama, at least on most issues.
Aside from socialism being head and shoulders the best political philosophy developed to date, morally, ethically, democratically, environmentally, it’s also the best way for Dems to (indirectly) achieve what they say they want to achieve — by positioning themselves as the “compromise” position between left and right. The “sensible center,” so to speak, between socialism and conservatism. By endlessly attacking socialism (and leftists in general), they destroy that possibility, and make themselves appear as “as the radical left” to a large percentage of Americans, ironically.
FDR understood this. He positioned his New Deal as the compromise between a rising socialist tide and the conservative establishment, and basically told the latter, “It’s me or the guys with the pitchforks to my left. Which would you rather have? I’ll save capitalism for you, in exchange for your support,” etc. etc.
Basically, IMO, the current crop of Dems (going back to at least the early 1970s) have helped eliminate the threat of the pitchforks, which just strengthens the GOP’s hand.
October 1, 2020 at 1:56 pm #121983znModeratorHave always thought it was a terrible mistake, even from a political POV, for the Dems to lie about Socialism. They don’t have to make a case for it, though I obviously wish they would. But by trashing it, they’re just aiding and abetting their opponents, who lump them in with “socialism” anyway, no matter how conservative they actually are, and Biden is a conservative — as were Clinton and Obama, at least on most issues.
Aside from socialism being head and shoulders the best political philosophy developed to date, morally, ethically, democratically, environmentally, it’s also the best way for Dems to (indirectly) achieve what they say they want to achieve — by positioning themselves as the “compromise” position between left and right. The “sensible center,” so to speak, between socialism and conservatism. By endlessly attacking socialism (and leftists in general), they destroy that possibility, and make themselves appear as “as the radical left” to a large percentage of Americans, ironically.
FDR understood this. He positioned his New Deal as the compromise between a rising socialist tide and the conservative establishment, and basically told the latter, “It’s me or the guys with the pitchforks to my left. Which would you rather have? I’ll save capitalism for you, in exchange for your support,” etc. etc.
Basically, IMO, the current crop of Dems (going back to at least the early 1970s) have helped eliminate the threat of the pitchforks, which just strengthens the GOP’s hand.
Naturally, I agree with all that.
A football question though. Did you see any of the Bills game?
October 1, 2020 at 3:56 pm #121986Billy_TParticipantWatched the replay on NFL Gamepass (free trial). Thought Goff looked much improved from last year, and am impressed with Henderson.
The Defense? Not so much. Gashed via the run and the pass. They need to fix that or they won’t get to the playoffs, which would be a shame, given the quality Offense, etc.
Will throw in some belated two cents over on the football side later.
Hope all is well.
October 1, 2020 at 7:08 pm #121991waterfieldParticipantI know people who-when asked why they don’t want to vote for Biden-say its because they don’t want this country to become “socialism”.
I’ll tell you what I think. I think when Biden is accused of that, since he’s a conservative candidate deeply identified with the corporate and big money domination of politics, he is going to reinforce their prejudices by disavowing social democracy and also by acting like socialism and FDR style social democracy are the same thing. So Biden reinforces their blind spots by disavowing the idea that he is “socialist” and by attacking progressives for being “socialist.”
An honest progressive or social democracy candidate could stand up and defend that stuff, opening many people’s minds in the process, and diminishing the kind of red scare tactics common in American politics.
The best I can tell what your saying is if a Trumpee says to me “hey Biden is a socialist” I should NOT respond “no he’s not”. What I should instead say is “hey there is a lot to be said for socialism-let me explain why socialism is so much better than what we have now”. And that will convince the Trumpee that Biden is not a socialist !
October 1, 2020 at 7:26 pm #121995
ZooeyModeratorThe best I can tell what your saying is if a Trumpee says to me “hey Biden is a socialist” I should NOT respond “no he’s not”. What I should instead say is “hey there is a lot to be said for socialism-let me explain why socialism is so much better than what we have now”. And that will convince the Trumpee that Biden is not a socialist !
If a Trumpee says to you, “Hey, Biden is a socialist,” you should respond, “Have a nice day. Let’s hope for peace after the election, right?”
Because nothing you are going to say is going to make a damn bit of difference anyway.
October 2, 2020 at 1:43 am #122008znModeratorThe best I can tell what your saying is if a Trumpee says to me “hey Biden is a socialist” I should NOT respond “no he’s not”. What I should instead say is “hey there is a lot to be said for socialism-let me explain why socialism is so much better than what we have now”. And that will convince the Trumpee that Biden is not a socialist !
What I said had nothing to do with what we should say to Trumpees. I mean objectively, not only is Biden not a socialist, he’s not even an ordinary American progressive sympathetic with social democracy (which isn’t socialism). So what I do is laugh and shake my head and say that’s such complete bs, Biden makes a career out of attacking progressives.
Since Trumpees don’t listen it wouldn’t matter either way.
Last time I was actually in that kind of discussion with a Trumpee at the time the issue wasn’t “socialism” it was this guy’s idea that Biden identified with, and was the candidate of, the white extremist faction that was involved with all the political violence in Portland Oregon. He thought Biden was the candidate of what he saw as city burning street anarchists. And he was sincere, this was not a put on. I said Biden’s base is centrist and the guy actually laughed at me for my blindness and ignorance. I just remarked on him being a master of unintentional self-irony. And didn’t care. I mean what are you going to do about those types.
…
October 7, 2020 at 7:53 pm #122605znModerator
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