Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Rams Huddle › Schott is controversial, my 20 cents
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zn.
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July 21, 2014 at 12:10 pm #2085
znModeratorI have different thoughts on this. All IMO of course and as always.
1. There’s nothing wrong with a ball control passing game + power running + play action + setting up big plays. To me, that’s the real Schott offense. We saw it all through 2012. There’s more than one way to skin a cat…and any of a number of different offensive approaches will work in the NFL *if* you have the personnel for it and *if* they execute.
2. We have a confusing picture, in some respects, because there have been 5 different Rams seasons in the last 2 years. First, injury replacement OL season (games 1-8, 2012). Second, relatively healthy OL + Jackson season (7-16, 2012). Third, Richardson can’t run season (games 1-4, 2013). 4th, Stacy can run season (games 5-7, 2013). Fifth, okay but Clemens can’t throw season (games 8-16, 2013). So if people use numbers, always bear in mind that certain imbalances tilt the numbers. So for example we KNOW that in the first 4 games of 2013, they threw at or behind the LOS at a much higher rate than in 2012. Why? According to Schott it was to compensate for no running game. That also means you can’t use 2013 numbers because the 1st 4 games skew them.
3. Execution/personnel. In 2013, Cook got taken out of the game early in the season, and yet the coverage that went his way didn’t lead to any gains elsewhere because WRs were not able to take advantage of it. Givens regressed, they missed their 2 most veteran WRs (Amendola/Gibson–and while they are not world-beaters they WERE more veteran WRs who know Bradford and vice versa). Austin was reeling mentally for half the season, and Schott held back what he asked him to do. Quick was Quick…a practice player who loses something in the heat of battle…and Richardson could not run. That’s not Schott. That’s personnel and execution.
4. On the predictibility. You hear about that with him, but all things can be looked at a myriad of ways. The Schott offense TENDS to go to the strength of the formation, so that they are just beating you with what they have on the field. Schott just seems to always follow the dictates of formation tendencies. (Like for example–the way SF and Seattle do). In the Rams case, that worked against SF and Seattle (mostly) in 2012. BUT this thing where they go to the strength of the formation is also supposed to set up big plays. So Harkey blocks, and blocks, and blocks, and when he’s on the field you know he’s going to block, and then boom he scores against New Orleans. That kind of thing. It’s a combination of power, execution, AND strategic deception. IMO if you don’t factor that in…the Schott who sets up big plays…you aren’t really talking about his offense. You’ve just isolated PART OF IT and forgotten the whole picture.
I don’t have a thorough definitive view. Just enough to start a conversation.
July 21, 2014 at 1:58 pm #2088znModerator(admittedly allied) thoughts from a different poster on a similar topic:
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SOKA
…those dropped balls last year hurt Shotty just like it hurt SB. [and some say] Shotty has to dial up something new when the run does not work.
Well, nobody is able to do that against NFC West defenses. So I think those are unreasonable expectations. Shotty is supposed to take SB, Cook, Givens, TA, Quick and Bailey and do what McCarthy has been unable to do with Rodgers and a stable of great receivers for over three years and five tries against SF?Its easy to say he is part of the problem, but what OC do you feel can do better against NFC West defenses?
…I don’t think it is on Shotty to score 7 more a game, he improved the ppg even with missing SB for nine games, shouldn’t we be able to get 7 more a game just by having SB along with a more experienced TA, Cook having another camp with SB along with Givens, Bailey, Quick and Kendricks?
Isn’t consistency and chemistry what we have been saying SB needed and he would be fine instead of the turnstile OC’s, receivers etc.?
Unless we have a boatload of injuries, I would expect SB to improve our ppg over KC even with the same play calling? And if there are a boat load of injuries, then how can you put it on the OC and use that same reasoning for why SB may underperform expectations.
I am completely confident in SB and the receivers so long as we have a running game. Without it, no OC succeeds against NFC West defenses. But we can not ask SB to throw a lot when the running game is not working against NFC West defenses because nobody makes it work with any success. Not even certain HOF QB’s or historically great offenses.
The key is to remain committed to the run even if you are only getting one yard a carry because you cant throw over 50% and expect to beat those defenses. I liken it to the old Steelers/Baltimore games where both sides would go three or six and out six or seven times in a row.
If you “have” to throw against SEA, SF or AZ then you pretty much insured a loss. Like NO did with us, Fisher stated when he saw Payton keeping Graham and Sproles in to block during the first quarter he knew they would win.
If SF, SEA or AZ are forcing you to throw in the first quarter then they know they have you where they want you.
July 21, 2014 at 3:07 pm #2093
TSRFParticipantI sir, take personal offense at the term “more than one way to skin a cat”.
I find that morally reprehensible.
I, personally, prefer “more than one way to fuck a whore”.
See, whores get paid to have sexual relations. The poor cat? No say in how its fur gets ripped off its carcass. Much more PC IMO.
Schotty can’t call games scared. It’s not just him, it’s like every OC out there. I kind of miss the damn the torpedoes, let’s skin some cats and fuck some whores Mike Martz Offense. No fear. With this D, they can afford to miss on a few, as long as they hit on a bunch.
July 21, 2014 at 8:04 pm #2109
laramParticipantAnd a fine conversation starter it was.
Clemens, Sanchez and Bradford. Oh and Chad Pennington with a blown out arm.
If a good coach is suppose to cater to the strengths of his players…there ya go!
Laram
July 21, 2014 at 8:18 pm #2112znModeratorAnd a fine conversation starter it was.
Clemens, Sanchez and Bradford. Oh and Chad Pennington with a blown out arm.
If a good coach is suppose to cater to the strengths of his players…there ya go!
Welcome aboard.
You’re on record as saying an injured Pennington, Clemens, Sanchez, and Bradford are the same level of qb?
I hope he does cater to Bradford’s strengths…because IMO he’s a better qb than you give him credit for.
July 21, 2014 at 8:29 pm #2113laramParticipantNo that’s not what I’m saying, Bradford has better arm talent, but they all present certain challenges.
I would be happy to be proven wrong.
Very happy.
Laram
July 21, 2014 at 8:55 pm #2115znModeratorNo that’s not what I’m saying, Bradford has better arm talent, but they all present certain challenges.
I would be happy to be proven wrong.
Very happy.
I think he has more than arm talent. We just have to agree to disagree on him for a spell, LA, until we see how it all comes together. My bet is, he will be what he has been under Fisher when they had both a more or less intact OL and a running threat–which is, a good qb who also has a great play action game (which they know how to take advantage of). Your bet is, he’s Sanchez with an arm. (Kidding. I doubt you’re saying that.)
Meanwhile in this thread…toss in a few cents about Schott, why dontcha.
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July 21, 2014 at 9:32 pm #2133TSRFParticipantI’m not thrilled with Schott, but I’m hoping continuity is going to do wonders for Mr. Bradford. I’ve never been a fan of the WCO that substitutes the short passing game for a running game, so I watched the first few games last year in horror. I really liked the emergence of the power running attack, and look forward to more of the same (and much less spread) this year.
July 21, 2014 at 9:38 pm #2135znModeratorI’m not thrilled with Schott, but I’m hoping continuity is going to do wonders for Mr. Bradford. I’ve never been a fan of the WCO that substitutes the short passing game for a running game, so I watched the first few games last year in horror. I really liked the emergence of the power running attack, and look forward to more of the same (and much less spread) this year.
See, I think that was personnel. I think Richardson could not run and they were making up for it. I don’t think that’s Schott. If Richardson couldn’t run he couldn’t run.
And to be honest, I don’t think they did anything different (in principle) with Stacy than they did with Jackson for all of 2012.
First 4 games of 2013, from that POV, are an aberration. They don’t reveal anything. Except that Richardson couldn’t run.
July 22, 2014 at 9:04 am #2154
wvParticipantIt matters to me that BS made it to the AFC championship
twice in a row, with a bad QB. Hard for me to ignore that.w
vJuly 22, 2014 at 9:16 am #2159laramParticipantYep, me too.
I’ve written about the OC until I’m blue in the face, no need for more from me.
The OC is more than good enough to win with.
The team needs to step up and make the plays.
Better execution, and this team will win 10 games. Easily.
Laram
July 22, 2014 at 9:19 am #2160znModeratorI’ve written about the OC until I’m blue in the face, no need for more from me.
But, not everyone here reads the herd. So, not everyone will know what you mean.
Nudge nudge.
July 22, 2014 at 9:20 am #2161znModeratorI’ve written about the OC until I’m blue in the face, no need for more from me.
But, not everyone here reads the herd. So, not everyone will know what you mean.
Nudge nudge.
July 22, 2014 at 10:07 am #2169
PA RamParticipantI have a horrible memory for games. I can’t remember the last play I watched. But I see Shottenheimer make his share of boo-boos. What was the game where the Rams were running the ball great, they get to the one yard line and Shotty dials up a fade or some such thing for Quick. Was that against Seattle? Horrible call and use of personnel at that point.
Still, I am not in any way trying to say he has an Aaron Rodgers to work with–he doesn’t. Yes–he is limited by personnel, no doubt. And certainly Aaron Rodgers would give him more options and make him look very good. But he’s no Mike Martz or Don Coryell or other great offensive mind. He’s an average OC. It’s like the chicken and egg argument. Would the great QB make him a great OC or would a great OC help to make a great QB?
Bradford and Shotty are what they are.
Anyway, this team will win with defense.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
July 22, 2014 at 11:06 am #2175znModeratorWhat was the game where the Rams were running the ball great, they get to the one yard line and Shotty dials up a fade or some such thing for Quick. Was that against Seattle? Horrible call and use of personnel at that point.
That play didn’t bother me. To me, it’s amazing they got down the field against that defense in the first place, with the time left and with Clemens throwing. A bad coordinator doesn’t do that.
In terms of the goal line stand, Stacy was out and that point and came back in hurt. The play you refer to was an audible. Either way, I never do that in judging a coordinator–boil it all down to one play.
July 22, 2014 at 11:41 am #2176PA RamParticipantI didn’t mean to sound like I was trying to “boil it down to one play”. I just have a lousy memory for specific plays. That one stood out to me. Not seeming to know what to do with Tavon Austin, going away from the run when it’s working–having Fisher have to basically decide they were going back to the run when the pass happy stuff was a total failure, an inability to adjust in games. Does Shotty impress me? Not particularly. Is it ALL his fault? No.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
July 22, 2014 at 11:54 am #2178znModeratorI didn’t mean to sound like I was trying to “boil it down to one play”. I just have a lousy memory for specific plays. That one stood out to me. Not seeming to know what to do with Tavon Austin, going away from the run when it’s working–having Fisher have to basically decide they were going back to the run when the pass happy stuff was a total failure, an inability to adjust in games. Does Shotty impress me? Not particularly. Is it ALL his fault? No.
See I don;t think it was they didn’t know what to do with Austin. I think it was that Austin couldn’t do anything (he says his head was reeling at that point). I think they just deliberately held him back. They went away from the run because it DIDN’T work–Richardson was not a feature back and got injured in game 1 on top of it. The Rams from what I have seen are quite good at adjusting in games…in fact, when Martz did Rams broadcasts in 2012 as a color commentator, he had high praise for their offensive adjustments.
Honestly, the way I always see it, most complaints about coordinators are really about personnel and execution. That’s certainly the case for the 1st 4 games in 2013. To me that was all execution and personnel issues. Givens had regressed, Amendola and Gibson were gone (and both were 4 year vets), Quick was still getting mental blocks in games, Austin was spinning, Richardson couldn’t run, even Long had a couple of bad games, and the defense was bad at that point and kept putting them in holes. Defenses figured out Cook immediately yet no one else could take advantage of the extra attention he drew. Now when you can’t run and defenses know it, your WRs are not stepping up yet or are regressing, and your defense is putting you in a hole…what do you do?
You end up looking the way Luck did when the Rams played the Colts, is what you do.
I expect them to run the same offense this year they did in 2012 with Jackson plus in 2013 with Stacy and Bradford (to me it’s the same offense, basically)…but with more mature personnel and better execution.
AND….given all that…my bet is, you (PA) and TSRF still feel the same way. Right? So we need to see the season to see. Fair enough if so.
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July 22, 2014 at 1:26 pm #2181wvParticipant…Givens had regressed, Amendola and Gibson were gone…
Quick was still getting mental blocks in games,
Austin was spinning,
Richardson couldn’t run,
even Long had a couple of bad games,
and the defense was bad at that point and kept putting them in holes.
Defenses figured out Cook immediately yet no one else could take advantage of the extra attention he drew.
Now when you can’t run and defenses know it,
your WRs are not stepping up yet or are regressing,
and your defense is putting you in a hole…
what do you do?What do you DO?
July 22, 2014 at 2:56 pm #2187 -
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