Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Sanders: Not supporting Biden is irresponsible
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wv.
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April 17, 2020 at 9:13 pm #113772
nittany ramModeratorThat’s the key. We’re not in court. There’s no evidence available for us to evaluate. No burden of proof has to be met. All we have is the word of a woman who is risking a lot by coming forward vs the word of a man who has a history of inappropriate touching and general creepiness. She may be lying or he may be lying. No way to know for sure. It sucks that it’s this way, but I’m not just going to dismiss it because there’s no way to know conclusively. The crime is too heinous for that. I’m going with my gut. I believe her.
For what it’s worth, the FBI says less than 8% of sexual assault claims are fraudulent.
And I’m still voting for Biden.
But would you still say “I’m going with my gut. I believe her” if the “claim” was made by Biden staffer against Bernie-since the only information you have is her story? I’m thinking that if your totally honest with yourself-either here on this board or alone with your private thoughts-you would truly hesitate before pronouncing as you did referring to Biden: “Politicians who rape their staffers are evil”. You see-to me that tells me that its clearly more about politics than about rape-and does a disservice to actual victims of sexual assault. Maybe we are just different. I simply cannot imagine myself, upon hearing a claim by a Biden staffer that Bernie sexually assaulted her some time, some where, that Bernie is a rapist. I wouldn’t do that. Maybe my real point in all this is anecdotal and that is listening to so many Sanders supporters as it relates to anyone not a “progressive” there is just so much vitriol (almost “hate” ) for those not part of their own crowd and I do not hear the same heated anger toward Sanders coming from moderates. With progressives it gets very personal when it comes to Biden-much like Trump’s “sloppy Joe”-but even worse -i.e. he’s a “rapist”. I genuinely believe that is why so many people that otherwise would have supported Sanders left his camp. And that is truly sad for me because I believe Sanders is a very decent man who plays by the rules.
Finally, your FBI figure (8%) is bogus. The reason is that those in the rape prevention field believe that by far the majority of victims of rape-be they women or men-fail to report the assault. The FBI figure refers to reported rapes that were investigated.
If a member of Biden’s camp claimed that Bernie had raped her, I would tend to believe her. Bernie doesn’t have the history of inappropriate touching that creepy Uncle Joe has, so maybe I’d find it more incredulous than the claim against Biden, but ultimately I would probably believe her. Accusing powerful public figures of rape comes at a huge cost. When women come forward with these claims, they take a huge risk that their lives will be ruined. They often have threats made against their lives like Christine Ford and the women who accused Trump. What do they gain by it? Their rapists won’t be prosecuted. Hell, they rarely suffer any consequences. Trump became president after admitting to sexually assaulting women on tape, and being accused of sexual assault by 17 women. Kavanaugh still gets to sit on the Supreme Court after being accused while his accuser is or was in hiding. Joe Biden might be the next president despite being accused. These women gain nothing by doing this except additional misery. That’s why I believe Biden’s accuser, and why I would most likely believe Bernie’s as well.
April 18, 2020 at 8:29 am #113775
wvParticipantApril 18, 2020 at 4:14 pm #113780
waterfieldParticipantWhen women come forward with these claims, they take a huge risk that their lives will be ruined.
Based on that analysis you are essentially saying that you believe ANY woman that claims she has been raped. I suspect you may not be alone in that regard. I’m just not part of that crowd.
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This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by
waterfield.
April 18, 2020 at 4:24 pm #113782waterfieldParticipantBut would you still say “I’m going with my gut. I believe her” if the “claim” was made by Biden staffer against Bernie-since the only information you have is her story?
I don’t play that game.
It’s just simply true that there is a low percentage of false claims.
And conspiracy theories aside, the idea that some poor woman would put herself out there for the “blame the victim” effects they get from accusing a celebrity of rape–just for political reasons? Nah. That sounds completely far-fetched to me. It actually sounds like you are doing the smear the victim thing, just indirectly. Why? You’re a Biden advocate.
Some guy on the internet smearing a rape accuser because their candidate is the one accused sounds much more plausible to me than the idea that a woman would put herself through that for mere political reasons.
BUT if Sanders were accused I would have the exact same feelings. Cause as I said not all of us play that game.
And Nittany said he was voting for Biden regardless so there’s that too.
I’m doing the “smear the victim thing” ? I won’t even respond to that. Unsure what you mean by “playing that game” so I won’t respond to that either. As far as Nittany saying he was going to vote for Biden anyway-I can’t imagine me voting for anyone who I genuinely believed was guilty of raping a woman. And yes that is true even in the face of a Trump second term. But that’s apparently just me.
April 18, 2020 at 4:55 pm #113783waterfieldParticipantIt actually sounds like you are doing the smear the victim thing, just indirectly.
The more I think about that quite the more I’m offended. How can you possibly say I’m in the “smear the victim” camp when I have never once in these posts accused her of making up the story ! Nor have I offered my believe that Biden is innocent. All I’m saying is “I don’t know” and therefore I’m not accepting a claim as a truism simply because its made. If that puts me in the “smear the victim” group then I don’t know what to do ! It just seems that to me the most reasonable approach to any “claim” of sexual assault-unless we personally know the victim or we are part of the investigation team-is to refuse to jump on the “he did it cause she said he did it” wagon. If that is “smearing the victim” then we live on separate planets.
April 18, 2020 at 5:12 pm #113784
znModerator. All I’m saying is “I don’t know” and therefore I’m not accepting a claim as a truism simply because its made. If that puts me in the “smear the victim” group then I don’t know what to do !
I took this statement as doing that (and remember I said, indirectly):
But would you still say “I’m going with my gut. I believe her” if the “claim” was made by Biden staffer against Bernie-since the only information you have is her story? I’m thinking that if your totally honest with yourself-either here on this board or alone with your private thoughts-you would truly hesitate before pronouncing as you did referring to Biden: “Politicians who rape their staffers are evil”. You see-to me that tells me that its clearly more about politics than about rape-and does a disservice to actual victims of sexual assault.
First, in that comment, you position people who believe Biden’s accuser as being political. They will, you suggest, believe the accusation depending on who the accused is. Though you exempt yourself from that. You might have had a better case with that if you said ALL people with political beliefs will tend to believe or disbelieve an accuser depending who the accused is, be it Biden or Sanders. Even then I would disagree–I don’t think that applies to everyone, not at all. As is, you open yourself up to the counter-charge that you can’t accept the woman’s accusation against Biden because it’s just as political for you as you claim it is for others.
The actual FBI figure btw is 8% on reported rape cases being false accusations. The FBI could not know how many unreported rape cases there are so they can’t factor that into the percentage.
And you still tend to broad-brush stroke all Sanders supporting progressives. Just a reminder that you are among progressives here, and we’re probably not inclined to accept broad brush stroke stereotypes about what that means.
April 19, 2020 at 12:03 am #113796
ZooeyModeratorI am pretty sure I read that Tara Reade told two associates in Biden’s office at the time of the incident, and both of them have confirmed it.
I also believe her. I believe it because she’s either telling the truth or a professional actor of more than usual ability, and because the story is so plausible it doesn’t even arouse my skepticism. Men in power do this quite a bit, and this was well before MeToo. It’s so common, in fact, that I read a woman defend Biden by making the argument that Every Single Man has sexually assaulted a woman at some point in his life. I was shocked that she believes that, but…on second thought, I had to admit that the charge is not as outlandish as I originally thought. I tend to believe that a LOT of men have been physically inappropriate.
While I think this reflects poorly on Biden, it’s not a difference-maker to me. I have a far bigger problem with his support of the Iraq War and the crime bill, and on and on. Those actions affect millions of people.
I have to say, btw, that I find it extremely ironic that the Democrats who have done almost nothing but bray about the necessity of beating Trump have nominated the person MOST LIKE him, rather than in contrast to him. He’s the most misogynistic, racist, mentally-compromised, and financially shady of all the candidates they had to choose from. WTF is that?
Also…I am apparently the only person who sees Sanders comments about “irresponsiblity” different from everyone else. If you read the surrounding sentences, it sounds to me like he is saying it is irresponsible not to remain involved in the progressive cause, and help pull Biden to the left. Of course, you can’t “pull” Biden if you don’t support him, but I thought Sanders was talking about commitment to progressivism.
April 19, 2020 at 9:43 am #113803wvParticipantFwiw. The age-old-question for Leftists.
April 19, 2020 at 11:13 am #113804znModerator
April 19, 2020 at 11:20 am #113805
Billy_TParticipantAlso…I am apparently the only person who sees Sanders comments about “irresponsiblity” different from everyone else. If you read the surrounding sentences, it sounds to me like he is saying it is irresponsible not to remain involved in the progressive cause, and help pull Biden to the left. Of course, you can’t “pull” Biden if you don’t support him, but I thought Sanders was talking about commitment to progressivism.
No, Zooey, you’re not the only person. I think that’s exactly what Sanders is talking about, and I agree with him. Not so much “Team Biden” as “Let’s keep this thing rolling. I’m passing the torch!”
More (possible?) preaching to the choir here: I think our individual votes are all but meaningless. Everyone here has likely read the recent study out of Princeton that confirmed this nation’s oligarchical status. The two parties listen primarily to the 1% (or 0.01%). IMO, the Dems aren’t nearly as aggressive in fluffing for Corporate America or the robber barons as the GOP, nor are they as likely to aggressively go to war against the planet. But they don’t listen to “We the people,” either.
Ironically, of course, the GOP is just a hell of a lot better at gaslighting enough folks to keep winning elections. They’re masters at hiding their subservience to billionaires behind the mask of religion, guns and the flag. Aside from their outright voter suppression efforts, they’re near geniuses (at getting away with) pitting the working class and most of the middle class against each other, and against our peers around the world. The Dems have been absurdly bad at fighting this, whenever they muster the effort to do so, or just weakly complicit.
But I still think, if forced to choose from the two rotten, corrupt, abysmal, shouldn’t-have-power-at-all parties, the Dems are better — for the majority and the planet.
But, yeah. Sanders isn’t saying All in for Biden! He’s saying let’s dump Trump, get a foot in the door, and fight the status quo in all its forms.
April 19, 2020 at 12:45 pm #113810wvParticipantBut, yeah. Sanders isn’t saying All in for Biden! He’s saying let’s dump Trump, get a foot in the door, and fight the status quo in all its forms.
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Yeah, I third that.
I also would add that I dont know a single solitary ‘progressive’ who votes based on “what Bernie sez.” Ya know.
Also, once you choose to even run as a Democrat, aren’t you bound by their by-laws or whatever to support the Nominee? I thought the corporate-dem-party had a rule like that. I think i remember reading somethin about that. Yes? No?
I still think this is gonna be a very very close election. Just like last time. Could go either way. A few thousand votes could decide it, I would think.
I would give Biden a slight edge at this point. I think the virus-bashed-economy has to help The-Biden.
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vApril 19, 2020 at 2:13 pm #113814waterfieldParticipantAll I’m saying is “I don’t know” and therefore I’m not accepting a claim as a truism simply because its made. If that puts me in the “smear the victim” group then I don’t know what to do !
I took this statement as doing that (and remember I said, indirectly):
But would you still say “I’m going with my gut. I believe her” if the “claim” was made by Biden staffer against Bernie-since the only information you have is her story? I’m thinking that if your totally honest with yourself-either here on this board or alone with your private thoughts-you would truly hesitate before pronouncing as you did referring to Biden: “Politicians who rape their staffers are evil”. You see-to me that tells me that its clearly more about politics than about rape-and does a disservice to actual victims of sexual assault.
First, in that comment, you position people who believe Biden’s accuser as being political. They will, you suggest, believe the accusation depending on who the accused is. Though you exempt yourself from that. You might have had a better case with that if you said ALL people with political beliefs will tend to believe or disbelieve an accuser depending who the accused is, be it Biden or Sanders. Even then I would disagree–I don’t think that applies to everyone, not at all. As is, you open yourself up to the counter-charge that you can’t accept the woman’s accusation against Biden because it’s just as political for you as you claim it is for others.
The actual FBI figure btw is 8% on reported rape cases being false accusations. The FBI could not know how many unreported rape cases there are so they can’t factor that into the percentage.
And you still tend to broad-brush stroke all Sanders supporting progressives. Just a reminder that you are among progressives here, and we’re probably not inclined to accept broad brush stroke stereotypes about what that means.
I agree there might be a tendency of Biden supporters to believe a rape “claim” against Sanders solely because of political preferences. I would be just as critical towards them-but were not facing any such “claims” against Sanders by Biden supporters are we? In my view, without anything more than a “claim” I see no difference at all between one person saying he raped her and another person saying she’s lying. Both are totally unfounded without anything more than a “claim”. Moreover, you don’t call a person a rapist based on some numbers that claim to show most victims don’t lie. That, to me, is no different than justifying the death penalty because only a small minority of those on death row are actually innocent. Same with saying there are very few blacks hanging around together late at night wearing gang clothes with gang tattoos and displaying gang signs that are innocent of any wrongdoings-as a way to justify profiling without any evidence of actual wrongdoing. As far as justifying a rape claim based on Biden’s hx of aggressive physical contacts with not just women but men as well-fails to account for the fact that untoward contact with women by males has been on exhibit for a long time-especially in the professional arena. My wife who was an engineer who worked on the Lunar module product leading up to the moon landing was in an almost totally dominated male environment and was subject to what in today’s standard would be considered sexual harassment on many occasions. She later became a public school superintendent in what at the time was another male dominated occupation and once again the same behavior from male colleagues. Whether it was jealousy or misguided affection-who knows. Unfortunately, many women experience this, even today, especially professional women. But that is not RAPE nor should that behavior be the grounds for believing a person is a rapist. Most rapists are isolated, lonely, victims of some type of abuse themselves and the criminal act is one of ANGER and not affection. In sum, the business of Biden’t overly affection toward women along with the alleged number of few untruthful “victims” is misguided and an unfounded basis for concluding someone is a RAPIST. That’s my opinion.
April 19, 2020 at 2:23 pm #113815znModeratorW, it’s up to the individual to decide.
Right?
And in this thread there’s at least one poster who has both said “I believe his accuser” AND “I will vote for Biden.” Plus at least one dedicated leftist who has it’s impossible to know for certain.
So it seems a range of responses is possible.
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April 19, 2020 at 4:51 pm #113817waterfieldParticipantJust a reminder that you are among progressives here, and we’re probably not inclined to accept broad brush stroke stereotypes about what that means.
Well I assume any group of people who have a shared philosophy would say the same-so there is no dispute there. So I don’t expect “acceptance”. Nevertheless, I do have an opinion which I intend to share-unless your words “you are among progressives here” are meant to imply I’m not welcome here. If so-and I doubt it is-that would precisely be what I meant earlier in my reference to the “play by my rules or I’m taking my ball home” crowd. Unfortunately, a lot of people see progressives as just that-namely unwillingness to accept anyone who isn’t committed hook line and sinker into their beliefs or agenda. I think in part, that is what happened to Bernie even though he personally, with all the years of service in Congress, knew that “purity” was a dead end street.
April 19, 2020 at 6:37 pm #113824znModeratorNevertheless, I do have an opinion which I intend to share-unless your words “you are among progressives here” are meant to imply I’m not welcome here.
Well, obviously, no one is implying that. Of course you’re welcome here, and I don;t know who would say otherwise.
My comment had nothing to do with you being here, or being welcome, or any of that. Here’s what I said: “And you still tend to broad-brush stroke all Sanders supporting progressives. Just a reminder that you are among progressives here, and we’re probably not inclined to accept broad brush stroke stereotypes about what that means.” That’s about a certain kind of statement, where you seem to want to describe “progressives” to us. All I said about that is, we’re probably not inclined to accept stereotypes of that kind. Which is true. If you keep it up, I would imagine you would get more resistance than genuine exchanges.
An example is this:
My other point was I just don’t see the same “hate” toward progressives from moderates that progressives have towards moderates.
First, I have seen that hate from moderates to progressives (the thing you don’t see) and I have seen it in royal abundance. (One of the ways it shows up is people identified as moderate telling progressives “what they are,” which is invariably something negative.) All I take from the comment of yours I quote is that people engaged in political discussion can tend to get confrontive, but in my experience it is individuals from every position (right, center, liberals, leftists) doing it, with no one position doing it any more or less than any other. But then we all think it’s the other guys doing it.
I just think the chances of better conversation increase the less we address each other with that kind of stereotyping.
Fair enough?
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April 19, 2020 at 10:08 pm #113833waterfieldParticipantNevertheless, I do have an opinion which I intend to share-unless your words “you are among progressives here” are meant to imply I’m not welcome here.
Well, obviously, no one is implying that. Of course you’re welcome here, and I don;t know who would say otherwise.
My comment had nothing to do with you being here, or being welcome, or any of that. Here’s what I said: “And you still tend to broad-brush stroke all Sanders supporting progressives. Just a reminder that you are among progressives here, and we’re probably not inclined to accept broad brush stroke stereotypes about what that means.” That’s about a certain kind of statement, where you seem to want to describe “progressives” to us. All I said about that is, we’re probably not inclined to accept stereotypes of that kind. Which is true. If you keep it up, I would imagine you would get more resistance than genuine exchanges.
An example is this:
My other point was I just don’t see the same “hate” toward progressives from moderates that progressives have towards moderates.
First, I have seen that hate from moderates to progressives (the thing you don’t see) and I have seen it in royal abundance. (One of the ways it shows up is people identified as moderate telling progressives “what they are,” which is invariably something negative.) All I take from the comment of yours I quote is that people engaged in political discussion can tend to get confrontive, but in my experience it is individuals from every position (right, center, liberals, leftists) doing it, with no one position doing it any more or less than any other. But then we all think it’s the other guys doing it.
I just think the chances of better conversation increase the less we address each other with that kind of stereotyping.
Fair enough?
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That’s fair. I think I’m going to back off the subject for a while. As someone wrote everyone has a right to an opinion. I only hope that I may have rung a bell or two when people give what I wrote “a second thought”. That’s all.
April 20, 2020 at 1:00 am #113836ZooeyModeratorWell…I’m gonna just throw this out. I don’t think I’ve said this on this board.
I think the best argument to convince a leftist/progressive to vote for Biden is that it’s quite possibly the last chance to vote meaningfully.
If Trump wins. And the GOP has control. They will not only finish the redistricting job on the basis of this year’s census, they will pass more laws restricting/suppressing the vote, and probably put in more unaccountable electric voting machines, and back all that up with courts they will continue to stack. It will be Over over. You won’t be able to elect a progressive in 2024 even if there is one, and that person gets the most votes. They are THAT close to shutting off life support for democracy.
This country is drowning, and the only thing to grab is a rotten, water-logged piece of old driftwood. But that’s all there is. I mean…it would be better if there was a life preserver, but there’s not.
April 20, 2020 at 1:59 am #113837
Eternal RamnationParticipantI think it’s irresponsible to nominate a candidate with a 50 year DC record of being wrong on every issue. Oh but the judges ! Biden trashed Anita Hill and confirmed Scalia and Thomas.Lying for 50 years check plagiarism check multiple sexual assault allegations check authored both the criminal bankruptcy bill ( see student debt crisis ) and the infamous Crime bill ( see mass incarceration) check , support for the Iraq war long after knowing there were no WMD check supported racist policies bragged about working with segregationists check lied about civil rights activism check. Supports continued fracking and accepts million from fossil fuel big pharma/ Health Insurance and Wall Street check said he would consider vetoing M4all if it passed the house check. Watch him on the Anderson Cooper Coronavirus interview letting that guy walk the dog on his own would be irresponsible.
April 20, 2020 at 6:56 am #113841nittany ramModeratorWell…I’m gonna just throw this out. I don’t think I’ve said this on this board.
I think the best argument to convince a leftist/progressive to vote for Biden is that it’s quite possibly the last chance to vote meaningfully.
If Trump wins. And the GOP has control. They will not only finish the redistricting job on the basis of this year’s census, they will pass more laws restricting/suppressing the vote, and probably put in more unaccountable electric voting machines, and back all that up with courts they will continue to stack. It will be Over over. You won’t be able to elect a progressive in 2024 even if there is one, and that person gets the most votes. They are THAT close to shutting off life support for democracy.
This country is drowning, and the only thing to grab is a rotten, water-logged piece of old driftwood. But that’s all there is. I mean…it would be better if there was a life preserver, but there’s not.
Yup. There’s nothing about Biden that makes him a worthwhile candidate.
But 4 more years of Trump could essentially end democracy in this country.
April 20, 2020 at 8:14 am #113842wvParticipant<
Yup. There’s nothing about Biden that makes him a worthwhile candidate.But 4 more years of Trump could essentially end democracy in this country.
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Well, you and zooey are more optimistic than me.
At any rate, I’m old, and i have cat-videos to catch up on today.
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v
April 20, 2020 at 10:59 am #113848nittany ramModeratorWell, you and zooey are more optimistic than me.
At any rate, I’m old, and i have cat-videos to catch up on today.
w
vThat’s not a cat, Magoo.
I’m distracting myself from the political/environmental/medical catastrophe du joir by tinkering with my koi pond. I’m making it a little bigger this year. If you want to feel old, spend the day digging a big hole. So far my lower back isn’t on board with the project.
April 20, 2020 at 11:33 am #113852ZooeyModeratorThat’s not a cat, Magoo.
Oh, there goes Mr. Science again. Listen, a cousin of a friend of mine had a cat looked just like that.
April 20, 2020 at 12:06 pm #113851wvParticipantWell, you and zooey are more optimistic than me.
At any rate, I’m old, and i have cat-videos to catch up on today.
w
vThat’s not a cat, Magoo.
I’m distracting myself from the political/environmental/medical catastrophe du joir by tinkering with my koi pond. I’m making it a little bigger this year. If you want to feel old, spend the day digging a big hole. So far my lower back isn’t on board with the project.
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Ok fine. Here’s a fish video.
I have to go to the store today. I feel like scary background music should be playing.
w
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