Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Krystal Ball on Fox being friendlier than MSNBC
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wv.
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February 11, 2020 at 6:01 pm #111219
wvParticipant“…on MSNBC tonight they called Bernie supporters ‘brown shirts’…….its weird to receive a friendlier reception of Fox than on MSNBC or CNN…..”
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February 12, 2020 at 9:29 am #111238
Billy_TParticipantI’ve been trying to figure out the best way to express this, and I keep failing. But I’ll give it a shot.
In my view, the difference between Sanders being “anti-establishment” and Trump being . . . not at all . . . is a grand canyon’s worth of difference.
I’m not a fan of anyone trying to pair them as two people in the same boat in that sense, and Trump is no victim.
To me, Trump wants exactly what the Establishment wants: More wealth and more power — for himself and his family. The only reason he gets into trouble with them is the way he goes about his acquisition of said wealth and power. They want at least a veneer of decorum and the perception of playing by the rules. They want this largely because they think it’s important to hide how much the game is rigged from the masses so they can keep the golden goose alive. Trump? He knows it’s rigged, cuz he’s been making millions exploiting that rigging his entire life. In fact, he’s always gone many factors above (or below) the normal rigging, needing subterranean methods to make his mint. Cheat students, philanthropists, workers, supply chains, banks, taxpayers, etc. etc . . . even more than the built-in cheating inherent in the capitalist system.
As in, the normalized, legal rigging doesn’t really work so well for him. He needs to go underground to make his fortune, which has never endeared him to his business peers. They’ve never welcomed him into “polite” (rapacious) society, and he’s always lusted for that welcoming.
That’s not “anti-establishment.” That’s wannabe-ism.
Sanders, OTOH, wants an end to a society where wealth and power can be concentrated obscenely. Trump loves the very idea of that concentration. Sanders takes an ethical and moral stand against that concentration. Trump has no ethics or morals. Sanders truly is “anti-establishment.” Trump is just a vulgar, vile crook who wants to be seen as a legit tycoon, who’s supposedly earned his ginormous wealth and power “honestly.”
In short, I don’t think they should ever be paired as “anti-establishment” rebels. Not ever. Nunca Jamas!!
February 12, 2020 at 11:04 am #111244wvParticipantIn short, I don’t think they should ever be paired as “anti-establishment” rebels. Not ever. Nunca Jamas!!
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Well, we could quibble about whether Trump is really anti-establishment, but that would require fine-tuning and defining the term.
The thing is, its the ‘perception’. He’s ‘perceived’ as anti-establishment by the tea-party-types, and the evangelicals and the organized-racists. Thats a LOT of voters, who see him as anti-establishment.
We leftists are a small small small minority. WE see him as Super-Turbo-Charged-Establishment. But we dont count for much, BT.
The ‘perception’ among most voters is that Trump and Bernie are anti-establishment. It matters because Bernie can cash in on that, perhaps. Some rightwingers might switch over to Bernie. Cause of that perception.
w
vFebruary 12, 2020 at 12:04 pm #111247Billy_TParticipantIn short, I don’t think they should ever be paired as “anti-establishment” rebels. Not ever. Nunca Jamas!!
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Well, we could quibble about whether Trump is really anti-establishment, but that would require fine-tuning and defining the term.
The thing is, its the ‘perception’. He’s ‘perceived’ as anti-establishment by the tea-party-types, and the evangelicals and the organized-racists. Thats a LOT of voters, who see him as anti-establishment.
We leftists are a small small small minority. WE see him as Super-Turbo-Charged-Establishment. But we dont count for much, BT.
The ‘perception’ among most voters is that Trump and Bernie are anti-establishment. It matters because Bernie can cash in on that, perhaps. Some rightwingers might switch over to Bernie. Cause of that perception.
w
vYeah, I agree with all of that. Tragic, isn’t it? Those perceptions?
Sanders trashes Trump often on the stump. Which makes me like him a hell of a lot more than I already do. He’s not trying to do what some of his fans in the punditry seem to be trying. He’s not trying to create some bridge to Trump, in order to appeal to his base. Bernie’s just being Bernie, and if he gets some crossovers, kewl. But he never panders to them.
This is just me, but I don’t think KB should go on Carlson trying to forge bridges like that. Ever. Basically, “they’re both victims of the establishment/press” etc. To me, that’s absolute nonsense. Sanders is. Trump isn’t. Trump earns all of his bad press and then some.
Going on there is fine. But she should stick to her progressive guns and not even hint at some “common cause” with far-right, uber-racist, migrant-hating, leftist-hating,” global-warming-is-a-hoax Carlson, Hannity and company.
February 12, 2020 at 12:23 pm #111249Billy_TParticipantAlso, to me, those right-wing libertarians are wannabes too.
They basically are pissed off at not being let into the country club, which they lust for. More often than not, right-wing libertarians, depending upon how old they are, are either hoping to own a business, own a small business already, are big fishes in small ponds . . . but long to be big fishes in the biggest ponds.
They don’t have anything against those country clubs or hoarding massive amounts of wealth, or doing what needs to be done to gain that wealth. They’re pissed off that they’re not allowed inside the club yet.
Leftists like Sanders say those clubs shouldn’t exist at all. We shouldn’t exclude people, especially based on ability to pay, etc.
So it’s a seriously different kind of anger toward “the establishment,” IMO.
The right wants even more concentration of wealth and power. If they don’t have it at the moment, they’re really, really pissed about that and want to blame someon — usually POCs, migrants, leftists, etc.
The left doesn’t think that concentration should exist at all, or to obscene degrees, depending upon where we fall along the leftward spectrum.
I struggle thinking of a way to bridge that divide.
February 12, 2020 at 1:04 pm #111254
nittany ramModeratorBillyT wrote:
I’m not a fan of anyone trying to pair them as two people in the same boat in that sense, and Trump is no victim.
Me too. A voter in NH interviewed on the radio said it best…”Bernie is the anti-trump”.
Bernie is the least like Trump of any of the Dem candidates.
A lot of people think that what Sanders and Trump have in common is that they both are at the extreme ends of their parties. But there’s nothing extreme about Trump’s views from a GOP perspective. He wants the same things they all want – deregulation, tax breaks for the rich, elimination of social programs…He’s just more brazen about it.
February 12, 2020 at 4:59 pm #111258wvParticipant.
there’s nothing extreme about Trump’s views from a GOP perspective. He wants the same things they all want – deregulation, tax breaks for the rich, elimination of social programs…He’s just more brazen about it.=====================
True, but its not the whole story is it. I mean if you ask TRUMP SUPPORTERS, about how THEY experience him, they will often say he is Anti-Establishment. He’s played that card masterfully. He blew up all his Rep Opponents with that tactic.
So while leftists like us, might see him as just a Super-Rep, THEY see him as an ANTI-establishment-REP.
w
vFebruary 12, 2020 at 9:47 pm #111269
ZooeyModerator.
there’s nothing extreme about Trump’s views from a GOP perspective. He wants the same things they all want – deregulation, tax breaks for the rich, elimination of social programs…He’s just more brazen about it.=====================
True, but its not the whole story is it. I mean if you ask TRUMP SUPPORTERS, about how THEY experience him, they will often say he is Anti-Establishment. He’s played that card masterfully. He blew up all his Rep Opponents with that tactic.
So while leftists like us, might see him as just a Super-Rep, THEY see him as an ANTI-establishment-REP.
w
vRight. But that’s because they see the establishment as professors who know things, and come to conclusions that require them to adjust.
February 13, 2020 at 8:54 am #111270wvParticipant.
there’s nothing extreme about Trump’s views from a GOP perspective. He wants the same things they all want – deregulation, tax breaks for the rich, elimination of social programs…He’s just more brazen about it.=====================
True, but its not the whole story is it. I mean if you ask TRUMP SUPPORTERS, about how THEY experience him, they will often say he is Anti-Establishment. He’s played that card masterfully. He blew up all his Rep Opponents with that tactic.
So while leftists like us, might see him as just a Super-Rep, THEY see him as an ANTI-establishment-REP.
w
vRight. But that’s because they see the establishment as professors who know things, and come to conclusions that require them to adjust.
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True, there’s plenty of toxic anti-intellectualism out there. But…there’s also some valid-anti-intellectualism too, right? The intellectuals and the establishment wanted to foist Hillary/Obama/Bill-Clinton on the peepulz. So…itz all twisted and fucked up.
I’m watchin Joker on dvd, right now, btw. I’ve seen about 40 minutes so far.
Damn fine, visually. Great physical-acting by Joaquin. …he’s no Cesar Romero though 🙂w
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