Kickoffs are Stupid and Bad…Discuss

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Viewing 16 posts - 1 through 16 (of 16 total)
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  • November 23, 2018 at 6:08 pm #94366
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    He convinced me.

    November 23, 2018 at 7:03 pm #94369
    Avatar photoAgamemnon
    Participant

    recovering a kick off for a TD has happened before. St. Louis vs Dallas. StL kicks off. Dallas has 2 guys back in the endzone. The ball fallss between them. They both figure the other guys is going to run the ball out and they take off to block for a return. StL recovers for a TD. The funniest thing I ever saw. The ball is just laying there and they are flying up field to block. LOL

    It would not bother me if they took kickoffs out of the game, but then, what about onside kicks?

    Agamemnon

    November 23, 2018 at 7:25 pm #94370
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    Did you watch the video?

    That – to me – was the big disadvantage to doing away with kickoffs. No onsides.

    But what he proposes in lieu of kickoffs is that the team that scores gets the ball at…I think the 30…but it is 4th and 15, or 4th and 10. So they will usually punt. But they can go for it if they choose to. Either a fake punt, or line up and run with the QB. Either way, you have a regular football play with strategy. Onsides – all kickoffs, according to him – are just without strategy. Onsides are a fluke bounce. He builds a whole case on how kickoffs are stupid and bad (and the most dangerous play, even when a team takes a touchback).

    November 23, 2018 at 8:12 pm #94372
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator
    Zooey wrote:

    Onsides are a fluke bounce. He builds a whole case on how kickoffs are stupid and bad (and the most dangerous play, even when a team takes a touchback).

    Jeff Wilkins was actually great at OSKs. Wasn’t just a fluke.

    November 23, 2018 at 8:34 pm #94373
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator
    zn wrote:
    Zooey wrote:

    Onsides are a fluke bounce. He builds a whole case on how kickoffs are stupid and bad (and the most dangerous play, even when a team takes a touchback).

    Jeff Wilkins was actually great at OSKs. Wasn’t just a fluke.

    Yeah, I thought about him.

    He played on turf which is advantageous.

    But the injury risk is still there on kickoffs regardless of how excellent the Rams are historically compared to the other wanna-be teams in the NFL.

    November 23, 2018 at 9:00 pm #94374
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator
    Zooey wrote:

    But the injury risk is still there on kickoffs regardless of how excellent the Rams are historically compared to the other wanna-be teams in the NFL.

    Yeah. I was just getting in a little “Rams fan bragging” aside there.

    November 23, 2018 at 9:15 pm #94375
    Avatar photoAgamemnon
    Participant
    Zooey wrote:

    Did you watch the video?

    That – to me – was the big disadvantage to doing away with kickoffs. No onsides.

    But what he proposes in lieu of kickoffs is that the team that scores gets the ball at…I think the 30…but it is 4th and 15, or 4th and 10. So they will usually punt. But they can go for it if they choose to. Either a fake punt, or line up and run with the QB. Either way, you have a regular football play with strategy. Onsides – all kickoffs, according to him – are just without strategy. Onsides are a fluke bounce. He builds a whole case on how kickoffs are stupid and bad (and the most dangerous play, even when a team takes a touchback).

    I watched about 2 minutes. Then I felt he had nothing really intelligent to say, so I quit wasting my time.

    Agamemnon

    November 24, 2018 at 9:59 am #94395
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator
    Agamemnon wrote:

    I watched about 2 minutes. Then I felt he had nothing really intelligent to say, so I quit wasting my time.

    Watch from the 5 minute mark to 8 minutes. That is the core argument. He started with his weakest point and worked his way to his strongest points.

    November 24, 2018 at 10:22 am #94396
    Avatar photoAgamemnon
    Participant
    Zooey wrote:
    Agamemnon wrote:

    I watched about 2 minutes. Then I felt he had nothing really intelligent to say, so I quit wasting my time.

    Watch from the 5 minute mark to 8 minutes. That is the core argument. He started with his weakest point and worked his way to his strongest points.

    You have to have a mechanism to start play. Maybe you can do like they did for the jumpball in basketball. Just eliminate it. I don’t think you have ot have a kickoff. His stuff just doesn’t convince me that it is Stupid and Bad. I think kickoffs are ok. Show me something better.

    Agamemnon

    November 24, 2018 at 10:39 am #94398
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    He supports the Schiano Proposal that I described above: the team that scores gets the ball at their own 30 and it’s 4th down. In most cases, that team will punt (which is safer statistically). But they can go for it, keeping the game alive in the late 4th quarter in the same way the onside kick does. And, in fact, the probability of making that 4th down conversion is greater (but still not good) than the probability of recovering an onside kick.

    November 24, 2018 at 1:19 pm #94408
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator
    Zooey wrote:

    He supports the Schiano Proposal that I described above: the team that scores gets the ball at their own 30 and it’s 4th down. In most cases, that team will punt (which is safer statistically). But they can go for it, keeping the game alive in the late 4th quarter in the same way the onside kick does. And, in fact, the probability of making that 4th down conversion is greater (but still not good) than the probability of recovering an onside kick.

    It actually all sounds reasonable to me.

    This would mean, of course, that we would have to let go of all of the “holding” and “illegal block in the back” penalties the Rams earn on kick returns.

    But sometimes progress requires sacrifice.

    …

    November 24, 2018 at 2:02 pm #94416
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator
    zn wrote:
    Zooey wrote:

    He supports the Schiano Proposal that I described above: the team that scores gets the ball at their own 30 and it’s 4th down. In most cases, that team will punt (which is safer statistically). But they can go for it, keeping the game alive in the late 4th quarter in the same way the onside kick does. And, in fact, the probability of making that 4th down conversion is greater (but still not good) than the probability of recovering an onside kick.

    It actually all sounds reasonable to me.

    This would mean, of course, that we would have to let go of all of the “holding” and “illegal block in the back” penalties the Rams earn on kick returns.

    But sometimes progress requires sacrifice.

    …

    I’m in favor of this change. I opposed it until I saw this video because there IS excitement in KO returns. But he convinced me with the arguments that A) it is by far the most dangerous play in the game, and 2) it doesn’t actually make any difference, even if your favorite team happens to possess Dante Hall or Tony Horne. That was compelling to me. It makes little difference if the KO return goes to the 18 or the 42.

    The Schiano proposal keeps games alive (like the onside kick) down to the last 2 minutes of (2 score) games, and it reduces head trauma. And I think it is actually kind of Awesome that the team that scores retains control of the ball, albeit in a disadvantageous position.

    Up until now, I was thinking, “Yeah, sure, kickoffs are dangerous, but anything else would suck (i.e. just giving the other team the ball at the 20 or 25). And it kills the Onside Kick which is an important element.”

    This proposal solves all that.

    I vote Aye.

    November 24, 2018 at 4:47 pm #94421
    Avatar photocanadaram
    Participant

    I know getting rid of the kickoff has been suggested for a few years now, but I’d never really had a strong opinion about it. Recently having read some books about brain injuries I’ve started to feel that eliminating the kickoff is a good idea. I like the Schiano idea actually. This video is the first that I’ve heard of it. The narrator would prefer a 4th and ten scenario, but I’d prefer to stay with Schiano’S plan or even go to 4th and 20 because it seems like there is already an increase in scoring in today’s NFL. I don’t want even the slightest chance even more inflated scoring. Anyway, I liked that video.

    November 24, 2018 at 4:49 pm #94422
    Avatar photocanadaram
    Participant

    BTW, I’m glad zn brought up Wilkins. He was the first thing that I thought of when the idea of onside kicks was brought up. He was amazing at it. In fact, if I recall correctly he even recovered one of his own onside kicks in a comeback win over Houston in 2005.

    November 24, 2018 at 5:25 pm #94424
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    that’s an interesting proposal.

    in this scenario, hekker becomes even more powerful.

    November 24, 2018 at 10:42 pm #94433
    Avatar photowv
    Participant
    canadaram wrote:

    I know getting rid of the kickoff has been suggested for a few years now, but I’d never really had a strong opinion about it. Recently having read some books about brain injuries I’ve started to feel that eliminating the kickoff is a good idea. I like the Schiano idea actually. This video is the first that I’ve heard of it. The narrator would prefer a 4th and ten scenario, but I’d prefer to stay with Schiano’S plan or even go to 4th and 20 because it seems like there is already an increase in scoring in today’s NFL. I don’t want even the slightest chance even more inflated scoring. Anyway, I liked that video.

    ================

    If they were to adopt it, I agree 4th and 20 makes more sense to me. I dont think the percentage should stray to far from the onside kick success rate.

    It would be much safer. Probably save some lives.

    But i like kickoffs.

    Shit.

    w
    v

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