Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Rams Huddle › If Fisher does not top 9-7 this year, does SK fire him?
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TackleDummy.
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June 24, 2015 at 2:29 pm #26718
znModeratorWhat do YOU think SK does if Fisher does not top 9-7 this year? And do you agree with what you think SK does? What would YOU do?
As usual in this type of informal poll thread, I am setting it in motion, but won’t kick in until later.
June 24, 2015 at 5:10 pm #26727
nittany ramModeratorIf the Rams are moving to LA I think he keeps Fisher through the move no matter what. If the Rams aren’t moving then I think Fisher could very well be fired if they don’t finish at least 9-7.
June 25, 2015 at 1:38 pm #26737
rflParticipantIf the Rams are moving to LA I think he keeps Fisher through the move no matter what. If the Rams aren’t moving then I think Fisher could very well be fired if they don’t finish at least 9-7.
Yeah this is the thing about this anomalous year. Whether Fish goes or stays is heavily conditioned by the question of whether the team goes back to LA.
Suppose there were no talk of leaving, and the team was still stably set in the community. In that case, without question, he would have to get to a winning mark. I don’t think anyone would say anything different. He would be the definition of a hot seat coach.
But as long as the FO thinks it’s moving–and, really, even if it stays after a tumultuous year with uncertain fan relations–then there is no way he gets fired whatever happens.
Indeed, we come back to what has often been said. A big reason SK hired Fisher was his experience in shepherding a moving team. I don’t think there has been ANY chance of firing Fisher THROUGH the year of the move, or the year that a move is decisively rejected. It just isn’t about field performance right now.
Now. Having said all that …
IN FOOTBALL TERMS … this is simply the last year a FO could endure another mediocre performance that fails to take the step up to fulfillment of potential. If he can’t do it this year and we don’t move, then the FO will be derelict if they keep him on.
Me personally? I’d let him know. Win, baby. Win now. Or we’ll find someone else to give it a whirl.
By virtue of the absurd ...
June 25, 2015 at 2:44 pm #26740
wvParticipantI’d probably give him another year, no matter what.
I just haven’t seen any “Linehan level” bad coaching.I simply can…not…ignore the Bradford injuries. Two
years in a row. How did Bruce Arians team look
after Carson went down?I’m not sold on Fisher yet, but I’m not unsold
on him either — if that makes any sense.If Fisher doesn’t have a winning team by year 9
though, I’m gonna start lighting the torches.w
vJune 25, 2015 at 2:49 pm #26741
HerzogParticipantI’d probably give him another year, no matter what.
I just haven’t seen any “Linehan level” bad coaching.I simply can…not…ignore the Bradford injuries. Two
years in a row. How did Bruce Arians team look
after Carson went down?I’m not sold on Fisher yet, but I’m not unsold
on him either — if that makes any sense.If Fisher doesn’t have a winning team by year 9
though, I’m gonna start lighting the torches.w
vI’m with you on this. Well, not the year 9 thing, but everything else.
June 25, 2015 at 3:05 pm #26742rflParticipantI’d probably give him another year, no matter what.
I just haven’t seen any “Linehan level” bad coaching.I simply can…not…ignore the Bradford injuries. Two
years in a row. How did Bruce Arians team look
after Carson went down?Well, of course, we’ve been around this block before. But, a couple of clarifying points.
I don’t see how Linehan is relevant. He shoulda been fired after about 2 weeks. That really was bad coaching. I don’t think anyone would say that Fish is at that level. I certainly don’t.
And I don’t think one needs to ignore the Bradford injuries. That has never been the basis of my complaints. I don’t even blame him for the W/L or playoff results as such.
As I have said, I blame him for failing to lead teams that approach their evident ceiling of competitiveness. I felt I was looking at a team with poor QBing, but which wasn’t approaching its resulting ceiling. As I have argued ad nauseum, the evidence can be found in their poor starts, their erratic performance from a highly talented defense, and, above all, the fact that, even AFTER the injuries, they held and then collapsed from winning positions in several games which would have significantly raised their W/O record. The performances in the DAL and 1st SF games showed a legitimate competitive potential which the team could not sustain long after Sam got hurt.
Anyway, here’s the point. The original question was whether Fish should get more than 1 more year. Now, let’s take your point. Fish deserves a chance to show what he can do with decent QBing through the season. OK. Let’s stipulate that he deserves that.
Alright, give him that year. Let’s say Foles stays healthy and plays decently, at a mid-table level. And let’s say there are no crippling waves of injuries anywhere else … for once.
And let’s say we STILL go 6-10 or 7-9. With all the talent acquisition and raising of the potential ceiling … you would STILL give Fisher ANOTHER year to break out of mediocrity? Really?
You’re a far more patient man than I am.
By virtue of the absurd ...
June 25, 2015 at 3:18 pm #26743wvParticipant… OK. Let’s stipulate that he deserves that.
Alright, give him that year. Let’s say Foles stays healthy and plays decently, at a mid-table level. And let’s say there are no crippling waves of injuries anywhere else … for once.
And let’s say we STILL go 6-10 or 7-9. With all the talent acquisition and raising of the potential ceiling … you would STILL give Fisher ANOTHER year to break out of mediocrity? Really?
You’re a far more <nobr>patient</nobr> man than I am.
Well, I am pretty patient in general. So there’s that.
But as for your example….I just cant conceive of that actually happening. I mean with the talent this team
has the only thing that will derail it, imho is injuries. I just reject the idea that they could stay healthy and STILL lose. I cannot even imagine that.If it happens then, I guess I will be….nonplussed.
w
vJune 25, 2015 at 3:34 pm #26745rflParticipantWell, I am pretty patient in general. So there’s that.
But as for your example….I just cant conceive of that actually happening. I mean with the talent this team
has the only thing that will derail it, imho is injuries. I just reject the idea that they could stay healthy and STILL lose. I cannot even imagine that.If it happens then, I guess I will be….nonplussed.
w
vYou know, I actually think we agree on this. At least fundamentally.
My emphasis would be the responsibility that follows from what you’re saying. Given decent health, then what you are saying is that Fisher & Co. would be RESPONSIBLE for delivering a winning team.
Which is why I would say that, if Fisher manages to achieve what you can’t conceive of, a losing year with good health and this talent, then he surely would deserve to be fired.
Right?
But of course he won’t, given the relocation issue.
By virtue of the absurd ...
June 25, 2015 at 4:02 pm #26748rflParticipantI mean with the talent this team has the only thing that will derail it, imho is injuries.
Just another word about the injury issue. A general point.
Apart from cases where injuries might be foreseeable (and I don’t put Sam in that category) one can’t–or shouldn’t–judge a coach’s performance before or after the season on that basis.
Any roster is vulnerable to key injuries. Pre-season projections cannot really take them into account. One always needs to assume a decent level of health. The Sam injuries are great examples as to why.
But post-season judgments should also discount injuries. And this is where I tend to differ from many folks.
I would agree that one can’t hold a coach or team responsible for lowered results after key injuries.
But I disagree with the form that this consideration often takes. Just saying, “Hey, Team X can’t be expected to have won because of injuries Y and Z” is to me an inadequate form of assessment. After injuries, a team then has whatever ceiling of potential that results. And it is against THAT resulting ceiling that it needs to be judged. That’s why I always stress the evident performances of the team that followed Sam’s injury. I don’t see how anyone could argue that last year’s team played up to its potential in more than 4-5 games. That has always been my concern.
And, really, I think all assessments should be about that, not about W/L. You look at a team and ask, is it playing to its potential? If so, then you have to rate the coaching staff highly. If not, then the coaching staff has to own the failure.
If a team is playing at its ceiling and is still losing, then the FO needs to raise the talent level. And our FO has been doing that. That’s why I like to separate Snead from Fisher in evaluating the organization. I think Snead is doing very, very well.
I don’t think Fisher has done well leading the team to play to its ceiling.
By virtue of the absurd ...
June 25, 2015 at 4:30 pm #26749znModeratorApart from cases where injuries might be foreseeable (and I don’t put Sam in that category) one can’t–or shouldn’t–judge a coach’s performance before or after the season on that basis.
Any roster is vulnerable to key injuries. Pre-season projections cannot really take them into account. One always needs to assume a decent level of health. The Sam injuries are great examples as to why.
Good discussion as always, but I jump in here to drive a point home: yes, you have to assume a decent level of health. Maybe I don’t know what you mean by “one can’t–or shouldn’t–judge a coach’s performance before or after the season” based on injuries. To me, though, it has always been important to account for how extensive injuries to one key unit can impede its effectiveness to the point of taking either the whole defense or offense down with it.
For example (rhetorical question), how well would the defense do in 99 if they lost all but say one of the DL players? Carter out, Wistrom out, Agnew out.
This is an old thing of mine. What we’ve seen is that happening a lot to the Rams OL, starting probably in 2006 and certainly having a terrible effect in 2007. In fact you can line up Bradford’s TD% and INT% in 2012 with the first set of 8 games where 8 different players manned the 3 spots at center, LOG, and LOT, and then with the 2nd set of 8 games where the OL was relatively healthy. Last year;s OL started off shaky because of the injury and recovery issues they had during the summer, which limited the time they played together as a unit. Then when they got healthy, they got smacked again by injuries in the Chiefs game. Comparing Davis’s performances in each set of games before and after the Chiefs game, you can see the direct effects of that on him (that’s even with a high qb rating against Seattle).
June 25, 2015 at 4:50 pm #26750rflParticipantFor example (rhetorical question), how well would the defense do in 99 if they lost all but say one of the DL players? Carter out, Wistrom out, Agnew out.
Not sure we are communicating on this.
I never mean to disregard injuries. Indeed, I consider them crucial.
All I am saying is that a staff and a team need to be judged according to whatever potential remains AFTER the injury. In the case you mention here, obviously, we would not have won a ring. And that would not have been Vermiel’s responsibility. Our ceiling would have been lowered.
All I have ever argued is that you CAN hold coaches and players responsible for competing as well as they can with whatever talent and firepower they have available. Take your scenario. Would we have seen the remnants of that defense playing their asses off or lying down and succumbing? A coaching staff is responsible to lead the team to do the former.
Which was the whole point of Vermeil’s famous remark about playing good football with Kurt after Green went down. And that’s what coaches and players always say about injuries. The remaining guys need to step up and compete their asses off. Take things as far as they can.
As I say over and over, I don’t essentially hold Fisher responsible for the W/L record. I hold him responsible for fielding a team not ready to compete, given its potential and capabilities before and after injuries. I don’t see how anyone can feel that he got the best of what that team was capable last year AFTER the injuries are factored in.
By virtue of the absurd ...
June 25, 2015 at 4:56 pm #26751
joemadParticipantI think Kroenke keeps Fisher for awhile…. he kept George Karl as coach of the Denver Nuggets for 9 years before finally canning him last season, this after round 1 playoff exits for 8 of Karl’s 9 seasons in Denver…….
also, as majority owner of the Premier League’s Aresenal team, the manager has been in place since 1996.
I think Sam likes continuity
June 25, 2015 at 5:05 pm #26752rflParticipantI think Kroenke keeps Fisher for awhile…. he kept George Karl as coach of the Denver Nuggets for 9 years before finally canning him last season, this after round 1 playoff exits for 8 of Karl’s 9 seasons in Denver…….
also, as majority owner of the Premier League’s Aresenal team, the manager has been in place since 1996.
I think Sam likes continuity
A good point. I agree that SK tends to be more patient than most owners are.
I wonder how many Arsenal fans are happy that he is so patient with Arsene Wenger?
By virtue of the absurd ...
June 25, 2015 at 5:23 pm #26753wvParticipantI would agree that one can’t hold a coach or team responsible for lowered results after key injuries.
But I disagree with the form that this consideration often takes. Just saying, “Hey, Team X can’t be expected to have won because of injuries Y and Z” is to me an inadequate form of assessment. After injuries, a team then has whatever ceiling of potential that results. And it is against THAT resulting ceiling that it needs to be judged….
I don’t think Fisher has done well leading the team to play to its ceiling.
Ok, well i agree with your big point that you have to judge the coach AFTER factoring
in the injury situation — In principle, sure, i agree with that. But I also think its REAL
HARD to figure out what a team’s ceiling is, if say, the OLine AND the starting QB are injured.
I mean, how does one really get a handle on what the ceiling ‘is’ given that situation? I dunno.Did Fisher coach intelligently last year? I dunno. He certainly didn’t understand that GW was
throwing too much at the young defense. And apparently, he is simplifying the offense too,
so, he must look back and think BS gave the young players too much to think about.I dunno.
You do not want anyone to let Fisher off the hook by breezily dismissing the teams failures
by focusing on the Injuries — I get that 🙂
I dunno, though.At any rate, I got a very good feeling about this team. I think
they have finally turned the corner. Playoffs. Ten wins. Good solid team.
Not elite, but good. That is what i see coming to our tv’s this year 🙂w
vJune 25, 2015 at 5:38 pm #26754
PancakeParticipantI think SK gives Fisher a pass because of all the “moving” turmoil. I happen to believe the Rams are moving and who else is more experienced dealing with that scenario than Fisher. Nobody.
On the other hand I agree with WV that the team has turned the corner. At least from a talent stand point. I think the Rams will put up 10 wins this season and potentially more. We might be talking Fisher extension instead.
June 25, 2015 at 5:49 pm #26755znModeratorapparently, he is simplifying the offense too,
To be fair? They did not say they’re simplifying the OFFENSE.
What they’re doing is simplifying the playcalling terminology. That’s all they’ve really said, anyway.
What this tells me is that Cigz has more recently coached in the college ranks, where that’s a trend. Schott, in contrast, began as a pro qb coach in 2001.
June 25, 2015 at 5:57 pm #26758znModeratorWhich was the whole point of Vermeil’s famous remark about playing good football with Kurt after Green went down. And that’s what coaches and players always say about injuries. The remaining guys need to step up and compete their asses off. Take things as far as they can.
But in the case of extensively damaged OLs—with multiple simultaneous injury replacements—they can’t step up and compete at an effective level.
Warner is of course a rarety. Most teams don’t lose a starting qb with a good or great future starter on the bench. In fact the Rams were so lucky with that it happened twice–Warner for Green, Bulger for Warner.
In the first 5 games of 2007, for example, the Rams fielded 5 different OL combinations. I submit that once you get that deep into your bench (and your recently signed injury replacements from the street) you can’t compete anywhere near effectively enough. And it’s not just the fact of fielding back-ups. The unit has to cohere, and can’t do that well enough under those conditions.
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June 25, 2015 at 6:03 pm #26759rflParticipantOk, well i agree with your big point that you have to judge the coach AFTER factoring
in the injury situation — In principle, sure, i agree with that. But I also think its REAL
HARD to figure out what a team’s ceiling is, if say, the OLine AND the starting QB are injured.It’s a good point. Of course, all assessments are pretty subjective. In the end, we all make judgments about performance, measuring it against some sense of a relevant standard.
I guess that’s why I cite evidence that seems to me to be fair. You’ve heard the list. But if I cite the lack of preparedness at the beginning of the season, the brilliant DL that could not get a sack, the repeated collapses from winning positions that one would normally think of as pretty safe … I feel like those are pretty good indicators.
Did Fisher coach intelligently last year? I dunno. He certainly didn’t understand that GW was throwing too much at the young defense.
Seems to me that you’ve provided your own evidence here. Fisher hired GW, watched him coach a seriously under-performing defense through pre-season, and then waited 4-5 games to do much about it. Isn’t that an indictment in itself–your indictment? And how do we know that whatever our ceiling is won’t be subverted AGAIN this year by poor preparedness or a DC who doesn’t get how to use his players?
I agree with you about our talent.
But I have yet to see Fisher effectively lead our Rams to play disciplined, competitive football more than a few times a year and long after we’d fallen out of the race. I’ll trust him when I see him start to get a handle on the team’s competitiveness.
By virtue of the absurd ...
June 25, 2015 at 6:17 pm #26760znModeratorguess that’s why I cite evidence that seems to me to be fair. You’ve heard the list. But if I cite the lack of preparedness at the beginning of the season, the brilliant DL that could not get a sack, the repeated collapses from winning positions that one would normally think of as pretty safe … I feel like those are pretty good indicators.
For a lot of people, though, those things are not evidence, they’re symptoms to be analyzed. And different people arrive at different conclusions about them.
What I saw on defense at first, for example, mirrored or echoed what I saw in 2011 with the offense. It wasn’t in sync yet. The players themselves talked about spending extra meetings just trying to get the defensive system down. They talk now about how they didn’t really know the defense. In a situation like that, same as early 2011 with the offense, players make big mistakes.
I saw the whole sacks things differently, for example. I thought they had to adjust at the back end and play the safeties in such a way that they could quickly shut down short, quick passes. In fact once they started doing that, the Rams safety play in 2014 was, IMO, about as good at coming up and making stops as I have ever seen it, at least since the old days. I saw Quinn having to get used to being the center of attention (with people having studied him in the off-season), I saw Langford being less effective in those conditions than Donald would later be. I saw Hayes playing at less that 100% because of his surgery, but still being forced to play in spite of that because Long was out.
I also look back at Wms’s past and don’t see him as being sometimes good—he has a few stretches of consecutive seasons where his defenses have been surperb.
So I see you taking a lot of things as evidence which, to me, are more like (as I said) symptoms, with different explanations accounting for them.
Anyway in the end this is just opinion from me, too. Truth is, I anticipate seeing how they do with the system under their belt, new blood ready to step up, and young talent (including, for me, Gaines, McDonald, Ogletree, and Donald) capable of taking a next step. (That’s not a certainty, but of course it is a possibility).
A season like 2014 is just going to produce competing viewpoints. To me, it would be strange if it didn’t.
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June 25, 2015 at 8:14 pm #26762znModeratorI’ll trust him when I see him start to get a handle on the team’s competitiveness.
Oh, and. To me, that’s fair.
June 26, 2015 at 12:24 pm #26773wvParticipantI think SK gives Fisher a pass because of all the “moving” turmoil. I happen to believe the Rams are moving and who else is more experienced dealing with that scenario than Fisher. Nobody.
On the other hand I agree with WV that the team has turned the corner. At least from a talent stand point. I think the Rams will put up 10 wins this season and potentially more. We might be talking Fisher extension instead.
We are gonna see some good football this year Pancake.
I’m excited.w
vJune 26, 2015 at 12:33 pm #26774wvParticipantOk, well i agree with your big point that you have to judge the coach AFTER factoring
in the injury situation — In principle, sure, i agree with that. But I also think its REAL
HARD to figure out what a team’s ceiling is, if say, the OLine AND the starting QB are injured.It’s a good point. Of course, all assessments are pretty subjective. In the end, we all make judgments about performance, measuring it against some sense of a relevant standard.
I guess that’s why I cite evidence that seems to me to be fair. You’ve heard the list. But if I cite the lack of preparedness at the beginning of the season, the brilliant DL that could not get a sack, the repeated collapses from winning positions that one would normally think of as pretty safe … I feel like those are pretty good indicators.
Did Fisher coach intelligently last year? I dunno. He certainly didn’t understand that GW was throwing too much at the young defense.
Seems to me that you’ve provided your own evidence here. Fisher hired GW, watched him coach a seriously under-performing defense through pre-season, and then waited 4-5 games to do much about it. Isn’t that an indictment in itself–your indictment? And how do we know that whatever our ceiling is won’t be subverted AGAIN this year by poor preparedness or a DC who doesn’t get how to use his players?
I agree with you about our talent.
But I have yet to see Fisher effectively lead our Rams to play disciplined, competitive football more than a few times a year and long after we’d fallen out of the race. I’ll trust him when I see him start to get a handle on the team’s competitiveness.
Well, we both think Fisher failed to see that GW was throwing too much at them,
and failed to reign him in quickly, but you seem to draw a harsher conclusion
about it, than I do.I think we both agree coaches all make plenty of mistakes. Even the Walshes and Nolls and Vermeils.
I think Fisher has been a mixed bag so far.
w
vJune 26, 2015 at 4:27 pm #26787PancakeParticipantI think so WV. I really do. I think the Rams have an elite Defense that can carry them pretty far this year. If the Offense clicks the Rams are going to be a scary team to face for everyone.
June 26, 2015 at 8:36 pm #26793wvParticipantI think so WV. I really do. I think the Rams have an elite Defense that can carry them pretty far this year. If the Offense clicks the Rams are going to be a scary team to face for everyone.
Well, when Fisher looked at last years team, he HAD to
see that they had a lot of pure talent,
but the bonehead miscommunication was killing them,
the QB injuries were killing them,
the OLine mess was killing them,
and at times the Run D was bad,
and the killer Turnovers were…um, killing them.So, they simplified the verbiage, brought in a new QB, drafted young healthy studs on the OLine,
and brought in Fairley the DT and Ayers the LB.Not to mention the addition of Gurley.
So…I’m expecting playoffs. This will be a better team than
last year.w
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This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by
wv.
June 27, 2015 at 8:52 am #26812
TackleDummyParticipantWhat do YOU think SK does if Fisher does not top 9-7 this year? And do you agree with what you think SK does? What would YOU do?
One possibility is that SK sells the Rams to St. Louis interests by the end of the 2015 season. There are a couple of reasons I think this is possible, maybe even likely, due to a couple of reasons I have already posted. If that is the case the new owner would be making such decisions. And the new owner might want to hire his own people no matter what the record or he might like the current front office group (Demoff, Snead, and Fisher) and want to maintain continuity.
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