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March 5, 2015 at 1:23 am #19473znModerator
Overall NFL Draft Success Rate
http://occamskangaroo.blogspot.com/2013/06/overall-draft-sucess-rate.html
I wanted to explore this idea, of how often draft picks succeed, but there really is no way to do this that is foolproof, or won’t spark some arguments. Any measurement you use is going to have its shortcomings. Do you base it on how many games a player started? Plenty of guys end up starting, even if they are pretty bad. How about Pro Bowl or All Pro selections? Eh, that is kind of hit and miss too. Lots of players get selected to these All Star teams, based on past reputation, rather than their current playing ability, while good players on bad teams get overlooked.
Still, if we can accept that this will be somewhat inexact, I think a fairly decent picture of what is going on can be achieved. No matter how I try to lay this out, there will undoubtedly be people who raise some ‘what ifs’ or ‘yeah, buts’ about the views I have. I’m just shooting for a rough ballpark figure, to get an adequate approximation of the truth.
“I think you have to divide it into top 12 and bottom 20. If you’re in the top 12, it ought to be in the .640 range. That’s about 4.5 guys on average per year out of the seven. You measure that at the end of three years and what you are measuring is whether or not those guys become winning players, guys that contribute to wins. Bottom 20 is .571, that’s four out of seven…”- Bill Polian, former GM of the Colts
“If you look historically, teams get 2.3 (32.8% of the 7 picks) starters per draft and as a team, I think you need to strive to get 3 starters per draft (42.8% of the 7 picks) , or I should say players worthy of starting.”- Mike Reinfeldt, former GM of the Titans
In both of these cases, I think these GMs are blatantly full of sh*t. Mike Reinfeldt is closer to the truth, but is still probably overestimating a bit. Polian’s claims/expectations, on the other hand, appear to be wishful thinking. Polian seems to factor undrafted free agents into his calculation, which you really shouldn’t. The “guys that contribute to wins” line is also extremely vague. There is also a tendency for people to grade these things on a curve, where late round players aren’t counted as failures due to the lower expectations people have of them. Of course, when a late round player performs well, suddenly the people involved want that to be included in their resume.
For our purposes, I’m just interested in knowing what percentage of all the players selected became meaningful contributors, regardless of round. If a first rounder busts, but a seventh rounder blossoms it all balances out in my eyes. One of the more acceptable measures of this that I have run across was written by Tony Villiotti over at Draftmetrics.com. It doesn’t completely answer all the concerns I might have, but I think it is a good starting point.
Towards the bottom of Mr. Villiotti’s paper, he lists the percentage of players at each position, and from each round, that manage to start at least 8 games per year (on average) in their first 5 years. This is a fairly low bar to set, in my opinion, for judging the degree to which a player is a success, but is probably overall a fair compromise. What I’m particularly interested in are the overall results listed in the final column of his chart. He suggests that from 1991 – 2004, 21.5% of all players drafted managed to meet his 8 game per year standard. Yes, players taken in the first round met this standard 73.6% of the time, and 7th rounders only met it 5.9% of the time. In the end, the likelihood of a player meeting the standards required here, goes down by about ten percent for each consecutive round. I’m just interested in the overall percentage, since I want to know how many successful players we should expect a team to accumulate in an average year. Based on this overall 21.5% probability, this would work out to 1.5 players out of seven total draft picks, which lines up with my own observations. Obviously, this is much lower than the estimates given by Mr. Polian, and Mr. Reinfeldt (though they were speaking about what would constitute a good draft, rather than just an average one, they are still being overly generous as I will eventually attempt to show)..
Now, even with this information, we run into some problems. For one, these numbers could still be somewhat inflated. I don’t think there can be much doubt that the 73.6% success rate on 1st rounders is boosted by the likelihood that teams will keep trotting a player out onto the field, even when they are playing somewhat poorly, simply because of their draft status. On the flip side, it is hard to judge the 5.9% success rate of 7th rounders, when we never know if they have been given any real opportunity to prove themselves. In this case their low draft status, and preconceived notions of their value, works against them. Continuing to give opportunities to high round picks, because a team still expects them to become a quality player and confirm their initial appraisal of the player’s talent, obviously goes hand in hand with stymieing the success of the late round player. There are only so many starting spots available, after all. Either way, we’ll ignore this issue, since their isn’t much we can do about it.
Even if a player is managing to start games, we can’t be certain that he is actually playing well. Making subjective assessments of a player is tricky, and probably part of why so many turn out to be busts in the first place. Still, I thought I would try and apply some subjective grades towards the team I am most familiar with, the Baltimore Ravens, to get a sense of what is going on. To do this, I simply assigned a score from 1-5, for every player they selected from the years 2000 to 2010 (87 players in total). While this focuses on only one team, it hopefully still serves as a useful example.
While this is a very loose and subjective approach (and quite possibly idiotic), I was trying to be as generous to the team as possible, to see the most optimistic outlook on what is going on. Players who never got playing time or were quickly bounced from the league got a score of 1. Players who got some playing time but were notably horrible got a 2 (WR Clarence Moore, for example). Anybody who I felt could be perceived as at least an occasional starter or journeyman type got a 3 (DE Antwan Barnes, perhaps). Players with a 4 or 5 grade were the obvious sorts, who had distinguished themselves in some way, either statistically, or through Pro Bowls, as well as through longevity. I will admit though that I tended to take a point off for special team players (mainly kickers and punters) and for fullbacks, simply because of their reduced positional value. Either way, the truth is that the scores in themselves don’t entirely matter. I just wanted to see what percentage of players could arguably be seen as average or better, even if I graded them a bit more generously than I believe that they deserve.
So, being very forgiving of the mediocre, the Ravens came up with 41.36% of their 87 selections since 2000 as being at least passably average. Now, this whole approach is obviously somewhat foolish, and not the least bit scientific, but I just wanted to see what the best case scenario was if I only weeded out the most blatant and inarguable busts such as Troy Smith or Yamon Figurs, which make up the remaining 58.64% of the teams picks. In reality, I suspect we could argue that their overall success rate might be closer to 30-35%, which would still be higher than league wide 21.5% I mentioned earlier. This would still be a noteworthy improvement over the average result, for a team that is perceived to be one of the best in the draft, while still being lower that the public might expect.
As an example of what an exceptional draft might look like, I thought the Chargers’ 2005 draft class might serve as a good example. With the selections of Shawne Merriman, Luis Castillo, Vincent Jackson, and Darren Sproles, you could argue that their success rate that year was 57.14% (they had 7 selections that year). This probably represents, or is close enough to representing, the upper limit for what teams can currently aspire to achieve. This is obviously far from a typical result.
So, what’s the point of all of this? The reason all of this interests me, is that I suspect teams should be doing much better. From what I have observed, teams should be shooting for a success rate closer to 70%. While there will always be up and down periods, largely due to varying levels of talent in a draft class, but also some random luck, teams should almost never be dipping below a 50% success rate. Based on the data available to them, from the combine and college stats, the frequency with which players at the exceptional end of the “measurable talent” bell curve succeed is much higher than they seem to realize. I wouldn’t expect a radical shift in success rate in the first 2 rounds, where teams generally do a reasonable job of selecting the obviously superior players, but more so from the 3rd round onwards. At that point, it seems to me that their failure rate is much higher than it should be. While the overall availability of highly talented players does diminish as the draft goes on, the ones that remain and go on to become successes, are more readily identifiable than people seem to acknowledge. The players who reside on the extreme low end of the bell curve, in terms of athletic ability and college production, have nearly zero chance of panning out. Investing a team’s draft picks in players who have more exceptional qualities, even if they aren’t flawless, at least has some plausible chance of working out, based on who we have seen emerge from mid to late round obscurity in the past.
March 5, 2015 at 8:32 am #19476wvParticipantWell its a great topic. Most of us
have no idea what the ‘standard’ should
be for calling a draft “average”
or “good” or whatever.As that guy emphasizes its a really
tricky subject.If a team makes an All-pro-pick like Robert Quinn
does that balance out the draft if they pick a bunch
of busts after that? Does an Andrew Luck type pick
make the whole draft? How can we even compare getting
a “good starter” to getting a guy like Peyton Manning?
And what does it mean, that a team “figured out” that
Luck was the right pick, but couldnt do anything
in those tricky later Rounds?
And then there’s injuries — what if a guy was a
great pick but he got injured in his fourth game
and is out of the league now? And what if one
team has 12 picks and another team has 5 picks —
how do you compare them?Etc, etc, and so forth. Good topic, but so
many nuances that its impossible to stop
asking questions.I think with any ‘big picture’ algebra, you also
just have to look at each individual draftee and
just talk about it.
Seems like Snisher’s biggest question marks are:
1 The Bobby Wagner non-pick.
2 The Pead Pick
3 The Tavon trade-up
4 Brockers?
5 The No-QB until the 6th Round decisionw
vMarch 5, 2015 at 9:59 am #19478AgamemnonParticipantSnead is guy who likes more draft picks. Give him credit for trade downs, good and bad. Nobody gets drafted unless Fisher wants them. Under Fisher, Sneads greatest talent is guessing how the draft will unfold and getting a bonanza of picks for RG3. imo Quick might have been Snead’s guy?
- This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Agamemnon.
March 5, 2015 at 11:47 am #19480wvParticipantSnead is guy who likes more draft picks. Give him credit for trade downs, good and bad. Nobody gets drafted unless Fisher wants them. Under Fisher, Sneads greatest talent is guessing how the draft will unfold and getting a bonanza of picks for RG3. imo Quick might have been Snead’s guy?
Well can we really give Snead any credit
for “the bonanza of picks” for the RGme trade?
I mean, i think any sane GM would have been
able to do as well.He didnt screw it up == thats about all
i can say about the RG3 thing.
The Cleveland deal might have been
better, but who knows, btw.w
vMarch 5, 2015 at 12:41 pm #19483AgamemnonParticipantMarch 5, 2015 at 12:45 pm #19484AgamemnonParticipantThe Final Tally On The Robert Griffin III Trade Is In, And It’s Ugly For Washington
Tony Manfred
We now know exactly which draft picks that the Washington Redskins sent to the St. Louis Rams before the 2012 NFL Draft for the right to draft Robert Griffin III.
After a dismal year, the Redskins will have to send their No. 2 overall pick in 2014 to St. Louis. Here’s the final tally on the trade:
Redskins get: 2nd-overall pick (2012)
Rams get: 2nd-overall pick (2014), 6th-overall pick (2012), 22nd-overall pick (2013), 39th-overall pick (2012)Purely in terms of draft pick value, it’s a jackpot for the Rams.
How so?
Chase Stuart of Pro Football Reference came up with a system to determine the expected career value of every draft pick in 2008. Using his “approximate value” algorithm, Stuart was able to put a numeric value on every draft position using historical data. The No. 1 pick is worth 73 points of value, for example, whereas the 100th pick is worth 15 points of value.
The approximate value for every draft position can be found over at PFR.
When you apply this algorithm to the RGIII trade, you see how well St. Louis made out. Here it is in chart form:
rg3 trade chart redskins ramsData via Chase Stuart/PFR
The Redskins acquired 73 points of value in the trade.
The Rams acquired 176 points of value.
Pretty much every advanced stat and study says that NFL executives overvalue high draft picks. So no matter what, St. Louis was always going to “win” the trade using this methodology.
But neither team could have predicted that the Redskins would be so bad in 2013 that they’d end up giving a No. 2 pick right back to St. Louis.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/rg3-trade-rams-draft-picks-2013-12#ixzz3TXC01dxL
March 5, 2015 at 12:51 pm #19485AgamemnonParticipantMarch 5, 2015 at 12:53 pm #19486AgamemnonParticipantMarch 5, 2015 at 12:56 pm #19488AgamemnonParticipanthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzQJfKC4ovU
Here they have us picking Blackmon at #2. There is no trade yet.March 5, 2015 at 12:59 pm #19490AgamemnonParticipantMarch 5, 2015 at 1:05 pm #19491AgamemnonParticipantTuesday, March 27, 2012
Breaking Down the RG3 Trade via Trade Chart
(What does the math say about the RG3 trade? Image via)
There is still a great deal of debate in many NFL circles if the Washington Redskins gave up too much to move up to the #2 spot and draft Robert Griffin IIII (possibly Andrew Luck but highly doubtful). While many draftniks, some NFL fans and some experts will tell you that no price is too high for a franchise QB (if you don’t have one- most teams don’t) but some do believe that the Redskins mortgaged their future for 1 player. Hopefully by doing some math (gah! Math, it’s too early for math!!!!) we can determine if the Redskins got a reasonable deal for moving up or were they raked over the coals by the Rams.What I’m doing today is to explain the Trade Value Chart and by using this unofficial but valuable NFL guide to determine how much was the move from #2 to #6 worth and whether the ‘Skins made a reasonable offer to move up to that spot. We’ll also look at what the Browns may or may not have offered in order to move up and see how their offer looks compared to the Redskins.In future blog posts, for comparison, we’ll look at some of the trades that went down for franchise QBs over the past few years and also compare those trades to the TVC.
Remember, the TVC isn’t the end all/be all when it comes to trades. It’s an unofficial guide that serves as a baseline for a trade. Some teams have variations of the TVC to compensate for salary (like the old CBA where high draft picks could get as much as $50 million guaranteed before taking a single NFL snap) and some teams have higher values for picks in certain spots (for example the 2nd round is a very valuable round to some teams because you’re getting some 1st caliber talent for less than you have to pay in the 1st round). So more or less, when you do a trade you hope to have traded your picks for an item of equal value- thus you want to have about a 0 when you subtract the point value you are receiving by the points giving up using the equation below.
Equation:
Draft Pick(s) received (total TVC points) – Draft Pick(s) Given (total TVC Points) = x (0, + or – TVC pts)Here’s a link to what a current (standardized) TVC should look like. This is what I’ll be using for today’s discussion. What you also need to know is how picks are valued (or de-valued) for future years. This is important to understanding what the Redskins did with future picks. When a trade is made, the picks for that year’s draft are applied to the TVC. But future picks are valued one round lower per year after that year’s draft. So a 2013 1st round pick is given similar value to a 2012 2nd round pick etc.
Here’s a great example: Redskins trade QB Jason Campbell, to Oakland for 4th round 2012 pick.
In 2012 this is a great move for the Redskins. We’ve got an additional 4th rounder. But going by the trade value chart when the trade back in 2010, that 4th rounder is de-valued to the equivalent of a 6th rounder. This is because the Redskins had to wait two years (two drafts) to be able to use that pick. People using the TVC chart take that waiting into consideration and that’s why future picks are de-valued- you have to wait to use them and that you can’t use that pick now.So, now we have that out of the way, let’s get to what you want to read about.
The RG3 trade
Redskins get: #2 2012 draft (2,600 points)
Rams get: #6 2012 draft (1,600 points)
#39 2012 draft (510 points)
Redskins 2013 1st round pick (~ 520 points estimated)*
Redskins 2014 1st round pick (~240 points estimated)** It’s never easy to determine what future draft picks are worth since we don’t know when that team is picking in 2013 or beyond. Since the Redskins are making this trade in 2012 we base those future picks off of where they are drafting this year. So, #6 de-valued one round (for one year of waiting) is equal to a pick at #38 thus, 520 points. #6 de-valued two rounds (2014 pick= 2 years) is worth 240 points.
When we do the math: 2600pts (Redskins receiving) – 2870 (Redskins giving) = -270 points.
For speculation sake, let’s look at what the Browns offered**:
#4 2012 draft (1,800 points)
#22 2012 draft (780 points)
Browns 2013 1st round pick (~540 points estimated)
** To be honest, we never really found out what the Browns actually offered. The rumored amount is “three first round picks”. The problem is that we don’t know if those picks were the 2 1st round picks from 2012 draft or say 1st rounders in 2012 (#4 overall), 2013 and 2014For the hell of it let’s look at that scenario:
#4 2012 draft (1,800 points)
Browns 2013 1st round pick (~540 points estimated)
Browns 2014 1st round pick (~250 points estimated)When we do the math (scenario 1): 2600pts (Browns receiving) – 3120 (Browns giving) = -520
So based on the TVC the Browns actually offered up much more short term value than what the Redskins offered even though the Redskins offered up more picks and what could be more valuable picks if the Redskins continue to struggle.When we do the math (scenario 2): 2600pts (Browns receiving) -2590 (Browns giving) = +10
Hmmmmm……I’m starting to wonder if this was what the Browns actually offered up to the Rams. It’s the closest of all three offers to zero. Remember, ideally you want to be at zero or have a positive value when you do a trade. A zero value based on the chart is considered a trade of equal value.Analysis: The Redskins get their guy more or less and for the Redskins they gave up an additional 1st round pick in 2014 to win the RG3 sweepstakes. Remember, the Rams didn’t offer a bidding war to contending teams. Rams GM Les Snead wanted each team to throw out their best offer and the winning team was the team that offered the most. The Redskins offered three high picks (along with swapping their 6th for the Rams 2nd) to get their guy (or at least get to the spot to get their guy). The Rams get three potential starters out of the deal so think the equivalent of Trent Williams, Ryan Kerrigan and Jarvis Jenkins. That’s a lot of potential talent, although the Rams will have to be patient through three drafts before they can collect all of those picks. For the Rams sake, it will hopefully be worth the wait or Jeff Fisher and Les Snead will be looking for new jobs.
The Redskins had to make this trade no matter how it pans out. Manning wasn’t coming to DC. The Redskins didn’t like what was on the free agent market (Flynn et al.) and Ryan Tannehill is a project. The Redskins had to give up a lot because Cleveland and Miami were serious about moving up as well and Cleveland had the most ammo to win a bidding war. Classic law of supply and demand. The more demand for an item (including draft picks) the higher the cost. The Redskins were willing to pay the higher cost (something Dan Snyder has never had a problem doing) and as a Redskins fan I thank them for doing it.
As for Cleveland, they get to keep their draft picks and hope they can find talent to build around Colt McCoy. McCoy is actually a good fit for Holmgren’s style of WCO. It was clear to me that McCoy had no play making WRs to target, no RB to back him up (Peyton Hillis was injured a big chunk of 2011) and no one to block for him with exception to their LT. So instead of crying to Browns’ season ticket holders about how he was screwed, Holmgren needs to figure out what players the Browns need to help McCoy and learn how to follow directions.
http://walkingdeadmanblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/breaking-down-rg3-trade-via-trade-chart.html
March 5, 2015 at 4:48 pm #19495wvParticipantSnead is guy who likes more draft picks. Give him credit for trade downs, good and bad. Nobody gets drafted unless Fisher wants them. Under Fisher, Sneads greatest talent is guessing how the draft will unfold and getting a bonanza of picks for RG3. imo Quick might have been Snead’s guy?
Well, we disagree about that, but,
ignoring the ‘credit’ notion,
what players did the Rams get?
I keep forgetting.w
vMarch 6, 2015 at 1:06 am #19553znModeratorWell its a great topic. Most of us
have no idea what the ‘standard’ should
be for calling a draft “average”
or “good” or whatever.As that guy emphasizes its a really
tricky subject.If a team makes an All-pro-pick like Robert Quinn
does that balance out the draft if they pick a bunch
of busts after that? Does an Andrew Luck type pick
make the whole draft?I couldn’t agree more—there has to be some kind of standard in the discussion, though it’s not all there is to the discussion. Still it’s important.
I approach it this way. It’s 2 things.
First you need a simple numerical baseline. This keeps people from just assuming you’re supposed to hit on 50% of your picks at least. It adds a component of objectivity.
How many players do good drafting teams get on avg. per draft? I looked once at the Giants, Packers, and Steelers and what they did between 2005-2010. 2010 is far enough back so you can actually judge.
BTW, by going back in time you also eliminate the “draft discount.” That is, most teams keep all 7 guys they draft (or close to it) for at least a year or 2. And, some guys start at first if picked high, but they don’t hold up (like Carriker with the Rams.) So you can’t count them. Going back in time clears all that up. If you were grading Rams drafts before the 2009 draft, and you just counted starters because they’re starters, Carriker counts. He started. But as time ticks by, that kind of thing gets weeded out.
What I found was that on avg. a good drafting team gets around 2.6-3 players per draft, counting starters and important role players (like 3rd receivers or situational pass rushers, etc.) That’s around 40%.
Just AVERAGE drafts get around 2 players per draft. Edging toward 30%.
Anything past the low 40s in terms of percentages is exceptional (see Seattle from 2010 on).
Okay so that’s just a baseline. That’s the objective part.
You then need to add some prose. What kind of players are they–top? just good? Did they pick high or low? Any all pros, and do they balance any of the busts? That’s a value judgement.
So I like to combine a numerical baseline with evaluative commentary. 40% is good, 30% is average, below 20% is poor. But then you have to look at who it is (any pro bowlers? mostly JAGs?) and makes some qualitative judgements.
Right now, it’s too soon to judge the Rams drafts under Fisher. I mean yeah so far the numbers favor them looking good–so far, having Robinson, Donald, Mason, Gaines, possibly Joyner, Austin, Ogletree, McDonald, Stacy, Brockers, Quick, Jenkins, Zuerlein …that looks like 48%, though it’s not all certain and the quality isn’t clear yet (plus maybe there’s Givens, Johnson, Jones, Bryant and Rhaney).
But you can’t write a decent or reliable qualitative assessment yet, and maybe some of those picks don’t hold up when viewed from the long term.
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