Do/Should the Rams Cut Bradford?

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  • #4932
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    What are the Cap ramifications of cutting Bradford?

    With this injury, it has to be a concern, what’s the cap cost? It may be necessary going forward if the Rams need to make a move…

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #4934
    zn
    Moderator

    What are the Cap ramifications of cutting Bradford?

    With this injury, it has to be a concern, what’s the cap cost? It may be necessary going forward if the Rams need to make a move…

    They would save 10 M this year.

    But I don’t know what they would do with the money, exactly, and that would be such a cold thing. I can’t see a Fisher-led team doing that to someone they stood behind like they did with him.

    I wouldn’t want them trading for anyone…they need the picks. So they don’t need space for a trade.

    #4936
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Cutting them is a business decision. That doesn’t mean they can’t talk to him. Just means that it’s not right to carry that money if he can’t play. And… there’s no guarantee that he actually recovers in 12 months to be ready to play by the regular season NEXT SEASON, which puts next year’s roster in question as well.

    Frankly, in cutting him, he’s likely on a 2 year rehab stint where he’ll have to really get it stronger and then try to come back to the league and SOMEONE will likely give him a chance. But I just can’t see the Rams carrying his salary this year out of loyalty when we may need it for injury/trade offers/surprise late cuts.

    I mean, how often are we told that “football is a business”?

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #4937
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    They would save 10 M this year.

    But I don’t know what they would do with the money, exactly, and that would be such a cold thing. I can’t see a Fisher-led team doing that to someone they stood behind like they did with him.

    I wouldn’t want them trading for anyone…they need the picks. So they don’t need space for a trade.

    When Bradford got hurt his salary for this year just got guaranteed. So the Rams would not save anything by cutting him (if they can.) Could they trade him? Yes. But who would trade for him. My guess his trade value is pretty close to zero. Even if he recovers and passes all medical tests before the draft I doubt he would have much of a trade value given his salary for next year.

    #4938
    zn
    Moderator

    When Bradford got hurt his salary for this year just got guaranteed. So the Rams would not save anything by cutting him (if they can.) Could they trade him? Yes. But who would trade for him. My guess his trade value is pretty close to zero. Even if he recovers and passes all medical tests before the draft I doubt he would have much of a trade value given his salary for next year.

    His salary is guaranteed even though he hasn’t made the 53 yet? I didn’t know that.

    #4939
    wv
    Participant

    They are not gonna cut him.
    Not happnin.

    And i am pretty sure
    he’ll be ready to compete again
    next year. Who knows,
    maybe he plays all sixteen games
    next year and leads them to a ring.
    Comeback player of the year.
    Who knows.

    They’ll draft a QB though,
    thats for sure. Maybe more
    than one. Probably look
    at some Vets too.

    Can you imagine how Bradford
    must feel right now?

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by wv.
    #4941
    Eternal Ramnation
    Participant

    When you consider he’s already a millionaire it’s not so cold. I wonder if he retired for 2 years and then attempted
    his comeback would work for both sides. A 1 year 10 million dollar contract could bring in a contributor in some form or fashion. Maybe hire him on
    as an assistant QB coach or something during his rehab.Favre retired multiple times why couldn’t Bradford ?

    #4943
    PA Ram
    Participant

    They are not gonna cut him.
    Not happnin.

    And i am pretty sure
    he’ll be ready to compete again
    next year. Who knows,
    maybe he plays all sixteen games
    next year and leads them to a ring.
    Comeback player of the year.
    Who knows.

    They’ll draft a QB though,
    thats for sure. Maybe more
    than one. Probably look
    at some Vets too.

    Can you imagine how Bradford
    must feel right now?

    w
    v

    I agree. I just can’t see it.

    I was just thinking of Sam. His whole career is one big question mark now. You heart has to go out to him.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #4944
    snowman
    Participant

    If the Rams do trade for a QB it should be for Bradford’s permanent replacement, or at least it should precede Bradford’s release.

    #4946
    InvaderRam
    Moderator

    it does sound cold. from what tackledummy says it sounds like he can’t be cut this year. but i wasn’t thinking about this year anyway. i think they owe him this year.

    i’m wondering about next year. would they save any cap space cutting him for 2015? cuz he’s not coming back for awhile.

    if they do care about his career. he takes more than a year to come back. look at what happened to danario. and i understand that it’s a different position and different stresses are put on the joints. but that’s two tears in less than a year.

    cut him for 2015. i’d even bring him back as a backup qb if he was willing. he might not be. but it’s in his best interests to start out as a backup. if i’m his family, i’m telling him to take a job as a backup qb with an eye toward maybe getting a starting gig in the future.

    #4956
    cgsuddeath
    Participant

    Why don’t we wait til next year and see how it plays out.

    #4959
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    TD, sportrac is saying something different. That his $17M contract would only hit for $7M, but it’d be only half this year because it’s after June 1st, so only $3.5M

    How does his entire salary get guaranteed? And if so, are you sure that all of that counts against the cap? He may get it all (we talked about that for guys who get injured in OTAs and Pre-Season games who are UDFAs who reach injury settlements. Those UDFAs salaries don’t count against the cap, iirc, even though they only count the top 53, it still doesn’t register. Again, unless I’m misremembering. I could be wrong on this…

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #4961
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Okay, so I see what you’re saying, TD. All of his salary became guaranteed under the CBA, presuming this rule wasn’t materially different than under the old CBA since Bradford’s contract is under the old CBA. I can see if it’s all guaranteed that the Rams would just keep him on IR. Damn, that’s a lot of money to just sit there all season, though…

    http://overthecap.com/what-exactly-are-injury-settlements/

    The CBA protects players who are injured performing football activities. Essentially if you are injured your salary is protected, but it is only protected to a point. Remember there are various extents of injuries that occur in the NFL. An ACL tear is devastating and will cause a player to miss the entire season. That is a major injury and the player will earn his entire Paragraph 5 salary for the year.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #4964
    InvaderRam
    Moderator

    it only seems fair that they pay him this year. the rehabilitation costs alone have to be through the roof. astronomical i would think. and he got injured on the job. so he should be compensated for that. next year though. i don’t know how that all works.

    tough tough break. i was so sure he was gonna have a good year this year.

    #4974
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    Okay, so I see what you’re saying, TD. All of his salary became guaranteed under the CBA, presuming this rule wasn’t materially different than under the old CBA since Bradford’s contract is under the old CBA. I can see if it’s all guaranteed that the Rams would just keep him on IR. Damn, that’s a lot of money to just sit there all season, though…

    It was tweaked a little, if I remember, from the old CBA but in the favor of the players. Once a player signs a NFL contract if he suffers a season ending injury as a result of football activities with the team he is entitled to his full salary for the year. Had the Rams signed a rookie kicker as a camp leg and he got an ACL injury his first day of rookie camp the Rams would have been out his salary for the whole year.

    Sam Bradford will get a base salary of $14,015,000. There is also a prorated charge of $3,595,000 against the CAP. This comes to a total of $17,610,000 in cap space for Bradford. But the Rams will not have to come up with that much extra cap space. Rather, their additional cap charge will be for the player who takes Bradford’s place on the roster. For example, if the Rams had planned to carry only two qbs, Bradford and Hill, and they now will carry Hill and Davis then the cap space is changed only by Davis’s cap hit, which is $570,000

    #4976
    zn
    Moderator

    I don’t see that they necessarily walk away from Bradford even next year. Think how much football they have invested in him. Really, it would be his 4th year in the system and if he CAN play eventually then they gain and don’t lose anything. So let’s say it does take a year to rehab. Then he’s on the roster as a 3rd qb until he proves he can or cannot go. And then they do a couple of the following things: re-sign Hill, sign a free agent, make a trade, or draft someone high or in round 2.

    If Bradford makes it through that season as your back-up, then you stand back and re-evaluate. Or maybe he ends up taking the field halfway through the season, for example replacing HIll while a rookie sits.

    We honestly don’t know if he can come back from this because we don’t know what updated rehab techniques can do.

    In a situation like that they lose nothing, really.

    Cap space? Ask him to renegotiate. My bet is he would get that, and is past worrying abut money, he would want a “prove I’m back” year rather than money.

    #4980
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    I don’t see that they necessarily walk away from Bradford even next year. Think how much football they have invested in him. Really, it would be his 4th year in the system and if he CAN play eventually then they gain and don’t lose anything. So let’s say it does take a year to rehab. Then he’s on the roster as a 3rd qb until he proves he can or cannot go. And then they do a couple of the following things: re-sign Hill, sign a free agent, make a trade, or draft someone high or in round 2.

    If Bradford makes it through that season as your back-up, then you stand back and re-evaluate. Or maybe he ends up taking the field halfway through the season, for example replacing HIll while a rookie sits.

    We honestly don’t know if he can come back from this because we don’t know what updated rehab techniques can do.

    In a situation like that they lose nothing, really.

    Cap space? Ask him to renegotiate. My bet is he would get that, and is past worrying abut money, he would want a “prove I’m back” year rather than money.

    I have been a solid supporter of Sam Bradford ever since he was drafted (before actually.) And I think that if he could have stayed injury free we would be talking about signing him to a top 10 (or even top 5) contract. But, unfortunately he has not been able to stay on the field. By the end of the 2014 season he will have played in only about half of the Rams games.

    I agree with everything you say. But at the same time the Rams also have to look toward a future without Bradford. If Bradford is willing to play for backup money he will get a chance somewhere. If not with the Rams then somewhere. And I would like for it to be with the Rams. But the Rams still should plan for a future with no Bradford. If that is in free agency then great. Or if it is their first round draft choice then that is fine too. But it is time to accept that the future is not likely Bradford.

    #4981
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    What this means for Bradford and his agent after the dust settles is that if he wants to stick with the Rams and not be an March release, then he’ll have to renegotiate WAY down into the $2 Mil range. Not sure Condon’s going to want to do that for his client. Not that he’ll have much choice, but it’s so early.

    At this point, I just want the Rams to win with Hill.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #4982
    zn
    Moderator

    But the Rams still should plan for a future with no Bradford. If that is in free agency then great. Or if it is their first round draft choice then that is fine too. But it is time to accept that the future is not likely Bradford.

    I know, and I accounted for that. I said sign a free agent or draft a guy. Let’s say they do that and Bradford can’t play. They lose nothing. Let’s say they do that and he can play. Then they’re in a win/win scenario. My point was not about moving on or not moving on, it was about making the best of resources. In this scenario, if at any given point he can’t go, you’re covered.

    Saying this isn’t about being a “supporter,” it’s thinking about the best possibilities for the team. One good possibility is that you rehabilitate and “Plunkett” a player who has a rifle arm, knows the system, knows the receivers, and is deadly in the redzone. If that doesn;t work it’s on to Plan B, without losing anything in the process.

    #4983
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    it only seems fair that they pay him this year. the rehabilitation costs alone have to be through the roof. astronomical i would think. and he got injured on the job. so he should be compensated for that. next year though. i don’t know how that all works.

    Bradford will get paid for the 2014 season. He will also be able to use the Rams trainers for his rehab. All of his medical bills for this injury will be paid for by the Rams. As for 2015 he is still under contract with the Rams. He gets no further benefits as a result of the injury. I.E. the Rams could treat him any way they wish. They could play him under that contract, they could extend his contract, or they could cut him.

    #5003
    Herzog
    Participant

    He’s the quarterback version of Amendola. You gotta move on….he can’t stay on the field.

    #5007
    zn
    Moderator

    He’s the quarterback version of Amendola. You gotta move on….he can’t stay on the field.

    Well, Amendola kept getting different injuries. How does the same injury getting re-injured mean Bradford is Amendola?

    People are going to be taking different views on this. One view will be, 2 knees means he’s not durable. Another view will be, re-injuring the same knee does not signal that. Unlike Saffold, who injures something different each time, or Amendola, who was reckless with a body that could not handle reckless.

    I am of the “wait and find out” school. I honestly do not see the issue with him coming back and finding out if he can play. Though each time I say that, I add they’re going to also get another qb, and it’s responded to with, but they have to get another qb. (?) Of course they’re going to get another qb (though drafting high in round 1 is not the only way to do that.) I think some people around the net think they’re debating against an “attachment to Sam” position. That’s not it. It’s being smart about the qb spot. If Bradford can play after all this is said and done, then, keeping him isn’t sentimental, nor is this “you have to move on” idea all that sound. Why? If it turns out after all is said and done he is competitive as a qb option, why do you have to “move on”? It’s not a break-up, it’s a personnel issue.

    I agree with this post, anyway. ===>

    =========

    SunTzu_vs_Camus

    I think Bradford is a very good QB that just started to have an offense around him. 2 ACLs back-to-back is a nasty bit of luck. Just so sad.Sam looked great to me and he’ll be completely healthy for OTAs and his ACL will have many more extra months of healing. Either way, the Rams should draft a QB high and have them fight for the starting job.

    I just don’t want to watch another Warner situation happen to this team at the most important position…cuz they were not patient. But I understand that it all may just be too much for the organization. We’ll see how they play it.

    The Rams will draft a young gun/QB in the 1st or 2nd and let them both duke it out over the Summer…if Sam beats out the young QB and plays great..winner stays and so does the loser cuz the rookie will be cheap for 4 years.
    and we’ll have our bases covered. We have 2 good QBs for next year + Shaun Hill.

    If Sam loses and the kid is a big flash…then maybe we cut Sam….but we CAN afford to keep BOTH Sam and a 1st round pick for 2015. Hedge our bets.
    But Sam is a talent…a good man who’s had BAD luck.

    I do NOT want another situation(like Warner) where we cast Sam aside after a few bad years of injuries….and Sam rises for another team. I think many folks forget how HARD it is to find a good NFL QB…and I think we had one…who was ready to rise this year. Even just drafting ones in the 1st round…it’s still a real challenge to get them ready.

    Let’s keep Sam for his last year and draft a kid for cheap. I’ll bet Sam may even renegotiate for cheap too after this season and put much into incentives…or maybe not. LOl

    I want Sam…still do especially after watching him throw downfield to WRs that caught the ball. We were ready for a helluva fireworks show this year. It felt like it was all coming together on offense. imo It’s a team game….and Sam is still a part of this team. We can still be successful.

    I just really liked Sam finally throwing downfield like a freakin monster…
    and Quick & Britt…out fighting the ball for the catch!!! THAT was what we’ve been waiting for…and Sam has finally got some real NFL WRs who fight for the ball judging by last night.

    Anyway, keep Sam and draft a stud QB in the 1st or 2nd and let them fight it out. We CAN afford both and protect our team. We are building something special here and I think all the players know it. We just a hit little road bump.

    #5017
    Zooey
    Moderator

    On TV, Trumaine’s injury looked a lot worse to me than Bradford’s. I thought Bradford looked like he was out a couple of weeks. He didn’t appear to be in that much pain, and walked off the field. When they pulled Hill out early, though, I thought, “Uh, oh.” That means they are protecting Hill which is bad news for Bradford. I thought Tru was done for the year the moment I saw the replay, and he was carted off.

    So, now, I sit and wonder how bad Bradford’s injury is. Was it a complete tear, or partial tear? Is there any difference in terms of rehab? Is it the same ligament?

    He’s gone for the year, that’s certain. But what’s the rehab and prognosis? I think there is more information coming in the next week following his surgery.

    In the mean time, I agree there is more to lose by cutting him. He may be done; he may not be. But I’d keep him in case he’s not.

    Sam’s successor is not Hill or Davis, and I wouldn’t bet next season on Gilbert or a first round draft pick.

    #5023
    wv
    Participant

    I don’t foresee them cutting SB next year.
    He knows the system, he’s got great talent,
    he’ll beat out any young QB they draft.

    So, i imagine they’ll be patient with him,
    and not ‘count’ on him, and bring back
    Hill if he does well, and they’ll draft
    a QB in the first or second round,
    and they’ll sort it all out.

    Its tricky though. Balancing the money/cap-hit
    versus the starting-over-with-a-Rookie thing.

    w
    v

    #5090
    Herzog
    Participant

    Well, Amendola kept getting different injuries. How does the same injury getting re-injured mean Bradford is Amendola?

    B/c he can’t stay on the field AND he HAS injured other things in his career hasn’t he????

    #5093
    zn
    Moderator

    Well, Amendola kept getting different injuries. How does the same injury getting re-injured mean Bradford is Amendola?

    B/c he can’t stay on the field AND he HAS injured other things in his career hasn’t he????

    No, I view it this way. Bradford had a freak moment and a re-tear. I don;t view that as the same.

    In 2011 he injured the ankle, but then that year was so rough that every single Rams qb got injured. They picked Clemens up on waivers and he was playing a game 11 days later. And then…got injured. So to me 2011 was the situation.

    Amendola has shown that every single year he goes out on the field, it will be something else. That was true of 2011, 2012 (with 2 injuries) and 2013.

    #5096
    Herzog
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Herzog wrote:</div>

    Well, Amendola kept getting different injuries. How does the same injury getting re-injured mean Bradford is Amendola?

    B/c he can’t stay on the field AND he HAS injured other things in his career hasn’t he????

    No, I view it this way. Bradford had a freak moment and a re-tear. I don;t view that as the same.

    In 2011 he injured the ankle, but then that year was so rough that every single Rams qb got injured. They picked Clemens up on waivers and he was playing a game 11 days later. And then…got injured. So to me 2011 was the situation.

    Amendola has shown that every single year he goes out on the field, it will be something else. That was true of 2011, 2012 (with 2 injuries) and 2013.

    My point is, he can’t stay on the field due to health. And I feel like if he did, he would have been great. Those two things are similar to Amendola.

    Stick a fork in him……he’s done.

    #5097
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    No, I view it this way. Bradford had a freak moment and a re-tear. I don;t view that as the same.

    In 2011 he injured the ankle, but then that year was so rough that every single Rams qb got injured. They picked Clemens up on waivers and he was playing a game 11 days later. And then…got injured. So to me 2011 was the situation.

    Amendola has shown that every single year he goes out on the field, it will be something else. That was true of 2011, 2012 (with 2 injuries) and 2013.

    In 2009 Bradford injured his shoulder in the first game of the season at Oklahoma. He missed three weeks then came back. He then reinjured his shoulder his second game back ending his season.

    In 2011 he was injured much of the season even when he played. And he played only 10 games and was not 100% for many of the rest.

    In 2013 he tore his ACL in game #7 ending his season.

    In 2014 he re-tore his ACL in the third preseason game ending his season.

    In the last six seasons Bradford has finished the season only twice finishing the others on IR (or OU’s equivalent)

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by TackleDummy.
    #5099
    InvaderRam
    Moderator

    ok. well according to article zn posted he didn’t feel much pain because the newly reconstructed joint hadn’t had time to be properly innervated and didn’t have a blood supply.

    also. in an ideal world a player would have 2 years to properly heal but since this is the nfl and we’re not interested in a player’s long-term health they usually are back in less than a year.

    on re-tears the rate of return decreases significantly. on the first, it’s 95%. i’ve read that the prognosis usually decreases 2 fold. that article was dated 2013, so i’m thinking that it drops to around 90%. the article i read said 11% i think (or 89%).

    the guy doesn’t think bradford is injury prone. i don’t agree, but he’s a doctor. so what do i know? i guess he’s alluding to the fact that re-tears aren’t uncommon in the first year. but so what? they’re running out of options on ligaments they can salvage from other parts of his body. my guess is these other options are less effective. the last resort is using a ligament from a cadaver which has the worst prognosis.

    regardless. do i take a chance and come back in a year when i know this is my last chance? or close to it? when i know that it takes two full years for the joint to properly heal. to have a fresh supply of nerves and blood to replenish it. or do i come back in 6 to 9 months and just go for it.

    best possible thing for sam is to wait more than a year. that puts him well into the regular season next year. in an ideal world. he doesn’t even play in 2015 taking a full two years off. most he sees is a practice field.

    i just see what happened to danario. i don’t want to see the same happen to sam. whether he’s with the rams or not.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by InvaderRam.
    • This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by InvaderRam.
    • This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by InvaderRam.
    #5100
    zn
    Moderator

    No, I view it this way. Bradford had a freak moment and a re-tear. I don;t view that as the same.

    In 2011 he injured the ankle, but then that year was so rough that every single Rams qb got injured. They picked Clemens up on waivers and he was playing a game 11 days later. And then…got injured. So to me 2011 was the situation.

    Amendola has shown that every single year he goes out on the field, it will be something else. That was true of 2011, 2012 (with 2 injuries) and 2013.

    In 2009 Bradford injured his shoulder in the first game of the season at Oklahoma. He missed three weeks then came back. He then reinjured his shoulder his second game back ending his season.

    In 2011 he was injured much of the season even when he played. And he played only 10 games and was not 100% for many of the rest.

    In 2013 he tore his ACL in game #7 ending his season.

    In 2014 he re-tore his ACL in the third preseason game ending his season.

    In the last six seasons Bradford has finished the season only twice finishing the others on IR (or OU’s equivalent)

    Thanks TD, but with all due respect, we all know all that. But some of us are interpreting it differently.

    The shoulder came back stronger. The ankle went away, and was a direct result of circumstances where every qb they had got injured that year. The ACL got re-torn, which to me is a freak thing.

    I don’t regard that as being like Amendola, who simply cannot play football without injuring something else. Amendola’s body and his style of play combined make him a constant injury risk.

    Really, this gets down to different ways we all view it. No one lacks the info. We just regard it in different ways. To me, if Bradford can come back from the 2nd ACL (which remains to be seen), I don’t regard him as a special risk for another, different injury the way I do Amendola.

    Besides, in terms of the “move on” thing, it’s one thing to move on from Amendola, who ultimately is much more easily replaced. But the investment in a qb who has those skills AND that level of knowledge of the receivers and the offense is not something to be taken lightly. (In fact my bet is they set it up for him to come back, even with adding another qb through free agency and/or the draft…in fact if they can’t re-sign Hill, maybe both.) He would end up, depending on the circumstances, being a 3rd qb for a while, but if he can go he can go…they’ll determine that.

    This is what they are likely to not want to just throw away IF he shows he can still play—>

    MICHAEL BROCKERS: he was looking awesome in terms of being so in control of the offense this year. It’s almost like he was a little bit of Tom Brady-ish, checking off routes, knowing what the defense was in and where guys were going to be before they even knew it. He was looking a lot better and smoother this year. We felt like we were going to be so good, and we were going to be contenders

    If they can determine that he can go again or not, and do it in such a way that there is no risk, then why not?

    And in fact regardless what we think, the TEAM apparently think this is a freak thing. (The re-tear.) Fisher directly said so–his words were something like “a 1 in a 100 thing.”

    The worst thing for me would be to walk away from him, have him go through the time he needs, re-emerge with another team, and come back playing well.

    And again if they have him in-house next year and figure he CAN’T go, what have they lost?

    INVADER: i just see what happened to danario. i don’t want to see the same happen to sam. whether he’s with the rams or not.

    Danario had I think FIVE knee operations and a completely reconstructed knee, not an ACL tear followed by a re-tear.

    Bradford is to Danario as a housefire is to Hiroshima.

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