Clinton's concession speech.

InvaderRam wrote:

can i say winter is coming?

or maybe it’s been here for awhile already, but a storm is a brewing i tell ya.

LOL. Hodor

Billy_T wrote:

X,

First of all, I’m not a Dem. I mentioned that before, remember? I despise both parties, and I voted for Stein.

Second: if you just dismiss an NYT article, which collected those studies, linked to them, and you refuse to look at the studies, then there’s not much point in debating this. You’ve chosen upfront not to believe something that has mountains and mountains of evidence to show it’s true. Yes, strong majorities of Trump supporters have truly odious views on race, gender, sexuality and a host of other topics, and far too many ascribe to nutjob conspiracy theories peddled by folks like Alex Jones. It really doesn’t matter to me if you refuse to accept that. It’s true whether or not you do.

Third: Not saying you’re doing this, necessarily, but whenever I hear someone on the right say “I’m out in the real world,” it’s almost always code for “Stupid liberals!! Come down from the clouds and get a real job! Be like us conservatives! Real, hard-working, independent Mericans, who don’t get help from noboddy nohow, just like Dan’l Freakin Boone!!” If that’s not your intent, please forgive the rant.

Regardless, I wouldn’t take it as gospel that the people you encounter don’t harbor despicable views just because they don’t talk about it. Most people don’t let others know if they hold abhorrent worldviews.

Anyway, I think this is another one of those “agree to disagree” moments.

Hope all is well, Dude.

I know you’re not a Dem. When I point to the polar opposites in response to something you say, I’m referring to dems because that was the only other real option. Stein and Johnson never had a prayer, as you well know. So I’m not addressing or inferring your viewpoints. We can now proceed with that understanding, yeah?

Second: I just won’t read the NYT. I find them to be disingenuous at the least. Corrupt and liars at worst.

Third: That’s not what I meant. I have nothing but respect for anyone who’s passionate about their beliefs and will defend them vigorously. That obviously includes you. When I said “I’m out in the real world”, I meant, I’m out there collecting my own real-time data and not relying concentrated or possibly skewed polling. So, also, understand – going forward – that I don’t view you as someone who’s my enemy or someone who’s delusional or lesser than me. And sure, people I encounter may wear a mask and are only saying what I wanna hear (because I am quite the ominous presence lol). But that doesn’t negate my point that there are people from all walks of life, who are affiliated with both parties, who are horrible and harbor horrible thoughts. I just reject the notion that 25 million hard working Muricans can be put in a basket so neat and tidy-like. And if you think Hillary said the wrong thing there, then why are you trying to qualify it now?

All is always well, m’man.
I’m livin’ the dream.

I don’t think that, Billy. I think X is onto something.

I live in Central Florida and the visceral hatred for the establishment is palpable. I KNEW Trump was going to win Florida WEEKS ago. It was so clear.

Last week, Trump would hold rallies and thousands would attend. Clinton held a rally north of Tampa without any of the big name surrogates…so no FLOTUS, no POTUS, no Joe Biden, no Katie Perry, etc. She drew LESS THAN 300. Are you kidding me? In the final week of one of the most contentious campaigns in our nation’s history in perhaps the most contested swing state…she couldn’t get 300 supporters to show up for a rally??? Really???

Lots of people in the rust belt and the deep south have been deeply impacted by NAFTA, CAFTA and other really horrible trade deals. I’ve talked with plenty of people, Dems, Reps and totally not political people at all who felt compelled to vote for Trump because they felt that if someone didn’t do something about these trade deals, their children would be part of a permanent underclass.

What the Dems failed to do is focus on the economy and the real issues. Hillary couldn’t because she believes in the very mechanisms that caused many of these ills and will cause further damage. And the Democratic political machine wasn’t willing to do what the RNC did and go hands off and let the people decide from day one.

Are there some racists who are Trump supporters? Yes. Have many racists used this to come out from cover and put their beliefs and behaviors on display? Yes.

Doesn’t change that the fights are the same as they were before and with the aging population, if the Republicans want to start a culture war with this aging, browning population, they really risk a severe swing to the left (which is what Susan Sarandon was talking about).

I get the alt-right concern and racist concerns and as someone with a trans child, I’m already reading stories of trans/gay hate crimes and people who are just being complete racist assholes. To say I’m concerned is an understatement. I’m IN this fight to the last cell of my body.

But it wouldn’t have been this way if the fucking Dems had actually believed in democracy in a real way. Yet another reason why my HATE for Clinton is REAL.

We have President Trump because she was too ambitious to allow for a fair fight that might have allowed for a President Sanders.

Mackeyser wrote:

What the Dems failed to do is focus on the economy and the real issues.

Bingo.

Instead they launched yet another smear campaign in an attempt to try and sway people’s emotions about the other candidate (both Bernie and Trump). They’re all about emotions. And feelings — not reason — is what liberalism is largely about. Reason asks: “Does it do good?” Liberalism asks, “Does it feel good?”

Mackeyser wrote:

wv wrote:

waterfield wrote:

I don’t mind if its politics by algorithm as long as its used by a candidate I think is better suited than the other guys. Campaign machinery and demographic targeting has always been part of a general election. But I’m in no mood to begin any type of argument over this election. Been doing that for a couple of years and I’m tired. I will say that I agree with parts and don’t agree with other stuff in the article. I do think we need to revisit the electoral college issue given the reason for it being part of our Constitution simply no longer exist. Would I feel that way if my chosen candidate lost the popular vote and won the electoral “college” vote? Probably not.

————
The pollsters are usually right. They were almost all wrong this time. Why do u think that is?

Do you think Bernie would have won?

w
v

YES!!! Bernie would have won. The OVERWHELMING issue among the ex-urban voters who repudiated politics as usual in the rust belt was the embrace of bad trade deals like NAFTA, CAFTA and the up coming TPP that have decimated the working middle class of all races and genders.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/presidential-election-donald-trump-would-have-lost-if-bernie-sanders-had-been-the-candidate-a7406346.html
And as Trump proved…RALLIES MATTER!!!

Bernie had a real message.

And here’s a real point on that.

The Republicans actually put their money where their mouth was in believing in democracy…so much so that they were willing to let their party burn down. NO ONE rigged any process or did anything to impede any candidate. They…LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE. Contrast that with Debbie Wasserman Schultz who essentially acted like a Campaign Chair for Clinton while DNC Chair. She allowed the campaigning for super delegates prior to Clinton announcing. She restricted the debates to 4, initially, and then had them on the weekends when fewer would watch. She worked with media insiders to plant stories against the candidate and essentially rig the nomination process. Donna Brazille lost her job at CNN because she showed questions for the debate to the Clinton campaign prior to the debate. Guess she never stopped working for the Clintons or the DNC.

Had the Dems had as much faith in democracy as the Republicans… We’d be talking about President-Elect Bernie Sanders right now.

And I’m gonna pound on THAT every single fucking time some pseudo-liberal wants to cry about Hillary losing. Fuck that. She never should have been on the ticket.

And now we have a totally unified Republican Congress, White House and old Supreme Court.

Fuck the DLC/corporate DNC and Clintonistas for abandoning democracy when we needed to fight for it most.

But hey. At least now, hopefully, that corporatist Clintonista bullshit is dead and we can go back to work on the progressive agenda. Hopefully.

Tulsi Gabbert 2020.

Excellent post.

Mackeyser wrote:

Lots of people in the rust belt and the deep south have been deeply impacted by NAFTA, CAFTA and other really horrible trade deals. I’ve talked with plenty of people, Dems, Reps and totally not political people at all who felt compelled to vote for Trump because they felt that if someone didn’t do something about these trade deals, their children would be part of a permanent underclass.

What’s sad about this is if you look at policies not rhetoric, a trump administration is actually all about trickle-down supply side stuff, and implementing that is going to RUIN the economy for the working people who voted for him.

Just, ruin.

And we covered the whole trade thing here. It’s basically a scam. There is nothing real to it. Trump’s real economic allegiances are to the very policies that put us where we are.

.

zn wrote:

Mackeyser wrote:

Lots of people in the rust belt and the deep south have been deeply impacted by NAFTA, CAFTA and other really horrible trade deals. I’ve talked with plenty of people, Dems, Reps and totally not political people at all who felt compelled to vote for Trump because they felt that if someone didn’t do something about these trade deals, their children would be part of a permanent underclass.

What’s sad about this is if you look at policies not rhetoric, a trump administration is actually all about trickle-down supply side stuff, and implementing that is going to RUIN the economy for the working people who voted for him.

Just, ruin.

And we covered the whole trade thing here. It’s basically a scam. There is nothing real to it. Trump’s real economic allegiances are to the very policies that put us where we are.

I don’t buy the “anti-establishment” rhetoric because that’s a broad meaningless term. He directly profited from most of the things he is said to oppose.

Example

Donald Trump’s anti-trade rhetoric amounts to little more than bandwagon bluster and textbook hypocrisy. He knows the TPP is unpopular in the states he needs to win so he pretends to care about lost jobs and shuttered factories.

If you want to know Trump’s true position on the current corporate trade model, all you have to do is follow the money. Trump has consistently sent American jobs overseas to line his own pockets. He personally profited from the North American Free Trade Agreement (Nafta).

There’s more, this was all discussed at length long before this.

trade: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/trade/

Clinton vs. Trump on the economy http://theramshuddle.com/topic/clinton-vs-trump-on-the-economy/

Mackeyser wrote:

Oh, I know.

The point was that Trump was actually speaking to people’s real concerns. Carrier REALLY moved a REAL factory to Mexico…during this election. Ford is REALLY moving a REAL factory to Mexico…just after the election.

Clinton’s hands are all over those trade policies and rather than admit the obvious, she couldn’t repudiate her Wall Street ties.

So, ya know what? God Bless. She can retire with her many, many millions and fly around on her private jets taking millions for the Clinton Foundation.

What she can’t do is say she believes in the science of Climate Catastrophe while being all in on at LEAST a full 50 year commitment to Natural Gas as a transition from coal. Especially in light of the NOAA report that we may see as much as 9 FEET of sea level rise in 20 years…not 200 years…TWENTY. And thus far, we’ve outperformed every single worst case scenario.

What she can’t do is say she’s for working people while selling the preposterous trade deals around the world.

What she can’t do is say she cares about children and bring up that child in Syria while never mentioning all the innocent children killed by drone strikes in Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other places.

What she can’t do is stand with John Lewis and criticize Republican voter suppression and then turn around and disenfranchise her own opponent’s supporters by the hundreds of thousands.

What she can’t do is complain about being unfairly portrayed or maligned while engaging in the slimiest character assassination.

I think many knew what Trump was…and what he wasn’t.

I surely didn’t vote for him. NEVER would. Unlike Clinton apologists, tho, I hear why people would.

And honestly, anyone who entertains “anyone who voted for Trump is a racist” is part of the problem.

Mack, that’s all well said. But I have to say in return, old friend to old friend going way back now, none of it matters to me. The people who think Trump will benefit them economically got conned.

For me two things.

First, just focusing on economic policy alone, Trump will be far worse. And that’s not an apologist saying that. I was railing against Clinton in the Obama/Clinton primaries way back when, while also saying I didn’t think Obama was the least bit of an advance in terms of economic policy.

Second, that’s while fully acknowledging Clinton’s fucked up predisposition toward neo-liberal policies.

I agree with you that Trump took advantage of frustrations. But that’s just because the people who bought into that did not look any closer.

And again, he’s not anti-establishment. He’s just the establishment regressed and without disguise.

So yeah Juno did not represent any progress but now we have Saturn, who ate his own children.

….

I don’t disagree with that…mostly.

He put himself on the hook in his first speech that at the very least, he’s going to focus on infrastructure. If he does that, as we know, it’ll amount to stimulus and will jump start the economy.

It’s essentially using Bernie’s plan and I don’t doubt that as Trump has done on many occasions, he’ll do a call back to this because he’s a real estate guy and it’s what he knows.

He’ll outsource the social policy and even foreign policy which already is giving me the willies.

So, yeah, on a ton of stuff, both of them sold the people a bill of goods. Problem was that on ONE thing, he didn’t lie. And it turned out to be one thing that a LOT of Americans really, really care about. Doesn’t mean his plan is worth a damn.

But…he at least had the guts to call shit…shit.

And in THIS election… that was the difference. The turd with a piece of corn in it versus the turd without….

ZN SAID

“””””For me two things.

First, just focusing on economic policy alone, Trump will be far worse. And that’s not an apologist saying that. I was railing against Clinton in the Obama/Clinton primaries way back when, while also saying I didn’t think Obama was the least bit of an advance in terms of economic policy.

Second, that’s while fully acknowledging Clinton’s fucked up predisposition toward neo-liberal policies.

I agree with you that Trump took advantage of frustrations. But that’s just because the people who bought into that did not look any closer. “””””

you nailed it. People are too fucking stupid and lazy to see through this….. …. Trump is a salesman that sells the sizzle on a shitty cut of steak… a used car salesman selling garbage cars that people bought… he conned everyone into buying his rust bucket ….

it won’t be long before that Earl Scheib paint job will start to expose the rust bubbles and leave a giant oil stain in your driveway. we’re stuck with a lemon…..

The silver lining is that…hopefully…the progressives who are mad as hell and motivated with Bernie’s run (and many kept at it through the election) will take the mantle and keep fighting and can now do so without the DNC cockblocking them.

Cuz…fuck the corporate sellout DNC. They’ve been slamming progressives…even co-opting the progressive moniker while taking on virtually no actual progressive positions…even engaging in slimy character assassination that would make Karl Rove proud…all so that they could keep those corporate bucks rolling in.

Margin call, bitches.

Now is the time to get to do the REAL, Progressive work and hopefully not have to deal with any more DNC, centrist interference.