ag v zn on the OL

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  • #14859
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    We were discussing this in the chat room.

    We agree they need to sign Barksdale and that GR can improve in the off-season.

    My view is that it’s easy to fix an OL that already has 2 OTs and a very good guard in Saffold (though he played hurt this year), and what they most immediately need is a left OG and a center. You can have a very good OL without using the 1st round pick on that. I think it of as an easy fix, since it is not that challenging to add a good center and a good LOG to a line that already has its 3 major pieces. You can dredge for Barksdales (young linemen who have not developed yet cut by other teams), you can sign low-market FAs (like McCollum and Nutten), you can develop picks taken after the 1st round (eg. the best guard in 2013, Warford, went in the 3rd round). In fact you can do all those things at once and come up with a good guard and a good center, and if GR improves, you have a good line. If they do it that way they would use all those methods I just described at once and sort it out in camp. Some of the top 6-7 lines in the league have been built that way (like New England, the Giants and Green Bay).

    I am summarizing what someone else said so I could get parts of it wrong, but AG doesn’t like that approach because he wants a dominant OL, and the only way to be sure of getting that is to pick one stud high in the draft and keep picking. Maybe the 2nd or 3rd rounder or both.

    It gets down to this: Ag wants a dominant line and doesn’t trust my grab-bag approach. He agrees good lines are built that way, but wants one that is dominating, and your best approach to get that is to use the 1st round pick.

    This isn’t a poll to see who is on which “side”. But it is an interesting discussion.

    This, to me, is just the start of a discussion that will probably last for months.

    #14860
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    i don’t agree that it’s easy to fix an ol. like ag said. if it was easy, the rams would have done that by now.

    i do agree that there are different ways of developing an offensive line.

    as far as drafting one high, i think this happens to be the year that drafting one in the first round just makes sense. it’s supposed to be a strong year for the offensive line. there is no qb available beside mariota who will be worth drafting in the first round. no cornerbacks really that seem to be upper first round caliber. there’s landon collins i suppose at safety. maybe receiver. but i think 2014 was the year to draft a receiver. not 2015.

    at this point. offensive line in the first round just makes sense. it’s a position of strength in the draft that would fill a huge need.

    #14865
    JackPMiller
    Participant

    i don’t agree that it’s easy to fix an ol. like ag said. if it was easy, the rams would have done that by now.

    i do agree that there are different ways of developing an offensive line.

    as far as drafting one high, i think this happens to be the year that drafting one in the first round just makes sense. it’s supposed to be a strong year for the offensive line. there is no qb available beside mariota who will be worth drafting in the first round. no cornerbacks really that seem to be upper first round caliber. there’s landon collins i suppose at safety. maybe receiver. but i think 2014 was the year to draft a receiver. not 2015.

    at this point. offensive line in the first round just makes sense. it’s a position of strength in the draft that would fill a huge need.

    We are drafting 10th. The OT’s are not the issue, it is the interior OLine. I don’t see a Guard or Tackle worth taking that high, unless we trade down, which is possible, because we only have 5 draft picks, barring any comp picks.

    #14866
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    i don’t agree that it’s easy to fix an ol

    I don’t either, taken in the abstract.

    What I am saying is that it’s easy to fix THIS OL. All they need is a center in a guard, and they have any number of ways of acquiring good ones for both spots. That is because, assuming they sign Barksdale, they already have 3 set pieces–JB, Saffold, and Robinson.

    So is it difficult to go out and get a center and a guard?

    One way to ask that is to I look at the top 12 graded guards and top 12 graded centers according to PFF, and check into how they’re acquired.

    To do that I distinguish between high 1st round picks, let’s say 15 and above, and lower 1st round picks. I also use the “ronin” category–a young guy who bounces between teams in his first couple of years, like Barksdale. And finally I distinguish between high-market FAs (like Wells and Long) and low-market FAs who come in less expensive than those guys.

    CENTER: 4 lower 1st round picks (18th, 21st, 29th, 31st); 2 2nd round picks; a 5th round pick; 2 6th round picks; 1 low-market free agent (avg. 0.795 a year), and 1 converted guard/ronin type.

    I will say this about center. If someone is taken after round 2 or comes in as a ronin, usually they develop on the bench before starting. So this list says that if you need a center NOW, you need to use a low 1st or a 2nd round pick.

    GUARD: 3 lower 1st round picks (16th, 20th, 27th); 2 2nd round picks; 4 3rd round picks; 2 4th round picks; 1 trade using a 7th round pick.

    I don’t see a Guard or Tackle worth taking that high, unless we trade down, which is possible, because we only have 5 draft picks, barring any comp picks.

    Yeah they could trade down. This then also raises the question, would they start 2 rookies on a line that already included Robinson?

    as far as drafting one high, i think this happens to be the year that drafting one in the first round just makes sense. it’s supposed to be a strong year for the offensive line….at this point. offensive line in the first round just makes sense. it’s a position of strength in the draft that would fill a huge need.

    BTW I should add, I have no objection to that. If they for example take a tackle high and play him at guard, I can see that…it’s one of those things where I don’t prefer it, but I wouldn’t sulk and complain if they did. I get that approach too.

    Though again do they start 2 rookies on a line that includes Robinson.

    #14868
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    i’m actually for trading down and drafting a guy like erving.

    i see him being what bruce matthews was to those titans’ lines.

    i see him stepping in immediately at center which would go along with your idea of drafting a center with a lower first round pick if you need him to step in immediately. the added benefit of drafting him is that he could potentially slide in at guard and tackle too. that kind of versatility is invaluable in the modern nfl and makes him more than worthy of a first round pick.

    i don’t think you start two rookies. my hope is that barrett jones can finally step in at guard. drafting another linemen lower would be with the idea that he gets a year or two to develop.

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Avatar photoInvaderRam.
    #14871
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    i don’t think you start two rookies. my hope is that barrett jones can finally step in at guard. drafting another linemen lower would be with the idea that he gets a year or two to develop.

    Though, again, there are any number of ways to develop a guard who can play, and be good enough to play his part in an overall good OL.

    Maybe Bond or someone else they already have (Jones?) develops. Maybe they find a Barksdale. They could sign a low-market young FA who just needs a Boudreau to turn the corner (that’s the way they found Dahl in 2008 in Atlanta). Maybe a right tackle who is also in the ronin/low market FA position signs, and converts to guard. They could sign a more high-market FA guard.

    They could surprise and start 2 rookies along with Robinson.

    Or they could use lottsa different ways to scour up a player at guard. Maybe 2, so there’s depth.

    Which approach should they take?

    IMO…all of them. Simultaneously.

    #14872
    Avatar photoAgamemnon
    Participant

    That is a fair summary, zn. Everyone else is welcome to add their thoughts.

    Agamemnon

    #14873
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    That is a fair summary, zn. Everyone else is welcome to add their thoughts.

    Oh I see, I get the picture. I know what THIS is.

    Board war.

    s

    #14879
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    All I have to say is this… if they keep Scott Wells… I’ll have something to say about it…

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #14880
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    If Cameron Erving shows well at the Combine, I could see them trading down a lil bit and taking him at Center in the 1st and then going BPA in the 2nd… maybe a QB…then going OG in the 3rd.

    If Hundley falls out of the 1st round, I’d be tickled pink to pick him up in the 2nd… that presumes he comes out. I think he’ll stay and learn and allow his stock to rise…although there aren’t very many QBs in this draft right now…

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #14910
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I just look at it like — it depends on what
    the Draft Board looks like. Also
    what the free agency board looks like.

    They desperately need better interior play.
    They cant run the ball without a better interior Oline.
    And if they cant run, the QB wont matter.

    So, somehow, someway, they need to make SURE
    they find a Center and a Guard.

    Its year Four. They need to make sure,
    they find two very solid players.
    If that means taking the best Guard with
    the Ten spot, so be it. If it means
    trading down, so be it. Free agency? Fine.
    something else? Fine. But they need
    to get it right.

    w
    v

    #14924
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    repost, but it goes with the discussion in this thread.

    Offensive Linemen on current roster
    Starters
    LT Greg Robinson — The second overall pick in this past draft. He is expected to be the Rams starter at LT for at least the next decade. He is very young and very raw but also a great talent. Expect him to become the solid LT in his second year that some fans mistakenly expected him to be this year.

    LG Rodger Saffold — Rodger has had a history of injuries but has come back and played in all 16 games this season (missing only parts of two games) despite having shoulder problems. A very tough individual. He will have surgery this off season (January 7th to be exact) to correct his shoulder. He will be ready by the start of training camp.

    C Scott Wells — Wells redid his contract before this season. The contract calls for $1.75M roster bonus in early March. He will not see that money.

    RG Davin Joseph — Joseph was signed to a one year contract by the Rams as a backup after last year’s draft. He was forced into the starter’s job after Jake Long went down. He probably will not be returning unless it would be as a backup. And probably not then.

    RT Joe Barksdale — the Rams starter at RT for the last two years. He is fairly solid but will never be all-pro. He is also an UFA. Look for the Rams to try to resign him at their price.

    Primary Backups (according to ourlads)
    LT, LG, RG Mike Person
    C Tim Barnes
    RT, LT Brandon Washington
    C, G Barrett Jones

    There will be two (maybe three if Barksdale is not resigned) starting positions available. Look for at least one, and maybe two or even three, of these positions to be filled by the four players listed above. Fisher’s 20 year history is to draft OL low and develop them. Just as Barksdale got his shot as a starter, these four have been warming the bench waiting their turn. And they have been working in the training room, film room, the classroom, and on the practice field. For one or two of them their work may pay off and their turn may have just arrived.

    Others
    C Demetrius Rhaney (IR) 2014 Round 7.
    OT Steven Baker (Practice Squad)
    OG Travis Bond (Practice Squad)
    LT J Long on IR

    It is likely that the first three will be on the Rams 80 man roster at the beginning of training camp. They will be given a chance to make the 53 man roster but I would think it would be very unlikely that they could earn a starting role in 2015.

    I look for Jake Long to be cut unless he retires.

    Free Agents and the draft
    A year ago I would have said it would be very unlikely the Rams would draft an OL early in the draft. But they did and tried to draft another. So it could well be that they would draft a guard or tackle in the one of the first two rounds. If Barksdale is resigned it would be someone who could start at guard the first year. I could see the Rams entering free agency for a starting OL if they feel that they do not already have one of the positions filled. I know what the fans want, but I think Snead and Fisher will probably have other ideas. But I also think that OL will be one of their highest priorities.

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by TackleDummy.
    #14930
    Dak
    Participant

    A lot depends on who is available in free agency. Will there be a “bargain” type of guard who could start for this team? My sense is if there’s someone that good in free agency, it will cost a premium. The Rams have overspent for interior O-linemen for many years, it seems, and haven’t gotten back the investment. Joseph was a bargain player who we want to replace. Wells was an expensive free agent we want to replace. Barksdale will cost the Rams, and likely eat into any type of money they want to spend on the offensive line.

    So, I wonder, can Person come through as a guard? Is he the answer there? Because that would be ideal. You already have him, and you can plug him in. Robinson has to improve, and he should make a big jump next year. So, that leaves center. If the Rams can find a center high in the draft, I’m fine with that. Perhaps they trade down in the 1st round, like was suggested in this thread. If not, you may just have to over-draft the position if the right player is available. Or, the Rams could trade up in the 2nd round if the right center is available.

    #14933
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    A lot depends on who is available in free agency. Will there be a “bargain” type of guard who could start for this team? My sense is if there’s someone that good in free agency, it will cost a premium. The Rams have overspent for interior O-linemen for many years, it seems, and haven’t gotten back the investment. Joseph was a bargain player who we want to replace. Wells was an expensive free agent we want to replace. Barksdale will cost the Rams, and likely eat into any type of money they want to spend on the offensive line.

    So, I wonder, can Person come through as a guard? Is he the answer there? Because that would be ideal. You already have him, and you can plug him in. Robinson has to improve, and he should make a big jump next year. So, that leaves center. If the Rams can find a center high in the draft, I’m fine with that. Perhaps they trade down in the 1st round, like was suggested in this thread. If not, you may just have to over-draft the position if the right player is available. Or, the Rams could trade up in the 2nd round if the right center is available.

    Other depth guys who could come through (or not) include Bond and Jones.

    But either way, you can find lower market FAs who take to the coaching and do come through. Basically, that’s what McCollum and Nutten were. So that, to me, is still part of the mix.

    The best thing is to do a little bit of everything. That’s how Vermeil built a line. Lower draft picks (Miller and Tucker), a high draft pick, someone else’s cuts (Gruttaduaria), high market FA (Timmerman), low market FA (Nutten). Etc. Do it all at once. (Vermeil really did do it all at once.) Vermeil even got rid of higher draft picks to do it (Gandy and Wiegert).

    #14974
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    If Cameron Erving shows well at the Combine, I could see them trading down a lil bit and taking him at Center in the 1st and then going BPA in the 2nd… maybe a QB…then going OG in the 3rd.

    If Hundley falls out of the 1st round, I’d be tickled pink to pick him up in the 2nd… that presumes he comes out. I think he’ll stay and learn and allow his stock to rise…although there aren’t very many QBs in this draft right now…

    i’m intrigued by brett hundley. i think he ends up going in the bottom of the first round.

    pretty sure he is leaving. i think his own coach mora confirmed as much.

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