A Few Things . . .

This topic has 19 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 7 months ago by InvaderRam.

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April 15, 2016 at 7:42 pm #42019
Isiah58
Participant
Here are a couple of thoughts I have 24 hours after “the trade.”

I have heard a few fans/columnists/reports use words like “mortgaged the future,” “decimated the next two drafts,” and words to that effect, as if the Rams will never draft again. Let’s look at what the Rams have left in the next two years:

Normal Draft——-Rams ’16——Rams ’17
1———————-1
2————————————-2
3————————————-3
4———————-4,4———-4,4*
5————————————-5
6———————-6,6————6
7————————————-7

(ok, formatting this table is harder than it looks. sorry)

The ’17 third round pick traded to the Titans is the predicted compensatory pick at the bottom of the round, so the Rams will keep their original 3rd round pick next year. It is expected that they will get a compensatory pick in the fourth round for McCloud, but it could be a 5th. Thus, the ’17 draft is basically whole except the first round pick. Not optimal, but hardly decimated.

As to this years picks, what would have been originally 5th and 7th round picks have been bumped to 4th and 6th round picks. We are missing our 2nd and 3rd, but this is balanced by having the number one overall pick in the entire draft. Again, hardly the worst situation in the world.

Many have argued that Goff and Wentz are unproven, or mediocre, or a host of flaws that suggest the Rams were “desperate.” There are also respected scouts and evaluators who believe Goff and Wentz are better than Winston and Mariota, who both did well last year. If you read Mike Silver’s most recent column, you know that Fisher and Snead held private workouts with Winston and Mariota last year, and Goff and Wentz this year. This is the year they moved up, and they moved up from a higher spot. I would say they did a lot more homework on these guys than so-called scouts who have evaluations on 400 college kids but never worked these guys out or had them in a meeting room to go over plays. I believe the QB they take, will be NFL-proficient at a minimum, and that gives us a chance. If you are going to hold out for NFL-elite, you may have a 20-30 year wait on your hands, and who is willing to wait that long?

I think people who are suggesting that this is owner-dictated or a publicity stunt are being lazy or sensationalists. It makes a good sound bite, but this is simply in my opinion the next step in the evolution of the Rams team that has been building for four years. The lost picks will be long forgotten in two years, but the prospect of a young, competent NFL QB far outweighs the deficit created by the lost picks. This was a needed football move, and I believe it will be a turning point in this franchise that has needed this piece of the puzzle for 12 years.

Isiah 58
- This topic was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Isiah58.
- This topic was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Isiah58.
- This topic was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Isiah58.
“Marge, don't discourage the boy! Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel.” - Homer Simpson
April 15, 2016 at 7:54 pm #42025

Agamemnon
Participant

I am one of those lazy ‘whatyamacallits’, but that doesn’t mean the trade can’t work. 😉

Agamemnon

April 15, 2016 at 8:04 pm #42027

wv
Participant

Well, I dunno.

I guess I’m just not sold on Goff or Wentz.
But what do i know.

Wentz looks kinda slow to me. Like a big Kerry Collins
kinda guy. And Goff…well Goff has teeny tiny hands 🙂

w
v

April 15, 2016 at 8:13 pm #42028
InvaderRam
Moderator
it’s a big gamble. it’s just too much to give up for me. but i also readily admit i have not seen these guys play. only base it on what i read.

i do have one friend who has seen a lot of goff and thinks he’ll be good but still thinks the rams got fleeced. i’m having trouble thinking of an example where this does benefit the team trading up. maybe eli manning?

edit. one case where it did work is the rams trading up to number one for orlando pace.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by InvaderRam.
April 15, 2016 at 8:15 pm #42029

InvaderRam
Moderator

wv wrote:

Well, I dunno.

I guess I’m just not sold on Goff or Wentz.
But what do i know.

Wentz looks kinda slow to me. Like a big Kerry Collins
kinda guy. And Goff…well Goff has teeny tiny hands

w
v

wentz ran the 40 in the 4.7’s. 3 cone was 6.87.

he’s pretty athletic for his size.

April 15, 2016 at 8:42 pm #42031

Zooey
Moderator

Isiah58 wrote:

I believe the QB they take, will be NFL-proficient at a minimum, and that gives us a chance. If you are going to hold out for NFL-elite, you may have a 20-30 year wait on your hands, and who is willing to wait that long?

You used this argument in an earlier thread. I don’t think anybody has said that the Rams shouldn’t trade up to #1 unless Andrew Luck is there. That’s a straw man. The dissenters, of whom I am one, say that moving up for a QB who poses the risk of being worthless is too expensive. Sanchez, Leinart, Leaf, the list goes on and on. The Rams traded 3 starters for a guy whose high water mark apparently is that he can win when other people carry the load.

Isiah58 wrote:

I think people who are suggesting that this is owner-dictated or a publicity stunt are being lazy or sensationalists.

Isiah 58

I agree with that.

These guys think they are a QB away from playing the big game, and I think so, too. Apparently they believe that guy is in this draft. That I’m not so sure of.

April 15, 2016 at 8:51 pm #42032

zn
Moderator

Isiah58 wrote:

I think people who are suggesting that this is owner-dictated or a publicity stunt are being lazy or sensationalists. It makes a good sound bite, but this is simply in my opinion the next step in the evolution of the Rams team that has been building for four years. The lost picks will be long forgotten in two years, but the prospect of a young, competent NFL QB far outweighs the deficit created by the lost picks. This was a needed football move, and I believe it will be a turning point in this franchise that has needed this piece of the puzzle for 12 years.

I see that the non-Rams fans are dominating this thread with their pro-Oakland and pro-Seattle anti-football hater posts. But hey they have a right to their beliefs too, I guess.

As it happens, though, being an actual genuine Rams fan and a true-hearted follower of football in general, I agree with you.

I assume they believe they had one significant missing piece and so took advantage of a rare opportunity to add that piece.

It looks opportunistic to me. And if they were thinking we just lack one key piece, I agree with them. I thought all they needed to win last year was a consistently decent starting caliber qb. So I see it as a pure football move.

Not that history guarantees anything, but going back from 2013 (which is far enough back to judge the players now) to 1970, 20 qbs have been taken with the 1st pick. Of those, depending on how you rate Vick, 16 or 17 were hits, which is 80-85%. That’s good odds.

Personally I like the idea that they have a qb for the next decade and a half. I think back to the 2004 draft, where Eli, Rivers, and Roethlisberger all went in the 1st round. They have been in it, with some ups and downs, ever since. That’s enviable. Now I don’t have to envy it.

In terms of building the team, IMO, for the most part, they’ve done that. They have the defense and arguably the OL. They have talent on offense in Gurley and Tavon. They need to upgrade WR, depending on who comes back from injuries, but still, having that #1 pick qb makes all the difference.

In terms of how good Wentz/Goff or Goff/Wentz can be, my vote is, good enough. First, I have argued before that I like it better when a team adds a qb to a more established squad (the Flacco model) rather than try and build around a young qb (the Bradford model). So I like this. I also don’t think either qb needs to be elite. That’s at least partly because I think “elite” really refers to rare animals—Manning in his prime, Brady (even Rodgers and Brees, who push the border on this, don’t fully make it over the line for me). So I think the more realistic approach is to get and rely on a good to very good qb in the Flacco/Eli class.

You can win in the NFL with a play action offense complementing a top defense. That works even better if your qb is a top echelon talent. So imagine this–what if the football gods just let me pick any currently active qb for the 2017 Rams. That’s assuming the OL stabilizes and the defenses stays good. Imagine them, then, with guys like Roethlisberger, Flacco, Eli, Rivers, Palmer, Dalton, Newton, Stafford, Cutler (circa 2015), or Ryan. I would predict they would be a playoff team.

Well I think these 2 guys promise to be that caliber. In that range. So I am fine with what they’re doing.

Imagine a play action/defensive team that is good on 3rd down and in the redzone. And sometime across the next 12-15 years of WhichEver QB’s Rams Career, I would imagine they would add top receivers somehow too.

…

April 15, 2016 at 9:01 pm #42033

wv
Participant

InvaderRam wrote:

wv wrote:

Well, I dunno.

I guess I’m just not sold on Goff or Wentz.
But what do i know.

Wentz looks kinda slow to me. Like a big Kerry Collins
kinda guy. And Goff…well Goff has teeny tiny hands

w
v

wentz ran the 40 in the 4.7’s. 3 cone was 6.87.

he’s pretty athletic for his size.

By slow I mean his release. His release looks
slow to me. Not like Luck or Peyton or even Cam.

April 15, 2016 at 9:06 pm #42034

Agamemnon
Participant

This thread is entirely too reasonable. I blame Zooey.

Agamemnon

April 15, 2016 at 9:09 pm #42035

InvaderRam
Moderator

wv wrote:

InvaderRam wrote:

wv wrote:

Well, I dunno.

I guess I’m just not sold on Goff or Wentz.
But what do i know.

Wentz looks kinda slow to me. Like a big Kerry Collins
kinda guy. And Goff…well Goff has teeny tiny hands

w
v

wentz ran the 40 in the 4.7’s. 3 cone was 6.87.

he’s pretty athletic for his size.

By slow I mean his release. His release looks
slow to me. Not like Luck or Peyton or even Cam.

can that be corrected? i’ve read that about him. one report said there was a little bit of a loop to his release.

one thing i like about carson is he’s not just a passer. he can run a little bit. i could see fisher using him similarly to how he used mcnair.

April 15, 2016 at 9:28 pm #42037

InvaderRam
Moderator

and i’ll repeat this again. he was only 5’9″ as a freshman in high school and didn’t play quarterback until his senior year when he had a growth spurt. he also apparently was playing baseball and was dealing with injuries from that sport. as a result the only fbs school to give him a scholarship was central michigan. he decided to go with his home school ndsu – an fcs school. he redshirted a year and didn’t start until his junior year.

so this guy is pretty raw. lots of potential still in him. hasn’t had nearly the amount of reps that goff has had.

April 15, 2016 at 9:37 pm #42039

zn
Moderator

InvaderRam wrote:

so this guy is pretty raw. lots of potential still in him. hasn’t had nearly the amount of reps that goff has had.

Yes. It’s a pick your poison situation. Wentz/Goff is very raw, though he played in a pro offense that required pre-snap reads and audibles (which essentially puts him ahead of where Bradford was coming out, at least in those specific terms). Goff/Wentz, on the other hand, has much more experience and is the more fine-tuned passer, but he played in a spread and so needs to actually learn a lot of the relevant pro techniques and concepts. He also faced a higher level of competition.

Which is probably why Keenum is going to play at least a few games to start the season, I bet.

BUT I believe everyone who says they are both top candidates. Not Luck, but next tier down. I’ve seen more than once where some writers are saying pro personnel people rate them both up there with—if not a few degrees better than—Winston and Mariota.

April 15, 2016 at 10:40 pm #42044

InvaderRam
Moderator

in my unbiased opinion, wentz is the better fit. he brings more to the table than just passing. he can run the ball a little, and let’s face it the rams are never going to be a pass heavy team under fisher. so the fact that wentz can run the ball would seem to make him more valuable to the rams. plus he’s got that thick build like a cam newton and should be able to absorb punishment better. he also has experience in a pro offense and running play action which will help him.

but like you said, he hasn’t had a lot of snaps. and isn’t the fine tuned passer that goff is. but will that matter in an offense that features a lot of todd gurley anyway?

i see a lot of mcnair/george potential with a wentz/gurley combo.

April 15, 2016 at 10:49 pm #42047

zn
Moderator

InvaderRam wrote:

but like you said, he hasn’t had a lot of snaps. and isn’t the fine tuned passer that goff is. but will that matter in an offense that features a lot of todd gurley anyway?

Personally? Yes I think passing matters. I don’t think the Rams intend to be a run-heavy team. I think they intend to be a more balanced team, and in this day and age, balanced doesn’t meant 50/50…it means something more like 52-6 P/48-44 R…that kind of range.

I don’t think that it’s passing isn’t as important. I just think that this year, the best qbs available have some developmental aspects in their make-up, so AT FIRST you can’t throw with them as much as you would like to.

But, since I see this as a 12-15 year starter pick and not as a 2016 season pick, starting out slowly is fine with me. I just simply never believe the guys who say Fisher wouldn’t pass much even if he had a good veteran passer. No, I think he doesn’t pass as much when he has Davis, Keenum, and Hill. Give him a matured Goff or Wentz and my take is they would pass the ball more than Seattle and Carolina currently do.

.

…

April 15, 2016 at 10:49 pm #42048

InvaderRam
Moderator

a random note. it’s not listed on the official nfl combine site, but several sites report that carson wentz ran a 4.15 sec short shuttle. he also ran a 6.86 second 3 cone. that’s pretty ridiculous.

for comparison those numbers are better than the numbers jalen ramsey put up.

so yeah. the guy’s a stud athlete even though the 4.77 40 shows he doesn’t have long speed. he’s basically put up elite running back type numbers in the short shuttle and 3 cone.

April 15, 2016 at 10:52 pm #42049

InvaderRam
Moderator

zn wrote:

InvaderRam wrote:

but like you said, he hasn’t had a lot of snaps. and isn’t the fine tuned passer that goff is. but will that matter in an offense that features a lot of todd gurley anyway?

Personally? Yes I think passing matters. I don’t think the Rams intend to be a run-heavy team. I think they intend to be a more balanced team, and in this day and age, balanced doesn’t meant 50/50…it means something more like 52-6/48-44…that kind of range.

I don’t think that it’s passing isn’t as important. I just think that this year, the best qbs available have some developmental aspects in their make-up, so AT FIRST you can’t throw with them as much as you would like to.

But, since I see this as a 12-15 year starter pick and not as a 2016 season pick, starting out slowly is fine with me. I just simply never believe the guys who say Fisher wouldn’t pass much even if he had a good veteran passer. No, I think he doesn’t pass as much when he has Davis, Keenum, and Hill. Give him a matured Goff or Wentz and my take is they would pass the ball more than Seattle and Carolina currently do.

.

…

not trying to say it isn’t important. but not as important as if this was a pass oriented offense which it isn’t going to be. i’m just wondering if wentz’s skill set is a better fit for an offense that will feature a lot of the running game.

April 15, 2016 at 11:23 pm #42050

zn
Moderator

InvaderRam wrote:

he basically put up elite running back type numbers in the short shuttle and 3 cone.

That’s interesting.

.

April 16, 2016 at 1:02 am #42060

Zooey
Moderator

Agamemnon wrote:

This thread is entirely too reasonable. I blame Zooey.

Yes! Ag blames ME!!!!!!!

April 16, 2016 at 10:24 pm #42138

zn
Moderator

InvaderRam wrote:

i’m just wondering if wentz’s skill set is a better fit for an offense that will feature a lot of the running game.

I know what you’re saying because Wentz offers a bit of the read option. But it’s also possible, though, that with Goff being (at this point anyway) the more sophisticated passer, the Rams scheme for those strengths more.

I always thought the Rams passed as much as the qb let them. In 2012, for example, they were a 59% passing team. In 2015, they were a 53.4% passing team.

That IMO is just the difference between having a (non-melted down) starting caliber veteran qb…and, not.

April 16, 2016 at 10:33 pm #42140

InvaderRam
Moderator

zn wrote:

InvaderRam wrote:

i’m just wondering if wentz’s skill set is a better fit for an offense that will feature a lot of the running game.

I know what you’re saying because Wentz offers a bit of the read option. But it’s also possible, though, that with Goff being (at this point anyway) the more sophisticated passer, the Rams scheme for those strengths more.

I always thought the Rams passed as much as the qb let them. In 2012, for example, they were a 59% passing team. In 2015, they were a 53.4% passing team.

That IMO is just the difference between having a (non-melted down) starting caliber veteran qb…and, not.

i think wentz has the potential to improve as a passer, but he could also provide the offense things immediately which goff might not be able to do immediately. i think the playing under center and playing in that offense can’t be underestimated. even if it was against lower competition.

it’s interesting. it could go either way at this point.
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