Here's the problem -as I see it

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  • May 17, 2018 at 2:47 am #86229
    waterfield
    Participant

    I have many republican friends. Some are wayyyyyy to the right whom I don’t care for. Others are moderate. But to a person they ALL say they would vote for Trump again notwithstanding their distaste to the man himself.Their reasons? His policies.

    Notwithstanding the polls-I think this is a real problem. We are born with “self interest” and he preaches to that. We want what WE want-not what others need. The capitalistic system teaches us that our happiness is dependent on what we “gather” not what we can give. Trump’s claimer is “hey I may be an Ass hole but I can give you (not others in need ) more toys you can enjoy.

    So what can be done?

    While I have been an optimist for soooooo many years I no longer am. Not because of Trump but because of my “friends” who I talk to. Where in the world did they learn its all about “them”. Is there anything that can practically be done?

    • This topic was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by waterfield.
    May 17, 2018 at 1:55 pm #86234
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    wv-mom is at the other end of the spectrum. She is poor and lives on a small fixed income. She loves Trump. And one reason is she showed me her monthly check the other day. She gets, like, 70 dollars more per month, thanks to Trump.

    He’s “God’s Instrument” according to her.

    So….I’m not too optimistic either.

    From the Bible-Belt,
    w
    v

    May 17, 2018 at 6:37 pm #86240
    waterfield
    Participant

    We have relatives who are evangelical Christians who feel as your mom does. I don’t get it. IMO he’s the least Christian like President we have ever had. My only thought is that they like his position on abortion. At least his position today.

    We really are not a very smart country.

    May 17, 2018 at 7:50 pm #86244
    Avatar photowv
    Participant
    waterfield wrote:

    We have relatives who are evangelical Christians who feel as your mom does. I don’t get it. IMO he’s the least Christian like President we have ever had. My only thought is that they like his position on abortion. At least his position today.

    We really are not a very smart country.

    ==========================

    Yup.

    Seems like his base is composed of at least four groups:
    1 The white male working class folks who think the Dems shit on them.
    2 The evangelical christian types who mainly care about abortion
    3 The country-club Reps who want lower taxes for the rich
    4 Racists.

    w
    v

    May 18, 2018 at 7:57 am #86249
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    waterfield wrote:

    I have many republican friends. Some are wayyyyyy to the right whom I don’t care for. Others are moderate. But to a person they ALL say they would vote for Trump again notwithstanding their distaste to the man himself.Their reasons? His policies.

    Notwithstanding the polls-I think this is a real problem. We are born with “self interest” and he preaches to that. We want what WE want-not what others need. The capitalistic system teaches us that our happiness is dependent on what we “gather” not what we can give. Trump’s claimer is “hey I may be an Ass hole but I can give you (not others in need ) more toys you can enjoy.

    So what can be done?

    While I have been an optimist for soooooo many years I no longer am. Not because of Trump but because of my “friends” who I talk to. Where in the world did they learn its all about “them”. Is there anything that can practically be done?

    Here’s what I think we should do: Stop trying to understand, court, pamper, coddle or work with right-wingers when it comes to making public policy. Instead, we on the left should do everything we can to defeat them and keep them from power. Just utterly defeat them, keep them from power, and once we’re in power, make the best public policy we can for everyone — which necessarily means ignoring right-wingers.

    The reason I say the above: It goes to your discussion via “self-interest.” That view is itself “self-serving,” because it’s not at all supported by science, common sense, history or logic. As in, we never would have survived as a species if not for literally hundreds of thousands of years of communal organization, sharing everything, cooperating with each other, helping each other out. I think the vast majority of people prefer that way of life to the dog eat dog world promoted by capitalist propaganda, and I know it’s the better way to view things when making public policy.

    (To keep the post relatively short, I’ll add to this later)

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Avatar photoBilly_T.
    May 18, 2018 at 8:06 am #86251
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Ever notice this about discussions with right-wingers, Republicans, right-libertarians? While there are always, always plenty of exceptions, this is typically how things go, when talking about public policy. Emphasis on public policy . . .

    They tend to always invoke “I” or “me” or “I get this out of it” or “It’s good for me.”

    Lefties, OTOH, will almost always talk in terms of broad effects on other people — which is the entire point of public policy to begin with. It’s not about you and me. It’s about the entire country.

    Next time you’re in a room with Republicans, take note of that. If you’re lucky and it’s a nice mix of leftists, Dems and Republicans, you’ll see quite different starting points for these issues. Online as well.

    To threw a bit of, well, irony, in the mix, on a personal note, I think it’s more than fine to think in terms of “me, myself and I” or “My family and me” when it comes to one’s own life, one’s duty’s to those close to us, to our personal interaction with the world. It’s more than logical and there’s nothing wrong with this.

    But when it comes to making public policy, for the public, for society, it is the last thing we should be doing.

    IMO . . .

    ;>)

    May 18, 2018 at 9:25 am #86252
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    A side note on the “self-interest” thing.

    Read an excellent history of the Paris Commune of 1871, its backstory and the philosophy of several of its major thinkers, especially Peter Kropotkin, William Morris and Elisee Reclus:

    Communal Luxury
    The Political Imaginary of the Paris Commune
    by Kristin Ross

    https://www.versobooks.com/books/2253-communal-luxury

    She touches upon a very interesting divergence between Western and Eastern (in this case, Russian) evolutionists. We in the West take for granted the idea of the survival of the fittest, and a kind of endless battle to stay alive. The Russian evolutionists of the time — mid to late 19th century — were convinced that a very different scenario took place, that we survived as a species because we worked together, worked cooperatively, and instead of fighting each other to the end, as if we were automatically each other’s enemies, we joined forces to fight against our real enemies, or obstacles, or dangers . . . the elements, predators in the wild, etc. etc.

    I took this to also mean that Darwinian theory may well have been influenced by capitalism and its modus operandi . . . competition. That Darwin and his followers may well have been overly influenced by their own day’s economic system, back-dating its rules and internal logic . . . and forcing it to fit our earliest days on this planet.

    Personally, I think the Russian evolutionists make a hell of a lot more sense. I don’t think we ever would have survived if we had the dog eat dog mentality of the capitalist world back then. Hobbes’ war of all against all would have meant some other species would have surpassed us, most likely.

    May 18, 2018 at 1:06 pm #86267
    waterfield
    Participant

    I have a different take. I believe -just personal observations and listening to the general public around me-we are becoming more and more ignorant and just plain stupid. And I don’t think its the fault of our schools or our political system. It goes back to what I’ve been saying for a long, long time. People like you ( no children), WV (no children) and me (one child) are people that SHOULD be having children but over the last 40 or so years have stopped doing so. OTOH those that anyone with any adult sense can see should NOT be having children are continuing to breed and populate are country with unbalanced, mentally sick, and totally ignorant people. This doesn’t bode well for our future.

    Look at the tragedy this morning in Texas. Surely this student shooter will be found to be unbalanced. My answer is very Hitlarian.

    1) Implant a birth control device in every born female that can only be removed only on the passing of some basic criteria, such as education, employment, basic income sufficient to support a child.

    2) Eliminate all video games that award the killing of human targets. (that’s mostly all of them)

    3) Confiscate all guns and place them in a dispensary where you can check out the weapon for such things as hunting, target practice, etc. Same as in the Navy where servicemen on leave can “check out” a gun.

    I suspect that many, many years from now some of these will be enacted-simply for our survival.

    May 18, 2018 at 2:12 pm #86268
    waterfield
    Participant

    4) shut down the internet. Seriously, if I want to communicate with WV or Billy I write a letter or phone call. A person’s mental illness can and often is exasperated and fueled by the internet.

    Of course these are so drastic but the shooting today had more-if not all-of these elements. And I am so upset over this morning. One student interviewed reminded me so very much of my grandson. Same looks, same height, same speech-just makes me sick. Why are students like the shooter, so alone, so unbalanced, so depressed, so filled with violence, so oblivious and carefree as to lives of others. Where does that come from ?

    May 18, 2018 at 4:08 pm #86272
    Cal
    Participant

    While I don’t have any sympathy for wealthy people who complain about paying taxes, as a middle class person trying to raise three kids I am sympathetic to Trump voters who complain about big government.

    Trump voters complain about a government that year after year runs big deficits partly because of a social safety net that has grown by billions and billions of dollars since the 70’s.

    Yes, it’s important to help lift people out of poverty. But something seems broken at this point.

    Schools are a mess.
    Young people incur massive debt getting a college education.
    Health care is a mess.
    The economy is supposed to be strong and running smoothly but it seems broken.

    I can understand people who are pissed off, tired of paying taxes, and what to get theirs before this ship goes down.

    It’s not a smart, rational response but I understand the emotional appeal behind giving a big F U to the system.

    All that said, I hate Trump. At this point I would pay to see someone call him lying sack of dog shit in a nationally televised debate if he makes it to the next election.

    May 18, 2018 at 5:47 pm #86273
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    Cal wrote:

    While I don’t have any sympathy for wealthy people who complain about paying taxes, as a middle class person trying to raise three kids I am sympathetic to Trump voters who complain about big government.

    Trump voters complain about a government that year after year runs big deficits partly because of a social safety net that has grown by billions and billions of dollars since the 70’s.

    Yes, it’s important to help lift people out of poverty. But something seems broken at this point.

    Schools are a mess.
    Young people incur massive debt getting a college education.
    Health care is a mess.
    The economy is supposed to be strong and running smoothly but it seems broken.

    I can understand people who are pissed off, tired of paying taxes, and what to get theirs before this ship goes down.

    It’s not a smart, rational response but I understand the emotional appeal behind giving a big F U to the system.

    All that said, I hate Trump. At this point I would pay to see someone call him lying sack of dog shit in a nationally televised debate if he makes it to the next election.

    Hey, Cal,

    Hope all is well.

    You make a lot of good points.

    Thing is, taxes have fallen steadily for Americans since LBJ lowered the top rate from 91% to 70% in 1964. Both parties have slashed them . . . and for corporations, estate taxes, gift, capital gains, etc. etc. No one pays anything close to what they paid back in the day — from FDR thru LBJ, or from Nixon thru Carter. Not even remotely close.

    Obama, remember, made the Bush ten-year tax cuts permanent, and even raised the top bracket from 250K to 400K, so his tiny increase at the top only impacted dollars made from that point on. From your first dollar to that 400K point, under Obama you were paying the Bush marginal rates.

    Ironically, the major reason why kids today pay so much in tuition is because of the tax cut craze in the states which started in the 1970s, and accelerated under Reagan. New York and California, when I was young, had free state schools, and my own state, Maryland, supported Higher Ed enough so my tuition was a few hundred dollars a semester when I did my first round. I went back to school two more times, in two other decades and one other state, and the tuition rose as states cut back on their support.

    The national debt, of course, is as massive as it is because of all of those tax cuts. Well, and endless wars, too. But you can’t slash taxes, especially on rich people and corporations, almost non-stop for decades and not have a debt problem.

    I’d also disagree with Trump voters who claim the government’s social safety net is out of control. It’s actually been curtailed — again, in Dem and Republican administrations. Clinton, remember, “ended welfare as we know it,” and government has privatized and deregulated aggressively since the early 1970s.

    Fun fact: We have fewer Federal employees today than we did in 1962, even though we’ve added roughly 150 million new citizens.

    In short, I think Trump voters, in general, aren’t seeing things as they are.

    Just my take, anyway.

    May 19, 2018 at 11:28 am #86287
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator
    waterfield wrote:

    Why are students like the shooter, so alone, so unbalanced, so depressed, so filled with violence, so oblivious and carefree as to lives of others. Where does that come from ?

    Yeah I know what you mean. But presumably there have always been unbalanced, depressed, violent, and oblivious human beings. Some particularly famous ones were even emperors of Rome, for example.

    But this is the only country in the world where those types show up in the news quite often after using firearms to kill students in schools.

    May 19, 2018 at 4:04 pm #86295
    Cal
    Participant

    BT wrote

    I’d also disagree with Trump voters who claim the government’s social safety net is out of control. It’s actually been curtailed

    The number of people who receive benefits like SNAP has steadily increased since the 1970’s. Back then, it was 7-9% of the population that received SNAP benefits.

    Currently that number is 13% or so. When the US pays SNAP benefits for an extra 4% of the population that’s over a billion dollars a year. It’d be nice to put those billions dollars a year to solve some other problems.

    And that’s just SNAP. I’d bet there’s been a similar increase in the percent of people who receive WIC, EIC, Mecicaid, housing, and other benefits.

    May 19, 2018 at 4:30 pm #86296
    waterfield
    Participant

    We have far better and more accurate ways of identifying people in need today than 50 years ago. I say that’s a good thing not a bad thing.

    May 19, 2018 at 4:40 pm #86297
    waterfield
    Participant

    Another problem is our rapidly growing old-age entitlement programs. But I suspect a mandatory death program at a certain age might not be a popular political slogan.

    May 19, 2018 at 7:29 pm #86299
    Cal
    Participant
    waterfield wrote:

    We have far better and more accurate ways of identifying people in need today than 50 years ago. I say that’s a good thing not a bad thing.

    Maybe that explains the growing safety net, but I don’t thinks so.

    The amount the US pays for SNAP has tripled since 2000 and doubled since 2007. Our ability to identify people who need help hasn’t grown that much since 2007.

    I’ve not investigated this, but I’d guess we’d find the same trend for WIC, EIC, Medicaid, etc.

    I would guess the increasing cost of helping poor people can be linked to Wal-Mart and McDonald’s trends in America. Instead of decent paying full time jobs, people now are forced to work at Wal Mart and make 10 bucks an hour.

    As a result, Wal Mart owners and execs are billionaires and millionaires while the US tallies a bigger and bigger debt for my kids’ future in order to save poor people from abject poverty.

    I think Bernie might have put forth a version of this argument in 2016.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Cal.
    May 19, 2018 at 9:25 pm #86302
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    Cal wrote:

    BT wrote

    I’d also disagree with Trump voters who claim the government’s social safety net is out of control. It’s actually been curtailed

    The number of people who receive benefits like SNAP has steadily increased since the 1970’s. Back then, it was 7-9% of the population that received SNAP benefits.

    Currently that number is 13% or so. When the US pays SNAP benefits for an extra 4% of the population that’s over a billion dollars a year. It’d be nice to put those billions dollars a year to solve some other problems.

    And that’s just SNAP. I’d bet there’s been a similar increase in the percent of people who receive WIC, EIC, Mecicaid, housing, and other benefits.

    Cal,

    SNAP goes to mostly children and the elderly. They are the largest recipients, by far. That’s food they wouldn’t otherwise be able to afford. It keeps those 45 million people from going hungry. To me, there isn’t a better way to spend that money . . . and it all works its way through the economy too. Not only does it feed children and the elderly, it also boosts the economy, from farms to grocery stores, etc. etc.

    As for why the numbers have grown: Wages for the rank and file in America have been largely flat since 1973, which was the end of our one and only middle class boom. Since then, more and more families had to switch from one income to two, and then use a credit card, and then mortgage their house, just to keep above water. If business owners/corporations paid better wages, we wouldn’t need the SNAP program, or most of the rest of the safety net. It’s there because of the immense greed at the top of the pyramid.

    If the private sector paid fair wages, we could do without a great many of the programs that bother you. Walmart is a great example of this. Many of their employees are on SNAP — this while their CEO makes 1200 times as much as their rank and file.

    May 19, 2018 at 9:32 pm #86303
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    Cal wrote:
    waterfield wrote:

    We have far better and more accurate ways of identifying people in need today than 50 years ago. I say that’s a good thing not a bad thing.

    Maybe that explains the growing safety net, but I don’t thinks so.

    The amount the US pays for SNAP has tripled since 2000 and doubled since 2007. Our ability to identify people who need help hasn’t grown that much since 2007.

    I’ve not investigated this, but I’d guess we’d find the same trend for WIC, EIC, Medicaid, etc.

    I would guess the increasing cost of helping poor people can be linked to Wal-Mart and McDonald’s trends in America. Instead of decent paying full time jobs, people now are forced to work at Wal Mart and make 10 bucks an hour.

    As a result, Wal Mart owners and execs are billionaires and millionaires while the US tallies a bigger and bigger debt for my kids’ future in order to save poor people from abject poverty.

    I think Bernie might have put forth a version of this argument in 2016.

    Cal,

    I posted the other response before reading this one. It looks like you already get a lot of the reasons for the changes.

    Also, you have to factor in the crash of 2008. The increase in the numbers had a LOT to do with the tens of millions throw out of work because of the Great Recession.

    Families really haven’t recovered even to this day.

    This report just came out from United Way. Their ALICE project. It’s pretty shocking:

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/economy/us-middle-class-basics-study/index.html

    Excerpt:

    The economy may be chugging along, but many Americans are still struggling to afford a basic middle class life.

    Nearly 51 million households don’t earn enough to afford a monthly budget that includes housing, food, child care, health care, transportation and a cell phone, according to a study released Thursday by the United Way ALICE Project. That’s 43% of households in the United States.

    Related: Unemployment is below 4% for the first time since 2000

    The figure includes the 16.1 million households living in poverty, as well as the 34.7 million families that the United Way has dubbed ALICE — Asset Limited, Income Constrained, Employed. This group makes less than what’s needed “to survive in the modern economy.”

    “Despite seemingly positive economic signs, the ALICE data shows that financial hardship is still a pervasive problem,” said Stephanie Hoopes, the project’s director.

    May 19, 2018 at 11:48 pm #86315
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator
    waterfield wrote:

    I have many republican friends. Some are wayyyyyy to the right whom I don’t care for. Others are moderate. But to a person they ALL say they would vote for Trump again notwithstanding their distaste to the man himself.Their reasons? His policies.

    Notwithstanding the polls-I think this is a real problem. We are born with “self interest” and he preaches to that. We want what WE want-not what others need. The capitalistic system teaches us that our happiness is dependent on what we “gather” not what we can give. Trump’s claimer is “hey I may be an Ass hole but I can give you (not others in need ) more toys you can enjoy.

    So what can be done?

    While I have been an optimist for soooooo many years I no longer am. Not because of Trump but because of my “friends” who I talk to. Where in the world did they learn its all about “them”. Is there anything that can practically be done?

    Good post.

    There’s this though.

    There is a shift in the political wind. It’s happening. I don’t know how big it is, but it’s underway. And not just because Trump is a jerk, but…because of his policies.

    Granted there are enclaves like you describe where the old world is hanging on.

    But there are shifts takin place out there. ‘

    May 20, 2018 at 11:49 am #86323
    Avatar photonittany ram
    Moderator
    Cal wrote:
    waterfield wrote:

    We have far better and more accurate ways of identifying people in need today than 50 years ago. I say that’s a good thing not a bad thing.

    Maybe that explains the growing safety net, but I don’t thinks so.

    The amount the US pays for SNAP has tripled since 2000 and doubled since 2007. Our ability to identify people who need help hasn’t grown that much since 2007.

    I’ve not investigated this, but I’d guess we’d find the same trend for WIC, EIC, Medicaid, etc.

    I would guess the increasing cost of helping poor people can be linked to Wal-Mart and McDonald’s trends in America. Instead of decent paying full time jobs, people now are forced to work at Wal Mart and make 10 bucks an hour.

    As a result, Wal Mart owners and execs are billionaires and millionaires while the US tallies a bigger and bigger debt for my kids’ future in order to save poor people from abject poverty.

    I think Bernie might have put forth a version of this argument in 2016.

    The social safety net is a mere pittance compared to the safety net afforded corporations through subsidies, etc; ie, corporate welfare.

    ss

    May 20, 2018 at 12:06 pm #86324
    Cal
    Participant

    There is a shift in the political wind. It’s happening. I don’t know how big it is, but it’s underway. And not just because Trump is a jerk, but…because of his policies.

    I don’t want to sound like a Trump supporter because…well gag me.

    But there’s a ton of positive stuff happening for Trump right now.

    The North Korea talks and reconciliation with South Korea is amazing. Before those developments there seemed to be murmurings in the MSN about Trump’s incompetence leading to a nuclear showdown. Now peace seems to be on the horizon.

    Again, I hate the guy, and wonder how much–if any–credit he deserves for this development. But you know he will take credit for resolving the problem. And millions of Americans will accept that and give him credit.

    Jobs, jobs, jobs. The economy keeps adding jobs. Manufacturing has added 245,000 jobs going back to last April. Again, Trump will attribute this growth to his tax cuts and take credit.

    I suspect people who are now working and making more money won’t argue with him.

    Mining industries have added 86,000 jobs since last April. Do you think that growth would have occurred with anyone besides a Republican?

    Trump appears to be actually fighting and working for American manufacturing jobs. I know your no fan of Obama, but I can’t recall Obama doing much to defend and support American manufacturiong.

    (All this info comes from the bureau of labor and statistics. Just google “job reports”)

    When I read the tea leaves I don’t see much positive apart from the Mueller investigation. We’ll see, but I’m not hopeful.

    May 20, 2018 at 12:24 pm #86326
    Cal
    Participant

    By my math, the US spent 560 billion on safety net programs (SNAP, EIC, Medicaid, TANF, HUD) in 2016.

    We spent 2.4 Trillion on everything besides medicare and social security, which should be paid for with payroll taxes. See my link to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/media/File:CBO_Infographic_2016.png

    So, about 1/5 of the budget, apart from medicare and social security costs, went to supporting the safety net.

    Based on that graphic from Occupy Democrats, I would have paid 200 bucks in taxes if 1/5 of my taxes went to supporting the safety net. I paid a helluva lot more than that last year. And I’m probably unusual in that I can claim 3 kids.

    I’m not against helping the poor. I’m just arguing that the system is broken and conservatives who complain about an over sized safety net have a point.

    This country needs to do a better job of providing poor people with good paying jobs.

    May 20, 2018 at 1:54 pm #86328
    Avatar photonittany ram
    Moderator
    Cal wrote:

    There is a shift in the political wind. It’s happening. I don’t know how big it is, but it’s underway. And not just because Trump is a jerk, but…because of his policies.

    I don’t want to sound like a Trump supporter because…well gag me.

    But there’s a ton of positive stuff happening for Trump right now.

    The North Korea talks and reconciliation with South Korea is amazing. Before those developments there seemed to be murmurings in the MSN about Trump’s incompetence leading to a nuclear showdown. Now peace seems to be on the horizon.

    Again, I hate the guy, and wonder how much–if any–credit he deserves for this development. But you know he will take credit for resolving the problem. And millions of Americans will accept that and give him credit.

    Jobs, jobs, jobs. The economy keeps adding jobs. Manufacturing has added 245,000 jobs going back to last April. Again, Trump will attribute this growth to his tax cuts and take credit.

    I suspect people who are now working and making more money won’t argue with him.

    Mining industries have added 86,000 jobs since last April. Do you think that growth would have occurred with anyone besides a Republican?

    Trump appears to be actually fighting and working for American manufacturing jobs. I know your no fan of Obama, but I can’t recall Obama doing much to defend and support American manufacturiong.

    (All this info comes from the bureau of labor and statistics. Just google “job reports”)

    When I read the tea leaves I don’t see much positive apart from the Mueller investigation. We’ll see, but I’m not hopeful.

    Yeah, a lot of where the credit is placed will depend on which side does the better job of spinning.

    My thoughts are North Korea isn’t coming to the bargaining table because of Trump. They’re coming now because they finally have something to bargain with; ie, a missle that can strike a part of the US. Trump is going to take credit and probably will be able to convince a lot of voters that he is responsible for NK’s willingness to negotiate. However, Trump has said that he is looking for full nuclear disarmament on the part of NK. NK has said that ain’t gonna happen. So I’m not convinced any deal is gonna be struck anytime soon.

    Trump is getting credit for creating jobs but job growth in his first year lags behind Obama’s last 4 years. Trump is trying to take credit for the improved economy but it could be argued that what’s happening with the economy is just a continuation of what was happening during Obama’s second term. But the picture isn’t all rosey as many companies are laying off workers or moving operations overseas despite the tax breaks. And as you said there’s still a dearth if good paying jobs. Many people are under employed. The economy isn’t as healthy as Trump likes to claim, but I think his supporters believe it is and convincing them otherwise will be a challenge.

    May 20, 2018 at 1:56 pm #86329
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    Cal wrote:

    There is a shift in the political wind. It’s happening. I don’t know how big it is, but it’s underway. And not just because Trump is a jerk, but…because of his policies.

    I don’t want to sound like a Trump supporter because…well gag me.

    But there’s a ton of positive stuff happening for Trump right now.

    The North Korea talks and reconciliation with South Korea is amazing. Before those developments there seemed to be murmurings in the MSN about Trump’s incompetence leading to a nuclear showdown. Now peace seems to be on the horizon.

    Again, I hate the guy, and wonder how much–if any–credit he deserves for this development. But you know he will take credit for resolving the problem. And millions of Americans will accept that and give him credit.

    Jobs, jobs, jobs. The economy keeps adding jobs. Manufacturing has added 245,000 jobs going back to last April. Again, Trump will attribute this growth to his tax cuts and take credit.

    I suspect people who are now working and making more money won’t argue with him.

    Mining industries have added 86,000 jobs since last April. Do you think that growth would have occurred with anyone besides a Republican?

    Trump appears to be actually fighting and working for American manufacturing jobs. I know your no fan of Obama, but I can’t recall Obama doing much to defend and support American manufacturiong.

    (All this info comes from the bureau of labor and statistics. Just google “job reports”)

    When I read the tea leaves I don’t see much positive apart from the Mueller investigation. We’ll see, but I’m not hopeful.

    Cal,

    Trump is averaging fewer jobs per month so far than Obama did in his last six years. It’s roughly 187K to 203K. He’s also averaging a lower rate of income gains than Obama.

    I wasn’t a fan of Obama’s governance, because I saw him — and still do — as governing like a moderate Republican. But the results were better for him than for Trump.

    Also, if people are happy with a few dollars more on their paychecks (after the tax cuts), they should think about a coupla things at least:

    1. All of that money was borrowed and has to be paid back.
    2. The tax cuts made economic inequality skyrocket, because most of them went to the rich. Trump himself should pocket tens of millions more each year, and his heirs could potentially pocket billions — if he’s as rich as he says he is.

    May 20, 2018 at 2:04 pm #86330
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    nittany ram wrote:

    Yeah, a lot of where the credit is placed will depend on which side does the better job of spinning.

    My thoughts are North Korea isn’t coming to the bargaining table because of Trump. They’re coming now because they finally have something to bargain with; ie, a middle that can strike a part of the US. Trump is going to take credit and probably will be able to convince a lot of voters that he is responsible for NK’s willingness to negotiate. However, Trump has said that he is looking for full nuclear disarmament in the part of NK. NK has said that ain’t gonna happen. So I’m not convinced any deal is gonna be struck anytime soon.

    Trump is getting credit for creating jobs but job growth in his first year lags behind Obama’s last 4 years. Trump is trying to take credit for the improved economy but it could be argued that what’s happening with the economy is just a continuation of what was happening during Obama’s second term. But the picture isn’t all rosey as many companies are laying off workers or moving operations overseas despite the tax breaks. And as you said there’s still a dearth if good paying jobs. Many people are under employed. The economy isn’t as healthy as Trump likes to claim, but I think his supporters believe it is and convincing them otherwise will be a challenge.

    I agree with all of that, Nittany.

    I’m really not seeing what Trump has done to help the economy at all. Deregulation doesn’t do that. Privatization doesn’t do that. Tax cuts for the rich doesn’t do that. Unless by “the economy” people mean just Ownership/CEOs, and not workers and consumers. And the deregulation and privatization is definitely killing the planet.

    No workers have benefited from the Trump/GOP agenda. In fact, they’ve all be hurt by it. Less safe in the workplace. Less secure in their jobs. It’s now much easier for companies to export jobs, reduce benefits, pay less. Trump and the GOP have helped Capital tremendously. But not Labor, and they’ve been devastating to the environment.

    May 20, 2018 at 2:15 pm #86331
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    Cal wrote:

    By my math, the US spent 560 billion on safety net programs (SNAP, EIC, Medicaid, TANF, HUD) in 2016.

    We spent 2.4 Trillion on everything besides medicare and social security, which should be paid for with payroll taxes. See my link to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/media/File:CBO_Infographic_2016.png

    So, about 1/5 of the budget, apart from medicare and social security costs, went to supporting the safety net.

    Based on that graphic from Occupy Democrats, I would have paid 200 bucks in taxes if 1/5 of my taxes went to supporting the safety net. I paid a helluva lot more than that last year. And I’m probably unusual in that I can claim 3 kids.

    I’m not against helping the poor. I’m just arguing that the system is broken and conservatives who complain about an over sized safety net have a point.

    This country needs to do a better job of providing poor people with good paying jobs.

    Cal,

    The problem with conservatives in this case, though, is that they’ll never force companies to pay better wages. In fact, their agenda is to remove the all too lax regulations we do have on the books, and to crush unions to death, which once were able to ensure higher wages for everyone — even non-union workers — and much better benefits.

    In short, they want to shrink the safety net but offer nothing else to replace it. Just more of the same old same old hard neoliberalism. The Dems, unfortunately, counter with soft neoliberalism, so there is no party in power fighting for workers, the poor, the consumer or the environment — at least not enough to matter.

    As mentioned upthread, I’d rather we had the kind of economy that provides for everyone upfront, so no government offsets are needed later. I’d rather it do its job so there isn’t any need for help from charities or the public sector.

    As long as we have capitalism, however, that’s not going to happen. Capitalism is built to concentrate wealth, income, privilege and power at the top. It’s always going to generate poverty in its wake, and the working poor, and a shrinking middle. If there isn’t any government intervention to offset this, those people will suffer even more.

    In short, we can’t have capitalism and no safety net at the same time. That’s just sadism on steroids, and we’d end up with revolution in the streets, too.

    May 20, 2018 at 3:17 pm #86332
    Cal
    Participant

    Take a closer look at manufacturing jobs which is the type of job Americans need to return.

    Manufcturing jobs have declined have declined steadily–in 2000 there were 17.3 million manufacturing jobs in the US. The US kept losing those jobs with a low of 11.5 million jobs after the Great Recession.

    Under Obama, manufacturing jobs rebounded steadily before plateauing at 12.3 million jobs in the beginning of 2015.

    A year and a half later there were still only 12.35 million manufacturing jobs by August 2016, just months before the election.

    In the year before the election, Obama’s economy lost manufacturing jobs in 8 out of the 12 months.

    Since 1/17 Trump’s economy has lost manufacturing jobs just one month. By 1/18 manufacturing jobs had ticked upwards to 12.6 million.

    After stalling at 12.3 million for Obama, Trump has steadily added 300,000 manufacturing jobs.

    If this trend continues all summer, I fear 2018 will be more disappointing than we’d like.

    Trump and his policies WILL get credit for this growth in the economy.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Cal.
    May 20, 2018 at 3:23 pm #86334
    Avatar photonittany ram
    Moderator
    Billy_T wrote:
    nittany ram wrote:

    Yeah, a lot of where the credit is placed will depend on which side does the better job of spinning.

    My thoughts are North Korea isn’t coming to the bargaining table because of Trump. They’re coming now because they finally have something to bargain with; ie, a middle that can strike a part of the US. Trump is going to take credit and probably will be able to convince a lot of voters that he is responsible for NK’s willingness to negotiate. However, Trump has said that he is looking for full nuclear disarmament in the part of NK. NK has said that ain’t gonna happen. So I’m not convinced any deal is gonna be struck anytime soon.

    Trump is getting credit for creating jobs but job growth in his first year lags behind Obama’s last 4 years. Trump is trying to take credit for the improved economy but it could be argued that what’s happening with the economy is just a continuation of what was happening during Obama’s second term. But the picture isn’t all rosey as many companies are laying off workers or moving operations overseas despite the tax breaks. And as you said there’s still a dearth if good paying jobs. Many people are under employed. The economy isn’t as healthy as Trump likes to claim, but I think his supporters believe it is and convincing them otherwise will be a challenge.

    I agree with all of that, Nittany.

    I’m really not seeing what Trump has done to help the economy at all. Deregulation doesn’t do that. Privatization doesn’t do that. Tax cuts for the rich doesn’t do that. Unless by “the economy” people mean just Ownership/CEOs, and not workers and consumers. And the deregulation and privatization is definitely killing the planet.

    No workers have benefited from the Trump/GOP agenda. In fact, they’ve all be hurt by it. Less safe in the workplace. Less secure in their jobs. It’s now much easier for companies to export jobs, reduce benefits, pay less. Trump and the GOP have helped Capital tremendously. But not Labor, and they’ve been devastating to the environment.

    Yeah, the fairest and most economically sound way for capitalism to work is to tax the rich more and to pay workers more. That’s what is happening in Minnesota and California and their economies are booming. That’s the strategy the entire country should be using. Trump’s plan of shifting the burden of taxation from the rich and massively deregulating corporations isn’t sustainable and any temporary economic gains come at the expense of the poor and working class.

    May 20, 2018 at 3:51 pm #86335
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    Cal wrote:

    Take a closer look at manufacturing jobs which is the type of job Americans need to return.

    Manufcturing jobs have declined have declined steadily–in 2000 there were 17.3 million manufacturing jobs in the US. The US kept losing those jobs with a low of 11.5 million jobs after the Great Recession.

    Under Obama, manufacturing jobs rebounded steadily before plateauing at 12.3 million jobs in the beginning of 2015.

    A year and a half later there were still only 12.35 million manufacturing jobs by August 2016, just months before the election.

    In the year before the election, Obama’s economy lost manufacturing jobs in 8 out of the 12 months.

    Since 1/17 Trump’s economy has lost manufacturing jobs just one month. By 1/18 manufacturing jobs had ticked upwards to 12.6 million.

    After stalling at 12.3 million for Obama, Trump has steadily added 300,000 manufacturing jobs.

    If this trend continues all summer, I fear 2018 will be more disappointing than we’d like.

    Trump and his policies WILL get credit for this growth in the economy.

    But what are those policies, Cal?

    I paid very close attention to Trump during the campaign, and he never spelled them out for anyone. And I would ask his supporters what they were, and they couldn’t answer, other than to say Make America Great Again.

    If he does get credit for the economy, it will likely only be among the people who would vote for him anyway, and he’ll get it from them without ever revealing exactly what he’s done to “earn” that credit.

    That said, the Dems could very well blow this on their own. If I could direct them in any way, it would be to forget about Russia, concentrate on Trump’s corruption, grifting and pay to play while in office, run against Washington using all of that, and push an agenda for workers, by, for and on behalf of workers.

    Promise a $17 minimum wage
    Tuition-free college in all state schools
    Medicare for all, with a buy-in too until we can transition fully to the new system

    I’d also promise to overturn every single anti-labor and anti-union law or regulation on the books, by whatever legal means possible. Taft-Hartley and all the rest.

    For starters . . .

    May 20, 2018 at 5:14 pm #86336
    Cal
    Participant

    But what are those policies, Cal?

    I paid very close attention to Trump during the campaign, and he never spelled them out for anyone. And I would ask his supporters what they were, and they couldn’t answer, other than to say Make America Great Again.

    If he does get credit for the economy, it will likely only be among the people who would vote for him anyway, and he’ll get it from them without ever revealing exactly what he’s done to “earn” that credit.

    I have no interest in defending Trump. But what I would like to do is have an accurate picture of the conditions in our country.

    How would you explain the fact that an important industry saw a small retraction in 8 of the 12 months before Trump AND then reversed course and saw significant growth in 12 of the 13 months after Trump took office?

    Is that just a coincidence? Maybe, the economy does seem a bit mercurial to me.

    But i know–and I think you do too–what Republicans will say.

    And they have a damn good argument too.

    Here’s a link to an interview from the time of the discussions about the tax cuts that underscores the arguments that Republicans will be making in the mid-terms if the trends in job growth continue.

    https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace/11162017

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