Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Rams Huddle › Chris Borland retires
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March 16, 2015 at 10:39 pm #20766znhaterBlockedMarch 17, 2015 at 7:07 am #20768PA RamParticipant
Pete Prisco @PriscoCBS 7h7 hours ago
Sudden retirements have to be a major concern to the NFL moving forward.If this becomes a regular thing–if we start to see it, I wonder how everything will change in the NFL. It seems to me that there will always be SOMEONE willing to put their health at risk to play the game. But if it happens a lot will the NFL get scared? Will they come up with another set of rules that significantly change the game, in the interest of safety?
And how will fans react to that?
This sounds extreme but could we one day see a sort of flag football version of the NFL?
Or will they just accept a revolving door of talent and sign guys to shorter contracts? It can fundamentally change any team at a moments notice.
Boreland wasn’t just a “guy”. He was an excellent football player. He was young.
Goodell probably isn’t sleeping easy.
Interesting times in the NFL.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
March 17, 2015 at 7:15 am #20769PA RamParticipantChris Borland retweeted
Neil deGrasse Tyson @neiltyson · Feb 1
Just an FYI: A 250 lb football player, running 15 mph, has more kinetic energy than a bullet fired from an AK-47 rifle."Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
March 17, 2015 at 7:45 am #20770canadaramParticipant@tmcdonaldjr: I understand this is a dangerous game but we know what we signed up for. Been playin all our life.. Don’t change up now #justball @nfl
March 17, 2015 at 8:12 am #20771WinnbradParticipantI don’t know. We might see a player retire early, once in a great while, due to injury risk. But I think the NFL will keep raising the salary cap, throw more money at the players, and make it harder to walk away.
It’s not a bad bargaining chip for the union, though.
March 17, 2015 at 9:06 am #20772wvParticipant@tmcdonaldjr: I understand this is a dangerous game but we know what we signed up for. Been playin all our life.. Don’t change up now #justball @nfl
Well, i think NOW, the players, for the most part know the risks,
cause the NFL is coming clean about it now —
but, in the olden days, i dont think the players knew
ALL the risks. I think they kinda had a general idea
but now they have more of a complete-picture.Will the players still play ? — sure. A lot of folks
would play the game for money and status they get. And maybe
some for the sheer joy of it, as well.Hang-gliding has risks, parachuting has risks, blah blah blah.
Life has risks.w
vMarch 17, 2015 at 9:26 am #20773DakParticipantSo many NFL players know the risks and play the game. Borland is one exception. A notable exception, but just one. It usually takes a player to get multiple concussions before deciding to quit the game. I respect Borland’s decision, though. Respect the hell out of it.
March 17, 2015 at 10:25 am #20775ZooeyModeratorI think we may see more people hang it up after concussions, but for this kind of money, I’m pretty sure almost everyone is willing to risk that first concussion for sure, and maybe a second before even considering retirement.
Boy, the 9ers are certainly headed the wrong direction it seems. At least in personnel. Probably coaching, too, but nobody knows there for sure.
March 17, 2015 at 11:59 am #20781rflParticipantWhat bothers me in a topic like this is the traditionalist rejection of change.
The game demands physical toughness, and that requirement won’t go away. I don’t see much of a way to protect, for example, knees. And the game is going to feature hitting.
But there are things to do to reduce the threat of truly serious injury, especially to the head. Consider the helmet. The hardness of the shell and the masks were developed to protect. But I think it’s pretty clear that they don’t protect much and have become weapons.
Want to cut back on concussions? Make the helmet soft. And remove the face mask. Force the players to play with exposed faces. That’s how football was played for many decades. And rugby players today have no protection for their faces. A few guys wear soft head gear, mainly the front rowers who are protecting their ears. But no one has face protection.
Watch a rugby international some time, and you’ll see that it doesn’t prevent people from playing a rough game very hard. But it DOES affect the technique used for tackling. No one head hunts using the unhelmeted head. That would be suicide. People learn classic tackling technique that limits damage to both tackler and tackled.
Now, there are a lot of concussions in rugby. More today than in the past. The players are bigger and faster and the game is chasing American football-styled violence. After all, the TV screens are lighting up with “big hits” as they do here. And this is a change. Old-school rugby was an incredibly tough sport, but the violence tended to involve punches and stamps, and so forth. The sort of aggression that hurt, but didn’t often maim. People knew how to tackle relatively safely. The gamje is still played that way at mid- and lower-division clubs. My son played mid-division rugby for 6 months in Leicester, and there were 50 year old guys turning out for the C games. They knew how to play without getting hurt. The game CAN be played that way. Traditionalists talk about ways to return the scrum to what it used to be–a finessed wrestling match requiring skill rather than today’s “hit”-based collisions between front rows.
The point is that you can play the game in different ways. And sporting culture determines how it will be played. And what ultimately decides everything is the culture.
When it comes to the NFL, we tend to think about what “the league” does, and how that is dictated by TV interests. But think about it for a moment. TV wants to make money. When people talk about “flag football,” TV would resist because they don’t want to lose money.
But notice what that statement means. What if flag football were MORE POPULAR than what we’re used to? TV would show that and be delighted. TV doesn’t care what is broadcast so long as it makes money.
“Flag football” wouldn’t work because American football culture WANTS THE OLD GAME! You can see that in comments on this board, all over the net, and in any conversation between fans. Football lovers WANT big hits and they WANT the sort of ersatz armor image that comes with shoulder pads and helmets. We all love that shit. I can remember when I first put on pads and helmet in HS, Damn, it felt cool. And we all love highlight reels with huge hits and the heroics of those who withstand them.
WE ALL LOVE THE GAME THAT CAUSES CONCUSSIONS!
Now, set aside for a moment our traditional expectations and demands. Just imagine a slightly different game.
Soft helmets with no masks. A football culture that from the earliest ages taught KIDS how to hit without using the head. There’s still plenty of room for toughness. Again, watch rugby and you can see it. But if the CULTURE were broadly committed to changing the techniques of contact, if football people–fans, coaches, players–shifted their values to eliminate head-hunting, you could have a pretty damn good game and a lot fewer concussions.
Of course, that’s a pipe dream. At least for now. There’s no push for that. Pundits, coaches, players, and fans are nervously wondering about all this, but no one is really willing to IMAGINE a game without traditionally key elements.
So, OK. I understand why that is. But if we are going to be intellectually honest, we need to understand something.
A traditionalist model of American football pays an unnecessarily high price in concussions because of traditional equipment, techniques, and values.
Anyone who defends that model ought to be willing to understand that price, and say, honestly, “I am willing to let human beings pay the price with body and mind so I can hold on to the entirety of my idea of football. It COULD be different, and the differences could be wonderful. But I am unwilling to take the human costs seriously enough to imagine a different game.”
‘Cause that’s where 95% of the American football establishment–fans perhaps even more than other levels–resides these days. We are willing to let young men pay the price to sustain an unnecessarily vicious game ’cause we like that game the way it is. And we especially like the helmets and vicious hits that costs people their brains. Don’t ask us to consider changing it.
What I detest is the average fan’s unwillingness to honestly recognize the price of it all.
- This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by rfl.
By virtue of the absurd ...
March 17, 2015 at 3:01 pm #20785March 17, 2015 at 3:03 pm #20786PA RamParticipantWell, I agree with all of that, RFL.
I don’t want flag football. I wouldn’t watch it. I mean–if that’s all there was, who knows? But I don’t think I’d be interested.
I love the hits.
And somewhere in my mind, I push the horrible cost of those hits away.
And I enjoy the game.
But players can’t just push that stuff away. They live with it, as do their families. I’m amazed sometimes that anyone signs up for this–even at the big money. Still, they keep signing up. And while some may walk away, many more will not.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
March 17, 2015 at 3:45 pm #20788rflParticipantI don’t want flag football. I wouldn’t watch it. I mean–if that’s all there was, who knows? But I don’t think I’d be interested.
I love the hits.
And somewhere in my mind, I push the horrible cost of those hits away.
And I enjoy the game.
Step 1 is honesty. For all of us.
Step 2 is the notion that we MIGHT develop a safer alternative.
Nobody wants flag football. The question is, might there be a variant of the game we love that is safer, while still allowing plenty of hits?
Watch rugby for a few months, and I think you’ll conclude that there might be such a thing. Not flag football. But safer than what we know now.
I really wish leaders in the sport would begin a conversation about those possibilities!
By virtue of the absurd ...
March 17, 2015 at 3:50 pm #20789rflParticipantFood for thought, RFL.
Again, WV, I’d simply point out that the videos you cite are all about the “dirty secret.”
I think as long as the question is posed that way, there’ll be no progress.
We need vision casters to lead the pursuit of ways to raise safety without destroying the game.
One of the problems is that everyone thinks immediately of rules changes. But as you know from inside the legal profession, rules applied as band-aids never work. Rules, regulations, and laws without community consensus are useless.
Personally, I think the best way forward would be to question the helmet. Change the helmet and techniques would change WITHOUT rules changes.
Anyway, things to think about.
By virtue of the absurd ...
March 17, 2015 at 3:55 pm #20790WinnbradParticipantRFl,
I think most fans recognize the price. Not all, but most. The problem is we don’t care. And I’ll tell you why I, personally, don’t care.
These players are grown men. They sign the contracts, and they cash the checks. That’s a lot of money. There’s also the pursuit of fame, women, competition, showing how macho they are, yada yada.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want anyone to get hurt, but I can think of very few sports where athletes aren’t injured from time to time. Granted, most don’t incur the long-term injuries that football players do. Maybe there is no sport more dangerous than pro football? I don’t know.
There’s no way a player comes into the NFL these days with their eyes closed. Like WV said, maybe in the old days players didn’t know anything about the long-term damage they were signing up for. But today, they know. IMO, they’re choosing to ignore it for a whole lot of reasons.
They way I feel about NFL players is the same way I feel about some guy that goes hang-gliding, or decides to swim with some sharks. If they get hurt, it’s their problem. They had freewill, and they chose to do something risky.
So at the end of it all, I don’t HAVE to have football played the way it was 40 years ago, or to even be as violent as it is today, in order to enjoy it. I like the rule changes that protect players. I’d like to see more. But nothing will change unless the players force that change. As long as they’re willing to cash the checks and bash their brains in, people are gonna watch.
That doesn’t make it right. Just saying.
March 17, 2015 at 4:22 pm #20792rflParticipantI appreciate your honesty, Man. But consider this:
But nothing will change unless the players force that change. As long as they’re willing to cash the checks and bash their brains in, people are gonna watch.
See, I think this is backwards thinking. Checks will lead people to risk their lives. Indeed.
My point is the SOURCE of those checks! The checks arise from a massively consistent consensus in the football culture about what “we want.” Change the culture, and you change the source of the checks.
My question is this: are we willing to imagine a game that does less damage to brains?
It has to be far more than a few rules tweaks. They don’t work anyway. We have rules to “protect” QBs and they distort the game because they don’t change the fact that violent men armed with brutal weapons in the form of helmets are trying to stop the QBs. The rule can’t change that core reality.
The CULTURE has to change. That will change the source of the checks.
And it has to be done at a far more organic, core level than the play of the professionals in the league. Remember, tens of thousands of young men, many of them children, are affected by this. It’s not just NFL guys. Hell, I played a game mildly concussed once at Div. III level.
And that, really, is where change will have to happen. In a sense, I think it’s inevitable. There will be lawsuits involving Pee Wee leagues and school districts and gradually parents will demand change. Eventually, those changes at the grassroots level will change the game and people’s expectations.
Of course, all that will take time. A generation or more.
Which is American football’s existential threat. If changes aren’t made faster, there is a good chance that enough parents will sign their kids up for soccer or la crosse to undermine the football fan base. That actually seems to me to be a fairly likely scenario. I don’t think we’re all that far from a tipping point where we become a soccer nation. And parents of children will lead the way.
By virtue of the absurd ...
March 17, 2015 at 4:31 pm #20794wvParticipantI appreciate your honesty, Man. But consider this:
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Winnbrad wrote:</div>
But nothing will change unless the players force that change. As long as they’re willing to cash the checks and bash their brains in, people are gonna watch.See, I think this is backwards thinking. Checks will lead people to risk their lives. Indeed.
My point is the SOURCE of those checks! The checks arise from a massively consistent consensus in the football culture about what “we want.” Change the culture, and you change the source of the checks.
My question is this: are we willing to imagine a game that does less damage to brains?
It has to be far more than a few rules tweaks. They don’t work anyway. We have rules to “protect” QBs and they distort the game because they don’t change the fact that violent men armed with brutal weapons in the form of helmets are trying to stop the QBs. The rule can’t change that core reality.
The CULTURE has to change. That will change the source of the checks.
And it has to be done at a far more organic, core level than the play of the professionals in the league. Remember, tens of thousands of young men, many of them children, are affected by this. It’s not just NFL guys. Hell, I played a game mildly concussed once at Div. III level.
And that, really, is where change will have to happen. In a sense, I think it’s inevitable. There will be lawsuits involving Pee Wee leagues and school districts and gradually parents will demand change. Eventually, those changes at the grassroots level will change the game and people’s expectations.
Of course, all that will take time. A generation or more.
Which is American football’s existential threat. If changes aren’t made faster, there is a good chance that enough parents will sign their kids up for soccer or la crosse to undermine the football fan base. That actually seems to me to be a fairly likely scenario. I don’t think we’re all that far from a tipping point where we become a soccer nation. And parents of children will lead the way.
Well, the one suggestion you offered was a change in headgear.
And It might be interesting if the NFL tried some experiments
with that during the pre-season, but i have no idea whether
that would be safer. Maybe it would lead to some more deadly
or sudden-catastrophic types of injuries. I have no idea.But I’m all for a National conversation about all of this.
I got no answers.w
vMarch 17, 2015 at 4:56 pm #20795WinnbradParticipantSee, I think this is backwards thinking. Checks will lead people to risk their lives. Indeed.
My point is the SOURCE of those checks! The checks arise from a massively consistent consensus in the football culture about what “we want.” Change the culture, and you change the source of the checks.
My question is this: are we willing to imagine a game that does less damage to brains?
It has to be far more than a few rules tweaks. They don’t work anyway. We have rules to “protect” QBs and they distort the game because they don’t change the fact that violent men armed with brutal weapons in the form of helmets are trying to stop the QBs. The rule can’t change that core reality.
The CULTURE has to change. That will change the source of the checks.
And it has to be done at a far more organic, core level than the play of the professionals in the league. Remember, tens of thousands of young men, many of them children, are affected by this. It’s not just NFL guys. Hell, I played a game mildly concussed once at Div. III level.
And that, really, is where change will have to happen. In a sense, I think it’s inevitable. There will be lawsuits involving Pee Wee leagues and school districts and gradually parents will demand change. Eventually, those changes at the grassroots level will change the game and people’s expectations.
Of course, all that will take time. A generation or more.
Which is American football’s existential threat. If changes aren’t made faster, there is a good chance that enough parents will sign their kids up for soccer or la crosse to undermine the football fan base. That actually seems to me to be a fairly likely scenario. I don’t think we’re all that far from a tipping point where we become a soccer nation. And parents of children will lead the way.
I agree with you, RFL. I really do. I think a culture change would impact football in a positive way. I’d love to see it.
Our culture moves so slowly, though, unless something catastrophic happens. And even then, it has to effect a lot of wealthy, and middle income, white people. That’s when the shit hits the fan.
As for parents, yeah, I could see them sending little Johnny to play soccer, baseball, whatever, instead of football. Football still rules the roost, though, at least in popularity. But could it lose ground to other sports because of the long-term injuries? Yeah, imo. It could. It may even be inevitable, without some changes to the league.
So to your question – “are we willing to imagine a game that does less damage to brains?”
It’s just my opinion, of course, and I hate to say this, but right now the answer our culture would give you is, “hell no”. Personally, I would like to see less damage to everyone and every body part. But I just don’t see it happening without players being the driving force behind it.
There was an interview, several years ago, with Carson Palmer and some other vets. It was one of those “round table” discussons. I don’t remember who was running it. But one of the questions was about what would cause the NFL (the league) to change the culture among players and coaches, as it relates to safety. Carson said “someone would have to die on the field.”
Now Carson is a pretty smart guy, and I don’t think he’s prone to hyperbole, although he could be. But that whole room went silent. It hit home with everyone there.
So our football “fan culture” needs to change, but it needs to change with players, too. And imo, the players have more power to instigate that change, and faster, than anyone else.
March 17, 2015 at 5:05 pm #20796rflParticipantWell, the one suggestion you offered was a change in headgear.
Well, that would change a lot.
But it’s also a matter of how players are coached. When you’re a kid, you are taught the basics of how to block and tackle, and of what is acceptable and what isn’t. Coaches send strong messages. Do this. Don’t do that–it’s unacceptable. You’re not supposed to do the other thing … chuckle, chuckle. I can remember my 9th grade line coach shaping my ideas of what blocking is all about.
This is why I stress cultural matters. We have a culture that rewards bullet-like assaults on QBs and ball carriers. We see them on TV highlights. Coaches reward them. Fans love them.
Go watch dads coaching pee wee football teams. Watch the techniques, values, and habits they teach 9 year olds. They are laying the foundation not just for NFL practices, but for the fan base that supports it.
Tell you a story. I’m watching my son’s first rugby game. He’s a HS junior. OK, the ball is in play and a kid on our side makes a big hit. All the football-oriented dads–including me–roar, “Great hit.”
But, see, rugby isn’t football. The big hit doesn’t necessarily accomplish much in rugby because of the live ball. And while everybody is celebrating the big hit, the other team grabs the ball and moves it on. We dads, rugby neophytes, begin to learn that big hits are NOT central to rugby effectiveness. They play a role. But controlling the breakdown is vastly more important.
OK, football isn’t rugby. We aren’t going to stop blowing the ball dead as soon as the ball carrier goes to ground. But the point is that the rugby culture operates differently, teaches different techniques of contact.
The fact is, AMerican football culture doesn’t have to be the way it is. Players can be coached to be aggressive without assaulting heads or using them as battering rams. You can attack a QB’s arm and body. It’s arguably more effective, apart from the possibility of inflicting an injury. And, if we really wanted to, we could evolve a different American football culture with values and coached techniques that avoided concussions. There is no earthly reason we couldn’t do that.
Look, I got no “answers” either. I just know that what we have is the product of a nation-wide culture. Change will have to come from changes to that culture. And football people have to be open to an evolution that involves meaningful changes to what EVERYONE–not just the refs–finds acceptable. Ultimately, it has to be based in a major change to the grassroots supporting the game.
Which is my point throughout this discussion.
The traditional football model is deeply threatened by the revelations concerning brain injuries. (So is rugby, btw.) And it is NOT just pros making 2.6 Million a year that are affected. It involves our children, our young men. In the thousands.
Are “we” open to a responsible movement to evolve a variant of the game that is safer?
Or aren’t “we”?
- This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by rfl.
By virtue of the absurd ...
March 17, 2015 at 5:43 pm #20798rflParticipantI think a culture change would impact football in a positive way. I’d love to see it.
It’s a tough issue, no doubt.
Good discussion. Thanks for letting me rant a bit.
By virtue of the absurd ...
March 17, 2015 at 6:04 pm #20801wvParticipantLook, I got no “answers” either. I just know that what we have is the product of a nation-wide culture. Change will have to come from changes to that culture. And football people have to be open to an evolution that involves meaningful changes to what EVERYONE–not just the refs–finds acceptable. Ultimately, it has to be based in a major change to the grassroots supporting the game.
Which is my point throughout this discussion.
The traditional football model is deeply threatened by the revelations concerning brain injuries. (So is rugby, btw.) And it is NOT just pros making 2.6 Million a year that are affected. It involves our children, our young men. In the thousands.
Are “we” open to a responsible movement to evolve a variant of the game that is safer?
Or aren’t “we”?
Well, i hear ya. But as you know full well, ‘football culture’ wasn’t built in a day,
and it was built in a broader context (capitalism, individualism, social-darwinism, etc, etc, etc)
and to ‘change’ any of that…well…aint easy. Again, I’m not tellin ya anything
you dont already know.I’d like to change all kinds of things about ‘Amerikan Culture’ but…i done give up. Sigh.
Btw, that frontline vid on the concussion issue is awfully damning
toward Goodell. Goodell handled the concussion issue almost exactly
like he later, would handle the Ray Rice issue — first he basically
tried to sweep it under the rug — and when there was a great backlash — THEN,
he got religion. So, that kinda tells us that until there is a ‘culture change’ and until
a great backlash against old-school-football-culture blossoms,
nothing will change. Now, who was it that said that already…? 🙂w
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