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znModeratorIs Donald Trump Racist? Here’s What the Record Shows
Is Donald Trump Racist? Here’s What the Record Shows
The latest controversy is not a surprise to those who have followed his career.
Is Donald Trump racist? That question has hung over the presumptive Republican nominee for president as he has called Mexicans “rapists” and proposed a ban on Muslims entering the U.S. Lately, though, the question has taken on more urgency as Trump has repeatedly publicly attacked the judge who presides over Trump University class-action lawsuits. Calling the American-born Gonzalo Curiel a “Mexican,” he said Curiel was therefore biased against him, and he added to the flurry of objections by suggesting that a Muslim judge might also be incapable of hearing a lawsuit involving any Trump entity.In between these remarks he managed to offend by singling out a black man at one of his rallies, calling him “my African American” as if the fellow’s presence proved Trump was on the right side of the race issue.
For the long followers of Trump’s career, however, none of these incendiary remarks are especially surprising. Trump has a long record as a provocateur on matters of race and ethnicity.
It starts in 1973, when the United States Department of Justice went to court with a discrimination complaint against the Trump family business, which rented apartments across Brooklyn and Queens. Coming from the administration of Richard Nixon, who was hardly a civil rights agitator, the complaint was based on an investigation that found four different Trump employees confirming that applicants for leases were screened by race. One rental agent said Trump’s father had told him not to rent to blacks and that he actually wanted to reduce the number of African Americans in his buildings. Three doormen said they had been instructed to deflect blacks who came to Trump buildings to apply for apartments.
Though just 26 years old at the time, Donald Trump was already president of the Trump Organization. Rather than work with the government to bring the company into compliance with the law, as the New York apartment king Sam LeFrak had done, Trump retained one of the most notorious lawyers in the country, Roy Cohn, and commence an all-out legal war. Cohn, who had been Joe McCarthy’s chief inquisitor during the senator’s witch hunt for communists in the government, filed a $410 million lawsuit against the federal government and smeared the justice department attorneys with terms such as “storm troopers” and “Gestapo.” Trump complained in the press of “reverse discrimination” and alleged a “nationwide drive” to force landlords to “rent to welfare recipients.”
In the early 1970s, “African American” and “welfare” were used interchangeably and it was a well-established hallmark of dog-whistle politics, which allowed speakers to appeal to racist beliefs without using openly racist terms. More whites used welfare assistance than blacks, but welfare was regarded by some as a special benefit for minorities. In 1980 the coded language that matched welfare with undeserving minorities was revealed as Ronald Reagan spoke of “welfare queens” and “strapping young bucks.”
Trump’s countersuit in the fair housing case brought against his company was dismissed by a judge who considered it a “waste of paper.” The Trump organization eventually accommodated the feds, agreeing to a protocol intended to address the mistakes of the past.
For two years Trump would be required to supply weekly lists of vacancies to the Urban League’s Open Housing Center. When vacancies opened up in buildings where fewer than 10 percent of the tenants were black or Hispanic, the center would then have three days to submit applications from minority clients who wanted those apartments. If qualified, they were to get preference by agreeing to advertise vacancies in newspapers that served the black community. Trump was also required to advertise vacancies in press outlets serving minority communities.
Although he wound up complying with federal regulators on his rental policies, Trump had successfully staked out his position on race. He was on the side of those whites who resented civil rights laws intended to redress racism.
In 1989, he told Bryant Gumbel in an interview, “A well-educated black has a tremendous advantage over a well-educated white in terms of the job market…if I was starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated black, because I really do believe they have the actual advantage today. “ In fact, all the serious studies refuted that. However his statement did serve as a kind of shout-out to those who were ignorant about the racial dynamics in the U.S. economy.
Earlier in that same year Trump helped fan the flames of racial resentment when black and Latino teens were arrested in the infamous “Central Park jogger” attack. Trump alone chose to pay for $85,000 worth of full-page newspaper ads trumpeting, in capital letters, “BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY. BRING BACK OUR POLICE!” In the text Trump objected to then-Mayor Ed Koch’s plea for peace: Mayor Koch stated that “hate and rancor should be removed from our hearts. I do not think so.”
As Trump and other New Yorkers indulged in hate and rancor, the five accused were subjected to intense interrogation, most without their parents present, and gave false confessions. After years in prison, they were exonerated by DNA evidence. A book and a documentary film on the case showed how fear and race played substantial roles in the wrongful convictions but Trump, who fanned the flames, remained steadfast in his views. When the men received compensation for their imprisonment, Trump denounced the payments and smeared the men by saying, “These young men do not exactly have the past of angels.”
Next in the Trump record on race came a 1991 book by John O’Donnell, who had been president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino in Atlantic City. O’Donnell quoted Trump saying,“ Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys wearing yarmulkes… Those are the only kind of people I want counting my money. Nobody else…Besides that, I tell you something else. I think that’s guy’s lazy. And it’s probably not his fault because laziness is a trait in blacks.”
O’Donnell’s report was shocking, but Trump did not contest it at the time. In 1997 he was interviewed for Playboy by author Mark Bowden and he confirmed that the O’Donnell book was “probably true.”
Two years later, when he was seeking the reform party nomination for president, Trump changed his tune. “I’ve never said anything like that,” he told Tim Russert on Meet The Press.
The flip-flop that saw Trump affirm John O’Donnell’s reporting and then deny it, must be weighed against Trump’s clear tendency to see things in racial terms and then say what he thinks.
A telling moment arose during a 1993 Congressional committee hearing on gambling casino operated by Indian tribes. Trump, who considered the tribes competitors, offered a flourish of insensitivity during his testimony when he said, “They don’t look like Indians to me and they don’t look like Indians to Indians.”
Trump also said that tribal gaming operators were somehow tied to organized crime and a scandal was about to erupt. “In the 19 years I have been on this committee, I have never seen such irresponsible remarks,” Rep. George Miller (D., Calif.) shouted back to Trump. (Decades later, the industry is still waiting for the scandal that Trump predicted.)
“Least racist person on earth”
In his businesses, which are private entities not subject to affirmative action policies, Trump did not establish an impressive record for diversity in the executive suite. He has spoken often about providing employment to minority workers, but in 2015 The New Yorker quoted a former Trump casino worker who said that in the 1980s black employees were hidden from view when Trump and his wife Ivana were around.
No black or Hispanic executive has ever played a prominent public role in the Trump business organization. However the foundation run by Eric Trump includes one African American vice president, Lynn Patton, who is described on the foundation website as “senior assistant” to Donald Trump’s three older adult children.
Last year Trump defended himself against complaints about his attitudes by claiming that he’s the “least racist person on earth.” Except for Patton, the Trump team has not presented to the press the name of a single key executive who is either Hispanic or African American.
Trump did manage to avoid race-related controversies for more than a decade—between the mid-1990s and 2010. Then, in 2011, Trump seized upon the conspiracy theory that suggested that Barack Obama was not an American citizen. This so-called “birther” idea had been discredited as false, and it was widely seen as a racially charged insult and had been abandoned by other leading Republicans including Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama and Rep. Roy Blount of Missouri.
Trump took up the cause with relish. He also delivered innuendo about the president’s academic record and admission to Columbia University and Harvard Law School, implying that he was academically unworthy but benefitted from affirmative action.
Which brings us to the current presidential campaign and a candidate who is being criticized by leaders of his own party for the racial tone of his remarks on the stump and in press interviews. Trump said his statements about Judge Curiel have been “misconstrued.”
Whether he’s mocking Chinese businesspeople with broken English, contorting his body to make fun of a disabled reporter, or calling out to “my African American,” again and again, Trump has provoked anxiety and played to racial divisions. Earlier this week, Joe Scarborough, a lifelong Republican and host of the Morning Joe TV show called Trump’s remarks about Judge Curiel “completely racist.” He didn’t pass the same judgment on the man himself, but from what I see, the record would support him if he did.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83
In fact, discrimination against black people has been a pattern in his career
Workers at Trump’s casinos in Atlantic City, New Jersey, have accused him of racism over the years. The New Jersey Casino Control Commission fined the Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino $200,000 in 1992 because managers would remove African-American card dealers at the request of a certain big-spending gambler. A state appeals court upheld the fine.
The first-person account of at least one black Trump casino employee in Atlantic City suggests the racist practices were consistent with Trump’s personal behavior toward black workers.
“When Donald and Ivana came to the casino, the bosses would order all the black people off the floor,” Kip Brown, a former employee at Trump’s Castle, told the New Yorker for a September article. “It was the eighties, I was a teen-ager, but I remember it: they put us all in the back.”
Trump disparaged his black casino employees as “lazy” in vividly bigoted terms, according to a 1991 book by John O’Donnell, a former president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino.
“And isn’t it funny. I’ve got black accountants at Trump Castle and Trump Plaza. Black guys counting my money! I hate it,” O’Donnell recalled Trump saying. “The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day.”
“I think the guy is lazy,” Trump said of a black employee, according to O’Donnell. “And it’s probably not his fault because laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that. It’s not anything they can control.”
Trump has also faced charges of reneging on commitments to hire black people. In 1996, 20 African Americans in Indiana sued Trump for failing to honor a promise to hire mostly minority workers for a riverboat casino on Lake Michigan.
He refused to condemn the white supremacists who are campaigning for him
Three times in a row on Feb. 28, Trump sidestepped opportunities to renounce white nationalist and former KKK leader David Duke, who told his radio audience last week that voting for any candidate other than Trump is “really treason to your heritage.”
When asked by CNN’s Jake Tapper if he would condemn Duke and say he didn’t want a vote from him or any other white supremacists, Trump claimed that he didn’t know anything about white supremacists or about Duke himself. When Tapper pressed him twice more, Trump said he couldn’t condemn a group he hadn’t yet researched.
By Feb. 29, Trump was saying that in fact he does disavow Duke, and that the only reason he didn’t do so on CNN was because of a “lousy earpiece.” Video of the exchange, however, shows Trump responding quickly to Tapper’s questions with no apparent difficulty in hearing.
It’s preposterous to think that Trump doesn’t know about white supremacist groups or their sometimes violent support of him. Reports of neo-Nazi groups rallying around Trump go back as far as August.
His white supremacist fan club includes the Daily Stormer, a leading neo-Nazi news site; Richard Spencer, director of the National Policy Institute, which aims to promote the “heritage, identity, and future of European people”; Jared Taylor, editor of American Renaissance, a Virginia-based white nationalist magazine; Michael Hill, head of the League of the South, an Alabama-based white supremacist secessionist group; and Brad Griffin, a member of Hill’s League of the South and author of the popular white supremacist blog Hunter Wallace.
A leader of the Virginia KKK who is backing Trump told a local TV reporter earlier this month, “The reason a lot of Klan members like Donald Trump is because a lot of what he believes, we believe in.”
And most recently, the Trump campaign announced that one of its California primary delegates was William Johnson, chair of the white nationalist American Freedom Party. The Trump campaign subsequently said his inclusion was a mistake, and Johnson withdrew his name at their request.
znModeratorYou need to own it. You said communist is what you desire but not what was presented during the cold war. That is why I used it. Your memory is failing you
And that was just him.
BT is free to speak his mind but no one else espoused those views.
You seem to refer to all other posters as supporting those views.
znModeratorI’d just as soon my salt didn’t contain uranium.
It’s that kind of namby-pamby “I’m better than the next guy” snobbery that has made such a mess of the modern world.
Look, Bambi, you’ll eat your trace uranium with dinner along with the rest of us, and like it.
It’s the 21st century. Nobody whines about “uranium in their food” anymore.
…
znModeratorWow look at all the fear mongering in this thread!
Partisan spin. You go along with the policies we reject so you’re fine with them. But don’t try to convince anyone you have “a truth.” Everyone knows better, and everyone will see it as your spin. You’re fine with the policies and turn a blind eye to the racism, so naturally you don’t accept the criticism. But that will have no impact. We dislike the policies and the racism. That won’t change.
What you will never be able to do is to talk anyone here into accepting the policies. And that’s in the end all that will matter.
znModeratorI look at the same clinton-policies and i see
‘quick sand’, destruction of the poor, destruction of the biosphere…blah blah blah.And I think you’re wrong. In fact I think you’re misreading this whole thing, and it’s not simply a matter of “opinion.”
Certainly there’s nothing utopian or ideal there, with this round of dems.
But the destruction stuff? That’s Trump.
THe right-centrist Dems? It’s more like not doing enough. Or enough of the right things. That’s not destruction. That’s just the usual progress at a slow pace that measures the difference between my youth and the world my daughters live in.
Meanwhile if you are not white or male or straight or christian/or/mainstream, Trump’s policies will directly and materially make the world much, much worse for you. Direct impact stuff.
znModeratorFlorio: The same people who think Jared Goff is the answer now, thought Nick Foles was the answer a year ago.
Yeah Florio is fond of that kind of spin.
First, no one thought Foles was “the answer.” That’s bs.
Wrong. They thought Foles was the answer since they signed him to a big contract before he ever threw a regular season pass for the Rams.
This is semantics.
I was talking about how they measured his skill. They talked about him as being good enough to help a defensive team win.
If by “the answer” you mean a top franchise level qb, no they never indicated they thought that.
It was more like he was AN answer—to having or not having a qb.
And his modest extension made him by far, and it was by a LOT, the lowest paid starter in a second contract in the league.
The extension was a modest and smart calculated gamble. It was either pay him a modest extension then, and tie him up, but risk not seeing him come through…
…OR not pay him, see him do well, and then become a much more expensive FA.
Either way it’s just semantics but nothing they did indicated he was THE answer. And they quite simply did not talk about him the way they talk about Goff now. In fact when it comes to that the difference is stark.
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znModeratorAgain, how it appears to me.
No it;s not a cliff v. quicksand.
It’s a cliff v. ground that needs to be ploughed.
It’s not catastrophic both directions. It is only catastrophic one direction.
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Yeah, there’s where we disagree. I think its a “cliff vs quicksand”.No big deal to me ; We just disagree on it.
…and now, if you say ‘you dont know enuff about Trump’,
I will say ‘you dont know enuff about Hillary’….so lets not do that
w
vBut wv. I DO know about Hillary’s policies to the same extent I know Trump’s.
That’s why I see this the way I see it.
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znModeratorDo we really know what he would do or try to do?
Find out where he stands on policies.
If anything it’s more likely to be WORSE than what we know.
znModeratorHimalayan pink salt is really snake oil.
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/pass-the-salt-but-not-that-pink-himalayan-stuff/
For some reason when I try to connect to your link I get this:

I don’t know why that would happen. The link works for me. Perhaps it’s a setting on your computer that’s preventing you from accessing it? I would copy and paste the whole article but that’s too difficult with my cell phone (I’m at work). I’ll do it from my laptop when I get home.
Okay. Thanks for clarifying. It probably is me.
As for this—“I’ll do it from my laptop when I get home”—I did nothing to warrant that kind of hyperbolic personal gutter attack.

znModeratorHimalayan pink salt is really snake oil.
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/pass-the-salt-but-not-that-pink-himalayan-stuff/
For some reason when I try to connect to your link I get this:

znModeratorYou have no idea how many bright, very knowledgable people make the claim to know facts just facts not spin and they all differ from one another.
Um, well, why would you think I wouldn’t know about that?
Because I was talking about my personal experience with people I know on an individual basis, and, you couldn;t know about that.
That entire post was about how I am personally positioned in this.
I know several dedicated professional political scientists, and as it happens, the last couple of days, on the phone and through email and in facebook PMs, they have all been putting the screws on.
I get competing, different narratives, all claiming to be just the facts I need to account for, and I tell them that I am getting more than one narrative that claims to be the facts I need to account for, and so I cannot help but notice how different they are. And in terms of this conversation with you here, it’s how different they are from each other, and how different you are from each of them. And when I say that to any single individual each individually gets offended.
So my reminder is always this.
I can’t take the time to sort out and debate details because one crucial thing is missing and its absence makes all the difference. That crucial thing is—I don’t care. It’s hard to sort out the details when you’re not interested.
In light of that I draw back and say, this is my real priority, and it absorbs all my energy.
The focus is on the present difference in policies going forward. On the one hand, I will be resigned to more of the patient slow awareness that progress is slow…and that’s the way I have lived this (politics) my entire life. So it’s not new.
On the other hand, there’s clear, regressive, catastrophe where we (as I see it) will lose ground.
That’s my focus and that’s what I tell everyone who is pressuring me at the moment to ascent to their narrative of past facts about past elections.
Enough. It’s cacophony. In contrast the focus is simple and easy.
That’s all I am saying.
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znModeratorFlorio: The same people who think Jared Goff is the answer now, thought Nick Foles was the answer a year ago.
Yeah Florio is fond of that kind of spin.
First, no one thought Foles was “the answer.” That’s bs. Compare what they said about Foles to what they say about Goff.
Foles if he continued in his 2014 mode was a decent qb especially compared to the alternative, which was nothing. No one said or thought Foles was special. It’s no accident IMO that they drafted Gurley the same year they had just traded for Foles. They thought he could effectively manage an offense on a team that featured defense.
Goff, on the other hand, they clearly believe is worth trading up to the first pick in the draft.
Florio does that. He gets into superficial barbs. And he’s wrong at about an equal percentage to when he’s right. But then he doesn’t know. He covers 32 teams equally and therefore doesn’t know as much about the Rams as we dedicated and well-informed Rams fans.
That isn’t the same as guaranteeing Goff will be a star. But I DO know they talked about each them, Foles and Goff, completely differently when each first came aboard.
And no one btw foresaw the Foles meltdown. That’s because there actually isn’t anything in Foles’s play in 2014 that foreshadowed that.
Oh and I don’t think it was just play on the field. There’s behind closed doors stuff at work in this too, but we have only gotten small hints about that.
Either way the situations were different. With Foles it was, they had no shot at a qb if they unloaded an injured Bradford, other than Foles.
With Goff they spent months looking at the alternatives and asking who was worth the price. They made a choice in that case. Foles was never their “choice” that way. He was, as I said, better than the alternative—nothing—and you could see them working to make the best of that. With Goff, they are doing far more than just working to make the best of something. He’s their guy. It’s different.
..
znModeratorAnd my entire life I have never met anyone who possessed “the truth” on anything when it comes to political vision. I always just see better or worse theories, and clashing assumptions and premises. That’s just how I approach all of this. That’s me.
That’s fine. But if you actually do believe no one possesses the truth, then it’s sensible for you not to lead with the claim that someone else is “searching for a dubious truth,” when all I did was use numbers and draw a logical inference from those numbers and our electoral system.
It’s not “spin” to say what is self-evidently the case. Presidents don’t win because of one particular state. Again, just as that last-second field goal can’t possibly “win the game.” And within those states, they don’t win based on third-party votes which don’t even match those lost to Democratic voters who DIRECTLY voted for Bush. By definition, the voting process is cumulative within each state. By definition, the electoral process is cumulative within the nation as a whole.
Those ARE facts. No spin. Just facts.
BT, all that’s lost on me. I wouldn’t waste my time if I were you. You have no idea how many bright, very knowledgable people make the claim to know facts just facts not spin and they all differ from one another. Differ from one another and differ from you. And when I say this to any of them they all get offended and remind me that their narratives are just true. I tune it out.
I just don’t play the game.
I can give you a perfectly good analogy from football talk. Back in the St. Louis days I read several different guys who attended camp regularly. And there were always times over certain issues where inevitably they all differed on what the facts were. I would point this out and each individually would take offense because each individually KNEW the facts on that issue, even though they all differed. My take was, well to you you may “know the facts” but to me you are all different so I account for that.
Actually when it comes to sorting out the facts over football analysis I am more patient than I am with political history. And actually the different voices talking to me about political history are also different from football in this respect…I care about football. To me the political scientists are all arguing over a sport I don’t even care about. That is, whose narrative of political history is just the facts. They all claim it’s them. But to me it’s like hearing a drawn-out detailed story about baseball when I don’t care about baseball.
So with political history, what I do instead is look at all the highly informed and detailed people telling me opposite things, and I go…I don’t care.
My focus is on the present and what I believe are the choices in the present.
When it comes to the facts of political history, I have many camp reporters trying to get me to “hear” distinctly different, opposed narratives. Every single one of them is offended when I say this to them, too.
I listen to be polite, until I reach “enough” mode, but either way there always comes the time when I have to decide for myself, and the decision for myself is to set priorities and focus. The minutia is just guys arguing over a sport that doesn’t interest me.
znModeratorI am a pragmatist not a purist. Worse is worse. Once I see that clearly—that worse is worse—all the rest is rhetoric to me.
I get that. But some people truly believe that the status quo is bringing them down anyway. You drop off a cliff or you stand in quicksand. You die either way. Those are strong feelings. They are real feelings. And politics, if it’s about anything–it’s feelings. So why put forth a candidate who has a lot of baggage and people do not trust? Not everyone will put this aside as rhetoric. They BELIEVE this deeply.
All I’m saying is that the party did not HAVE to give it to her. They did so KNOWING it would be a challenge. That’s my problem. Why make it this hard?
But we agree on Trump. I agree with that. But I do feel if I lived in a safe state I would give them a middle finger and vote for Stein. I would have to believe Trump had no chance to win it.
Again, how it appears to me.
No it;s not a cliff v. quicksand.
It’s a cliff v. ground that needs to be ploughed.
It’s not catastrophic both directions. It is only catastrophic one direction.
I am not sure I remember how old you are, but, I came into political being during Vietnam (with a draft number), and the last years of civil rights. So in my era, you were politicized at 15 or 16. I had older high school friends who died in Vietnam.
And of course my entire life, like all of us, or most of us, I have lived with a leftist vision and so saw clearly the bad things around us.
And things are not where they need to be yet, but when I look at my daughters lives I see progress.
It’s one thing to think the progress is too slow. I get that. The only reason I never went crazy is because I have a way of patiently living with the slowness of progress.
But…that also means I am completely, and irredeemably, on watchguard mode against REGRESSION.
Trump is regression.
So I vote for another compromised centrist asshole. Done it my whole life. And slept fine afterwards. Meanwhile I note that real progress doesn’t come from the top anyway. To me EXPECTING THAT is no different from the uninformed sound-byte mired voters we all complain about. Progress doesn’t come from the top.
BUT regression CAN.
We have made gains, and they are considerable compared to when I was 17. But the entire time, the gains were never made by heroes elected to office.
But we can put ourselves in a position to dismantle what gains there have been.
Being impatient for an ideal to materialize overnight, to me, is not worth the risk of actually dismantling what gains have been made.
As I said that’s my focus, and to me, all the rest is spin.
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znModeratorthe shot about “trying to find a dubious truth.” Um, no. That’s not what I was trying to do. I was analyzing the facts on the ground, and just asked for your take on Nader’s role in 2000.
Beyond all of that? We don’t differ on the terrible effects of a Trump presidency. I despise everything he stands for.
I am telling you how things appear to ME. And I get dozens of people telling me “the facts on the ground,” and they’re all different, and all I ever hear in it is spin. For example I have friends who are career published professional political scientists who spin it differently, both from you and from each other, and I also see how all the people behind the different spins all sincerely believe what they gave me was “the truth.” I would even take the considerable time it took to sort it out, but, I can’t climb over this one wall—the wall being, I don’t care.
Of course we both despise Trump. The difference being, maybe, I would never risk, under any circumstances, him being elected. So the minutia and details and different historical spins I hear? I tune it all out.
That’s a fair warning to you about how I personally approach this issue.
And my entire life I have never met anyone who possessed “the truth” on anything when it comes to political vision. I always just see better or worse theories, and clashing assumptions and premises. That’s just how I approach all of this. That’s me.
znModeratorIf the Democrats put up such a crappy candidate that she can’t even beat Donald Trump, they don’t deserve to win.
See this is all rhetoric, which is why I always prefer focus.
You can easily turn that statement around. THat is the reason a Hillary would lose to someone as bad as Trump is because of people voting against the dems and then blaming the dems for it. I see no “truths” there just spin.
I get no consolation out of that particular spin. It just means there are a lot of people who are not calculating how much worse Trump will be.
I am a pragmatist not a purist. Worse is worse. Once I see that clearly—that worse is worse—all the rest is rhetoric to me.
I have never LOVED or APPROVED OF anyone I have ever voted for in my life, and I don’t care about that.
If Trump gets elected things will be so fucked. That’s all I know or care about. You may be able to wrangle around with some folks on this but I;m a lost cause when it comes to that. To me worse is worse and all the rest is just whistling past the graveyard.
Chances are I won’t be able to talk anyone into thing, so really I am not even trying, but on the other side, don’t expect me to patiently listen to anything that ignores “worse is really really genuinely worse.” That’s my focus. All the rest to ME, personally, is just words.
znModeratorI’ll blame them. Shrug. Not that anyone should or will care if I do.
If you are a progressive Trump is clearly worse than the Clinton. That is if you look at policies. And by worse, it’s significantly worse. Not 6 of one half a dozen of the other– worse.
That’s even at the level of economic policies.
And this is not “opinion.” An objective comparison of policies shows the difference.
And I might add, the ones who will be the most screwed over by Trump do not include anyone posting here.
I can’t remember your take on this, ZN. Did you blame Nader for Bush in 2000? I’m guessing you didn’t, but am not sure.
From my research, the folks who did just don’t have a case. First off, our electoral system doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t allow for one state to ever be definitive. It works on cumulative totals, obviously. Bush won 30 states. Gore won 20. Bush doesn’t get to the 271 without all of them. No one state can be definitive, just as a last-second field goal doesn’t actually “win” the game. All the things leading up to that count, too.
Second: even if we go by the premise that Florida was definitive — it can’t be — some 308,000 registered Dems voted directly for Bush. So Nader’s 24,000 votes from likely Dems is dwarfed by that, obviously. And, again, all 50 states have their variables as well. Counterfactuals can’t be cherry-picked and still have some chance at mattering.
Anyway . . . . if the choice is between Clinton and Trump, I hope Trump loses. But I’m not happy with those choices, at all.
I don’t care about the minutia of prior elections. To me that’s just trying to find a dubious “truth” to generalize with. I generally don’t get into that stuff and I fuzz out when people go there. To me it’s never illuminating. And so honestly, you can do and believe what you want about that. It’s just never persuasive to me.
My one thing is this. Trump is clearly worse, on every single level. That’s all that matters to me. It’s a “stand.”
To me, this is a kind of Weimar moment, to use an analogy. Yes the status quo needs change and reforming. I’m a lifelong leftist, so no need to preach to the choir. But…let’s not pretend that if the wrong guy wins, it won’t make any difference. It just so obviously will. On many levels but to use just one example…the supreme court. Fuck that up and we will all go to our graves before it’s ever fixed. All the rest to me is fine print.
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znModeratorI see an impasse on the “you have to have children/no you don’t” thing.
I just see it as a surreptitious way to be personal. W was wrong to introduce it. As a rule, you don’t contribute to good political debate by searching for personal reasons to see yourself as the voice of truth and others as automatically discountable. That move always just introduces friction
So an impasse is an impasse. It’s nothing but “no you can’t/yes I can” being repeated. Over a generalization no one could ever prove or disprove either way. Doesn’t matter what individuals BELIEVE, when you have a strong opinion impasse that’s what it is, can’t dress it up.
Short version: move on now? Thanks.
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znModeratorI’ll blame them. Shrug. Not that anyone should or will care if I do.
If you are a progressive Trump is clearly worse than the Clinton. That is if you look at policies. And by worse, it’s significantly worse. Not 6 of one half a dozen of the other– worse.
That’s even at the level of economic policies.
And this is not “opinion.” An objective comparison of policies shows the difference.
And I might add, the ones who will be the most screwed over by Trump do not include anyone posting here.
znModeratorShould Cowboys look into Nick Foles?
Todd Archer
ESPN Staff Writerhttp://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowboys/post/_/id/4752135/should-cowboys-look-into-nick-foles
OXNARD, Calif. — Nick Foles skipped the offseason workouts at the River Ridge practice fields with the Los Angeles Rams in the spring. Could he be on those fields this summer with the Dallas Cowboys?
The Rams released Foles on Wednesday, creating an opportunity for the Cowboys to potentially upgrade their backup quarterback spot behind Tony Romo.
Will they? Foles was on the Cowboys’ list of potential candidates earlier in the offseason, knowing the potential of his release. The Cowboys did not go after the higher-priced backups, such as Chase Daniel or Colt McCoy, when free agency began. They met with Matt Moore, but he opted to remain with the Miami Dolphins.
Nick Foles has more starting experience and more NFL success than current Cowboys backup QB Kellen Moore. L.G. Patterson/AP
They worked out all of the top quarterbacks entering the draft, and the Cowboys nearly traded back into the first round to take Paxton Lynch but opted against it. They ended up taking Dak Prescott in the fourth round, but he is not a candidate to be the backup just yet.As the Cowboys get on the plane for Oxnard, California, on Thursday, they do so with Kellen Moore as Romo’s backup. He played in three games last year, starting two, and had four touchdown passes and six interceptions.
Offensive coordinator Scott Linehan has been Moore’s biggest backer. They worked together with the Detroit Lions. Linehan was a big reason why Moore ended up joining the Cowboys’ practice squad after the final cuts last September.
The Cowboys love his smarts and intangibles, but he’s just 5-foot-10, 200 pounds and does not possess a big arm.
Foles is 6-5, 244. He was a third-round pick of the Philadelphia Eagles in 2012. He has a 19-16 career record with 53 touchdown passes and 27 interceptions. The trade to the Rams in 2015 did not work out, even though he received a two-year extension worth $24.5 million. He had a 4-7 record with seven touchdowns and 10 interceptions and lost his job. When the Rams moved up to the No. 1 spot in the draft, his time with the Rams was through. The Rams took Jared Goff No. 1 overall to be their quarterback.
In 2013, Foles had 27 touchdown passes and two interceptions and made the Pro Bowl. He beat the Cowboys in a Week 17 winner-take-all meeting with Romo out because of back surgery.
The Cowboys went 1-11 without Romo last year. Brandon Weeden, Matt Cassel and Moore were not part of the solution.
While they said the backup quarterback position was a priority for them in the offseason, they did nothing to truly address it.
After current head coach Jason Garrett became offensive coordinator in 2007, the Cowboys stocked their backup position mostly with veterans — Brad Johnson, Jon Kitna and Kyle Orton. The last two years, however, they went the relatively inexperienced route with Weeden, who was eventually released last season.
So far they are going with inexperience again in Moore, which many view as odd considering Romo’s recent injury history.
The Rams’ release of Foles, who would offer up more experience at a good age (he’s just 27) gives the Cowboys another opportunity to address the backup position.
znModeratorKeenum and Goff kept busy during the break between the end of OTAs in June and their arrival at camp, practicing with receivers and tight ends.
“We thought we’d try to work a little bit — not just sit around on the couch and eat Cheez-Its all summer,” Keenum said. “I think we made a jump.”
link: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/keenum-and-goff/#post-49616
This is of course what you want to hear.
Keenum made the jump from an Air Raid system to a pro style system before Goff and is a film junkie style self-maximizer, so is probably a good mentor for The Goff.
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znModerator"Goff has made significant improvements… he's making the NFL caliber throws."
–@wyche89 on Goff's progress pic.twitter.com/AD6Ky9ZOCZ
— NFL Total Access (@NFLTotalAccess) July 28, 2016
znModeratorDani Klupenger @daniklup
Keenum says he saw every receiver & every tight end in this offseason for throwing sessions. Says they took a step up in this off time.===
Here's what Rams GM Les Snead said about releasing QB Nick Foles on @nflnetwork Wednesday pic.twitter.com/1c6IvXysVz
— Joe Curley (@vcsjoecurley) July 28, 2016
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Kurt Warner, the only Rams QB to win the Super Bowl, made the argument for patience with Jared Goff, on @nflnetwork pic.twitter.com/Nj5VLvmKZl
— Joe Curley (@vcsjoecurley) July 28, 2016
===
Here's what Warner saw during his trip to Rams' OTAs in Oxnard and how it shaped his opinion: pic.twitter.com/zmQdDOecVi
— Joe Curley (@vcsjoecurley) July 28, 2016
===
Follow
Joe Curley @vcsjoecurley
hint that McDonald wasn’t listed in starting lineup because he has to earn place back after missing OTAs.July 28, 2016 at 11:06 pm in reply to: Case Keenum and other Rams veterans report to training camp #49609
znModeratorArriving for camp atop Rams’ depth chart, Case Keenum not looking over shoulder
Steve Dilbeck
IRVINE, Calif. — He is the Los Angeles Rams’ No. 1 quarterback. Proclaimed right there on the team’s depth chart, in ink and everything.
But Case Keenum understands his situation as well as anyone, and everyone understands it clearly: The Rams made a dramatic swap of draft picks in order to select Cal quarterback Jared Goff in April as the No. 1 overall pick in the 2016 NFL draft.
The next day, Rams coach Jeff Fisher flat-out called Goff their franchise quarterback.
But as Rams veterans began checking in Thursday at training camp, Keenum remained atop the depth chart. It’s the first time in his career he’s gone into camp listed at No. 1.
“Never done that before,” Keenum said. “A lot of firsts. The first time cameras have followed me into my dorm when I’m checking in at training camp.”
The attention is a mix of Keenum being the Rams’ current starting quarterback, the team’s historic move back to Los Angeles, and HBO selecting the team for its “Hard Knocks” documentary series.
Keenum’s hold on the starting spot is more tenuous than teenage confidence. No one is certain when Goff will become the starter, only that given everything the Rams gave up to get him, at some point it will happen.
“There’s a lot of scenarios,” Keenum said. “That’s kind of training camp. It’s a time to compete. Time to compete against your position group, time to compete against the defense.”
Through early workouts, Keenum has already developed a relationship with Goff, if not an admiration.
“He’s a great guy,” he said. “I really like Jared. He’s a great football player, but a great person too. I’m excited to see what he brings to the team, to the quarterback room.
“He’s very, very talented. He came in that way. I’m excited to see where he’s going to grow and what he’s going to be able to accomplish. He’s going to play for a long time.”
In the interim comes the NFL’s summer grind. Drills and reps and near-daily practice. And daily competition, whether it’s to start the season opener or more.
Keenum sounds convinced that competition with Goff will not sour their relationship.
“I don’t think so,” the 28-year-old said. “When it’s good people, it really makes it a lot easier. And he’s good people. We’re trying to make each other better. The way I’ve always seen it, I don’t want him to do bad. I want him to do good. When I’m competing against somebody, I want my best to be better than his.
“Anytime anybody is doing well, it’s exciting for our team. It makes our team better. He’s doing well, it pushes me. I’m doing well, it pushes him. That’s what competition is about. Making each other better and, in turn, making the team better.”
Keenum was an undrafted 6-foot-1 quarterback out of the University of Houston who signed as a free agent with the Houston Texans in 2012. He started eight games the next season and lost them all.
He was traded to the Rams prior to last season to back up quarterback Nick Foles. When Foles struggled, Keenum took over. He went 3-2 as a starter, completed 60.8 percent of his passes, and threw four touchdowns to one interception. At the team’s season-ending press conference, Fisher said Keenum would enter the offseason as the team’s No. 1 quarterback.
Which is where he remains today, even if his name at the top of the depth chart should be written in careful pencil.
Foles, well-aware of the Rams’ quarterback landscape, asked for his release and was given it Wednesday.
“A great player and an even better person,” Keenum said of Foles. “I wish him nothing but the best. I know whatever team he lands with is going to land a really good quarterback and a great teammate. I know it’s been kind of a weird situation for him. But it’s a business and you have to handle a lot of that stuff before you go play.”
Just as Keenum is trying to handle it now.
znModeratorAndy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 1m1 minute ago
#Rams notes: really eager to see how Ogletree does at MLB. Freak athlete now playing position that demands more awareness and patience.
my Note my biggest concern has been his inability to ever take on blockers he could run around blockers playing outside but agree how Ogltetree does at mlb is maybe the most fascinating thing to watch in preseason /b]Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 1m1 minute ago
#Rams notes: loss of McLeod created enormous hole at FS. Will that give Gregg Williams pause on some of his blitz calls?Rams notes: Trumaine Johnson one of best route squatters and jumpers in NFL. Smart to choose him over J. Jenkins.
note agree outstanding zone cb. Jenkins did the heavy lifting man stuff for Williams…Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 1m1 minute ago
#Rams notes: T.J. McDonald coming off somewhat quiet season. Still has foundation to be a top tier SS.note 1 ff and 12 pd in 3 years and 62nd best safety last year per pff…not sure about his foundations
Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 11s11 seconds ago
#Rams notes: Barron a much better attacker than reactor. Why a better LB than S, and why he’s better under G. Williams than Lovie.Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 13s14 seconds ago
#Rams notes: Barron a key, KEY piece in a scheme like Gregg Williams. Versatile blitzer, aggressive chase run defender and can cover TE’s.Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 5m5 minutes ago
#Rams notes: Starting nose shade on Unsung Hero Team is Michael Brockers. Great mechanics, burst and through-the-whistle strength.Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 36s36 seconds ago
#Rams notes: Critical that Robert Quinn stay healthy. Swiftest, most flexible 4-3 DE in league. Different D when he’s out.Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 10m10 minutes ago
#Rams notes: Mild concern with Donald: tendency to go under blocks on running downs. That’s a risky way to play.Rams notes: Aaron Donald most explosive 3-tech in NFL. Whoever is 2nd is not even in his hemisphere.
#Rams notes: with putrid receiving options, Rams passing game reliant on play-action and winning through leverage-creating formations.
#Rams notes: This offense doesn’t have 1 WR who scares teams. Austin small, a gadget guy. Britt stiff, has limited route tree.
Rams notes: Gurley also very good at setting up blocks (advantage of body control) and finishing runs (advantage of size).
#Rams notes: Gurley chance to become NFL’s best RB. Unbelievably smooth, nuanced change-of-direction ability.
Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 1h1 hour ago
#Rams notes: Coaching staff likes TE Kendricks more than you’d guess. Good strong lower body as a blocker.Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 3h3 hours ago
Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 1h1 hour ago
Andy Benoit Retweeted Jaya T
Rams a much more limited passing game style (to account for iffy protection), so sack numbers skewed.
@Andy_Benoit Is the pass protection that bad? Statistically had the lowest sacks per dropback in the league, though that stat surprised me.note Rams were 16th in pressures allowed last year running that limited passing game style
Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 1h1 hour ago
#Rams notes: C Barnes also a big concern along OL. Really struggles in run game against quality nose shade tackles.Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 2h2 hours ago
#Rams notes: if Robinson can learn to play to his size, he’ll have a chance. Big decisive yr for him.Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 2h2 hours ago
#Rams notes: the one bust LT that nobody talks about is Greg Robinson. Very bad mechanics and lower body in pass pro.
10 retweets 9 likesAndy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 2h2 hours ago
#Rams notes: OL is a major, major concern – especially with rookie QB. Youth did not improve last yr, and athletic limitations in spots.ndy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 2h2 hours ago
#Rams notes: Goff will have a lot to learn in presnap phase. Rams run a simple run-based offense though.Andy Benoit @Andy_Benoit 2h2 hours ago
#Rams must start Goff. No point in hiding Keenum in the scheme for a yr. Goff survived beating as frosh at Cal. Let him learn under fire.
znModeratorStatement from @RamsNFL head coach Jeff Fisher on the release of QB Nick Foles. pic.twitter.com/7CPtivgmG1
— Myles Simmons (@MylesASimmons) July 27, 2016
July 28, 2016 at 5:23 pm in reply to: Reich vs. Hedges debate as to who should Bernie voters support now, + Chomsky #49583
znModeratorLOL.
You already posted it, huh? I don’t know how I missed it. Not like we’re producing 18 topics a day.
Good discussion, huh?
Yes, good discussion. Hedges got a little impassioned sputtery for my taste, but then, there’s nothing rare about that.
People double post a lot. Which is no big deal…usually when that happens I delete my original, that is if mine is the original, and let the new one stand (which is why people don’t realize it happens a lot). But this board will be picking up steam and so I thought, maybe do it this way once or twice as a kind of gentle reminder.

znModeratorThey even cheered on those rare occasions when the Rams did something right.
You won’t have that problem in Foxboro.
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znModeratoroff the net from OntarioRam
Tavon Austin might not be anything more than a mediocre pure wide-out for a variety of reasons – small catch radius, average route running, average hands. But Austin only being a mediocre conventional WR is fine with me because he is an extremely valuable *football player*.
For starters, he is one of the best punt returners in the game. If not the best. Perhaps nobody in the NFL is kicked away from as much as Tavon Austin. That’s pretty telling. Seattle tried kicking to Austin in week 1 this past season. He promptly returned it for a highlight reel TD. That was the end of teams kicking to Austin in 2015-16. The rare times he does get the ball on punt returns, the defensive coverage is often strong due to the hang time punters put on it vs. Austin. But Tavon still routinely makes something out of nothing. Or, when he gets a strong block or two, takes it to the house or damn near it.
On offense, he’s a threat to score every time he touches the ball. He had 9 offensive touchdowns last year on how many snaps? His TD numberss were comparable to Gurley’s despite a fraction of the touches.
Even though Austin is small in stature, he’s also a good blocker, which is not a quality to be overlooked in an offensive skill player. Especially in a power offence like ours (there is a reason Brian Quick might yet make this team again!). Austin’s speed allows him to get to his man in the blink of an eye. And he is not at all shy about using every ounce of his undersized body. Just ask Pierre Desir, Tavon absolutely trucked him last year to spring Gurley vs Cleveland.
His mere presence keeps defenses honest. Plus, more unique to the Rams offense, he is the perfect compliment to Gurley. The misdirection the Rams run with Austin and Gurley is a mutually beneficial set up, but neither player will see that value they contribute reflected in their individual stats. At least not directly…
Despite his average receiving ability – again, small catch radius etc – he can still be a deadly weapon as a WR if used correctly and a QB is accurate enough to hit him in stride or fit the ball in tight windows (see: Foles to Austin against Arizona). Goff and his accuracy has the potential to see Austin’s game catapult.
Austin is also a huge threat as a RB.
And is there any player better in open space? There was a stat published about teams breaking tackles / making players miss recently where the Rams were near the very top of the league. Austin, unsurprisingly, was leading that charge (along with Benny Cunningham).
Some people will see Tavon listed as a WR, see that he isn’t overly impressive as a conventional WR, and then get frustrated. People have to stop thinking of Austin in pure wide-out terms. He’s listed as a WR only because you have to list him as *something*…. in reality he is a gadget player that defies being boxed in by any one positional label. Some people say that like it’s a bad thing. I think it’s a huge compliment. Austin is a true swiss army knife – he can do it all.
znModeratorGeorge Will thinks Trump won’t release his records because they will show financial ties with Russia. Others speculate that Trump is hiding tax fraud.
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Honore de Balzac (1799-1850): “Behind every great fortune is a crime.”w
vMe: that’s a metaphor Mr. Balzac. Not an applicable excuse in this case.
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Well, my own interpretation of Balzac-Ram’s comment is different.
I dont think he was ‘excusing’ anything — i think he was ‘accusing’.w
vYes and I don’t think it applies.
Using that quotation in this context amounts to saying that yeah Trump has done bad shit but what rich people haven’t.
No, he’s worse.
His worseness, IMO, cannot be excused or written off or diminished or rationalized or downplayed.
To me people doing that come in 2 types. (1) Trump advocates, and (2) people who don’t realize yet HOW bad he is.
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