Billy_T wrote:

If I remember correctly, WV, you can’t stand Obama on a personal level, either. Me? I actually do like the guy and his family. Can’t stand his policies. But I can separate that from how I see him on that personal level.

The Clintons? It’s both. Can’t stand them on a personal or a policy level. I’m not sure how many others on the left share my views in that way.

———————
Well, i cant even separate the ‘personal’ from the ‘political’ when it comes
to politicians-with-Power. I look at Obama and I just see drones murdering
people. I cant get past that, and i dont want to get past it.

w
v

Clintons Shutter Global Initiative as Donations Dry Up
16 January 2017

The Clinton Global Initiative (CGI) filed a WARN — Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification — with New York State’s Department of Labor on Thursday, announcing that, effective April 15, 2017, it would be closing its doors and laying off 22 employees. The CGI’s stated reason: “Discontinuation of the Clinton Global Initiative.”

Following the election, foreign governments that had been regular donors began cutting their contributions to the Clinton Foundation, some severely. For example, news.com.au noted that the Australian government “has not renewed any of its partnerships with the scandal-plagued Clinton Foundation, effectively ending 10 years of taxpayer-funded contributions worth more than $88 million.” The government of Norway, which had been contributing as much as $20 million a year to the foundation, cut its contribution by nearly 90 percent.

As noted by the New York Observer, these cuts indicate that “the organization’s clout was predicated on donor access to the Clintons, rather than its philanthropic work.”
..
link:http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/25146-clintons-shutter-global-initiative-as-donations-dry-up

Billy_T wrote:

That’s not what I’m seeing from writers like Pilger.

Seems like Trump has made everyone lose their shit.

——————

Hillary made them crazy. Thats all i got. Her arrogance, smugness, treatment of Bernie, lying, cheating, warmongering — made a lot of folks ‘lose their shit’ and begin to see Trump as something better.

If its not that, i dunno what it is. I really dont. Trumps a monster. And the thing a lot of folks gloss over is — it aint just trump — its Trump Plus a rightwing Congress and a soon to be Rightwing S.Court.

…I’m waiting for an article titled “They are ALLLL fucking mass-murdering-Monsters.”

w
v

link:https://off-guardian.org/2017/01/15/the-beatification-of-barack-obama/

…

….Obama has carried out 10x more drone strikes than Bush ever did. Every Tuesday a military aide presents Obama with a “kill list”, and the “decent, gracious” Obama picks a few names off a list…and kills them. And their families. And their neighbours. These illegal acts of state-sanctioned murder have killed hundreds of civilians in 5 different countries in 2016 alone. The only reason that number isn’t higher, is that the Obama administration re-classified all males over 18 as combatants, regardless of occupation.

After declaring he wanted to build a “nuclear free world”, Obama committed to spending $1 TRILLION dollars on rebuilding America’s nuclear weapons.

Under Obama, the NSA et al. were able to spy on, essentially, the whole world. When this was revealed, not a single intelligence officer or government official was prosecuted. Instead…

Obama’s administration declared a “war on whistleblowers”, enacting new laws and initiating what they call the “Insider Threat Program”. Manning was prosecuted, Snowden sent into exile and Assange was set-up, discredited and (they hoped) extradited. It has never been more dangerous to be a government whistle-blower, than under Barack Obama

In terms of foreign policy, despite his press-created and non-sensical reputation as a non-interventionist, American Special Forces are currently operating in over 70% of the world’s 195 countries. The great lie is that, where Bush was a warmonger, Obama has sought to avoid conflict. The truth is that Obama, in the grand tradition of the CIA and American Imperial power, has simply turned all America’s wars into covert wars.

Before Obama came into office, Libya was the richest and most developed nation in Africa. It is now a hell-hole. Destroyed by war, hollowed-out by corruption. The “liberal” press allow him to agonise over this as his “greatest mistake”, and then gently pardon him for his good intentions. The truth is that Libya was not a mistake, or a misjudgment, or an unforeseen consequence. Libya is exactly what America wanted it to become. A failed state where everything is for sale, a base to pour illegal CIA weapons south into Africa and east into the ME. When war is your economy, chaos is good for business. When secrecy is your weapon, anarchy is ammunition. Libya went according to plan. A brutal plan that killed 100,000s and destroyed the lives of millions more. Libya, like Iraq, is a neocon success story. Syria on the other hand…

Syria, probably the word that will follow Obama out of office as “Iraq” did his predecessor, is a total failure. Both of stated intent and covert goals. Where the press will mourn Obama’s “indecisive nature” and wish he’d “used his big stick”, the real story is one of evil incompetence, so great that it would be almost comical…if it hadn’t destroyed an ancient seat of civilisation and killed 100,000s of people. Syria (along with Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Iran and Sudan) was on the list of the 7 countries America intended to destroy, famously “leaked” by General Wesley Clark. After the fall of Libya, Syria was (essentially) surrounded by American military on all sides. Iraq, Israel, Turkey and America operating out of Libya could pour “freedom fighters” into Syria to bring down “the regime”. When that didn’t work they deployed the trusty “WMD” method, to demand “humanitarian intervention”…the Russians saw that off. Then “ISIS” was created by the CIA, as al-Qaida were before them, and their manufactured barbarism was used as a pretext for invasion. The Russians, again, saw to it that this would not happen.
Perhaps in the hope of distracting Russia from the ME, or perhaps merely as a short-sighted punitive measure, the Obama’s administration next foreign policy target was Ukraine. Victoria Nuland’s own voice proves how much that “color revolution” was an American creation. Ukraine is broke, even more broke than it was, its people starve and freeze through the winter. The new “democratic government” has shelled 10,000 people to death in the East of the country….using American weapons.
In Yemen, the poorest country in the ME is being bombed to shreds by the richest….again, using American (and British) weapons. Obama’s “defense of democracy” doesn’t extend to criticising, or even discussing, the abhorrent Human Rights record of America’s Saudi Arabian allies, and in an act of brazen hypocrisy, even supported their chairing of the Human Rights Council of the UN.

Billy_T wrote:

WV, I know you’re not saying this, but some of the articles decrying the focus on Russia seem to be. That seems to be their main point…

=============
Well I’ve seen lots of articles that make Russia out to be Saints and Saviors,
and Hillary out to be a Demon, and Trump out to be a Savior. That stuff is out there. And of course there is a lot of stuff out there saying the USA is glorious and Russia is evil.

I dont see nearly enough stuff saying the US is a gangster state and so is Russia. Ah well.

w
v

zn wrote:

i have a
more broad idea in mind than just ‘domestic econ policy’.

Again, it’s economic policy.

Not domestic per se.

And, different foreign policies can be attached to neoliberal economics.

One does not dictate the other in any kind of necessary way. And you choosing to use the word a certain way is just you. But it is leading to a lot of analytic confusion.

If you want to look at the combination of foreign policy and neoliberal economics, it’s a case of one from menu A, then the only thing (neoliberal) on menu B.

So it could be A1 and B, or A2 and B, or A3 and B, and so on.

..

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And i would say ‘economic policy’ is a very stretchy concept, that necessarily implicates the CIA and the NSA and Drones and Weapons and all the rest.

Otherwise ‘economic policy’ is just academic writings in a book.

In the real world ‘economic policy’ ie, ‘neoliberalism’ includes a lot of the mechanisms of enforcement and power.

WE are now at the point of repeating ourselves over a ‘semantic’ issue. So you can have the last word if you want it.

w
v

zn wrote:

zn wrote:

You can be a non-fascist neo-liberal and a fascist neo-liberal. Fascist and neo-liberal are not opposable terms.

from the wiki

Neoliberalism

Neoliberalism (neo-liberalism) refers primarily to the 20th century resurgence of 19th century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic free market liberalization. These include extensive economic policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy. The implementation of neoliberal policies and the acceptance of neoliberal economic theories in the 1970s are seen by some academics as the root of the financial crisis of 2007–08. Currently, neoliberalism is most commonly used to refer to market-oriented reform policies such as eliminating price controls, deregulating capital markets, lowering trade barriers, and reducing state influence on the economy, especially through privatization and austerity.

The ONLY part of any of that Trump opposes, at least superficially, is the trade stuff. But then it’s doubtful that’s even true…he is not consistent or coherent when it comes to that. The rest? He’s another lockstep pro-corporate, pro-market, liberalization soldier. Far more so than any of his predecessors.

==========
And nothing in that definition restricts it to ‘domestic’ policies. Which means it can be GLOBAL econ policy. Which means it implicates the Pentagon/CIA/NSA, world-bank, IMF, ‘enforcement’ policies.

Which means Neoliberalism implicates a lot more than pure ‘econ’ policy.

w
v

Yes, agreed, Zooey. Sigh.

…and yet….there was the Bernie phenomenon. A small flickering light in the darkness, perhaps.

Its all we got.

w
v
“So live your life so the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their views, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or sign of salute when meeting or passing a stranger if in a lonely place. Show respect to all people, but grovel to none. When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the light, for your life and strength. Give thanks for your food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies in yourself. Touch not the poisonous firewater that makes wise ones turn to fools and robs them of their visions. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way.
Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.

Tecumseh