demands for ideological purity only come if you aren’t at risk

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  • #49730
    zn
    Moderator

    #BERNIEORBUST PROVES ONE THING — WHITE LIBERALS FEEL ENTITLED TO IDEOLOGICAL PURITY
    The mostly white Bernie supporters ‘protesting’ the DNC and turning on their idol shows the privilege they enjoy, especially while minorities are targeted this election.

    link: http://contemptor.com/2016/07/25/bernieorbust-proves-one-thing-white-liberals-feel-entitled-to-ideological-purity/

    Justin Baragona July 25, 2016

    While there was a hope that Bernie Sanders’ endorsement of Hillary Clinton earlier this month and his promise to help her defeat Donald Trump was going to quell any tension at this week’s Democratic National Convention, that all came crashing down over the weekend with the release of leaked DNC emails. In what is looking more and more like a coordinated effort by Russia to negatively impact the Democrats’ chances in November, Bernie supporters found new outrage over the critical comments outgoing DNC head Debbie Wasserman Schultz had for Sanders’ campaign.

    Therefore, we’ve been treated to marches and ‘protests’ by #BernieOrBust dead-enders the past couple of days, culminating with them booing — yes, booing — Bernie Sanders when he said told them in a Monday afternoon speech that they need to unite and vote for Hillary to defeat Trump. The Vermont Senator had to interrupt them and tell that that “this is the real world we live in” when they chanted “We want Bernie!” in response to his call for a Democratic win this fall.

    Of course, the WikiLeaks thing is just being used as an excuse for the #StillSanders folks to demand Bernie be coronated at the convention despite his falling 4 million votes and hundreds of pledged delegates short in the primary. These voters, who are generally under 40 and a vast majority of whom are white, were coming to Philly no matter what. And their plan was to disrupt the convention, make it clear that they think the system is rigged, and that Hillary Clinton stole the primary from the right heir.

    But what are they really, truly fighting for? Over the past few months, Hillary has embraced many of Bernie’s policy positions. She’s turned her back on the Trans-Pacific Partnership. She’s pushed forth a debt-free college education plan and moved left on healthcare, calling for a public option and a reduction in age to receive Medicare. She wants to increase the minimum wage to at least $12 an hour.

    Beyond that, Bernie scored major concessions with the party’s platform, getting pretty much everything he wanted included. Sure, there were some minor quibbles, but the Democratic platform is by far the most progressive one the party has run on. There’s even going to be further discussions about changing the primaries and perhaps altering the superdelegate system.

    But, that is apparently not enough. While a racist demagogue who is cozying up with a Russian autocrat and outwardly saying he will change this country to a fascist state is leading in the polls, these special snowflakes are throwing temper tantrums in Philadelphia’s streets because their guy didn’t win. And why didn’t he win? Because he never made inroads with black voters, leading to large losses in the South and Mid-Atlantic states.

    And this is the point I am getting to. White liberals are revealing their privilege to the world for all to see right now. Their demands for ideological purity, specific causes to be placed front and center and only perfectly liberal candidates are the demands one can only make if they aren’t placed at risk during an election. The fact is, black, Hispanic, Muslim and LGBT voters don’t have the luxury of holding out for the perfect like these progressives do.

    For minorities, especially those who have historically been marginalized and are demonized by the far-right to rally conservative votes, civil rights trump everything else. Sure, many would probably love to push a candidate further on certain issues, but when it comes down to it, they will vote for the Democrat because they need to protect the civil rights gains of the past several decades.

    This is something we’ve seen for a while, too. In 2010, progressives bitched that President Obama was just too centrist and trying to appease Republicans, spending all of his time trying to pass healthcare reform. Therefore, Democrats lost the House — which they had just gained back in 2006 — during the Tea Party takeover. In 2014, upset at the number of moderate incumbents and candidates on the slate, they sat out again, allowing the GOP to retake the Senate and gain even more seats in the House. All the while, Republicans made more and more gains in state and local legislatures and executive branches.

    And it is this sort of all-or-nothing, my way or the highway, I’ll take my ball and go home approach that makes it impossible for the Democratic Party to make sustainable gains. There is a certain core group of voters who feel that unless the United States immediately embraces someone who will make the country one large Portlandia, then they’ll stick it to the party, by either not showing up or making it clear that they’re going third-party.

    The thing is, this ain’t you supporting your favorite indy band, pointing out how much you can’t stand mainstream music. This isn’t you only going to the art house to see Jim Jarmusch films. This is the future of this country, and how non-white, non-heterosexual people will be treated going forward. If you declare yourself as being fully for social justice, then you have no choice but to vote Hillary in November. Otherwise, you ain’t nuthin’ but a Trumpkin.

    #49732
    wv
    Participant

    Obviously, not written by a Bernie supporter.

    I’m tempted to do a point by point bashing of that article,
    but I’m just done with the Bernie vs Hillary vs Jill issue.
    It just aint fun anymore, for me.

    w
    v

    #49734
    zn
    Moderator

    Obviously, not written by a Bernie supporter.

    I’m tempted to do a point by point bashing of that article,
    but I’m just done with the Bernie vs Hillary vs Jill issue.
    It just aint fun anymore, for me.

    w
    v

    Yeah it was an editorial of a type and tone I generally just scoff at. But still it’s a time for all sorts of views.

    But why ain’t The Debate fun no more. Honestly asking out of curiosity.

    #49736
    wv
    Participant

    Obviously, not written by a Bernie supporter.

    I’m tempted to do a point by point bashing of that article,
    but I’m just done with the Bernie vs Hillary vs Jill issue.
    It just aint fun anymore, for me.

    w
    v

    Yeah it was an editorial of a type and tone I generally just scoff at. But still it’s a time for all sorts of views.

    But why ain’t The Debate fun no more. Honestly asking out of curiosity.

    ——————–

    Too much heat, not enough humor,
    for me.

    w
    v

    #49737
    zn
    Moderator

    Obviously, not written by a Bernie supporter.

    I’m tempted to do a point by point bashing of that article,
    but I’m just done with the Bernie vs Hillary vs Jill issue.
    It just aint fun anymore, for me.

    w
    v

    Yeah it was an editorial of a type and tone I generally just scoff at. But still it’s a time for all sorts of views.

    But why ain’t The Debate fun no more. Honestly asking out of curiosity.

    ——————–

    Too much heat, not enough humor,
    for me.

    w
    v

    Well. Let’s begin again. Honestly. So this time, I will enter the debate as a monkish devotee of JFK’s go to the moon speech.

    So. How come you don’t want to go to the moon. Of course it will be hard, that’s why we’re doing it.

    #49739
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Not sure I can add humor to the debate here, either, but I will say I’ve grown quite tired of the “ideological purity” strawman, along with “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”

    I run into these memes on another forum dominated, by centrist Dems, and I try to say to them, No one is asking for “ideological purity”. We’re just asking for “much better.” No one is asking for “the perfect.” We’re just asking for “much better.” Oh, and given that we haven’t seen “the good” as an option in things like the ACA or Dodd-Frank, “the perfect” isn’t in danger of forcing “the good” out in the first place.

    Cornel West (also) pushed back against the “purity” strawman on my TV this morning, saying that it (purity) wasn’t human, and he and others like him focus on the human.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Billy_T.
    #49741
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Also: I reject the frame that it’s supposedly easy for people of privilege to hold fast to their principles, and they need to let go of that because so many people are hurting. I think it’s easy for people of privilege to keep saying we need to “go slow” and “be reasonable” and endlessly “compromise” with the enemy. I think it’s easy for people of privilege to kick back in their high, leather chairs, stroke their chins, and ponder how they’re going to make the sausage so that politicians can get their money from Big Donors and not lose all of their voters. As in, focus endlessly on an endless process of kicking the can down the road while people actually ARE suffering.

    People in serious poverty, being oppressed daily, running from bombs and bullets daily — they can’t afford to wait for years and years, or decades and decades, while the various Neros in DC play the fiddle and Rome burns. People need help now. Not when it’s safe for the Dems to come out of the bunker. Not when it’s safe for the GOP to repudiate previous presidents. Now.

    #49747
    zn
    Moderator

    Also: I reject the frame that it’s supposedly easy for people of privilege to hold fast to their principles,

    Oh as it happens I believe that one bit completely.

    I see it on an everyday basis, too.

    And of course privilege here means “white privilege.”

    You look long and hard and close enough at white privilege, you can see—to quote Noah Cross from Chinatown—it’s “capable of ANYTHING.”

    #49748
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Also: I reject the frame that it’s supposedly easy for people of privilege to hold fast to their principles,

    Oh as it happens I believe that one bit completely.

    I see it on an everyday basis, too.

    And of course privilege here means “white privilege.”

    You look long and hard and close enough at white privilege, you can see—to quote Noah Cross from Chinatown—it’s “capable of ANYTHING.”

    Well, perhaps a better way of putting this: It’s not at all easier for those who seek rapid change than the same privileged class who insist we must take baby steps, “or nothing ever gets done!!”

    As in, people of privilege have it easier when it comes to either option, or any option, so it’s pretty ridiculous to go all “holier than thou” against the people who talk about the tremendous urgency involved. I just reject that the case is better for people of privilege who insist on the “sensible” and “reasonable” route, which takes decades, if it ever happens at all. And our history has been — at least since the 1970s — of one step forward, two or more steps back. So even on their own grounds, it’s not working.

    #49749
    zn
    Moderator

    Also: I reject the frame that it’s supposedly easy for people of privilege to hold fast to their principles,

    Oh as it happens I believe that one bit completely.

    I see it on an everyday basis, too.

    And of course privilege here means “white privilege.”

    You look long and hard and close enough at white privilege, you can see—to quote Noah Cross from Chinatown—it’s “capable of ANYTHING.”

    Well, perhaps a better way of putting this: It’s not at all easier for those who seek rapid change than the same privileged class who insist we must take baby steps, “or nothing ever gets done!!”

    As in, people of privilege have it easier when it comes to either option, or any option, so it’s pretty ridiculous to go all “holier than thou” against the people who talk about the tremendous urgency involved. I just reject that the case is better for people of privilege who insist on the “sensible” and “reasonable” route, which takes decades, if it ever happens at all. And our history has been — at least since the 1970s — of one step forward, two or more steps back. So even on their own grounds, it’s not working.

    But the point is, for a lot of us encased in white privilege, the CONSEQUENCES of certain kinds of things is far more immediate and unavoidable. White privilege means race not class and it translates out into being, mostly, straight white male privilege. If we can’t see how others who are outside of that might be more anxious about consequences, then, really, we’re not seeing anything. I have friends—for example, non-white lesbians I know at work—who know full well that they will lose things under Trump. It won’t be status quo for them. They can’t afford the luxury of unpragmatic purity. The actual result is I can’t debate this stuff with them. They are deeply mired in their own immediate interests and self-concern. In contrast if I wanted to, I could go home, unplug the tv, never read the news, and would suffer only minor differences. Not everyone has that luxury the way I do.

    And btw on this issue, everyone “is holier than thou.” It’s that tricky an issue. This is one of those cases where telling someone else they’re being holier than thou IS being holier than thou.

    So I get past the name-calling stage and just say to myself, what percentage of those fears (others fears) is real, and what does it mean to me that it’s real. How does thinking about that influence my decisions.

    It’s all very real even if I would have written that editorial differently.

    #49750
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Well, not to get all third-grader on ya, but the editorial started the name calling.

    ;>)

    So, I get your point. Mine is different. I see a stark case of the privileged playing Marie Antoinette while the poor and the oppressed are getting crushed. I see the “go slow and be pragmatic” approach as contributing mightily to their oppression. And, as mentioned, to me, it’s not even working as they say it’s intended to work. We’re going backward on most issues, not forward, even slowly.

    I also see pols far more interested in the status of their respective parties, the concern for inter-party comity (especially from the Dems), than for actually working hard for all of us, now. Today. Not via endlessly kicking the can down the road.

    Posted it before, but I think this is a really good article about the so-called “reasonable and pragmatic” crowd. Worth reading the whole thing.

    __

    An excerpt:

    The Crackpot Realism of Clintonian Politics

    You see, critics of Hillary Clinton are children who only recently became politicized that should just shut up. This attitude is peculiar for a few reasons. First, during election season there’s nothing that pundits love more than to denounce young people for not being interested in politics and voting more. Now that they start to pay attention it’s time to shut up and stop being so interested in discussing politics. Pundits evidentially want young people to help get elected the person that “adults” have already selected, not actually have any influence over the political process. Second, the supposed strawman Roberts is beating up on is actually not wrong! You’d think when making fun of “millennials” it would be wise to pick something more negligible than throwing millions of people into crushing poverty. But to the liberal commentariat that was so long ago and her agency was (and is) small.

    Some of these same pundits will object to the claim that they “defend her at every turn”. They will point to some mildly critical article they wrote or an interview they did with Sanders seven months ago as evidence of their “objectivity”. These comments comically miss the point. First, the amount written taking Hillary Clinton’s self image as a realist and “serious politician” is leaps and bounds greater then the writing critical of her or supportive of sanders. Even Vox criticism of her reads like PR consultations. Second, ardent defense isn’t measured in how much you write on “each” topic. It’s measured in the tone and attitude pouring through all your writing and in this case it’s overwhelming. To take but one example (again from Vox), here is Ezra Klein writing at the end of January:

    Clinton’s theory of change is probably analytically correct, and it’s well-suited to a world in which Republicans will almost certainly continue to control the House, and so a Democratic president will have to grind out victories of compromise in Congress and of bureaucratic mastery through executive action.

    #49753
    zn
    Moderator

    Well, not to get all third-grader on ya, but the editorial started the name calling.

    ;>)

    So, I get your point. Mine is different. I see a stark case of the privileged playing Marie Antoinette while the poor and the oppressed are getting crushed. I see the “go slow and be pragmatic” approach as contributing mightily to their oppression. And, as mentioned, to me, it’s not even working as they say it’s intended to work. We’re going backward on most issues, not forward, even slowly.

    I think, my old friend, you are just missing the point. And frankly I don’t care about the name-calling. I know where it;s coming from. It doesn’t bother me. And I am just as much a target of it as you are so I know we don’t have to take it badly. I don’t.

    IMO people on the left like us are obligated to look at white male privilege and not get defensive about it. Just to be informed.

    Then after taking it seriously we have to make the decisions we have to make.

    I am btw part of the reasonable and pragmatic crowd. I don’t consider that incompatible in the least with being on the left. And I am not saying “go slow” to anything. Neither was the editorial. In fact there may be more Edmund Burke in me than you…I have always argued Burke can be dialectically reconfigured into a left Burke. And the left Burke in me says, us boys with abstract ideas are a positive menace. Go out and work with what’s real.

    I don’t see anything about the “who to vote for” issue as having to do with “delaying progress.” Heck if we depended on presidents for progress we would never have gotten anything. Real progressive change is not top/down. So I don’t believe in hero presidents. I do however believe in menace presidents. I believe presidents and parties in power CAN do harm. So the urgency is, prevent the catastrophe. It won’t NOT be a catastrophe. And for those of us in the loving arms of white straight male privilege…it will be far less of one.

    And btw those without white straight male privilege include the poor and THEY are always far more quickly crushed than we are.

    You can’t separate race and class and gender. Not if you want to have a real discussion of the real problems.

    And for the record I am never a purist about anything. I don’t believe in abstract ideals. I believe in practical action, just action in the name of left principles. Theories don;t interest me. To me theories always look like dogma. That’s just inescapable—it’s how I see things.

    And part of that means seeing, and seeing in our case means actually seeing to what extent we actually really genuinely ARE protected by white straight male privilege.

    #49755
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Well, I think we’re probably both talking past each other at this point and we’re not even working with the same reality. I also see the editorial, starting with its title, as filled with strawmen.

    That’s my take. I don’t think I’m missing its points or yours. We’re just starting out with a different view on the premises involved. I don’t agree with their descriptions of what is happening, for instance, politically. Or our choices. And I see their scolding as self-serving and ultimately ineffective.

    As in, I’m not avoiding the issue of “white privilege” at all. I’m saying they have it too and won’t cop to that. And I’m especially not avoiding class, which mainstream pundits do like it’s the plague.

    I’m saying the editorial and all too many mainstream pundits are painting things as an either/or choice, when we have a great many other options . . . and, I think they’re flailing in a rather dirty little way by trying to shame people into supporting their view of things. From where I sit, they need to look in the mirror.

    Again, the entire “purity” thing is a strawman. No one is asking for it. As is the ancient and tired old quip, “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” Again, no one is asking for perfect, and most of us don’t see any of “the good” it’s supposedly displacing.

    #49756
    Billy_T
    Participant

    btw, as a side note:

    I think Sanders doesn’t go nearly far enough. Not even close. So it kinda amuses me, and then it saddens me, that he’s taken so much abuse for proposing what once were mainstream Democratic ideas. As in, he’s just trying to take the party back to FDR and update it a bit for 2016. He’s talking about New Deal stuff, updated.

    Nothing radical in anything he’s talking about, and nothing that can’t be done.

    I’m waaay to Bernie’s left in my beliefs, especially when it comes to what ought to be done, the changes that ought to be made. It’s not even close. He is still intent on reforming capitalism, for example. I see that as a waste of precious time which would be better spent on repealing and replacing it with an economic system that has social justice already baked in.

    So, again, going back to the discussion above . . . . the complaints of “white privilege” against Sanders and his supporters seem all the more absurd to me, as they relate to his proposals. Nothing he has asked for is beyond the pale. Nothing he talks about takes us outside the actual realm of the possible. One might be able to make a (very weak) case about “purity” if it weren’t for the fact that all of his proposals are “moderate” in comparison to countries like Denmark, Sweden and Norway.

    Frankly, I think the use of race in this case — at least by some — is an effort to steer things away from even his all too modest reforms and back to the center-right status quo.

    #49757
    zn
    Moderator

    btw, as a side note:

    I think Sanders doesn’t go nearly far enough. Not even close. So it kinda amuses me, and then it saddens me, that he’s taken so much abuse for proposing what once were mainstream Democratic ideas. As in, he’s just trying to take the party back to FDR and update it a bit for 2016. He’s talking about New Deal stuff, updated.

    Nothing radical in anything he’s talking about, and nothing that can’t be done.

    I’m waaay to Bernie’s left in my beliefs, especially when it comes to what ought to be done, the changes that ought to be made. It’s not even close. He is still intent on reforming capitalism. I see that as a waste of valuable time which would be better spent on repealing and replacing it with an economic system that has social justice already baked in.

    So, again, going back to the discussion above . . . . the complaints of “white privilege” against Sanders and his supporters seem all the more absurd to me, as they relate to his proposals. Nothing he has asked for is beyond the pale. Nothing he talks about takes us outside of the actual realm of the possible. One might be able to make a case about “purity” if it weren’t for the fact that all of his proposals are “moderate” in comparison to countries like Denmark, Sweden and Norway.

    Frankly, I think the use of race — at least by some — is an effort to steer things away from even his all too modest reforms and back to the center-right status quo.

    Yeah Sanders is what Chomsky said he was, a new deal type.

    But I think steering away from race is a white straight male privilege move.

    And to me unless it has equal parts race and gender in it along with class, it’s not even the left.

    None of this is easy. It;s mangled tangled and bumpy. There will never be anyone who gets it all right. Dismissing race though is a mistake. In the USA you can’t think class without race being part of it. And once that is realized, then there’s a lot of challenging and conflict-laden ideas to work through. None of us will get it “right” either.

    #49759
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Yeah Sanders is what Chomsky said he was, a new deal type.

    But I think steering away from race is a white straight male privilege move.

    And to me unless it has equal parts race and gender in it along with class, it’s not even the left.

    None of this is easy. It;s mangled tangled and bumpy. There will never be anyone who gets it all right. Dismissing race though is a mistake. In the USA you can’t think class without race being part of it. And once that is realized, then there’s a lot of challenging and conflict-laden ideas to work through. None of us will get it “right” either.

    __

    I’m not seeing people dismissing race. I see some using it to steer the conversation back to mainstream Democratic/GOP status quo. An attempt to shame people into just shutting up and clapping louder, especially young people, filled with passion, ideals, energy and the desire for change.

    And, no, these discussions really don’t need a certain preset balance in order to be “the left.” That sounds like a demand for “purity,” IMO.

    __

    And to me unless it has equal parts race and gender in it along with class, it’s not even the left.

    __

    Again, I think you and I just aren’t dealing with the same interpretation of things here. It’s the proverbial talking past each other. So on that note, I think I’m gonna head out.

    Enjoy the weekend!

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Billy_T.
    #49762
    zn
    Moderator

    I’m not seeing people dismissing race. I see some using it to steer the conversation back to mainstream Democratic/GOP status quo.

    Yeah, that;s the interpretation I call dismissing race.

    Listen to people. Sanders did not draw minority votes. People say why. It’s because they have more to fear and lose from Trump so they had to build defenses against that.

    By telling those people they’re just steering things wrong is kind of not to hear them.

    Which may be why in the abstract they don’t trust you…meaning, they don’t trust people who make the same calculation.

    If you can’t hear that this is a big and important part of the discussion, and that means hearing some things we don’t like, then, we’re just simply not being real about it.

    Look at the books we read. How many are from THIS list?

    http://www.bustle.com/articles/144531-18-books-every-white-ally-should-read

    And I ain’t read em all believe me. So this is not some “who’s got the brightest 10-speed” kind of competition thing.

    ….

    #49763
    InvaderRam
    Moderator

    any choice is the wrong choice.

    #49764
    Billy_T
    Participant

    I’m not seeing people dismissing race. I see some using it to steer the conversation back to mainstream Democratic/GOP status quo.

    Yeah, that;s the interpretation I call dismissing race.

    Listen to people. Sanders did not draw minority votes. People say why. It’s because they have more to fear and lose from Trump so they had to build defenses against that.

    By telling those people they’re just steering things wrong is kind of not to hear them.

    Which may be why in the abstract they don’t trust you…meaning, they don’t trust people who make the same calculation.

    If you can’t hear that this is a big and important part of the discussion, and that means hearing some things we don’t like, then, we’re just simply not being real about it.

    Look at the books we read. How many are from THIS list?

    http://www.bustle.com/articles/144531-18-books-every-white-ally-should-read

    And I ain’t read em all believe me. So this is not some “who’s got the brightest 10-speed” kind of competition thing.

    ….

    I gotta respond. ZN, you’re amping this up and making it personal, and I don’t appreciate it. I’m not “telling people” anything. I’m responding to the editorial and the title and your insistence that it’s all about white privilege if someone has a different take on how we should govern and what we should be pushing for, and how all of that is so extremely urgent, now, not for next year, or next decade, or the next generation. Now.

    Seriously, I find that deeply offensive, and you need to stop it.

    You are forever saying that no one holds THE truth, but in this thread you’re insisting YOU do, and you’re using insults to push that over the line.

    Again, we’re NOT talking about the same things. And when I say that, you come back with “it’s another example of white privilege,” blah blah blah. Seems not to matter what I say, you want that to be the takeaway each time.

    Again, just stop it.

    #49765
    zn
    Moderator

    I’m not seeing people dismissing race. I see some using it to steer the conversation back to mainstream Democratic/GOP status quo.

    Yeah, that;s the interpretation I call dismissing race.

    Listen to people. Sanders did not draw minority votes. People say why. It’s because they have more to fear and lose from Trump so they had to build defenses against that.

    By telling those people they’re just steering things wrong is kind of not to hear them.

    Which may be why in the abstract they don’t trust you…meaning, they don’t trust people who make the same calculation.

    If you can’t hear that this is a big and important part of the discussion, and that means hearing some things we don’t like, then, we’re just simply not being real about it.

    Look at the books we read. How many are from THIS list?

    http://www.bustle.com/articles/144531-18-books-every-white-ally-should-read

    And I ain’t read em all believe me. So this is not some “who’s got the brightest 10-speed” kind of competition thing.

    ….

    I gotta respond. ZN, you’re amping this up and making it personal, and I don’t appreciate it. I’m not “telling people” anything. I’m responding to the editorial and the title and your insistence that it’s all about white privilege if someone has a different take on how we should govern.

    Seriously, I find that deeply offensive, and you need to stop it.

    You are forever saying that no one hold THE truth, but in this thread you’re insisting YOU do, and you’re using insults to push that over the line.

    Again, we’re NOT talking about the same things. And when I say that, you come back with “it’s another example of white privilege,” blah blah blah. Seems not to matter what I say, you want that to be the takeaway each time.

    Again, just stop it.

    I wasn’t being personal. Not in the way you’re taking it. I was just conversing. You’re taking some “just ways of putting it” and reading things in that are not there. You didn’t even notice that in this conversation I said “we” as often as I said anything else.

    I did nothing offensive. Re-read it. Since I didn’t do anything offensive, I think another reading will show you that.

    And I said without encountering the hard parts of race and working through it we can’t really know the issues. I said nothing about “truth.” I was talking about the difficulty of us working through the hard stuff. I never said where that would lead.

    In terms of not talking about the same things, I don’t know what you mean by that and I had some things on my chest so was just conversing. If we miscommunicated, okay, but, no one ever INTENDS that.

    #49768
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Okay, so I step back, breathe, etc.

    What I’m saying is it appeared to me that you were calling me out for not recognizing the importance of race. I don’t think that’s fair at all. I recognize its importance daily. But the reason I’m saying we’re talking about different things here is that the very same people who say it’s easy for Sanders and his supporters, because, white privilege, are themselves privileged whites. So, to me, the logical thing to do (if this, then that) is throw out that variable, because it’s one they hold in common, and instead focus on the idea of how we should do effective politics, make good policy, go slow, go pragmatic, speed that up, push harder for better legislation, or be satisfied with a fraction of the loaf, etc. etc.

    I’m talking about white pundits who tried/try to shame young Sanders’ supporters via the use of race; or Democratic surrogates for HRC who, also white and far more privileged, did the same.

    So, it’s not about me failing to listen to POCs or not understanding their plight. I see them largely left out of the debate, and it predominantly being between whites only — in government, in the media, and online. I didn’t see this particular thread as being one between POCs and whites, directly or indirectly, but it looks like you did.

    (And that’s fine. It’s fine if that’s how you saw it. But we weren’t dealing with the same reality in that case.)

    Again, that’s one of the key places we were talking past each other.

    #49770
    zn
    Moderator

    Okay, so I step back, breathe, etc.

    What I’m saying is it appeared to me that you were calling me out for not recognizing the importance of race. I don’t think that’s fair at all. I recognize its importance daily. But the reason I’m saying we’re talking about different things here is that the very same people who say it’s easy for Sanders and his supporters, because, white privilege, are themselves privileged whites. So, to me, the logical thing to do (if this, then that) is throw out that variable, because it’s one they hold in common, and instead focus on the idea of how we should do effective politics, make good policy, go slow, go pragmatic, speed that up, push harder for better legislation, or be satisfied with a fraction of the loaf, etc. etc.

    I’m talking about white pundits who tried/try to shame young Sanders’ supporters via the use of race; or Democratic surrogates for HRC who, also white and far more privileged, did the same.

    So, it’s not about me failing to listen to POCs or not understanding their plight. I see them largely left out of the debate, and it predominantly being between whites only — in government, in the media, and online. I didn’t see this particular thread as being one between POCs and whites, but it looks like you did.

    Again, that’s one of the key places we were talking past each other.

    Well thanks for bringing it back down and sorry if I put some things wrong in the heat of discussion. I also see far better than I did how yeah we were talking about different things.

    I didn’t see the author as shaming, exactly, though I certainly didn’t appreciate his approach—while reading it I kept thinking I could have done a better job with the same material. And in the world I run in there are a lot of those—Hillary guys who are nazis about it. I am in the difficult position, in fact, of both backing down the Hillary nazis while simultaneously arguing with the leftists I know that Trump is genuinely so much worse that there’s really only one pragmatic thing to do. Where I live, I am very close to getting voted off the island. But it;s the civil war and both the union people and the confederates are voting me off simultaneously. I don’t think I will be allowed to speak at my trial.

    #49771
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Of course, it goes without saying that it shouldn’t be just privileges whites talking to other privileged whites — in the media, in government, etc. etc.

    Just saying that when it is, it can often devolve into a “holier than thou,” self-serving event for the few, and that really doesn’t solve a thing, ever. From what I’ve seen, it also draws rebuke from POC public figures — or laughter, or scorn, etc. etc.

    And, om that note, I really have to get out of here and find some super-powerful cough and cold medicine. Not that any of that ever seems to work for me.

    Edit: Thanks for your reply, ZN. Much appreciated.

    Best to you and yours.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Billy_T.
    • This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Billy_T.
    #49792
    bnw
    Blocked

    And in the world I run in there are a lot of those—Hillary guys who are nazis about it. I am in the difficult position, in fact, of both backing down the Hillary nazis while simultaneously arguing with the leftists I know that Trump is genuinely so much worse that there’s really only one pragmatic thing to do. Where I live, I am very close to getting voted off the island. But it;s the civil war and both the union people and the confederates are voting me off simultaneously. I don’t think I will be allowed to speak at my trial.

    Not true. You will be allowed to speak. However the gag remains.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #49809
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Clinton supporter.

    Got both Sanders’ supporters and Trump wrong.

    Sure, Clinton has started saying a lot of Sanders’ things, but he misses the point that one of the criticisms of Clinton is she “will say anything, and do nothing.” And he acts like Sanders supporters are babies because they have trouble believing a woman who has been erratic in her promises, and consistent in her actions.

    Meanwhile, Trump is not outwardly threatening fascism, or even implying it. Perhaps the author doesn’t know what fascism is.

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