The meaning of Trump ?

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March 6, 2016 at 4:24 pm #40077

wv
Participant

Groping for the meaning of Trump. Friend of mine sent me this. Fwiw.

This French Philosopher Is The Only One Who Can Explain The Donald Trump Phenomenon

This French Philosopher Is The Only One Who Can Explain The Donald Trump Phenomenon

by Judd Legum Sep 14, 2015 8:40 am

Donald Trump has political pundits stumped.

They’ve been predicting his imminent downfall for months. Every “gaffe” that was supposed to destroy his support has only made him stronger. “DON VOYAGE: Trump Toast After Insult,” a headline in the New York Post blared nearly two months ago. The insult at issue, questioning John McCain’s military service, is so many insults ago that it isn’t even mentioned any more.

Meanwhile, Trump still dominates the polls, leading the GOP field by about 14 points nationally. With the exception of one poll in John Kasich’s home state of Ohio, Trump has led every state and national poll since the beginning of August.

You won’t find Roland Barthes on the Sunday morning roundtables dissecting the presidential race. Barthes is a French philosopher who died in 1980. But his work may hold the key to understanding Trump’s popularity and his staying power.

Barthes is best known for his work in semiotics, the study of signs and symbols. But he wasn’t limited to lengthy, esoteric treatises. Rather, Barthes published much of his work in short, accessible pieces breaking down elements of popular culture. The New York Times described Barthes as the godfather of the TV recap.

His most famous essay, published in his 1957 book Mythologies, focuses on professional wrestling. Could an essay about professional wrestling hold the key to understanding Trump’s appeal? It’s worth noting that, before he was a presidential candidate, Trump was an active participant in the WWE. In 2013, Trump was inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame.
TrumpWWE2

In his essay, Barthes contrasts pro wrestling to boxing.

This public knows very well the distinction between wrestling and boxing; it knows that boxing is a Jansenist sport, based on a demonstration of excellence. One can bet on the outcome of a boxing-match: with wrestling, it would make no sense. A boxing- match is a story which is constructed before the eyes of the spectator; in wrestling, on the contrary, it is each moment which is intelligible, not the passage of time… The logical conclusion of the contest does not interest the wrestling-fan, while on the contrary a boxing-match always implies a science of the future. In other words, wrestling is a sum of spectacles, of which no single one is a function: each moment imposes the total knowledge of a passion which rises erect and alone, without ever extending to the crowning moment of a result.

In the current campaign, Trump is behaving like a professional wrestler while Trump’s opponents are conducting the race like a boxing match. As the rest of the field measures up their next jab, Trump decks them over the head with a metal chair.

Others in the Republican field are concerned with the rules and constructing a strategy that, under those rules, will lead to the nomination. But Trump isn’t concerned with those things. Instead, Trump is focused on each moment and eliciting the maximum amount of passion in that moment. His supporters love it.

The key to generating passion, Barthes notes, is to position yourself to deliver justice against evil forces by whatever means necessary. “Wrestlers know very well how to play up to the capacity for indignation of the public by presenting the very limit of the concept of Justice,” Barthes writes.

Trump knows how to define his opponent — China, “illegals,” hedge fund managers — and pledges to go after them with unbridled aggression. If, in making his case, he crosses over a line or two, all the better.
TrumpWWE4

For a pro wrestler, energy is everything. A wrestling fan is less interested in what is happening — or the coherence of how one event leads to the next — than the fact that something is happening. On that score, Trump delivers. He is omnipresent on TV. When he can’t make it in front of the camera, he’ll simply call in. When he’s not on TV, he’s tweeting boasts, insults, and non-sequiturs. When he runs out of things to tweet, he retweets random comments from his supporters.

Along those lines, Trump’s favorite insult — which he has employed repeatedly against Jeb Bush and, more recently, Ben Carson — is that his opponents are “low energy.”

Frenetic action is suicidal for a boxer, or a traditional politician. But Trump is not bound by those limitations. The crazier things get — Trump suggesting a popular Fox News host asked him a tough question because she was menstruating, for example — the more Trump’s supporters love it.

Some fights, among the most successful kind, are crowned by a final charivari, a sort of unrestrained fantasia where the rules, the laws of the genre, the referee’s censuring and the limits of the ring are abolished, swept away by a triumphant disorder which overflows into the hall and carries off pell-mell wrestlers, seconds, referee and spectators.

But why can’t voters see that what Trump offers is just an act? As Barthes illustrates, that’s asking the wrong question.

It is obvious that at such a pitch, it no longer matters whether the passion is genuine or not. What the public wants is the image of passion, not passion itself. There is no more a problem of truth in wrestling than in the theater.

This analogy reveals why the attacks on Trump are so ineffective. Recently, Rand Paul and others have taken to calling out Trump as an “entertainer,” rather than a legitimate candidate. This is as effective to running into the middle of the ring during Wrestlemania and yelling: “This is all fake!” You are correct, but you will not be received well.
TrumpWWE1

One of Barthes’ central points is that boxing — or traditional rules and decorum — is not morally superior to pro wrestling. In fact, for all its artifice, one could argue that pro wrestling today is a more noble pursuit than boxing, which is hopelessly corrupt and currently dominated by a convicted domestic abuser and unrepentant misogynist.

Similarly, Trump is able to take advantage of the obvious dysfunction of the traditional political system. In 2016, the candidates are shadowed by massively funded Super PACs that often rely on just a few donors. Many Republican candidates hold positions supported by this elite donor class but not the electorate at large. Others refuse to answer questions at all.

Compared to this system, the things that Trump is offering — passion, energy, a sense of justice — may not seem so bad.

Does this mean that Trump will be the Republican nominee? No one really knows. But we do know that traditional punditry is incapable of understanding his appeal.

Roland Barthes has been dead for 35 years, but he may be onto something.
Tags

Donald TrumpRoland Barthes

March 7, 2016 at 5:59 am #40099

PA Ram
Participant

So he’s appealing to the pro wrestling fans?

I can see that. It’s a natural constituency for him. I know some wrestling fans and they acknowledge it’s fake–but they still watch–they still enjoy the “soap opera” of it all.

They still buy the special events to watch.

I can see some of that with Trump supporters. They don’t dig very deep on why they like him or what he will accomplish or actually how he will accomplish it.

Mexico will build the wall? Okay–good enough.

They LIKE him–they like his colorful personality–his willingness to act like a jerk to the other candidates–to not play the establishment game.

They don’t care about details. The voters he’s attracting don’t care about long policy speeches or charts or anything like that. They’re angry people who want to lash out at something–who will support someone who speaks for THEM–who screams at these other politicians or who may express somewhat openly, any racist feelings they have.

It’s a “feel good” vote for them.

Don’t bother them with details or the consequences of putting such a man in office.

It is fueled by emotion.

Trying to figure out something like that, to label it or to find some sort of logic behind it will inevitably fail. Emotion is distant from logic.

The establishment can’t figure out Bernie or Trump.

But more than anything else both candidates give certain segments of the population a voice–and that’s very appealing. Most of the time the establishment doesn’t listen to those voices(in the case of Trump–I find that a good thing) but there are real people behind the voices who have been screaming into the woods for years.

The establishment didn’t hear them.

Now they do.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

March 7, 2016 at 6:46 am #40100

wv
Participant

Do you think its the same with Bernie and his supporters
or do you think its the opposite? Ie, Bernie supporters
are all about the Policies and not the drama/emotion ?

For me personally, its always the policies. Period.

w
v

March 7, 2016 at 7:55 am #40103

bnw
Blocked

The american people have been lied to so often by politicians that many refused to vote at all. Trump has channeled the peoples disgust with politicians lying to get into office into greater voter participation within the republican party. I believe Bernie has done the same for the democrats but nowhere near the extent Trump has achieved with the republicans.

I remember when the disingenuous pundits would lament the lack of voter participation. Trump is an evolving political movement that isn’t polished isn’t sanctioned and isn’t wanted by the entrenched political power establishment of republicans and democrats. They do not own Trump whereas Trump has owned them in the past and this November too.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

March 7, 2016 at 1:09 pm #40117

PA Ram
Participant

wv wrote:

Do you think its the same with Bernie and his supporters
or do you think its the opposite? Ie, Bernie supporters
are all about the Policies and not the drama/emotion ?

For me personally, its always the policies. Period.

w
v

I would hope that people mostly vote on policy although I don’t think that’s true. I always consider policy first but I have to put character with that–as in sincerity of what a candidate is selling.

A candidate can be whatever the candidate needs to be to get elected. So character is important. Does the candidate believe what he/she says? Or are they just presenting to be something they think will sell at the moment? If they’re phony than their policy doesn’t make much difference. How will they truly govern?

So to really decide takes some digging. Just watching the superficial news media won’t help.

It takes effort–work, real involvement.

Millions of Americans won’t even take the time to vote.

Others, who do take that time, will put little if any effort into the work of deciding on a candidate.

I believe that most Americans vote on emotion–period. Do they like the guy? Do they like the brand?

I just read a Matt Taibbi article in Rolling Stone where he interviewed a Trump supporter and the person was going on about how Trump was blasting the trade deals and this and that and how she liked that. When Taibbi asked her if she had supported Dick Gephardt when he had brought up the same issues she said that she did not. She didn’t “like” Gephardt. She “liked” Trump. Years ago I can remember someone being interviewed about why they were voting for Dukakis and they said they liked his ties.

This is real America. This is who decides elections.

And look, I’m not saying that no one has dug into Trump and at the end of the day like him anyway–I’m sure those people are out there. Or they have just decided a big FU to the establishment is worth their vote.

People have all sorts of reasons for voting who they vote for–some reasons seem sane and others do not.

I am a Bernie supporter. And I hear that while some people like Bernie, they don’t see his political revolution happening overnight and that he won’t be able to get half the things done he’s saying he will do once elected. And it’s a great argument. I get how people can feel that way and vote for Hillary.

My problem is that I don’t see her changing very much. I don’t like the idea that these changes will happen but it’s a long slow process. Little victories will get us there. That’s why we have medicare and social security and now a national health care program.

That may be true–or not. The pendulum can easily swing the other way.

There’s the character issue. Why should I believe that someone who takes money from Wall Street will regulate them?

What about foreign policy? Will she think things through before burying us in another nightmare? I have no doubt Bernie would be very cautious about such things. I don’t know that about her. She may even try to PROVE how serious she is after the whole Benghazi mess.

I don’t know.

I trust Bernie.

But…having said all of that…I would still vote for her in the general election over the Republicans. That makes me sick in some ways. I won’t make calls for her, won’t donate to her, won’t try to sell her to anyone, won’t bring any enthusiasm to her campaign.

I will push a button and hope for the best.

But that’s not what the primary is for, in my opinion. That’s about getting who you REALLY want to the nomination. If he loses, at least he has given a voice to someone like me, who feels the way he does about money in politics and political corruption.

I appreciate that.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

March 7, 2016 at 4:38 pm #40123

Ozoneranger
Participant

I, too, vote on policy first. Then electibility (did I just invent a word?).

And so I’m astonished at the rise of Trump and Sanders. I mean, Trump seems to have convinced his followers that he could just wave his magic Trump wand, add a few crumbs of his power of personality, and poof! All of our problems are solved. None of those voters seem to understand civics, the three branches of government and how they (sometimes) work in concert. Sanders has the same problem. If elected, he has a rats chance in hell of getting 10 percent of his agenda passed, even with a Democrat-controlled congress. And his crew, mainly the young ones, are every bit as clueless as Trump’s are about how a republic works versus Scandinavia, of all places.

I think you’re right; it’s emotion born of anger. And that’s a scary thing.

March 7, 2016 at 5:25 pm #40124

nittany ram
Moderator

Ozoneranger wrote:

I, too, vote on policy first. Then electibility (did I just invent a word?).

And so I’m astonished at the rise of Trump and Sanders. I mean, Trump seems to have convinced his followers that he could just wave his magic Trump wand, add a few crumbs of his power of personality, and poof! All of our problems are solved. None of those voters seem to understand civics, the three branches of government and how they (sometimes) work in concert. Sanders has the same problem. If elected, he has a rats chance in hell of getting 10 percent of his agenda passed, even with a Democrat-controlled congress. And his crew, mainly the young ones, are every bit as clueless as Trump’s are about how a republic works versus Scandinavia, of all places.

I think you’re right; it’s emotion born of anger. And that’s a scary thing.

What bothers me the most about Trump is how his racist rhetoric seems to attract voters instead of repel them. I mean, of course he attracts KKK members and white supremacists who wear their hatred on their sleeves and are only too proud to show it. But a larger segment of the population who harbor racist ideals but keep them hidden for the most part now they feel emboldened to openly cheer on his rhetoric. He’s empowered their bigotry which leads to events like the assaulting of people of color at his rallies. I think there’s a substantial segment of white people who are threatened and angered by what they perceive as the ‘browning’ of America and they see Trump as their white savior.

March 7, 2016 at 7:01 pm #40125

TSRF
Participant

Hammer aimed, nail hit on the fricken head, Nittany. Times like this, I’m embarrassed to be white… Thankfully, my wife and kids seem to feel the same way. I hope that is a good sign for the future, if there is one, that is.

March 7, 2016 at 7:40 pm #40126

bnw
Blocked

nittany ram wrote:

What bothers me the most about Trump is how his racist rhetoric seems to attract voters instead of repel them. I mean, of course he attracts KKK members and white supremacists who wear their hatred on their sleeves and are only too proud to show it. But a larger segment of the population who harbor racist ideals but keep them hidden for the most part now they feel emboldened to openly cheer on his rhetoric. He’s empowered their bigotry which leads to events like the assaulting of people of color at his rallies. I think there’s a substantial segment of white people who are threatened and angered by what they perceive as the ‘browning’ of America and they see Trump as their white savior.

Throwing the racist and bigotry card around won’t work this time. The people are fed up. The two tiered justice system that doesn’t work for the average guy. The two tiered economy that only works for the top 1%. Campaign rhetoric to get elected then the reality of governance for the lobbyists. Under Obama black unemployment has doubled. Playing the race card is ridiculous given the state of the economy and the assault on liberty and personal privacy through never ending Homeland Security excuses. Government that refuses to obey its own laws while imprisoning its citizens at an alarming rate. The people are sick of the hypocrisy. Trump is seen as the candidate willing to right the ship of state.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

March 7, 2016 at 9:21 pm #40129

TSRF
Participant

???

Have you watched these rally ejections by the red hats, with the ring leader himself pointing out into the crowd?

I’m waiting for Pink Floyd to start playing “Young Lust”…

From my point of view, Trump is a fear mongering, hate mongering fucking Nazi. You obviously have a different point of view…

March 7, 2016 at 10:40 pm #40132

bnw
Blocked

TSRF wrote:

???

Have you watched these rally ejections by the red hats, with the ring leader himself pointing out into the crowd?

I’m waiting for Pink Floyd to start playing “Young Lust”…

From my point of view, Trump is a fear mongering, hate mongering fucking Nazi. You obviously have a different point of view…

Pointing at someone who deliberately went to the rally to disrupt it? Oh the horror. Trump pointed at someone who wanted the attention. For that he’s a Nazi? Sigh.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

March 8, 2016 at 12:24 am #40136

waterfield
Participant

Bill Maher believes he is the closest thing to Hitler that this country has ever seen. If so its no wonder he is so popular. How sad and frightening.

March 8, 2016 at 6:55 am #40140

nittany ram
Moderator

bnw wrote:

nittany ram wrote:

What bothers me the most about Trump is how his racist rhetoric seems to attract voters instead of repel them. I mean, of course he attracts KKK members and white supremacists who wear their hatred on their sleeves and are only too proud to show it. But a larger segment of the population who harbor racist ideals but keep them hidden for the most part now they feel emboldened to openly cheer on his rhetoric. He’s empowered their bigotry which leads to events like the assaulting of people of color at his rallies. I think there’s a substantial segment of white people who are threatened and angered by what they perceive as the ‘browning’ of America and they see Trump as their white savior.

Throwing the racist and bigotry card around won’t work this time. The people are fed up. The two tiered justice system that doesn’t work for the average guy. The two tiered economy that only works for the top 1%. Campaign rhetoric to get elected then the reality of governance for the lobbyists. Under Obama black unemployment has doubled. Playing the race card is ridiculous given the state of the economy and the assault on liberty and personal privacy through never ending Homeland Security excuses. Government that refuses to obey its own laws while imprisoning its citizens at an alarming rate. The people are sick of the hypocrisy. Trump is seen as the candidate willing to right the ship of state.

Well, if mentioning a fact is playing a card, then I guess I’m playing a card. I’m not saying all Trump supporters are racist but being a Trump supporter means you have to support a candidate who espouses racist ideals. To some folks, I guess that doesn’t ‘trump’ his positions on other issues.

Bernie Sanders speaks out against all the things you just listed but he doesn’t attract racist supporters.

March 8, 2016 at 8:17 am #40141

bnw
Blocked

waterfield wrote:

Bill Maher believes he is the closest thing to Hitler that this country has ever seen. If so its no wonder he is so popular. How sad and frightening.

Trump wants to be an even handed broker of peace talks between Israel and its neighbors. For that he is Hitler? Was Jimmy Carter?

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

March 8, 2016 at 8:31 am #40142

bnw
Blocked

nittany ram wrote:

bnw wrote:

nittany ram wrote:

What bothers me the most about Trump is how his racist rhetoric seems to attract voters instead of repel them. I mean, of course he attracts KKK members and white supremacists who wear their hatred on their sleeves and are only too proud to show it. But a larger segment of the population who harbor racist ideals but keep them hidden for the most part now they feel emboldened to openly cheer on his rhetoric. He’s empowered their bigotry which leads to events like the assaulting of people of color at his rallies. I think there’s a substantial segment of white people who are threatened and angered by what they perceive as the ‘browning’ of America and they see Trump as their white savior.

Throwing the racist and bigotry card around won’t work this time. The people are fed up. The two tiered justice system that doesn’t work for the average guy. The two tiered economy that only works for the top 1%. Campaign rhetoric to get elected then the reality of governance for the lobbyists. Under Obama black unemployment has doubled. Playing the race card is ridiculous given the state of the economy and the assault on liberty and personal privacy through never ending Homeland Security excuses. Government that refuses to obey its own laws while imprisoning its citizens at an alarming rate. The people are sick of the hypocrisy. Trump is seen as the candidate willing to right the ship of state.

Well, if mentioning a fact is playing a card, then I guess I’m playing a card. I’m not saying all Trump supporters are racist but being a Trump supporter means you have to support a candidate who espouses racist ideals. To some folks, I guess that doesn’t ‘trump’ his positions on other issues.

Bernie Sanders speaks out against all the things you just listed but he doesn’t attract racist supporters.

What racist ideals does Trump espouse? Ideals, not the projecting of your fear. Give these racist ideals substance. List them. Succinctly describe them. Then I’ll reply in kind to each description from this Trump supporters view. Drive byes are easy. Lets strive for better.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

March 8, 2016 at 10:08 am #40144

wv
Participant

bnw wrote:

What racist ideals does Trump espouse? Ideals, not the projecting of your fear. Give these racist ideals substance. List them. Succinctly describe them. Then I’ll reply in kind to each description from this Trump supporters view. Drive byes are easy. Lets strive for better.

Personally, i dont have any idea whether he’s a ‘racist’
or has racist policies etc. I do ‘wonder’ about it,
but i cant say I know for sure, so i stay away from that topic.

I do think he “appeals” to the more racist elements in the country.
He says things in a way that make those racist-elements feel like
he’s “one of them”.

At any rate, I dont listen to Republicans in general so i dont really know what his actual “policies” are. I ‘assume’ they are typical rep policies so i ‘assume’ I’d be against them. But i havent done the work of actually looking at them. There used to be a site that listed all the major candidates and their actual policies. Maybe someone can find that and post it.

w
v

March 8, 2016 at 10:11 am #40145
wv
Participant
http://2016.republican-candidates.org/Trump/

Take a look at Trumps idea on Health Care. Interesting.
Is he for National Health Care?

—————————

some excerpts:
Donald Trump on the Minimum Wage
Trump has made solidly conservative statements concerning the minimum wage in the past, viewing it primarily as a point of competition between United States businesses and those of other countries.

“We can’t have a situation where our labor is so much more expensive than other countries’ that we can no longer compete.”

As with so many other issues, Trump has spoken in an inflammatory manner on minimum wage, as well.

“Having a low minimum wage is not a bad thing for this country.”
—-
Donald Trump on Taxes
Trump supports raising taxes on the very wealthy – arguing that the current tax code requires them to pay very little if anything at all – and lowering taxes on the middle class.

DONALD TRUMP: ”I would say that the hedge fund people make a lot of money and they pay very little tax. I’m about the middle class. I want the middle class to be thriving again. We’re losing our middle class…”

INTERVIEWER: “So change the tax code?”

TRUMP: “I would change it, I would simplify it, I would…”

INTERVIEWER: “But in this respect, you want to tax carried interest in the same way as ordinary income is taxed.”

TRUMP: “I would take carried interest out and I would let people that are making hundreds of millions of dollars a year pay some tax. Because right now they’re paying very little tax and I think it’s outrageous. I want to lower taxes for the middle class. I want to lower taxes for people that are making a lot of money, that need incentives.”

INTERVIEWER: “So that would affect not just hedge fund people, that would also affect people in limited real estate partnerships, of which you are in a fair number.”

TRUMP: “I’m okay. I’m okay.”

INTERVIEWER: “So you’re proposing that you would like to raise taxes on yourself.”

TRUMP: “That’s right. That’s right. I’m okay with it. I’m, you know, ready willing and – I mean, you see my statements, I mean I do very well. I don’t mind paying some tax. The middle class is getting clobbered in this country. You know, the middle class built this country, not the hedge fund guys. But, I know people in hedge funds, they pay almost nothing. And it’s ridiculous. Okay?”

28 August, 2015: Trump is interviewed for Bloomberg News

Trump believes the current tax code is needlessly complex, and is in favor of simplifying it. He also specifically rejects the notion of a flat tax.

DONALD TRUMP: “Here’s what I want to do: I want to simplify the tax code. I want to cut taxes, but I want to simplify the tax code. I want to make it great for the middle class. The middle class is being killed. I want to put H&R Block – it’s an ambition of mine to put H&R Block out of business. When a person has a simple tax return – they have a job, and they can’t even figure out when they look at this complicated form, they can’t figure out what to pay. And you know what, I have guys, that are friends of mine, they make a fortune, they’re hedge fund guys, they move around paper – look, at least, I build things, I put people to – these guys move around paper. And half the time it’s luck more than talent, okay? They pay peanuts. Okay? I want to make it so the middle class – I want to lower taxes, but I want to make it so the middle class benefits.”

SEAN HANNITY: “Do you believe in supply-side economics inasmuch as you reduce taxes on everybody, including the wealthy, and that a rising tide lifts all boats?”

TRUMP: “I don’t fully believe in it, but there is something to it. I don’t fully, you know, I’ve studied it…”

HANNITY: “But you don’t want a flat tax, you have said that.”

TRUMP: “I don’t like when everybody’s paying the same.”

HANNITY: “Do you like a Fair Tax?”

TRUMP: “If I make a billion dollars and somebody else is making a hundred, and he’s paying ten dollars, and I’m paying – to me, I don’t know. I like somewhat of a graduation. What you have now is a system that is too complicated. The easiest thing to do is make that system uncomplicated, and make it really good. Make it really good.”

12 August, 2015: Trump is interviewed by FOX News (03:39 – 05:00)
——————–
Donald Trump on Health Care
Trump wants to repeal and replace Obamacare with universal health care.

SCOTT PELLEY: What’s your plan for Obamacare?

DONALD TRUMP: Obamacare is going to be repealed and replaced. Obamacare’s a disaster. If you look at what’s going on with premiums where their up 45, 50, 55 percent….

PELLEY: So how do you fix it?

TRUMP: There’s many different ways by the way. Everybody’s got to be covered. This is an unrepublican thing for me to say because a lot of times they say no, no the lower 25 percent they can’t afford private but…

PELLEY: Universal health care?

TRUMP: I am going to take care of everybody. I don’t care if it costs me votes or not. Everybody’s going to be taken care of, much better than they’re taken care of now.

PELLEY: The uninsured person is going to be taken care of?

TRUMP: They’re going to be taken care of

PELLEY: How?

TRUMP: I would make a deal with existing hospitals to take care of people and you know what this is probably….

PELLEY: Make a deal? Who pays for it?

TRUMP: The governments going to pay for it but we’re going to save so much money on the other side. But for the most part it’s going to be a private plan and people are going to be able to go out and negotiate great plans with lots of different competition with lots of competitors with great companies and they can have their doctors they can have their plans they can have everything.
————————–
- This reply was modified 8 years, 6 months ago by wv.
March 9, 2016 at 7:00 am #40193

nittany ram
Moderator

bnw wrote:

nittany ram wrote:

bnw wrote:

nittany ram wrote:

What bothers me the most about Trump is how his racist rhetoric seems to attract voters instead of repel them. I mean, of course he attracts KKK members and white supremacists who wear their hatred on their sleeves and are only too proud to show it. But a larger segment of the population who harbor racist ideals but keep them hidden for the most part now they feel emboldened to openly cheer on his rhetoric. He’s empowered their bigotry which leads to events like the assaulting of people of color at his rallies. I think there’s a substantial segment of white people who are threatened and angered by what they perceive as the ‘browning’ of America and they see Trump as their white savior.

Throwing the racist and bigotry card around won’t work this time. The people are fed up. The two tiered justice system that doesn’t work for the average guy. The two tiered economy that only works for the top 1%. Campaign rhetoric to get elected then the reality of governance for the lobbyists. Under Obama black unemployment has doubled. Playing the race card is ridiculous given the state of the economy and the assault on liberty and personal privacy through never ending Homeland Security excuses. Government that refuses to obey its own laws while imprisoning its citizens at an alarming rate. The people are sick of the hypocrisy. Trump is seen as the candidate willing to right the ship of state.

Well, if mentioning a fact is playing a card, then I guess I’m playing a card. I’m not saying all Trump supporters are racist but being a Trump supporter means you have to support a candidate who espouses racist ideals. To some folks, I guess that doesn’t ‘trump’ his positions on other issues.

Bernie Sanders speaks out against all the things you just listed but he doesn’t attract racist supporters.

What racist ideals does Trump espouse? Ideals, not the projecting of your fear. Give these racist ideals substance. List them. Succinctly describe them. Then I’ll reply in kind to each description from this Trump supporters view. Drive byes are easy. Lets strive for better.

Well, this has all been covered quite extensively in the media. Here’s an example…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83

This has to be quick because I have to go to work but let’s look at the hateful rhetoric Trump spewed about Mexicans and other Latinos…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/9-outrageous-things-donald-trump-has-said-about-latinos_us_55e483a1e4b0c818f618904b

What he said is conclusively incorrect.

Mexicans are actually leaving the US at a higher rate than they’re entering it. And immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than US citizens.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/mexican-immigration-to-u-s-reverses-1447954334

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

March 9, 2016 at 2:53 pm #40230
bnw
Blocked
nittany ram wrote:

bnw wrote:

nittany ram wrote:

bnw wrote:

nittany ram wrote:

What bothers me the most about Trump is how his racist rhetoric seems to attract voters instead of repel them. I mean, of course he attracts KKK members and white supremacists who wear their hatred on their sleeves and are only too proud to show it. But a larger segment of the population who harbor racist ideals but keep them hidden for the most part now they feel emboldened to openly cheer on his rhetoric. He’s empowered their bigotry which leads to events like the assaulting of people of color at his rallies. I think there’s a substantial segment of white people who are threatened and angered by what they perceive as the ‘browning’ of America and they see Trump as their white savior.

Throwing the racist and bigotry card around won’t work this time. The people are fed up. The two tiered justice system that doesn’t work for the average guy. The two tiered economy that only works for the top 1%. Campaign rhetoric to get elected then the reality of governance for the lobbyists. Under Obama black unemployment has doubled. Playing the race card is ridiculous given the state of the economy and the assault on liberty and personal privacy through never ending Homeland Security excuses. Government that refuses to obey its own laws while imprisoning its citizens at an alarming rate. The people are sick of the hypocrisy. Trump is seen as the candidate willing to right the ship of state.

Well, if mentioning a fact is playing a card, then I guess I’m playing a card. I’m not saying all Trump supporters are racist but being a Trump supporter means you have to support a candidate who espouses racist ideals. To some folks, I guess that doesn’t ‘trump’ his positions on other issues.

Bernie Sanders speaks out against all the things you just listed but he doesn’t attract racist supporters.

What racist ideals does Trump espouse? Ideals, not the projecting of your fear. Give these racist ideals substance. List them. Succinctly describe them. Then I’ll reply in kind to each description from this Trump supporters view. Drive byes are easy. Lets strive for better.

Well, this has all been covered quite extensively in the media. Here’s an example…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83

This has to be quick because I have to go to work but let’s look at the hateful rhetoric Trump spewed about Mexicans and other Latinos…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/9-outrageous-things-donald-trump-has-said-about-latinos_us_55e483a1e4b0c818f618904b

What he said is conclusively incorrect.

Mexicans are actually leaving the US at a higher rate than they’re entering it. And immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than US citizens.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/mexican-immigration-to-u-s-reverses-1447954334

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

One thing the entire Left and Right media agree upon is Trump is bad. He’s not controlled by the Establishment comprised of both parties. He campaigns by stating that loud and clear. He gains great traction by it too. He represents real change. Real change as in a shake up of political patronage in DC. So the entire mind numbing apparatus of mainstream media and their shills and the lobbyist controlled elite of the Establishment have had no effect upon Trump for 8 months. In fact he only gains more support.

Huff hit piece-

Early 1970s- Renters lawsuit- that does smack of prejudice and for that time no doubt business as usual. Its also over 40 years ago. I’m sure rent control contributed to it.

KKK- Really? When so many things around government still bear the name the US senator from WV Robert Byrd a KKK member and supporter?

Birther- Nothing to do with race.

‘THE’ (add group)- Simple semantics not racism. He’s not polished in PC speak. Perhaps some coaching by Biden who noted Obama is “articulate and clean”.

Native American- Business not racist.

Central Park Five- Trump wasn’t alone. Statements by members of the Five admitted being there and taking part in the beating and rape. In the words of Dem frontrunner Hillary Clinton the “superpedators” should be “brought to heel”.

BLM protester- Trump said “maybe”.

homeless Latino man beating passionate- odd that the explanation in HuffPo cites “anti-immigration” when the perps said “all these illegals”. Trump correctly asserts americans are increasingly passionate about the issue of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

Stereotyped Jews- No not “Jews”, the REPUBLICAN JEWISH COALITION. From the HuffPo article the link only shows a short contentious piece of heckling from the crowd because Trump wouldn’t commit himself to a position on Jerusalem being an undivided capitol before speaking with the Prime Minister of Israel. It isn’t as if Trump went all Jesse Jackson who shouted “Hymie” and “Hymietown” at a synagogue.

The other HuffPo articles relate to Trump’s use of the term “Mexican” when the issue is “illegal immigration”. Since by far most illegals who cross the border with Mexico are Mexicans this PC gotcha speak gets play. Yet everyone knows he’s speaking about illegal immigrants not a nationality. Illegal immigrants are by definition criminals. Any crime from anyone that has no right to be here is too much.

I do not agree with everything Trump has said nor necessarily the manner in which he says it. But he is speaking about the real issues that divide the people from the actions of the Establishment. The people have had enough. Enough of the wars. Enough of trade deals that cost millions of american’s jobs. Enough of crumbling infrastructure. Enough of being held liable to laws that illegal immigrants and politicians are not. Enough of government by and for lobbyists. Enough of so much more but you get the idea. The people are demanding change. Palpable change.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 6 months ago by bnw.
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