Offensive Line

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  • #14659
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Anyone want to say anything about the
    Rams Offensive Line?
    Anyone want to talk about what,
    if anything, the
    Rams need to do about the OLine?

    Are we ALLLLL in agreement,
    they need a new Guard and Center?
    Yes? No?

    w
    v
    ———————————
    Ram43 reposting
    BonifayRam
    (on Barksdale)
    …JB has large holes in his game….. Very limited athleticism for a OT! Not much can he do about that. OT’s in todays NFL have to have a good amount of this stuff & fact is JB does not have enough. This lack of athleticism @ OT causes JB to be a step late at times which we have seen a ton of this season against the speeders. Bottom line here JB has a terrible time dealing with double-moves or edge rushers. This is the problem!

    The best about JB is he has proven UN breakable! Some other good is JB has the perfect frame & size for a ORT. JB is a very strong ORT. JB when he is effective uses his great strength to stop the bull rush in pass protection with ease. Another area of good stuff is his ability to get running room by walling off defenders also with ease. I also have seen JB staying home against stunts & stuff but Joseph usually fails to work well with JB in this area.

    I have no doubt that teaming Saffold with JB next season on that right side would result in a much positive turnout. But now you have a king size hole next to a STILL very young & not that experienced Greg Robinson who had had his worse game of the season last Sunday. Even Saffold could not help Robinson. Playing a rookie or a WWC next to Robinson would not be advisable either. If JB can not hold his own @ ORT then we need to look elsewhere ASAP.

    I thinking that it would be very wise to offer JB a nice One yr contract only. Buying the Rams some additional time in getting the OL back up to contention. I would NOT over pay JB period. If another team wants to overpay for JB then let it be so!

    #14664
    Avatar photoAgamemnon
    Participant

    1. La’el Collins OT
    2. Cameron Erving OT

    3. Sean Mannion QB

    5. LB
    7. LB

    A. Resign Barksdale, Britt, and Hill for a total of $10 million.
    B. Resign all our FAs/guys that we drafted. Not guys named Joseph and Wells.
    C. Only sign Value in the open FA market.

    Salary Cap:

    Estimate the salary cap to go up 5-6 million
    Waiting for credit on Finnegan – 3 million
    Protection for Bradford 5-6 million = ~7 million, plus incentive and an option year.

    cut Long ~9 million
    cut Wells ~4 million

    ———————————?~29 million for next year
    – ~10 million for our FAs
    = ~20 million left for Draft, RFas, XRFAs, IR, Practice Squad.
    = ~left 6-8 million for extending players or open FAs.

    Washington OLB Shaq Thompson, 6-2, 231, Jr., 4.56: Boasting terrific athleticism, instincts and awareness, Thompson has proven a standout wherever he’s played for the Huskies, earning him the Paul Hornung Award as the nation’s most versatile player. While perhaps not as stout as preferred, Thompson’s fluidity, reliable open-field tackling and big-play moxie could earn him a hybrid linebacker/safety role.

    Fisher might not pass on the next Bobby Wagoner. 😉 People might have trouble reading my writing. That is OK. I do too. I can edit out the confusing bits. 😉

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Avatar photoAgamemnon.
    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Avatar photoAgamemnon.

    Agamemnon

    #14668
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Anyone want to say anything about the
    Rams Offensive Line?
    Anyone want to talk about what,
    if anything, the
    Rams need to do about the OLine?

    Are we ALLLLL in agreement,
    they need a new Guard and Center?
    Yes? No?

    w
    v
    ———————————
    Ram43 reposting
    BonifayRam
    (on Barksdale)
    …JB has large holes in his game….. Very limited athleticism for a OT! Not much can he do about that. OT’s in todays NFL have to have a good amount of this stuff & fact is JB does not have enough. This lack of athleticism @ OT causes JB to be a step late at times which we have seen a ton of this season against the speeders. Bottom line here JB has a terrible time dealing with double-moves or edge rushers. This is the problem!

    The best about JB is he has proven UN breakable! Some other good is JB has the perfect frame & size for a ORT. JB is a very strong ORT. JB when he is effective uses his great strength to stop the bull rush in pass protection with ease. Another area of good stuff is his ability to get running room by walling off defenders also with ease. I also have seen JB staying home against stunts & stuff but Joseph usually fails to work well with JB in this area.

    I have no doubt that teaming Saffold with JB next season on that right side would result in a much positive turnout. But now you have a king size hole next to a STILL very young & not that experienced Greg Robinson who had had his worse game of the season last Sunday. Even Saffold could not help Robinson. Playing a rookie or a WWC next to Robinson would not be advisable either. If JB can not hold his own @ ORT then we need to look elsewhere ASAP.

    I thinking that it would be very wise to offer JB a nice One yr contract only. Buying the Rams some additional time in getting the OL back up to contention. I would NOT over pay JB period. If another team wants to overpay for JB then let it be so!

    Yeah I want to say one thing about the OL, or rather OL discussions. Invariably, I read “tape” guys who focus on the play of individual players and then assume that adds up to a coherent picture. It doesn’t. It is genuinely true that OLs are more than the sum of their parts.

    For example, if you just look at Barksdale, he played well for all of 2013 and approximately half of 2014. Now did he get “exposed”?

    I doubt it.

    I think like most ROTs he plays better when the OL is coherent as a unit. Which is why, for example, the Rams OL was fine in the 2nd half of 2012 even though their ROT, Richardson, had never played well before in any season in his career.

    The issues with the 2014 OL, to my eye, are a rookie + banged up players and injuries. Long goes out, moving Robinson to LOT (which means a rookie LOT), and Saffold is not full strength, neither is Wells, and Joseph is playing because Robinson moved to tackle. Meanwhile Jones had back surgery over the summer and could not lift because of it–he himself says he has to get back in shape in the off-season.

    What about 2015? Yes they need a guard and a center and quite probably a 3rd OT.

    That;s not that hard to do. I think they will do it through their “all markets” approach…getting guys in every way it is possible to get them. I see this as completely fixable.

    #14674
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    even if it is barksdale i think the rams would be best served by re-signing him. he knows the offense. then they can get a guy like cameron erving who could either play inside or go outside if barksdale continues struggling with barksdale moving inside to guard. now i’m not sure if he can play guard but i would think that he could.

    the line needs some continuity rather than just throwing a bunch of new players at it.

    #14683
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    even if it is barksdale i think the rams would be best served by re-signing him. he knows the offense. then they can get a guy like cameron erving who could either play inside or go outside if barksdale continues struggling with barksdale moving inside to guard. now i’m not sure if he can play guard but i would think that he could.

    the line needs some continuity rather than just throwing a bunch of new players at it.

    I would throw new players at it.
    Healthy players 🙂

    w
    v

    #14697
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    Offensive Linemen on current roster

    Starters
    LT Greg Robinson — The second overall pick in this past draft. He is expected to be the Rams starter at LT for at least the next decade. He is very young and very raw but also a great talent. Expect him to become the solid LT in his second year that some fans mistakenly expected him to be this year.

    LG Rodger Saffold — Rodger has had a history of injuries but has come back and played in all 16 games this season (missing only parts of two games) despite having shoulder problems. A very tough individual. He will have surgery this off season to correct his shoulder.

    C Scott Wells — Wells redid his contract before this season. The contract calls for $1.75M roster bonus in early March. He will not see that money.

    RG Davin Joseph — Joseph was signed to a one year contract by the Rams as a backup after last year’s draft. He was forced into the starter’s job after Jake Long went down. He probably will not be returning unless it would be as a backup. And probably not then.

    RT Joe Barksdale — the Rams starter at RT for the last two years. He is fairly solid but will never be all-pro. He is also an UFA. Look for the Rams to try to resign him at their price.

    Primary Backups (according to ourlads)
    LT, LG, RG Mike Person
    C Tim Barnes
    RT, LT Brandon Washington
    C, G Barrett Jones

    There will be two (maybe three if Barksdale is not resigned) starting positions available. Look for at least one, and maybe two or even three, of these positions to be filled by the four players listed above. Fisher’s 20 year history is to draft OL low and develop them. Just as Barksdale got his shot as a starter, these four have been warming the bench waiting their turn. And they have been working in the training room, film room, the classroom, and on the practice field. For one or two of them their work may pay off and their turn may have just arrived.

    Others
    C Demetrius Rhaney (IR) 2014 Round 7.
    OT Steven Baker (Practice Squad)
    OG Travis Bond (Practice Squad)

    It is likely that these three will be on the Rams 80 man roster at the beginning of training camp. They will be given a chance to make the 53 man roster but I would think it would be very unlikely that they could earn a starting role in 2015.

    Free Agents and the draft
    A year ago I would have said it would be very unlikely the Rams would draft an OL early in the draft. But they did and tried to draft another. So it could well be that they would draft a guard or tackle in the one of the first two rounds. If Barksdale is resigned it would be someone who could start at guard the first year. I could see the Rams entering free agency for a starting OL if they feel that they do not already have one of the positions filled. I know what the fans want, but I think Snead and Fisher will probably have other ideas. But I also think that OL will be one of their highest priorities.

    #14698
    Avatar photoAgamemnon
    Participant

    That looks like it covers everything, except Person is a FA next year like Barksdale.

    Agamemnon

    #14700
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well I wonder if Roger Saffold will be able to
    lift and train in the offseason if he’s
    going to have surgery.

    w
    v

    #14702
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Others
    C Demetrius Rhaney (IR) 2014 Round 7.
    OT Steven Baker (Practice Squad)
    OG Travis Bond (Practice Squad)

    It is likely that these three will be on the Rams 80 man roster at the beginning of training camp. They will be given a chance to make the 53 man roster but I would think it would be very unlikely that they could earn a starting role in 2015.

    Good post TD.

    As for what I quote…Bond was getting some buzz last summer. Rhaney, too, though he was seen as more raw. Bond was not a draft pick or a UDFA…he was a young ronin, a bounce-around player without a team, same as Mike Person (Bond was with the Vikes and Panthers in 2013). Boudreau has made good use of that type before before (for example, Barksdale). I agree that IF Bond and Rhaney stick around, it won’t be as starters but as depth.

    I also agree that it’s probably not likely that they would sign a high-market FA for the OL. More of a reclamation guy and/or another young ronin.

    #14703
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    That looks like it covers everything, except Person is a FA next year like Barksdale.

    True, but my guess is that if the Rams want him back they can sign him. He will not be a big ticket player.

    #14704
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    Well I wonder if Roger Saffold will be able to
    lift and train in the offseason if he’s
    going to have surgery.

    I think it will be minor surgery. Kinda a scope job on his shoulder, nothing like an ACL type thing. He can have the surgery in a couple of weeks and be ready to go in a month or so. At least conditioning stuff. No worries.

    #14735
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    wv wrote:
    Well I wonder if Roger Saffold will be able to
    lift and train in the offseason if he’s
    going to have surgery.

    I think it will be minor surgery. Kinda a scope job on his shoulder, nothing like an ACL type thing. He can have the surgery in a couple of weeks and be ready to go in a month or so. At least conditioning stuff. No worries.

    Why do you think that? Is that a hunch, or did you read something I missed?

    #14737
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I think it will be minor surgery. Kinda a scope job on his shoulder, nothing like an ACL type thing. He can have the surgery in a couple of weeks and be ready to go in a month or so. At least conditioning stuff. No worries.

    Why do you think that? Is that a hunch, or did you read something I missed?

    I am not TD, and I haven’t even played TD on tv, but I read around on it real quick just now. Based on what I read, Shoulder dislocations can lead to labrum tears, and the surgery on that has been perfected. It is true that the player has less risk of recurrence than with an ACL and that it takes less time to rehab. It can be 3-6 months from surgery to full participation. If he has the surgery in January, then, that means he’s back 100% somewhere from March to June. It would be before camp at the latest.

    http://www.stlouisrams.com/fans/health-and-wellness/shoulder-dislocation.html

    Surgery is recommended for the player who experiences multiple dislocations or who chooses to undergo surgical stabilization following the first episode. Historically, surgical repair was done through an open incision. Now, this procedure is most commonly performed arthroscopically. The labrum that is torn is repaired back to the bone socket using a variety of either metal or plastic anchors in order to reestablish stability of the joint. Following surgery, the athlete is kept in a sling for four to six weeks. Physical therapy is prescribed to regain shoulder motion, strength, and return to football-related activities. …. The success rate of surgical repair of a dislocated shoulder is reliably greater than 90%. This success is defined as no further episodes of instability with the ability to resume strenuous activity.

    http://www.uwbadgers.com/genrel/051910aac.html

    How long? After surgery to repair a torn labrum, a rehabilitation program can take several months to return the athlete to 100 percent. Depending on the sport and the severity of the injury, it may take anywhere from three to six months to bring the athlete back to full participation.

    Rehab? Recovery from this surgery requires a lot of patience. The athlete will take as much as eight weeks to regain their full range of motion. Return of full strength may take another four to eight weeks after that. During the rehab, it is important to limit several motions of the arm in order to prevent the labrum from being re-torn. During the early stages of rehab, it is important to keep the muscles of the shoulder in shape without actually moving the arm.

    #14739
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    Thanks ZN.

    I got my information from an interview of Saffold where he said he would have his shoulder scoped after the season. He said it mater of factly as though it would be almost nothing. What you (zn) found supports that. And you can see why he did not to do it if he could get by through the season. He missed parts of two games if my memory serves me correctly. Had he had the surgery it would have been half of the season. And the sucess rate you quoted sounds very couraging. 90% is a good number for something like that.

    #15000
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Just some speculations.

    Barksdale kind of fell off in 2014. But my bet is, you can map his fading in conjunction with losing Long and Saffold getting hurt.

    As many here have said, including notably RFL, no lineman can stand out and play well if the rest of the line is subpar. Everything about football teaches you that the OL is a sum, not parts. It is next to impossible for one player to stand out and be consistent when the rest of the line is struggling.

    In the 2nd half of the season, Barksdale was the ROT on a line with a rookie LOT who was supposed to be a guard, an injured Saffold who was playing hurt, a banged up Wells, and Joseph–who was never supposed to start.

    So I bet they try to keep JB, and count on a return to form. Letting him walk would just mean you have to replace 3 linemen, not 2. That doesn’t fix things, it makes them worse. And IMO there is no way in hell the Rams are going to start 3 rookie linemen together with a 2nd year Robinson. You might as well just light a giant bonfire and burn the entire season down in advance.

    So my bet is that they make every effort to sign him. I also bet that typical of most signings of this kind, he will get more or less what the avg. is for starters at his position in their 2nd contract.

    If as I expect they do sign JB, and replace the center and one guard, then the line as a whole will be fine and JB will return to form.

    #15003
    TackleDummy
    Participant

    I really hope so. Robinson and Saffold will be back next year. But most people expect Long, Wells and Joseph to be gone. If Barksdale leaves then that makes three holes to fill on the OL. It would be a lot to ask of the Rams to have to come up with that many new starters on the OL.

    Right now the Rams could start Robinson, Person, Jones, Saffold, and Barksdale with existing personel. If they add a high level draft choice and a FA that would give them their 7 game day OL players. The draft choice might start the second half of the season. The FA may or may not be a starter.

    #15014
    JackPMiller
    Participant

    I want Barksdale back. I feel it might be better to move Saffold to RG, and look for an LG in Free Agency, and hope for Barnes or Jones can take over at Center nextyear.

    #15016
    Isiah58
    Participant

    I think you make a good point. JB was not the same when Saffold moved from right to left guard. I think except for the Kansas City melt down, Barksdale was serviceable and I think he can still get better. The more continuity they can preserve, the better.

    “Marge, don't discourage the boy! Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel.” - Homer Simpson

    #15101
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Jake Long at guard?

    Silly idea? A possibly Good idea?
    Any reason to think he
    can still play football
    at any position?

    w
    v

    #15103
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Silly idea? A possibly Good idea?
    Any reason to think he
    can still play football
    at any position?

    w
    v

    Doesn’t sound likely to me. Maybe ROT. IF he can even play.

    #15104
    Dak
    Participant

    I do wonder if the Rams think Long is in their plans in 2015. I tend to believe the Jake Long Era has ended.

    #15105
    Avatar photoAgamemnon
    Participant

    I expect him to retire.

    Agamemnon

    #15106
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well what can we say about the Jake Long
    experiment, to this point ?

    Snisher’s biggest mistake?

    Seemed like Jake would have some
    good games and then a gawdawful one.
    Just didnt have the speed and balance
    anymore, it seemed, what with the
    injuries and all.

    Should they have known better?

    w
    v

    #15108
    Avatar photoAgamemnon
    Participant

    Well what can we say about the Jake Long
    experiment, to this point ?

    Snisher’s biggest mistake?

    Seemed like Jake would have some
    good games and then a gawdawful one.
    Just didnt have the speed and balance
    anymore, it seemed, what with the
    injuries and all.

    Should they have known better?

    w
    v

    It was a gamble. A lot of decisions are probabilities. I think it was the best play the Rams had at that time. Whether it works out or not has to be factored in before you make the play. Then you hope things go your way. If it was a good bet, it goes your way often enough to pay off. If it doesn’t work out, doesn’t always mean it was a bad bet, or visa versa, a good bet. In Long’s case, it was the best bet that they had to make. They sort had to make it and hope it worked out. There was no other play close and they could afford it. imo

    Agamemnon

    #15109
    Winnbrad
    Participant

    It was a gamble. A lot of decisions are probabilities. I think it was the best play the Rams had at that time. Whether it works out or not has to be factored in before you make the play. Then you hope things go your way. If it was a good bet, it goes your way often enough to pay off. If it doesn’t work out, doesn’t always mean it was a bad bet, or visa versa, a good bet. In Long’s case, it was the best bet that they had to make. They sort had to make it and hope it worked out. There was no other play close and they could afford it.

    Yeah, I agree. I think it was one of Snisher’s “win now” moves. They could afford it, and it was the teams best shot at getting (what they hoped would be) a high quality LT.

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Avatar photozn.
    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Avatar photozn.
    #15111
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    When he was at his best, Long was a good play-action LOT. He could run block at a highly effective level and pass block well enough to get by (IF they were a play-action team. They weren’t nearly as effective pass-blocking with him when they were trying their mis-born “spread with no veteran receivers plus an ineffective Richardson at RB” offense.)

    #15117
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Yeah, I agree. I think it was one of Snisher’s “win now” moves. They could afford it, and it was the teams best shot at getting (what they hoped would be) a high quality LT.

    =============================================================================

    Well i guess there wouldnt-a-bin a JakeLong
    if there hadnt-a-bin a Jason Smith.

    w
    v
    1 Jason Smith T
    2009 2 35 James Laurinaitis LB
    2009 3 66 Bradley Fletcher DB
    2009 4 103 Darell Scott DT
    2009 5 160 Brooks Foster

    2009 6 196 Keith Null QB
    2009 7 211 Chris Ogbonnaya

    #15124
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Well i guess there wouldnt-a-bin a JakeLong
    if there hadnt-a-bin a Jason Smith.

    w
    v

    And there wouldn’t have been a Jason Smith if there hadn’t been an Alex Barron.

    #15126
    Dak
    Participant

    I didn’t like the Jake Long signing much, because it seemed obvious that he came with a lot of wear and it seemed likely he was on the downswing of his career. I wish he proved me wrong.

    I thought Saffold was fine at LT, even if he was an injury risk, too. I don’t know what else the team could have done … maybe concentrated on getting a free agent guard. Drafted an LT earlier. There were some other options.

    #15128
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    wv wrote:
    Well i guess there wouldnt-a-bin a JakeLong
    if there hadnt-a-bin a Jason Smith.

    w
    v

    And there wouldn’t have been a Jason Smith if there hadn’t been an Alex Barron.

    Connectshuns go back to the
    big bang. Further even,
    maybe.

    w
    v

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