This President has got to go

I agree. I’d vote for a pile of dog poop over Trump. I would be scared if Trump is re-elected. Not sure if we can survive another four years of Trump.

zn wrote:

So you don’t have to worry about people here making an “ideological choice” against a guy they otherwise know to be a solid candidate. Far from it. That is not what’s happening.

…

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I think Biden can beat Trump. It would be very close. Biden has the backing of the National-Security-State and all the usual Banks and Corporations and various parts of the Corporate-Capitalist Death-Machine. Absolutely, he can win. He just needs a few more votes than his counterpart, Hillary. And he should get them, if more Blacks turn out this time.

His Mental Deterioration will not bother Older voters, i dont think. Heck they might find it endearing, the way voters found Bush’s stupidity endearing.

If he does lose, it will be because Progressives just couldnt vote for another mass-murderer. 🙂 Will Progressives vote for him in numbers? He’s already giving lip-service to progressives and bernie etc. Biden’s people know who they need. I ‘think’ enough progressives will vote for him that he will win. (I wont be voting for a mass-murderer myself, but blah blah blah)

So, yeah Biden will beat Trump, I think.

I also think Bernie could beat Trump. But Biden will be the nominee now as we all know.

Centrists can label a vote a “statement” vote whatever that means, but thats just the centrist-mindset at work. I vote my conscience. I wont vote for a mass-murderer. Biden was part of Obama’s Drone-murder scheme, etc. Either murder matters or it doesnt.

w
v

With leaders from all over the world focusing on the safety of their citizens, in connection with the coronavirus, our “leader” is focusing solely on his own political survival.

Just curious, do you think the timely drop outs from Mayor Pete, Amy K, Money Bags Bloomberg, were for political survival or for the safety of citizens?

1) Change Management 101: Most people will not change their behavioral patterns unless they experience PAIN…..

Perhaps another 4 years of Trump is the pain that this country needs to finally change behaviors to be better informed of the actual issues and vote for candidates that actually support their beliefs, needs, and wants instead of propping up status quo losers like Dukakis, Mondale, HRC, etc….

2 or 3 more Kavanaugh clones in the SCOTUS is going to be very painful, but that might be what it takes to get people to finally wake up.

Most people want health care
Most people agree in a women’s right to choose
Most people are OK with reduction in military spending.
Most people are OK with corporations paying their fair share of taxes…

Vote for candidates that support your beliefs.

Right now, there’s 8 minutes left in the game, KC is losing to SF and has a 98% chance of losing the Super Bowl. Bernie ain’t Mahomes, but Biden is pretty far from being coach Shanahan. Bernie has better odds of beating Biden than KC did in beating SF this late in the game.

Let the debates play out and let’s finish the game. Vote for the best candidate.

If Biden wins and Bernie runs as a 3rd candidate to compete, vote for the candidate that best supports your beliefs, your needs and what is best for your country.

Well, I gotta tweak that last part.

I don’t think that’s the ethos of MOST Americans. Most of us are fine with sharing stuff and we don’t want to be Napoleon or Caesar. It’s just the underlying message sent down to us from Above, cuz that’s basically the only way to keep the capitalist ball rolling, or avoid mass unrest. It’s a kinda philosophical cover for the essentially sociopathic nature of economic conquest, which is really about the only thing “America” can claim for itself. Our “exceptionalism” stems from that, more than anything else.

That so many Americans buy into being used and abused by the ruling class, and seem okay with sociopaths . . . electing them more often than not . . .

I may be wrong, but I’d bet we’re “exceptional” in celebrating and romanticizing the people who oppress us to this degree, and we don’t want to even think how different they are from we the people.

We’re in for a very bumpy ride, folks. Perhaps us old fogies, especially, in an immediate sense.

waterfield wrote:

waterfield wrote:

zn wrote:

I do believe Sanders would beat Trump and all the polls back it.

For a thousand reasons, I don’t think Biden has ANY chance of beating Trump.

My only response to that is in the last primaries, including Super Tuesday, and most recently, last week, including the state that gave Trump the Presidency-Michigan-the voters overwhelmingly disagreed with you and apparently the polls you referenced. Why?

And why-if you are so SURE Sanders would be the one who could beat Trump- would Yang, Bloomberg, Amy, Pete, Tim, all endorse Biden? And why would Warren not endorse Sanders ?

Obviously, I can’t speak for ZN. But I can answer that one easily, from my own POV:

The Dems see Sanders as a bigger threat to their own status/status quo than Trump and the GOP. They’d rather Trump and the GOP win than Sanders or any leftist. And this is what happens when two governing parties are owned by the super rich, run by and for the super rich, and owe their allegiance, not to us, but to the super rich.

And the really sad part about this? Sanders is proposing FDR-like programs. Nothing “radical.” In fact, from my POV, he’s waaaay shy of going anywhere close to far enough. As in, we don’t need Denmark on the Potomac to fix what ails this world — though it would be a huge improvement over our current situation. We need a wholesale, uber-radical shift away from the obscene immorality of capitalism and its entire rationale for being . . . We need to end the very idea of an economy based on private profit for the few. We need to shift, instead, to fully sustainable and citizen-centric model that meets our needs, leaves no one behind, and has no profit incentive whatsoever. Cuz that motive set free is what’s killing the earth and has always been the major cause of wars.

No more exchange-value. It needs to be use-value instead. Extend democracy to include the economy, democratize the workplace, and we the people, not “the state,” not political parties, not any private power, own the means of production, with equal say and equal shares.

To me, that’s our only hope of surviving as a species into the 22nd century.

Billy_T wrote:

And why-if you are so SURE Sanders would be the one who could beat Trump- would Yang, Bloomberg, Amy, Pete, Tim, all endorse Biden? And why would Warren not endorse Sanders ?

Obviously, I can’t speak for ZN. But I can answer that one easily, from my own POV:

The Dems see Sanders as a bigger threat to their own status/status quo than Trump and the GOP.

BT is just exactly right. And btw the source of believing Sanders would beat Trump is not my personal beliefs. It’s basically every single poll about which Dem would beat Trump. That’s not me talking. That’s every single poll I’ve seen.

Anyway why would those wishy-washy right-centrist pro-corporate Dems you name back another one of their own? Cause he’s another one of their own.

Just consult your own feelings about Sanders. You apparently see him as this crazy radical. So do they.

Meanwhile no one who backs Sanders–and it’s an amazingly large number–thinks he is radical. That’s just ordinary everyday FDR New Deal style social democracy of a kind that works everywhere it’s used.

But the corporate world that owns the Dems part naturally sees him as a threat. Of course they do. He would cut back a lot of their power.

Here’s an example of how this works. Do you know the profiles of the superdelegates that basically would determine the candidate in a brokered election? A high proportion of them are professional paid lobbyists who work for big oil, private insusurance, and so on.

Naturally THEY see Sanders as radical cause he threatens the basis of their power.

And so do those sub-candidates you listed for me. They too see Sanders as a threat to the lobbyist-dominated Dem party. It’s who and what they are.

….

ZN,

Thanks for rescuing my post from Purgatory.

;>)

Hope everyone is healthy and safe.

Wash your hands, people!!

Here is the Krystal Ball bit in full that expresses the attitude of the Left these days, what I was talking about up above. (wv’s Jimmy Dore video makes the same point, but in a meandering, 20 minute version). The Left came out and voted for Hillary in 2016, and got scapegoated for her loss as a reward. The Left is not in the mood for that anymore. As Krystal Ball notes, if Biden loses, we are going to get blamed anyway, just like last time. And every time we support another loser like Gore, Kerry, Hillary, Biden…what do we get for our vote, exactly? What do we get?

We get…”Hey, the other guy is worse.”

That’s what we get. That is the SOLE extent of the entire reward package the Democrats lavish on us.

People are pissed now. And I think you absolutely WILL see a decrease in Leftist turnout for Biden this time.

I’m sorry. As Ball says, if you think we always have to pick a “safe” candidate who will appeal to moderates…go right ahead. Just look how well that has worked out for you in the past. Democrats are CHOOSING to play to the “middle” (whatever THAT is supposed to even mean) because they think that is the Smart Play.

It’s not. It’s NOT the smart play if you want to win. Look at how many times your Safe Play has lost. Tell me why you think that’s a good strategy, playing it towards the middle. Obama broke through because he spoke the language of progressive (though nobody on this board was fooled for even a second because we were sharing the opensecrets information on where his financing was coming from), and he got black voters to turn out. That was what put him over – voter turnout.

And – clearly – the vigorous voter turnout is on Sanders’ side. ALL the polls show him beating Trump by a wider margin than any other candidate, and the Democrats rally everybody to support Biden, and get the compliant liberal media to echo the talking point – “Biden is the more electable.” We know that isn’t true. It’s false. Polls tell us it is false. But we’ve been told for so long, so many times that we have to put up someone from the conservative wing of the party if we want to win. Consequence: Loss after Loss after Loss.

This is because the DNC would rather lose to Trump than win with Sanders. THEY are to blame for this. The media will blame the Left. And THIS time they will at least most likely have evidence that supports that. And when the DNC actually BELIEVES that the Left cost them the election, maybe THEN it will start to do something about it.

This also contains the critique of Sanders from the Left. Like I said elsewhere, I think he is the wrong messenger for the right message, and looks like my fiance agrees with me.

Zooey wrote:

People are pissed now. And I think you absolutely WILL see a decrease in Leftist turnout for Biden this time….

….
….This is because the DNC would rather lose to Trump than win with Sanders. THEY are to blame for this. The media will blame the Left. And THIS time they will at least most likely have evidence that supports that. And when the DNC actually BELIEVES that the Left cost them the election, maybe THEN it will start to do something about it.

==================

Well, ok, but we (leftists) have been down this road over and over and over. None of this is new, as you know.

So, what…exactly…should…leftist VOTERS do with their VOTES. (I am not asking about what they should be doing with the other 364 days of the year…)

I am basically asking, why shouldnt all the leftists get together and say “fuck the democrats” lets vote for the Green Party. And keep voting Green UNTIL the Dems give us SOMETHING. Some crumbs. Some Policies. SOMETHING.

I know it would mean Reps would be elected. I get that. But it would also mean, eventually the Dems would HAVE to come to the table with SOMETHING.
Unlike now.

The argument I always here is (as you know) Trump is just TOO Awful to consider, blah blah blah.

Problem with that is i heard the same thing about Bush. Its always the same argument.

How long do leftists play a LOSING game? Same Old Sorry ASS Lesser-Evil Game.

I think its worth playing — ONLY IF — the left actually gets SOMETHING> Thats how coalitions work in Europe.

w
v

Billy_T wrote:

Worst possible president at potentially the worst possible time.

Merkel recently told Germans that 70% of their country could catch the virus. Its lethality rate hasn’t been determined yet, but the usual estimates are somewhere between 1-4% of those who contract it. If just a quarter of Americans catch it, we could be looking at well over a million fatalities here.

Trump has lied about all of this from Day One, seeing it as a crisis for himself, his reelection, Wall Street and Corporate America, not as a public health crisis. He isn’t even trying to hide this, except in his scripted speeches, and even in those, he keeps lying about the science.

At this point, I almost don’t care who the Dem nominee is. They could run a ham sandwich and the nation would be better off, if the ham sandwich beats Trump. We won’t be proactively better off, of course. It’s a matter of “less damage.” But I prefer that to more damage.

Regardless, this is really one of those proverbial “chickens coming home to roost” moments. The deadly combo of capitalism and right-wing ideology, weaponized by both major parties, has left us largely without the tools we need to cope with this. Centuries of gaslighting about its supposed wonders, while it’s worked to destroy our capacity to act collectively to solve the crises it (capitalism and wingnuttery) creates.

We’re hollowed out. We’re gutted. Our Commons is in tatters. But our ethos remains “I got mine, go fuck yourself!!”

At a moment when we need to do a 180° on that ethos, etc. etc.

Italy 2.6%
China 3.5%
Iran 10.6%

USA is currently at 2.7% We’ve only conducted 7000 tests TOTAL in the entire US thus far.

We have ZERO handle on this, Drs are SCREAMING about symptomatic patients not being able to get tested and NO ONE knowing what to do if they clearly have COVID.

It is entirely possible using the 70% threshold and just Iran’s numbers (ours could be substantially worse considering the federal and state responses), we’re looking at potentially 24.4M DEAD.

In order for us to remain at 2.7%, we’d need to RADICALLY shift the entire healthcare system to addressing this as they did in Italy and China.

But we won’t. Which is why so many are gonna die.

If you look at what this looks like for countries that are ahead of us in this by a few weeks, it’s literally the stuff of nightmares.

That’s it. Nightmares.

wv wrote:

Zooey wrote:

People are pissed now. And I think you absolutely WILL see a decrease in Leftist turnout for Biden this time….

….
….This is because the DNC would rather lose to Trump than win with Sanders. THEY are to blame for this. The media will blame the Left. And THIS time they will at least most likely have evidence that supports that. And when the DNC actually BELIEVES that the Left cost them the election, maybe THEN it will start to do something about it.

==================

Well, ok, but we (leftists) have been down this road over and over and over. None of this is new, as you know.

So, what…exactly…should…leftist VOTERS do with their VOTES. (I am not asking about what they should be doing with the other 364 days of the year…)

I am basically asking, why shouldnt all the leftists get together and say “fuck the democrats” lets vote for the Green Party. And keep voting Green UNTIL the Dems give us SOMETHING. Some crumbs. Some Policies. SOMETHING.

I know it would mean Reps would be elected. I get that. But it would also mean, eventually the Dems would HAVE to come to the table with SOMETHING.
Unlike now.

The argument I always here is (as you know) Trump is just TOO Awful to consider, blah blah blah.

Problem with that is i heard the same thing about Bush. Its always the same argument.

How long do leftists play a LOSING game? Same Old Sorry ASS Lesser-Evil Game.

I think its worth playing — ONLY IF — the left actually gets SOMETHING> Thats how coalitions work in Europe.

w
v

Forming an actual progressive if not fully left third party. Not sure if it should be the Progressive Party, the People’s Party or something else. It’s worth the effort because the Dems will NEVER give an inch to the left or even move back just to the center. They’re a center right corporate neolib neocon party and as long as they have corporate backers so that they don’t have to answer to the people, they won’t.

Hope all is well, Mac.

. . . .

I think the future for leftists may well be the DSA, if they can grow, get stronger and run candidates under their own banner. For me, unless I misread the Greens, the DSA comes closer to my views, cuz they want an end to capitalism and the Greens really don’t. Again, I could be wrong, but the Greens strike me as mend it don’t end it progressives, with strong antiwar and save the planet views. The latter two aspects are golden. I stand with them 100% on both. But I also want to replace economic apartheid with economic democracy.

Not sure if that’s the Greens’ agenda.

I bumped into this article today, which I think Zooey may have posted here before. It was a part of a review of a book by Malcolm Harris that I definitely want to read. If I post both links, however, I’ll probably go into Purgatory, so I’ll just do the Nathan Robinson one. The Harris book was reviewed in the New Republic, which surprises me every now and then.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/06/the-difference-between-liberalism-and-leftism

Excerpt:

The core divergence in these worldviews is in their beliefs about the nature of contemporary political and economic institutions. The difference here is not “how quickly these institutions should change,” but whether changes to them should be fundamental structural changes or not. The leftist sees capitalism as a horror, and believes that so long as money and profit rule the earth, human beings will be made miserable and will destroy themselves. The liberal does not actually believe this. Rather, the liberal believes that while there are problems with capitalism, it can be salvaged if given a few tweaks here and there. As Nancy Pelosi said of the present Democratic party: “We’re capitalist.” When Bernie Sanders is asked if he is a capitalist, he answers flatly: “No.” Sanders is a socialist, and socialism is not capitalism, and there is no possibility of healing the ideological rift between the two. Liberals believe that the economic and political system is a machine that has broken down and needs fixing. Leftists believe that the machine is not “broken.” Rather, it is working perfectly well; the problem is that it is a death machine designed to chew up human lives. You don’t fix the death machine, you smash it to bits.

Mackeyser wrote:

Italy 2.6%
China 3.5%
Iran 10.6%

USA is currently at 2.7% We’ve only conducted 7000 tests TOTAL in the entire US thus far.

We have ZERO handle on this, Drs are SCREAMING about symptomatic patients not being able to get tested and NO ONE knowing what to do if they clearly have COVID.

It is entirely possible using the 70% threshold and just Iran’s numbers (ours could be substantially worse considering the federal and state responses), we’re looking at potentially 24.4M DEAD.

As bad as Trump’s gov’t is handling the covid crisis, I think it’s unwise to think even 1 million people die in the US from Covid.

The country is taking the virus seriously now with schools, sports, and events being cancelled. Even though our system is incredibly screwed up because of Trump, there’s still lots of professionals who will do a good job. The US probably won’t come close to doing as good as Germany and South Korea. But Germany has 4,000 cases and 8 deaths. Yes EIGHT!

So this virus is hardly the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic where millions died.

And you can bet that Trump will be crowing about how well he managed the crisis.