Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Should the left reassess its relationship to the Establishment?
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wv.
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October 19, 2019 at 11:35 am #106927
Billy_TParticipantObviously, by “the left,” I don’t mean some monolithic “thing.” I’m biased in its favor, but I’d bet no part of the political spectrum comes close to its diversity, which is a definite strength. So I’m generalizing, of course, to try to save time and space, and as we learned in Animal House, millions of lives.
. . .
With that in mind, I’ll throw out the question: Is it time, or long past time, for the left to take a different route, a different strategy, when it comes to effecting actual positive change in the world?
I’m guilty of “tuning out” for most of my adult life, in the sense of wanting nothing to do with that establishment. I didn’t want to rise up through the ranks of any corporation. I had no desire to monetize my art. Nor did I desire political power, even though I desperately want and wanted a radically different world. I’m pretty much “naturally” anti-establishment, and always have been . . . Well, at least after a brief fling, at the age of 10 and 11, with visions of being a new Caesar.
In short, I’m not a living example of what that different route might be. But it does make me think about a ton of what ifs. What if I had tried to achieve some forms of power, in the corporate or “state” realm? What if I really had gone inside the belly of the beast to add good bacteria to counter all the bad?
We leftists complain, and rightly so, about the lack of representation in our politics, media, the corporate world, the empire in general. But isn’t a lot of that due to our own, perhaps unconscious, boycott of those spaces? Haven’t we, in effect, created that lack by our own refusal to join the establishment fray?
In no way am I suggesting a capitulation, or complicity, or “selling out” in any way, shape or form. I’m wondering if the left could actually alter the great imbalance in key societal sectors . . . the military, the police, the Intel community, the state department, corporate America, even professional sports . . . . I’m wondering if we stopped concentrating ourselves in fields like Academia, social work, the arts, spread out from there, formed our own corporations and media, under our own moral, ethical precepts . . . . ventured into state, local and national politics, went toe to toe with the Borg . . . could we not end our own marginalization?
IOW, how much of that marginalization is self-imposed? How much of that is baked into “the system”? And how much is reversible?
Would appreciate your thoughts on the above . . .
October 19, 2019 at 5:40 pm #106943
wvParticipantWell, for starters, I dont think there’s enough of a ‘left’ anymore to make a difference. I’d say 95 percent or so, of the adult-citizenry is Mainstream-Dem or something to the Right of ‘that.’ So I just dont think we have the numbers, Billy. All you have to do is count the votes to prove that — how many votes do the third-parties get? No-one is twisting anyone’s arm to vote for the Obamas, Clintons, Etc, etc, etc all the way back to World War II.
Europe has a left. We dont.
Having said that, lets say our small numbers wanted to ‘make a difference’ by joining the ‘establishment’ — how would that work? I mean think of the Media. Go get a job with the Wash Post, NYT, NPR, MSNBC, etc. How long do you think you would last BT? Hedges and Taibbi talked about this in the Vids.
What if you joined the Military — how could you make a difference? What are you gonna do, tell the generals they are part of a Racket? Are you gonna pass out Howard Zinn books? What could a leftist do?
What would you do exactly if you joined Monsanto?Join the establishment — and you will regret it.
Dont join the establishment — and you will regret it.
wv-kierkegaard.PS — what do i know. I got nuthin, but political-darkness. š
w
vOctober 19, 2019 at 6:16 pm #106946
ZooeyModeratorYeah, we don’t have the numbers. I mean…not at all. And don’t let Bernie Sanders’ numbers fool you. Sanders is, of course, a kind of FDR level of Democrat. Maybe he’s to the left of that, and just knows it no use talking about anything to the left of that for now, I dunno.
But when I started to think I saw signs of life on the Left because of various polls saying that young people are questioning capitalism, and supporting Sanders, and all his social proposals…I have that tempered by the fact that a lot of those people don’t know what they’re talking about.
I mean…a lot of Sanders supporters list Joe Biden as their second choice as a candidate.
Essayons!
October 19, 2019 at 6:44 pm #106950wvParticipantYeah, we donāt have the numbers. I meanā¦not at all. And donāt let Bernie Sandersā numbers fool you. Sanders is, of course, a kind of FDR level of Democrat. Maybe heās to the left of that, and just knows it no use talking about anything to the left of that for now, I dunno.
But when I started to think I saw signs of life on the Left because of various polls saying that young people are questioning capitalism, and supporting Sanders, and all his social proposalsā¦I have that tempered by the fact that a lot of those people donāt know what theyāre talking about.
I meanā¦a lot of Sanders supporters list Joe Biden as their second choice as a candidate.
Essayons!
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Yeah the political-IQ of “the 95 percent” is so low, i dont think they could change anything in ‘the establishment.’ They ‘are’ the establishment. Bernie-voters not withstanding.
Sometimes the surreal-ness of the Amerikan-situation is fascinating. For example, think about how many books are out there right now DETAILING atrocity after atrocity after atrocity by this system. The “five percent” write books all the time. From Chomsky, to Zinn, to Hedges, to Naomi Klein, to the Media-Lens guys, to Max Blumenthal, to Greg Palast, to Bill Blum, and on and on and on and on…
Doesnt matter. Not one iota of difference.
The bloody info is out there.
Doesn’t matter.
Cause the people are so dummed-down. Its like tryin to show shakespeare to Frankenstein’s monster. He’s just gonna eat the book and then twist yer head off.
Anyway, its just a fascinating, unique situation. I assume during Hitler’s reign there were not hundreds of books being published about all his atrocities. The American system is so much more sophisticated than Hitlers. I mean, the powers that be dont even have to care.
Have a nice day. Call me Mary-Sunshine.
…btw I watched the movie Whiplash. It made me want to listen to Jazz drummers.
w
vOctober 19, 2019 at 10:34 pm #106958
nittany ramModeratorWe live in a country where spending tax dollars on the poor is wrong, but subsidizing rich corporations with tax dollars is right.
And the poor vote to keep it that way.
Not sure how you change a system that can make people think that being trampled is in their best interest, but yeah, there aināt near enough of us to do it.
October 20, 2019 at 10:12 am #106965Billy_TParticipantExcellent responses here and in the “Smearing Gabbard” thread. Lotsa food for thought.
On the numbers thing. I often feel that way too, and it depresses the hell out of me. But I was thinking about this last night from a different angle . . . In reality, our opponents don’t have the numbers either. We actually outnumber them. By “opponents” I’m talking about the ruling class, the owners of the means of production, the folks who pull the strings.
Throughout history, the smartest revolutionaries recognized this. They tended to get all kinds of other things wrong. But they saw this part accurately:
Those in power are woefully outnumbered by their “subjects.” And they retain that power, especially in the age of mass communication, by controlling the levers of information, the media, the education system, etc. Police and militaries too, obviously.
We leftists, in my view, should remember this and not exaggerate the “support” for the Establishment. It’s less than shallow and highly contingent. The mass of citizens aren’t fans of their bosses. Not in the slightest. They’ve adapted to the system. They don’t really support it. Humans are a highly adaptive species in general. Probably to a fault.
Continued below . . .
October 20, 2019 at 10:19 am #106967Billy_TParticipantWhat those revolutionaries understood, and we’ve probably forgotten, is that strategic control of the levers of power generally beats numerical superiority. Not always, but generally.
This is why pretty much every successful revolution was a minority affair, including the American Revolution. It never had much in the way of “popular support,” outside the merchant class in the North and the slaveholder class in the South. The rest of the colonials could take it or leave it. Didn’t much matter to them if their bosses were the British or the Americans. They mostly felt screwed no matter what happened via geopolitics.
To try to make a long story shorter, we leftists can maximize our relatively small numbers strategically, and through unity of goals and methods. It’s really the latter that has hurt us through time, including today. It’s basically like herding cats to get leftists to agree about much of anything.
;>)
October 20, 2019 at 10:27 am #106968Billy_TParticipantA quick return to the adaptability thing. Again, I think we sometimes confuse people wanting to “go along to get along” with support for this or that regime, or at least a popular critical mass of some kind. I think it’s far more likely that most people are just falling into whichever faction rules at any given moment, and they’d do the same if it were leftists.
(It’s always minority rule at the top. The top never has the numbers.)
In fact, since leftist philosophy has always championed the common man and woman, it seems self-evident to me that we’d add to the usual “adaptability” mode . . . seriously effective, positive, forward-looking benefits for the mass of citizens — and the earth itself. So they wouldn’t just be going along to get along, they’d actually gain huge increases in quality of life, that no other part of the political spectrum offers. This latter aspect would do what no previous regime has ever done:
Sustain power through deeds, not simply through the combination of strategic control and the human tendency to adapt.
October 20, 2019 at 10:47 am #106969Billy_TParticipantLast comment this round:
I lean left-anarchist. So “power,” to me, isn’t the goal. It’s a means to an end. My ideal society would be as non-hierarchical as is humanly possible, and a “classless” society is a must. It’s the ground for everything else, the starting point for non-violent, democratic revolution in the first place.
No gods, no masters. No bosses. Rotate ’em, if they’re ever necessary for this or that. Temps only. Lottery being a great way to do this. No permanent centers of power. Anywhere. We’d take turns, if “leaders” are needed.
That said, because of the deeply hierarchical nature of modern society, I don’t see a way to go instantly from what we have to that ideal. If we could skip past all the “power” modes, I’d be in favor of that. But I don’t see how it’s possible at the moment. Unfortunately, I think leftists are going to have to “take power” in order to create a society without it. If this were the 19th century, and the world was predominately agrarian, I think we could skip that “stage.” But it appears too late for that in the 21st century.
Of course, in the areas of the world conducive already to non-hierarchical structures . . . yeah. So a truly democratic revolution should be agile enough to base things on the various facts on the ground . . . not on overarching ideologies or dogmas. The latter never ends well.
Facts on the ground. Democratic processes. Participatory self-rule. Go from there.
October 20, 2019 at 12:03 pm #106975wvParticipantI dunno for sure, but I think i disagree BT. I dont think we ‘outnumber’ them. I think its like the Matrix š
I dont think the masses have just reluctantly ‘accepted’ things or have ‘adapted’ to things — The VOTE COUNT proves that. NO-ONE is forcing them to continue to vote, year after year after year after year for Bushes, Reagans, Nixons, Trumps, Clintons, and Obamas. Plus look…at…the…SENATE. My lord. Just look at who…they…vote for. Willingly. They dont have to. There’s always progressive candidates out there.
I think the masses’ brains have been colonized.
I dont think looking to past revolutions helps anymore. There’s never been a modern-propaganda-system like the one that exists in the USA. At least I dont think there has. I dunno.
btw, i am skimming a Pat Tillman book:
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From āWhere Men Win Gloryā The Pat Tillman story, by J Krakaurāā¦a fervent subculture of Marxist intellectuals, professionals and students had by this time taken root in Kabulā¦.
ā¦..
ā¦ā¦.ā¦Carter called it (the soviet invasion) āthe most serious threat to peace since world war IIāā¦.
ā¦.But Carterās righteous indignation was more than slightly disingenuous. Although the US government claimed otherwise in official statements, the CIA had begun purchasing weapons for the Mujahideen at least six months before the Soviet invasion and this clandestine support was intended not to deter Moscow but to provoke it. According to Carterās national security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, the purpose of arming the Afghans was to stimulate enough turmoil to āinduce a Soviet military interventionāā¦ā
===============Our tax dollars at work. The info is out there. The masses dont care. How would joining the CIA stop any of this?
w
vOctober 20, 2019 at 12:36 pm #106984Billy_TParticipantGood response, WV.
As mentioned, lotsa them from you guys.
On voting. You know from Manufactured Consent the kind of info our population receives. Don’t you think that if leftists were able to get our info out to the mainstream, things would change? I think that’s basically the strategy right now of the DSA, of the AOCs, Ilhan Omars, etc. etc.
The DSA is basically trying to mainstream socialism, and I love that they’re doing this. We also need to invest in media, education and other sectors of society . . . Do that outside/inside game. Intentional communities, co-ops, WSDEs, etc. etc. Agitate for change from the outside, but do our best to get on the inside too. Both/and. Change from both directions.
A great example today on the Sunday Shows of why this is necessary. This Week had a panel of Chris Christie, Rahm Emmanuel, Heidi Heitkamp and Sara Fagen. That’s a conservative Republican, a conservative Dem, another conservative Dem, and a conservative Republican strategist. All those voters are hearing is conservative rhetoric, spin, etc. They’re not even getting “liberal” Dem stuff. Don’t you think voters would respond in new ways if we had a seat at the table too?
October 20, 2019 at 12:39 pm #106985Billy_TParticipantI’m working up a long-winded post on Marx, Proudhon and their battles. It’s gonna be scintillating!!
;>)
Will post it later this afternoon. Probably after the Rams game I won’t be able to watch.
Thanks for the Tilman quote too, WV.
October 20, 2019 at 1:47 pm #106989ZooeyModeratorI tend to think that the Wachowski brothers (unintentionally) made the most historically accurate movie ever in The Matrix.
What would it take to break the matrix?
For Jeff Bezos to suddenly see the light, and start a news network that did not rely on advertising to survive and could run at a huge loss indefinitely, and had a distribution system that did not rely on other corporations for broad delivery to households. That might work.
October 20, 2019 at 5:10 pm #107001wvParticipantDonāt you think that if leftists were able to get our info out to the mainstream, things would change?…
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Well, I dunno. Once the masses have been drenched in propaganda for decades I am afraid “non-capitalist” info just bounces off them, BT. I think propaganda changes their brains. If you dont think so, go talk to a mainstreamer and just give them some facts on any issue, and see what happens š The facts bounce off em.
And of course the facts ‘are’ out there. You read books on facts all the time. But its all drowned out by the MSM and the propaganda-state. In order to ‘get thru’ to the masses, I suspect you’d have to eliminate the MSM and THEN maybe after a few years of ‘deprogramming’ you might have a chance. I dunno.
Its academic at this point. And the proof is always at the ballot box.
w
vOctober 20, 2019 at 5:17 pm #107002wvParticipantI tend to think that the Wachowski brothers (unintentionally) made the most historically accurate movie ever in The Matrix..
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The Matrix. Yeah, think may be true.
Cept i think the Lorax may end up being the most accurate.
w
v
“I, that did never weep, now melt with woe
That winter should cut off our spring-time so”
http://mentalfloss.com/article/31865/william-shakespeares-12-coldest-quotesOctober 20, 2019 at 8:00 pm #107023Billy_TParticipantDonāt you think that if leftists were able to get our info out to the mainstream, things would change?ā¦
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Well, I dunno. Once the masses have been drenched in propaganda for decades I am afraid ānon-capitalistā info just bounces off them, BT. I think propaganda changes their brains. If you dont think so, go talk to a mainstreamer and just give them some facts on any issue, and see what happens š The facts bounce off em.
And of course the facts āareā out there. You read books on facts all the time. But its all drowned out by the MSM and the propaganda-state. In order to āget thruā to the masses, I suspect youād have to eliminate the MSM and THEN maybe after a few years of ādeprogrammingā you might have a chance. I dunno.
Its academic at this point. And the proof is always at the ballot box.
w
vYou’re such a buzzkill, WV!! Here I was, awash in a moment of pollyannish hopefulness, and you come along and talk of “reality“!!!
:>)
I’ve experienced the part in bold first hand about a billion times. They do bounce off them. Hell, I was kinda shocked at a recent family and friends gathering when it happened after one of my patented anticapitalist rants. Twenty years ago, I think they would have clapped after my speechifying. Today, the same people were, like, stop it.
Anyway, I’m gonna hold onto at least this part. Yeah, I think you’re right about the longterm effects of generations of capitalist propaganda — perhaps I shouldn’t use the term (it’s kinda out of date), but I don’t know what to replace it with — and even if leftists were on an even playing field in the here and now, there’s still roughly 50 years to battle through, to catch up. . . but we have to start somewhere, sometime, right? If we give up, they win in an absolute way. If we don’t tilt at windmills, they win, in a final, game over, turn out the lights sense.
The stakes are that big.
As Zooey says, Essayons. Let’s add Nous to that too.
October 20, 2019 at 8:16 pm #107027wvParticipant…As Zooey says, Essayons. Letās add Nous to that too.
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Yeah, we gotta bash-on-regardless. I mean itz not like humans can tank and get a high first round planet in the future.
…I’m reading the Dying Earth. Cuz thats how i bash-on. By reading about a planet where the sun is going out. š
wv-buzzkill
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wiki: The Dying Earth, by J.Vance“…The stories are all set in an undefined far future Earth, when the sun is nearing the end of its life. The sky ranges from pink to deep blue, lit by a dim red sun, and many strange plants and animals exist. Much of the story is set… in the ruined cities that dot the landscape.
…. The characters in the stories are aware that they live on a “Dying Earth” and often make carefree, nihilistic references to the fact that their planet does not have much longer to live, assuming that the sun will soon burn itself out. It is never explained how long the Earth has left to live; it could be only decades….”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dying_Earth
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