Forum Replies Created

Viewing 30 posts - 6,991 through 7,020 (of 12,327 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • in reply to: Noam on identity politics… #69547
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I”m trying to learn to use this, btw:

    http://youtubetime.com/#

    in reply to: May/June/July Russia thread #69530
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I am still wondering about the missile strike in Syria. If Trump is under the influence of Russia —

    Is someone claiming he is directly under the influence of Russia?

    ================
    Noone on this board is doing that but sure,
    there are inferences and implications by the Dems, through the MSM, that he is under the influence of Putin and the rooskies.

    Though ‘under the influence’ is not a rigid black-and-white kindof concept. He might be ‘somewhat’ under their influence or ‘greatly’ under their influence, or ‘at times’ under their influence, etc etc.

    At any rate, the missile strike was odd to me.

    w
    v

    in reply to: May/June/July Russia thread #69523
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    New leaks about the content of the classified reports of Russian officials claiming to have incriminating financial material are “yet another round of false and unverified claims made by anonymous sources to smear the President,” the White House told CNN.

    ================

    My own wild-speculation is this: OF COURSE the Russians delved deeply into Trump’s past and dug up every single ugly thing they could find. I would think every country with a powerful secret-police-force did the same thing. I have no doubt Israel did the same thing. China, Europe, etc.

    And of course there was a LOT of ugliness to find, given that Trump has a long history of unethical and ugly behavior.

    I also think none of that matters to his base — cause (A) they dont care, and (B) they will never believe anything that comes from sources like the MSM.

    ….on a different tangent, I am still wondering about the missile strike in Syria. If Trump is under the influence of Russia — why the missile strike in Syria? Was it all just a set up to make it LOOK like Trump was not under the influence of russia? Was the strike ‘politics’ or policy?

    w
    v

    in reply to: May/June/July Russia thread #69522
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    IMO this is very minor in-group parsing of concepts. Which is fine. Outside of this parsing, we’re united against the same things.

    ================

    Absolutely. No question.

    w
    v

    in reply to: May/June/July Russia thread #69505
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    There are lots of hierarchies outside of feudalistic societies. I don’t even understand that statement. Of course the CIA and NSA and FBI are hierarchical.

    I don’t know how you’re using that word in a way that makes sense. It is true that all organizations are, well, organized…but that fact in itself means nothing. All the organizations we like are organized too. So the fact that an organization is organized tells me nothing about the political situation or what to expect in terms of the policies of those who work for them. It’s way too over-generalizing to me. And in fact, we do know that those organizations are actually diverse and factionalized.

    A hierarchical society means that when you leave work, you are still subject to social levels of power requiring direct obedience. We don’t live in that world. I don’t owe deference and obedience to someone who works for a government organization—if he asks me to let him go ahead in the grocery line because he works for the state dept., I can just say “heck no” and that’s that.

    So no we’re not a hierarchical society. We’re something different. Our problems are located in some other kind of issue, not that.

    .

    ==================

    What does ‘hierarchical’ have to do with ‘deep state’ ‘corporotacracy’ ‘system’ ‘military industrial complex’ ?

    There’s no rule that says those concepts have to describe a ‘rigid’ hierarchy. In fact i think the corporotacracy is more of an…oh….”oligarchy melded with corporate-legal-structure melded with secret-power/military-organizations” (CIA, NSA etc)

    I dont pretend to even know what the ‘system’ is precisely in a clear mathematical way. But i can certainly see the shadowy-outlines of it. Think of it as the Rochschilds/Morgans/Rockefellers melded with the political-elites melded with the Corporate-CEOs melded with the CIA/Pentagon.

    I mean, how would ‘you’ describe corporate-capitalism and how it operates?

    w
    v

    in reply to: May/June/July Russia thread #69497
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The thing is much more divided than the Cartoon Evil representation would have us think.

    ============

    Well, you’ve posted with zooey and me for over a decade. Do you really think we would be satisfied with an ‘evil cartoon’ representation of reality?

    You know we wouldnt.

    And nothing you wrote about the run up to the Iraq war, clashes with the concept of ‘corporotacracy’ or ‘deep state’ or ‘system’ or ‘military industrial complex’.

    w
    v

    in reply to: May/June/July Russia thread #69496
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I think your approach tends to hide the dark-blurry-elephant in the room.

    w
    v

    I just resist Slogans.

    To me, Slogans are the drugs of the enemy.

    Which of course is a slogan but what the heck.

    =============

    To me they have nothing to do with ‘slogans’. I see all political words as less than precise. Is the term ‘alt-right’ a ‘slogan’ ? Was Ike’s term “military industrial complex” a ‘slogan’ ?

    Describing or labeling ‘clusters of power’ is always difficult. Especially difficult now because so much is hidden from us by secret agencies like the CIA, NSA, etc.

    w
    v

    in reply to: May/June/July Russia thread #69490
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    But I don’t think those things ARE synonymous. It’s not like it’s The Empire in Star Wars. I see a complicated tangle of things. Always remember I am personally going to approach stuff like this as an historian, and historians see contradictory movements and patches of differences, not simple blocs of power.

    =====================
    I know you approach it differently than me. I never try to persuade you or anyone else to approach it like me.

    And, yes, to me they are synonymous — and the words (to me) do not mean its NOT a ‘complicated tangle of things” — of course its a complicated tangle of things. But its still a related ‘cluster-of-things’. It definitely involves contradictory currents, patches of differences, unknowns, conspiracies, non-conspiracies, and a gazillion other fluid currents — but to me, there’s a dark blurry shape to it. Something is ‘there’. I think history and critical research show that. I think your approach tends to hide the dark-blurry-elephant in the room.

    w
    v

    in reply to: May/June/July Russia thread #69480
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    on the rift in the deep-state

    To be provocative, and for the sheer fun of it, I just want to say…I don’t buy the concept of the “deep state.” I think it’s no accident that it was immediately appropriated by the right. I see it as conspiracy thinking without analysis, and based on very fuzzy assumptions.

    Don’t get me wrong, there IS something there TO analyze, but I don’t think that whatever it is, it has much value in explaining things.

    We want a world where various federal agencies do not buy into Trump’s agenda. Why? Because Trump’s agenda is far, far worse than THEIR agendas (and it’s not just one thing and not just one agenda).

    The courts stand up to Trump. Different cities and states stand up to Trump. Various agency professionals (quite rightly) stand up to Trump.

    So I don’t see a “deep state” (which is a journalistic concept without much actual real explanatory value). I see a “wide division.” Different thing.

    ================

    Deep State is used in different ways by different people. “I” use it as a synonym for Corporotacracy or system.. I use the three terms interchangeably and i purposely keep away from trying to define both concepts in a rigid way.

    Essentially i mean the cluster of power held by the corporations and oligarchs who are connected in often unknown ways.

    I think deep-state, corporotacracy, oligarchy, plutocracy, system are all talking about the same thing, and i think they are flawed but useful words. To me they are words that lead to important questions, important research, important critical-thinking. I dont think the words are ever going to be totally clear. I dont think there has ever been anything like the deep-state before in human history.

    w
    v

    in reply to: Jimmy Carter and Bernie #69479
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Really, any optimism has to live right there.

    His elevation was actually remarkable.

    ==================

    True. Which is why the Dem-machine is
    implementing its anti-bernie strategy.

    We’ll see how it turns out.

    w
    v

    in reply to: Remember when you were young? (birthday) #69453
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    You shone like the sun…

    53 today. I really miss 23.

    ———————

    But you have so much more wisdom now, right?

    w
    v

    in reply to: Jimmy Carter and Bernie #69451
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well sure, i agree with that — but I’d just add forming alliances is not easy.
    If it were easy the left would have been more successful over the decades. Its agonizing for me to read/watch/think about all the blowing up the left has done over the decades rather than alliance-building. Probably the easiest example is the old battles inside the Unions back in the 1920’s and 30s. Ya had the ‘liberal’ Union folks fighting the socialist union folks and they just ripped it all to shreds.

    So, i agree alliance building is critical. But so far the only alliance building thats been successful that i can see — is the alliance building the Duplicats have done and the alliance building the Replicants have done.

    The duplicats and replicants are great alliance builders.

    Ah well.

    w
    v

    in reply to: CNN on the billions trump gave Saudi Arabia #69450
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The ‘liberal’ washington post continues its liberal support of corporate-weapons and the ‘system’.

    w
    v

    =============================
    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/washington_post_running_op-eds_lobbyists_pushing_weapons_20170527

    Washington Post Keeps Running Op-Eds by Lobbyists Pushing Their Clients’ Weapons
    Posted on May 27, 2017

    By Adam Johnson / AlterNet

    “….Rogers’ lobbying firm BGR received $120,000 in 2016 for lobbying on “defense and communications procurement; Defense appropriations and authorizations,” for Raytheon, Media Matters reported at the time.

    Rogers boosted Trump again on behalf of his client six weeks later–this time both Saudi Arabia and Raytheon–in his post “The upcoming international trip is an opportunity for Trump and his staff”. The column, while not directly addressing weapons system. painted a glowing picture of a courageous Mr. Trump heading to the middle east to make peace and forge relationships.

    Ed Rogers’ firm BGR was paid $500,000 by Saudi Arabia in 2015 to lobby on behalf of the Middle East dictatorship. In addition, the weapons deal finalized by the Trump administration on the trip greatly benefited Rogers’ other client, Raytheon, which has paid BGR $270,000 in the past two and a half years.

    Raytheon is also the primary sponsor of Washington Post’s corporate puff interview series “Post Live: Securing Tomorrow” hosted by NatSec-friendly David Ignatius….”

    in reply to: May/June/July Russia thread #69444
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The latest Harper’s has an article on the rift in the deep-state between Trump and the cold-warriors in the CIA. Not a good article in general, but i did find schumer’s statement, appal.ingly insightful.

    link:https://harpers.org/archive/2017/06/security-breach/2/

    Security Breach
    Trump’s tussle with the bureaucratic state

    By Michael J. Glennon

    Over the course of President Trump’s short tenure, an unprecedented, seismic split between the Oval Office and the security directorate has taken place….

    ….
    ….

    (page 3 of 3 )

    …Many never-Trumpers in both parties now regard the security bureaucracy as their last, best hope. Following the Washington Post’s disclosure on December 9 that the CIA believed Russia had intervened in the election to help Trump, the agency overnight became the great darling of many Trump critics. They urged it to share its secrets with the Electoral College with the goal of preventing the president-elect from taking office. Trump was “being really dumb” by feuding with the CIA, according to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. “You take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.” Francis Fukuyama hoped that “America’s enormous bureaucracy” would restrain Trump. Bill Kristol proclaimed he would “prefer the deep state to the Trump state.” And The New Yorker assured readers that the intelligence community’s managers were likely to challenge Trump before Congress, which was as it should be: “This is just the sort of thing we want to see happening” as part of “the fabled ‘checks and balances’ in the U.S. system.”

    Clearly the public has a right to know whether a president is telling the truth if he claims that his predecessor ordered that he be illegally wiretapped. The public also has a right to know whether the president’s staff illegally coordinated with a foreign government during the election campaign or lied to the FBI about foreign contacts. But consider the price of victory if the security directorate were somehow to establish itself as a check on those presidential policies — or officials — that it happened to dislike. To formally charge the bureaucracy with providing a check on the president, Congress, or the courts would represent an entirely new form of government, a system in which institutionalized bureaucratic autocracy displaces democratic accountability. What standing would Trump’s critics have to object to bureaucratic supremacy should an enlightened president come along, in some brighter time, and seek to free them from the “polar night of icy darkness” that Max Weber warned is bureaucracy’s inevitable end point? Where then would they turn, having consecrated the security directorate as their final guardian?

    As a creature of the people’s elected institutions, the bureaucracy was never intended to be a coequal of Congress, the courts, and the president. Bureaucracy doesn’t even appear in the constitutional design that emerged from Philadelphia in 1787. Under the Constitution, power is delegated to the intelligence bureaucracy, not by it. Like other departments and agencies, an intelligence organization can exercise only those powers given to it by its constitutionally established creators. Those who would counter the illiberalism of Trump with the illiberalism of unfettered bureaucrats would do well to contemplate the precedent their victory would set.

    This perilous precedent would be the least of it, however, should the bureaucracy emerge triumphant. American history is not silent about the proclivities of unchecked security forces, a short list of which includes the Palmer Raids, the FBI’s blackmailing of civil rights leaders, Army surveillance of the antiwar movement, the NSA’s watch lists, and the CIA’s waterboarding. No one passingly familiar with this record of abuse and misconduct could seriously contemplate entrusting these agencies with responsibility for preserving the nation’s civil and political liberty. Without constitutional accountability, what reason is there to believe that they would not quickly revert to their old ways, particularly should a national emergency provide plausible justification? Who would trust the authors of past episodes of repression as a reliable safeguard against future repression?….see link

    in reply to: Prozac #69274
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I had a dog once who took Prozac. Didn’t help. Continued to chase down people and try and eat them.

    ==============

    what does your dog think of Trump?

    w
    v

    in reply to: big NFL rules changes #69241
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    What is the actual rule on the ‘celebration’ thing?

    I think there should be a special designated area, on the sideline
    for all narcissistic displays by prima donnas. Like a litle stage. With strobe lights and solid-gold-dancers in the background.

    And i think it should have a small amount of dynamite underneath it.

    w
    v

    in reply to: Iranian socialism #69229
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Fisk on Trump and the Mid East
    w
    v
    =================
    Donald Trump is trying to stick to the script – but he’s about to really mess up in the Middle East

    There he was talking of the ‘ultimate deal’ between Israel and the Palestinians – as if peace was just a commodity to be bought or sold

    link:http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/donald-trump-saudi-arabia-riyadh-israel-palestine-sunni-shia-a7749921.html

    In Riyadh, Trump couldn’t mention where most of the the 9/11 hijackers came from or whose Sunni cult-faith was the inspiration for Isis – nor which country chopped off heads with Isis-like relish. (Answer: Saudi Arabia). And when he arrived in Israel on Monday, Trump was faced with a new censorship protocol: don’t mention who was occupying whose property in the West Bank or which country was outrageously and continuously stealing land – legally owned by Arabs – for Jews and Jews only. (Answer: Israel).

    So bingo, in the biggest Middle East alliance ever created in history, the Saudis and the other Sunni Arab dictators and America’s crackpot President and Israel’s cynical Prime Minister have all agreed on the identity of the devil country they can all curse with one voice, inspirer of “world terror”, instigator of Middle East instability, the greatest threat to world peace: Shia Iran.

    So within a few minutes of landing at Tel Aviv airport – part of whose runways actually lies on land legally owned by Palestinian Arabs 60 years ago – the Trump speechwriters (for Trump surely cannot write this stuff) were churning out once more their hatred of Iran, of Iran’s “terror”, of Iran’s plots, of Iran’s continuing desire to make a nuclear bomb. And all this when Iran has just re-elected a sane president who actually signed the nuclear agreement two years ago that substantially reduced Iran’s strategic threat to Israel, the Arabs and America….

    …On Sunday, CNN headlined a “reset” with the Arabs. On Monday, the BBC headlined a “reset” with Israel. What they both meant – but dared not say – is that Trump thinks he can get the Arabs and Israel to destroy the power of Iran after the horrid, moral years of Obama. That means “war”, preferably between Muslims. The “ultimate deal”, indeed.

    in reply to: Norman Solomon on RNN #69172
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Is Russian the ‘adversary’: Real News Network

    in reply to: Juan Cole: consultant to the CIA #69118
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Interesting. Interesting stuff from Mr Cole. One of the problems with even HAVING a secret police agency as large and powerful as the CIA is — how do we ever know what to believe ? I mean if Cole ‘was’ connected to the CIA would he admit it? How would we know? How would we know whether Human Rights Watch is free of CIA-influence? How do we know which NYTimes editors/reporters are free of cia-influence? Etc. Just ‘having’ a CIA makes it hard for ‘me’ to know whats true and whats not.

    At any rate, i found this Cole comment interesting: “…we now know that the Bush administration was upset that I was given a hearing in Washington and was influential with the analysts, and asked the CIA to spy on me and attempt to destroy my reputation.”

    First how would Cole know something like that? That the CIA was asked to spy on him? And did they? And who else do they spy on? Editors? Journalists? Activists? Etc, etc, etc.

    And why is having a secret-spy-agency a good thing?

    w
    v

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Yeah, I think there is a big difference between promoting an establishment point of view which is narrow and selective and promoting outright lies, lies of omission, and basically hate speech in order to manipulate a large portion of the population into hostile partisanship.

    Those things are not equal.

    One of those things can actually be engaged; the other can’t.

    ====================

    Well, its true Fox is off-the-charts, with their NeoCon/Evangelical sales-pitch.

    But what IS the NYTimes? What does it stand for, what does it sell to the public exactly?

    My own view is that it essentially sells Obama/Clinton. Neoliberalism.
    And there is no neoliberalism without the CIA and the Corporations and the Pentagon and weapons manufacturers and the corporate-media, etc, etc etc. The whole shebang. The NYT is pro ‘system’. Pro ‘corporotacracy’.

    And what does the corporotacracy do to the biosphere? To the poor?

    So is that so much better than what Fox News is all about? Well…yes…i suppose…but still…. blah blah blah yall know my speech by now.

    I loathe the NYT.

    w
    v

    in reply to: Juan Cole: consultant to the CIA #69101
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well, I did know Professor Cole. He was one of a large number of experts of diverse views that the National Intelligence Council and my office and the CIA respectively consult with to challenge our assumptions and understand the trends and issues on our various portfolios.

    Good. Good intel depends on things like that. And good policy requires knowledge.

    I also know that Cole was under attack by the BUsh administration.

    To me you always have to make distinctions. It’s not a cartoon. Understanding the CIA also means understanding that there are genuine pure analysts in their various sub-factions and that we want those people reaching out for the best sources to be actually informed.

    To me tarring people with a broad brush serves no purpose and is actually what our right-wing opponents do.

    ….

    ===================
    Since when is adding accurate info about someone ‘tarring’ them?

    Cole has worked with the CIA. Thats something i didnt know. Its very interesting to me. Its true. Its accurate. Has nothing to do with ‘cartoons’ or ‘tarring’.

    And yes the Bushies dont like him. That just means he’s not a rightwinger to me. But what is he?

    w
    v

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Those are indeed the two narratives of the two corporate-mainstream-media-outlets.

    I don’t agree. I think it dignifes one version to call it “a narrative.” Yeah teachnically it is, but that;s not what’s pertinent. What’s pertinent is that it;s full of lies and distortions and misleads and suppresses part of the story.

    The other version is more factual as reporting, though yes like all coverage, it works within certain interpretive boundaries.

    We are going to keep disagreeing on this–the right spin on things like this is far worse and far more dangerous. It’s not “equal” in terms of just being “equally a narrative.”

    It makes a difference to sort out the best info on things. What I would welcome more is a critique of the mainstream, not-rightie version which accounted for more things, was a better interpretation, and stood up better to scrutiny. But just declaring these 2 to be effectively equal, TO ME, is actually just another distortion. I of course don’t think it’s intended as a distortion…but those 2 versions of events are absolutely not equal. The challenge of course is to work at coming up with a better interpretation than the one version that is at least minimally factual.

    =================

    Well I’d like to see an article like that showing the NYTimes narrative about Hillary compared to their narrative about Bernie.

    I just cant take the NYTimes seriously anymore. Its an organ of propaganda (in my view). Fox is another organ of propaganda. Does Fox tell more blatant lies? Yes. Does the NYT tell more subtle lies? I’d say yes. The NYT has supported every war i can think of, blah blah blah.

    Anyway, I’m bowing out of this thread. No heat from me. Just would rather post about other things this week.

    w
    v

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    ==============

    That may be my favorite symbol. Might just be.

    w
    v

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well the article is right on about there being two mega-corporate-narratives — ie, the pro-Hillary-NewYork-Times version of the narrative and the pro-Trump-Fox-Newz narrative.

    Those are indeed the two narratives of the two corporate-mainstream-media-outlets.

    I dont put much stock in either of those narratives. Just my view. I know some folks have a different view. (and i know all about not trusting one source and ‘layering’ various sources and all that. I dont think that works very well anymore, given the corporate dominance of the news agencies now.)

    w
    v

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    “I get the impression you dont really care about it, or the fact that they are undemocratic and are unaccountable.”

    You are not the privileged one to only know about the stuff this agency has done. I know as much as you do and many others do as well. My opinion is that notwithstanding the stuff that we find hard to digest this country still needs it in the same manner we need the NSA and the FBI.

    Depending upon the CIA director and the attitudes of whomever happens to be the U.S. President (or in GW’s case, VP Cheney who had his own CIA within the CIA without informing Congress), the CIA does play a vital role in keeping the U.S. safe, but in some areas has been evil or poorly used. We don’t always get to choose our bedfellows.

    ===============

    Yes, of course we see the CIA differently. We see Corporations differently. You think we need mega-corporations and they bring us good stuff. And you think we need the CIA because if its run right it does good things.

    I think the Corporations are destroying the biosphere, and the CIA protects the corporate-destructive-force. So i agree with Smedley Butler and you dont.

    w
    v
    The following is an excerpt from a speech he gave in 1933: Smedley Butler

    “…
    …I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we’ll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

    I wouldn’t go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

    There isn’t a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its “finger men” to point out enemies, its “muscle men” to destroy enemies, its “brain men” to plan war preparations, and a “Big Boss” Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

    It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

    I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

    I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
    During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    And btw, fwiw, the CIA and the NSA and the FBI are all kinda ‘one thing’ to me. They are separate ‘tentacles’ of the same Cthulhu

    And I have to say I don’t agree with that either. I always prefer actual concrete analysis over vague monster making.

    .

    ======================
    To me that just means you disagree. I didnt make the monsters. I just look at the histories and if they look like frankenstein and walk like frankenstein and think like frankenstein — i call’em monsters.

    Now, to me, I’m just ‘shooting from the hip’ when i call them ‘tentacles of Chthulu’. Its not meant to be a detailed analysis. But shooting from the hip doesnt mean ‘creating monsters’. It just means its a way of describing something quickly in a message board post. No different than saying “Lawrence Philips is a BUST”. Its not a detailed analysis but its still accurate in a shooting from the hip kind of way.

    I think maybe we just see the Corporotacracy differently. To me its Cthulu. And the various subsystems (FBI, CIA, NSA, Corporate-Media, Banks, Big Pharma, Big Oil, etc) are all ‘tentacles’. Separate but related tentacles. Thats how i see it. Thats the metaphor that works for me.

    You see it differently.

    I still have the Stockwell book on my mantle in my living-room. Lots of good info in that book.

    I dont think the thread is getting ugly, btw. We are fleshing out fundamentaly different perspectives.

    w
    v

    in reply to: in the end will McVay want Tavon? #69053
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I do feel that this regime has brought in a lot of experience on the O side all in an effort to get this team rolling….will TA be a part of it?

    ===================

    Well no-one knows i spose. They are gonna TRY to incorporate Tavon, but I’m sure they are hedging their bets. I certainly dont think he’s gonna be the center-piece of the offense.

    I think its 50/50 right now, on whether Tavon will
    be resigned as a Ram.

    Goff
    Gurley
    Tavon
    GRob

    Four big question marks.

    w
    v

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    “we are dealing with a secret society, a secret culture, a secret organization — the CIA. ”

    What I don’t get is this: if in fact they are a secret organization, culture and society-how do you know so much about them that you hate them as passionate as you do? They just can’t be all that secret for you and others to obtain information on the bad stuff they do.

    =================

    We only know a SMALL FRACTION of the horror, W. A small fraction. From that fraction we can extrapolate what they’ve been up to all these years.

    The small fraction comes from ex-cia agents, leaks, and investigative reporters.

    But most of it we will never know. And that fact alone should chill citizens to the bone. What kind decent society needs a secret police? One that interferes in other nations elections, assassinates socialists, trains terrorists, traffics in heroin and cocaine, plants false stories in the media, and sucks up UNKNOWN billions of dollars of tax payers dollars.

    Do you even WANT to know what the CIA does? I get the impression you dont really care about it, or the fact that they are undemocratic and are unaccountable.

    And btw, fwiw, the CIA and the NSA and the FBI are all kinda ‘one thing’ to me. They are separate ‘tentacles’ of the same Cthulhu.

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I want to re-iterate and re-emphasize just so there is no misunderstanding,
    I love you board-leftists. Always have and always will.

    Just because i despise the corporotacracy and disagree about big aspects of this or that deep-state-shit, has zero effect on how i feel about this group of misfit-toys.

    I love the internet too. Still.

    ….the internet is like…a Ferragamo to Waddy pass, over the middle, in a playoff game…

    w
    v

    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    =================

    I suspect it is more than just ‘he offended’ them. It could be that. But that makes them seem awfully…thin skinned. I have NO idea what the truth is, but it could be more than just ‘personal offense taken’. It could be a deep-state-policy thing.

    I dont think we will ever know.

    As far as the word ‘conspiracy’ — we are dealing with a secret society, a secret culture, a secret organization — the CIA. So, i dont even know how to leave out the term ‘conspiracy’, or how to even talk about them.

    I see it as a pathological organization. Doesnt matter (to me) if a few of them are ‘good people’ or fighting for a less-monstrous-organization. Its no different than Monsanto or Blackwater. I see them as pathological. Reflections of a pathological system in general. I see them the way Smedley Butler saw the powers-that-be.

    Again, no ‘heat’ here. I’m just talkin calmly. No big thing.

    My views have darkened since about the beginning of the election cycle. Partly because of what i saw the Dems do to Bernie. Partly because of what the corporate media has become — its much worse now than ever. Its essentially nothing but propaganda now. The CIA disgusts me.

    w
    v

    I agree with all of that.

    By offended, I’m not talking about reaching into the snack bowl with his hands instead of using the tongs.

    I think he has trampled all over their holy service and sacrifice, and shown total disregard for the meaning of all they hold dear. His actions have told them that he doesn’t respect them or value what they do.

    ===================

    Ok, could be Zooey. But IS trump really doing that? I dunno. My own wild speculation is that he uses and relies on the NSA/CIA as much as Obama did.

    I kinda suspect his ‘agenda’ is a bit different than Obama/Hillary — and the only thing i can figure, is maybe it has something to do with Russia. Somethin to do with how he views Russia. But who the hell knows. Everybody’s got an opinion on it, but how can we know what factions of the CIA are thinking? I mean just the term ‘factions of the CIA’ is surreal and problematic. It all has an Alice in Wonderland feel to it. And yet…

    At any rate, Its an undemocratic, secret-organization with a long long history of creating horror, torture and undemocratic activity. How can we even have a language for talking about what it may or may not be doing?

    Rick sees them as ‘professionals’. I dont even know what to do with that. Professional whats?

    We have fallen down the rabbit hole. The Dems and Reps are tweedle dum and tweedle dee. I dunno what character the CIA is. Or Trump. I dont know what else to say.

    w
    v

Viewing 30 posts - 6,991 through 7,020 (of 12,327 total)