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July 2, 2020 at 10:44 am in reply to: Rightwing violent-fringe, rightwing conspiracy theories, etc. #117479
Billy_TParticipantThis one could also go in the Are the Dems and Republicans really different thread . . . But it fits here too:
Yeah, the Dems suck. They’re lame all too often. They fall waaay short all too often. But they don’t run/elect complete nutcases like this woman.
What a combo? A gun nut, who open-carries at her restaurant and has her staff do this too . . . and she also supports the truly bat-shit crazy QAnon conspiracy theories.
She may well win in November and actually be a House member.
America has lost it’s freakin mind.
Billy_TParticipantThis one moved me too. At least from high school on, I’ve known this is a deeply personal issue for black Americans. Damn personal. Obviously, I can’t possibly know all the whys and wherefores from their perspective, but I’ve always known it matters.
Am proud of Virginia for doing this.

Marwa Eltaib stands in front of the Robert E Lee statue in Richmond, Virginia. The Crown Act was passed unanimously and was signed into law in 2019. Photograph: Dee Dwyer/The Guardian
‘Wear your crown, because change is coming’: Virginia joins states banning hair discrimination
(Lotsa cool pics online via the article)
Excerpt:
Virginia’s Crown Act goes into effect on Wednesday – and other southern states could follow
Kenya Evelyn in Richmond and photographs by Dee Dwyer Jonts
@LiveFromKenyaWed 1 Jul 2020 07.46 EDT
Last modified on Thu 2 Jul 2020 03.05 EDTShares
1,074Carmen Davis went natural in 2004, motivated by her mother to do the “big chop”, a phrase commonly used to describe cutting off chemically straightened Black hair in favor of naturally textured kinks, coils or curls.
Cut and run: the underground hairdressers of lockdown
Read moreStanding in front of the recently defaced statue of the Confederate leader Robert E Lee in Richmond, Virginia, she recalled the backlash against her decision.
“My roommate in college stopped talking me,” she said, noting how even in college at the time, being natural was rare. “She told me it was embarrassing to be seen with me and that I’d regret it.”
Today, Davis is a natural hairstylist, helping women in the Richmond area transition from chemical processing. Her former roommate eventually became one of her many clients.
Business is growing for Davis, but she admits change is slow in the “conservative, southern” state where, in many places, wearing natural hair could mean being denied a job or socially ostracized.
“Society overall frowns upon Black hair, but here it can still be uncommon for people to embrace it because of judgment or just the every day exhaustion of having to explain your Blackness,” she said.
Now they won’t have to. Virginia became the fourth US state, and the first in the south, to pass legislation banning hair discrimination based on racial identifiers including hair texture and hair type, as well as “protective hairstyles such as braids, [locs] and twists”. The law, known as the Crown Act, goes into effect on Wednesday.
Billy_TParticipantAnother poem/reading to love:
Imelda May – YOU DON’T GET TO BE RACIST AND IRISH.
Billy_TParticipantFor those who can’t get to the NYT:
By Caroline Randall Williams
Ms. Williams is a poet.
June 26, 2020
NASHVILLE — I have rape-colored skin. My light-brown-blackness is a living testament to the rules, the practices, the causes of the Old South.
If there are those who want to remember the legacy of the Confederacy, if they want monuments, well, then, my body is a monument. My skin is a monument.
Dead Confederates are honored all over this country — with cartoonish private statues, solemn public monuments and even in the names of United States Army bases. It fortifies and heartens me to witness the protests against this practice and the growing clamor from serious, nonpartisan public servants to redress it. But there are still those — like President Trump and the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell — who cannot understand the difference between rewriting and reframing the past. I say it is not a matter of “airbrushing” history, but of adding a new perspective.
Instagram Live
Caroline Randall Williams will be doing a reading of this essay and answering questions on Instagram (@nytopinion) on Tuesday, June 30 at 7 p.m. Eastern.I am a black, Southern woman, and of my immediate white male ancestors, all of them were rapists. My very existence is a relic of slavery and Jim Crow.
According to the rule of hypodescent (the social and legal practice of assigning a genetically mixed-race person to the race with less social power) I am the daughter of two black people, the granddaughter of four black people, the great-granddaughter of eight black people. Go back one more generation and it gets less straightforward, and more sinister. As far as family history has always told, and as modern DNA testing has allowed me to confirm, I am the descendant of black women who were domestic servants and white men who raped their help.
It is an extraordinary truth of my life that I am biologically more than half white, and yet I have no white people in my genealogy in living memory. No. Voluntary. Whiteness. I am more than half white, and none of it was consensual. White Southern men — my ancestors — took what they wanted from women they did not love, over whom they had extraordinary power, and then failed to claim their children.
What is a monument but a standing memory? An artifact to make tangible the truth of the past. My body and blood are a tangible truth of the South and its past. The black people I come from were owned by the white people I come from. The white people I come from fought and died for their Lost Cause. And I ask you now, who dares to tell me to celebrate them? Who dares to ask me to accept their mounted pedestals?
You cannot dismiss me as someone who doesn’t understand. You cannot say it wasn’t my family members who fought and died. My blackness does not put me on the other side of anything. It puts me squarely at the heart of the debate. I don’t just come from the South. I come from Confederates. I’ve got rebel-gray blue blood coursing my veins. My great-grandfather Will was raised with the knowledge that Edmund Pettus was his father. Pettus, the storied Confederate general, the grand dragon of the Ku Klux Klan, the man for whom Selma’s Bloody Sunday Bridge is named. So I am not an outsider who makes these demands. I am a great-great-granddaughter.
And here I’m called to say that there is much about the South that is precious to me. I do my best teaching and writing here. There is, however, a peculiar model of Southern pride that must now, at long last, be reckoned with.
This is not an ignorant pride but a defiant one. It is a pride that says, “Our history is rich, our causes are justified, our ancestors lie beyond reproach.” It is a pining for greatness, if you will, a wish again for a certain kind of American memory. A monument-worthy memory.
But here’s the thing: Our ancestors don’t deserve your unconditional pride. Yes, I am proud of every one of my black ancestors who survived slavery. They earned that pride, by any decent person’s reckoning. But I am not proud of the white ancestors whom I know, by virtue of my very existence, to be bad actors.
Among the apologists for the Southern cause and for its monuments, there are those who dismiss the hardships of the past. They imagine a world of benevolent masters, and speak with misty eyes of gentility and honor and the land. They deny plantation rape, or explain it away, or question the degree of frequency with which it occurred.
To those people it is my privilege to say, I am proof. I am proof that whatever else the South might have been, or might believe itself to be, it was and is a space whose prosperity and sense of romance and nostalgia were built upon the grievous exploitation of black life.
The dream version of the Old South never existed. Any manufactured monument to that time in that place tells half a truth at best. The ideas and ideals it purports to honor are not real. To those who have embraced these delusions: Now is the time to re-examine your position.
Either you have been blind to a truth that my body’s story forces you to see, or you really do mean to honor the oppressors at the expense of the oppressed, and you must at last acknowledge your emotional investment in a legacy of hate.
Either way, I say the monuments of stone and metal, the monuments of cloth and wood, all the man-made monuments, must come down. I defy any sentimental Southerner to defend our ancestors to me. I am quite literally made of the reasons to strip them of their laurels.
Caroline Randall Williams (@caroranwill) is the author of “Lucy Negro, Redux” and “Soul Food Love,” and a writer in residence at Vanderbilt University.
Billy_TParticipantTruly moving article by the poet, Caroline Randall Williams. Saw her on TV the other day. Aside from her obvious written-word talents, she’s wonderful “live.”
Billy_TParticipantI change my mind about this, all the time. I changed it several times today, in fact. The differences between the two major parties. Are they significant? Are they meaningful, meaningless, relevant, irrelevant?
It depends. For me, it’s all relative and context is everything.
Struggling for useful metaphors, it’s kinda like comparisons seen up close versus those seen from distances . . . and those distances, between valleys, mountains, and further skyward. Up close, on most issues, if we just compare the two parties to each other, just them, to each other, as opposed to a certain set of standards for what should be the case . . . . as opposed to comparing them to higher ideals, the representation of all citizens and our best interests . . . adhering to those higher standards for helping us achieve the best quality of life (and society) possible, protecting the environment, embracing, extending, enhancing democracy and inclusion, etc. etc. . . . if we compare the two major parties not to each other but to “higher things,” they fail utterly, year after year.
But there’s a difference in the failure and the failings, and the differences can matter, on the ground. It can even be a life and death sort of difference, as in the case of Covid-19 responses, Climate Change, Civil/Workers/Women’s/LGBT rights, etc. etc. Following or fighting the science. Fighting or following authoritarianism to its logical ends. If we allow for the fact that they both fall so incredibly short of meeting the Higher Things . . . Yeah, there are differences between them that matter.
Have had a rough day so I’ll leave it there. Will try to elaborate on the above tomorrow, give examples and so on. It got “personal” today and yesterday as well. Not sure how it will all shake out over time, but it got personal for me.
Hope all is well, everyone.
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This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by
Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantWell, like i say, I’m agnostic. If this case was in a court of law, where the burden of proof is ‘beyond a reasonable doubt,’ the ‘evidence’ is so thin (if i can even call it evidence at all) the case would simply be dismissed. Without question. Dismissed.
Now of course ‘we’ are not in a court of law so we can use whatever standards we want.
My ‘own’ stance is ‘agnostic’ on stuff like this. The evidence is thin, lame, hearsay. “sources unknown” quoted by anonymous ‘intelligence’ agents.
Please.As for Mate and Blumenthal, i dont know whether they are really agnostic on this or atheists on this. I’d have to interview and them and ask them.
I’d be surprised if anyone was an ‘atheist’ on this for the reasons zn pointed out. Heck yeah, all the big corporate and nationalist gangster-states do this shit. Wouldnt surprise me at all if Putin was doing this, or Trump, or Obama any of the other gangster-states. But thats not proof.
And there are reasons and agendas why the Dem-MSM and the Dem-Faction in the “Intelligence community” push these stories. Its that agenda that annoys me.
I know thats a separate subject, blah blah. But its not separate to ‘me.’ 🙂
Its an inseparable subject for ‘me.’w
vGood response. One of the reasons why I see your stance as agnostic, as opposed to the one in the video?
This reporting just came out. And new details are still emerging, daily. Hourly, at times. But certain media figures immediately dismissed all of it as X. Instantly. They didn’t wait for more stuff to come out, for new facts to broaden the available picture, for any expansion of sourcing, etc. They didn’t say, “Well, I want to see more evidence before I pass judgment.” They just pounced and assumed it was all bogus because, Russiagate, or CIA tactics during the Cold War.
The latter strikes me as especially irrelevant now, because Russia today is a far-right state, with a far-right oligarch(s) in charge, ideologically more in sync with the current regime in America than at any time since the Romanovs. And while I’ve never really bought into the idea of a separate “deep state” per se, especially a separate separate deep state for the Dems, after nearly four years of Trump’s reign it’s no longer even possible. No one in American history has been more aggressive (than Trump) in purging the ranks of anyone he sees as a threat. No one has worked harder to make “the state” his own, from top to bottom. It’s not close.
Speaking of that, I think you should start a running, clearing-house sorta thread that deals with this part of your response.
And there are reasons and agendas why the Dem-MSM and the Dem-Faction in the “Intelligence community” push these stories. Its that agenda that annoys me.
I know thats a separate subject, blah blah. But its not separate to ‘me.’ 🙂
Its an inseparable subject for ‘me.
Billy_TParticipantI am going to ask a personal request, if I can. I typed up an answer to Waterfield’s question about what is left/progressive and the ways the 2 mainstream parties are the same. I wonder if I could get people interested in adding to that discussion. I am always wondering about how to put that and what it includes. Other perspectives would help, it’s always enlightening to hear well-informed people muse about this. It’s here: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/are-dems-and-reps-really-the-same/
Will respond there later today. Good idea for a thread.
Billy_TParticipantI have more stuff to add later . . . but want to wait a bit in hopes of more posts from you and others, etc. . . .
A link to (IMO) an important New Yorker article:
Billy_TParticipantBefore Trump was elected, some folks I know in various parts of the universe, online and in the “real world,” tried to suggest he wouldn’t be that bad. I always believed he would be even worse than people imagined.
BUT…if you ignore the daily WTF?! moments, all he has done, really, is implement the right-republican agenda, as much as he could.
Which IMO is the absolute worst thing about him.
…
Well said. Agreed.
I thought he was going to be horrifically bad once elected (too). I thought he was full of shit from Day One of his campaign and said so. Never followed his reality TV shows, but what I did know about his history made me cringe. He’s always been a despicable human being, a conman, a cheat, a liar, a serial sexual predator, an extremely arrogant, entitled, privileged uber-brat. But while that was within the confines of his little business/entertainment world, the damage was relatively small.
Hand him the keys to the Kingdom, and I knew, going in, the damage would be colossal.
That said . . . as horrifically bad as I thought he was going to be, I have to admit he’s exceeded my worst fears by a thousand fold.
Billy_TParticipantIt’s a story that makes Trump look bad, since (as it goes) he did not take the info seriously. Why wouldn’t someone in the administration just go “naw they made that up.”
Did Russians put bounties on Americans in Afghanistan? Sure, probably. Heck when the Soviets were there, the USA gave the Afghanis “Man-portable air-defense systems” (that’s a real thing) to take out those heavy, built like a tank helicopters of theirs (the “end of Red Dawn” type helicopters). Al Qaeda, at least partly funded by the USA, was originally formed as a group dedicated to attacking Soviets in Afghanistan.
So why wouldn’t the Russians do the budget version and just pay bounties.
Yep. That’s my take/question(s) too. Same thing with election interference and Trump’s collusion with Russia. Given what we know about the United States’ history of its own shenanigans along these lines, all over the globe, and far worse . . . and the fact that Putin thought Clinton tried to stop him from being reelected, why wouldn’t Russia continue playing hardball geopolitics against America?
When haven’t we gone back and forth when it comes to Spy versus Spy stuff, or (again) much worse? It actually doesn’t make any sense whatsoever to assume Russia wouldn’t respond, or initiate, or defend, or go on offense . . . At this point, who knows who started this garbage, and after more than a century, does that even really matter now?
(For what it’s worth, I think we (and the West) likely started it, as far back as 1905 at least, escalating it in 1917, backing the White Russians after that, etc. etc. But there’s plenty of blame to go around from that point on.)
Billy_TParticipantWV,
I think your “agnostic” stance is a good one. It’s smart to avoid instant judgments. Hesitation, skepticism, being circumspect, waiting for more evidence, etc. That’s just being smart.
Probably why you’ve been so effective at helping your clients for so long.
Thing is, unless I read them wrong, when it comes to Russia and Trump, especially, the Mate, Greenwald, Blumenthal folks aren’t agnostic at all. They just start out assuming it’s all nonsense and try to build their case from there. And they never admit to their errors afterward.
Time and time again the Trump administration, his cronies, and subsequent investigations all end up proving he/they actually did the things our MSM reported. Boiled down, it ends up being the case that 95-99% of what the MSM reported about Trump and company was true. If anything, they tend to undercount the atrocities.
How do we end up knowing this, in most cases? Trump himself, or his cronies, finally end up admitting this or that happened . . . of course, after going through various defensive/offensive stages, from angry denials, to bullying, to lashing out at the media and his political opponents (which tend to never stop); to saying, Yeah, some of that happened, but not the other stuff; to, Yeah, it all happened, but it wasn’t illegal; to, Yeah, it happened but it doesn’t mean anything cuz everyone does it!!
In the case of the Russian Bounties, Trump’s own spokeswoman, Kayleigh McEnany said this week that Trump was briefed on the subject, but that there wasn’t a consensus among the Intel community. That’s supposedly why they haven’t acted yet.
That already makes Mate and Blumenthal wrong on this issue.
Billy_TParticipantTo (mercifully) wrap up, I’ve always found it incredibly illogical, if not irrational, to assume that the United States is the only nation capable of interfering around the world to one degree or another. Violently, lethally, or with non-violent and non-lethal means. Elections, wars, the economy, propaganda of one sort or another — we’re not the only nation that does this. Coups, assassinations, renditions, attempts to annex this or that, etc. When I watch or read the Mates, Blumenthals, Greenwalds and company, it’s hard not to conclude they think we are alone.
My own take is that, yes, the United States has committed barbarous acts, for a long, long time. We’ve discussed them here, of course. I learned more details in recent years reading books like The End of the Myth, How to Hide an Empire, The Divide, and so on. But we aint alone. Empires do this shit all the time. All of them. There are no exceptions. And Russia is an empire, with the largest land mass of any on earth, and it’s run by the richest oligarch in the world. I have no idea why some people seem to think they can’t be engaging in horrific acts, or that Trump isn’t beholden to them, or to automatically assume it’s all just a conspiracy to take Trump down to even put it in the news.
Update on the story:
Billy_TParticipantIf Russia is in the news, especially if the news is about Russia and Trump, it can’t be true, apparently — if we’re to believe Mate and company. It must be yet another (unsubstantiated) plot of the Dems, the Intel community — which Trump controls — and media all over the globe. It can never, evah be factual, and the only motives we should ever question are Democrats, their donors and the non-Trump-besotted media. We shouldn’t ever question the motives of far-right Putin or the far-right Russian state. They’re angels!! They’re always perfectly innocent!! They would never think of doing anything like this!!
;>)
Me? I think it makes far more sense to keep the skepticism meter on high for everyone, including Mate, Blumenthal and company. I don’t trust them automatically, either. I’m skeptical of mainstream and Internet niche sources . . . etc. etc.
Gotta corroborate, verify, use our own common sense, see the patterns, etc. etc. IMO, the (decade’s long) pattern of Trump’s connections with, and exploitation by, Putin, are too numerous and consistent to dismiss.
Billy_TParticipantWV,
(breaking my response into three parts)
I managed to get through roughly eight minutes, but couldn’t handle Blumenthal’s absurdist time traveling and illogic beyond that. Nor could I deal with Mate’s broad-brushing either.
Citing a CIA officer from 40 years ago as his “proof” that all this is is yet another sinister hookup between our media and the CIA? IMO, he has nothing to support his instant dismissal — as was the case with his coverage of Russiagate — other than knee-jerk, autopilot assumptions. Could they be true? Sure. But where is his evidence?
Rather than even entertain the possibility that Russia could have done this, or that Putin has a hold on and exploits Trump, the Mate, Blumenthal, Greenwald crew automatically dismiss it all, immediately, as yet another supposed conspiracy by you know who.
June 28, 2020 at 1:26 pm in reply to: Rightwing violent-fringe, rightwing conspiracy theories, etc. #117277
Billy_TParticipantRelated:
And this, from America’s most dangerous AG in generations:
June 26, 2020 at 5:15 p.m. EDT Attorney General William P. Barr on Friday directed the formation of a task force that will be dedicated to countering “anti-government extremists,” escalating federal law enforcement’s response to the violence that has sometimes marked nationwide protests against police brutality and racism, according to a memo obtained by The Washington Post. In the memo, Barr wrote that amid peaceful demonstrations, anti-government extremists had “engaged in indefensible acts of violence designed to undermine public order.”
Obviously, when Barr talks about “extremists,” he’s referring to we leftists, not right-wingers who actually commit nearly 99% of the violence. Egged on by Trump and right-wing media, he’s referring primarily to “antifa,” which Trump and company could decide is pretty much any dissenters they don’t like.
We’re in political hell, folks, along with pandemical hell.
June 28, 2020 at 10:38 am in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117265
Billy_TParticipantCal,
We just see this differently. Even the quote you posted strikes me as a direct focus on “right-populist” leaders, those in power, not the average Joe or Jane. The context of his writings furthers that interpretation, because he keeps emphasizing how the movement is a fraud BECAUSE of how those leaders screw over their own base. In no place do I read him advocating for any kind of shunning or ignoring everyday folk. He’s even in favor of direct debate with those leaders. His thing is that it’s absurd to think we need those leaders or should try to form coalitions with right-wingers in power.
In power is the key here for Robinson and most leftists, including me.
Also, Sanders isn’t “the leader of the left.” He’s the lone independent lefty in DC. But I think it’s safe to say most leftists — again, including me — don’t see him as pushing nearly far enough for radical egalitarian and inclusive change.
As to Cuba. His points were valid, though it will go on deaf ears, given the absurd amount of demonizing Americans have received about that tiny little island we’ve crucified for generations. They actually do have superior programs in some areas, like health care and some educational programs. The United States doesn’t have to — nor should it — embrace the Castro regime in order to learn from things they do better than we do . . . and that can be said for nations all over the world. This or that area, issue, method, strategy, etc. Again, we don’t have to embrace any sort of wholesale ideology from others, but we can take best practices from other parts of the world when they do better on this or that than we do. And, frankly, especially from the 1970s on, there is very, very little we do better than the rest of the world, beyond starting wars, generating more and more inequality, and destroy the environment. We have a ton to learn from others all over the globe.
Billy_TParticipantWasn’t really sure the best place to post this to not start a new thread.
This makes me ask, for the billionth time, what will it take for people to finally, absolutely condemn, reject and rid themselves of this evil, sadistic, little sociopath?
Excerpt:
By
Joshua Partlow and
Josh Dawsey
June 27, 2020 at 3:05 p.m. EDTIn the hours before his rally in Tulsa, President Trump’s campaign directed the removal of thousands of “Do Not Sit Here, Please!” stickers from seats in the arena that were intended to establish social distance between rallygoers, according to video and photos obtained by The Washington Post and a person familiar with the event.
The removal contradicted instructions from the management of the BOK Center, the 19,000-seat arena in downtown Tulsa where Trump held his rally on June 20. At the time, coronavirus cases were rising sharply in Tulsa County, and Trump faced intense criticism for convening a large crowd for an indoor political rally, his first such event since the start of the pandemic.
As part of its safety plan, arena management had purchased 12,000 do-not-sit stickers for Trump’s rally, intended to keep people apart by leaving open seats between attendees. On the day of the rally, event staff had already affixed them on nearly every other seat in the arena when Trump’s campaign told event management to stop and then began removing the stickers, hours before the president’s arrival, according to a person familiar with the event who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal matters.
June 27, 2020 at 4:19 pm in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117214
Billy_TParticipantOh, and forgot to mention a huge, huge issue:
Health care. As we speak, the Trump administration is arguing before the Supreme Court to gut the ACA, which would literally throw tens of millions of Americans off their health care programs — in the middle of a pandemic. I haven’t heard a single Republican say this is wrong, much less sadistic beyond belief.
I’ve been arguing with mainstream Dems for years about how much the ACA fell short, and how the Dems were chickenshits for not going for M4A. But compared with the GOP alternative, it’s heaven sent. Medicaid expansion, for example, literally saves countless American lives and keeps people from being thrown out of their homes and into the streets. That’s not hyperbole. I know this for a fact. And in the middle of a pandemic, when tens of millions of Americans have lost their jobs, which means they’ve lost their insurance, the GOP is trying to kill all of that, along with protections for pre-existing conditions. Again, this is flat out sadism, and I don’t hear a peep from Republicans saying it’s even wrong.
Throw in the overall response to the pandemic, compare the Dems with the GOP on that crises . . . and it’s even more clear that we don’t have any real common ground with the right.
Hope all is well, WV.
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This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by
Billy_T.
June 27, 2020 at 4:12 pm in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117213
Billy_TParticipantAnyway . . . would be interested in your take on this, or if you just think I’m misreading the Greenwalds and company:
Listening to them, one would think that the only place “progressives” can find allies on important issues is on the right. We can’t work with “corporate Dems,” apparently, and must go to the Rand Pauls and the Mike Lees if we want to accomplish our goals. This is yet another view that baffles me, given the record on most issues via Congress and the Executive.
I checked on the people who voted against the Iraq War, for instance:
126 House Dems voted No. Just 6 Republicans did that. In the Senate, it was far more disappointing, but the breakdown was still considerably in favor of the Dems: 21 Dems, just 1 Republican, and 1 Indie.
And votes in favor of more tax cuts for the rich and corporate America are consistently along party lines, with close to all Dems saying No, and pretty much all Repugs saying Yes. The Environment? When was the last time a Republican voted to preserve land, or regulate pollution, or even admit that Climate Change is real?
The Dems, for all their faults and failures (which are legion), now have a party platform that includes a hike in the minimum wage to $15, some form of Medicare for all, or a pathway to it, free tuition for two-year colleges, with a pathway to four-year, etc. etc. They’ve always been better on Civil Rights by light years, as well as Civil Liberties, and are far less into Big Gubmint Law and Order shiite than the GOP — especially against migrants and dissenters in general. Their position on immigration is at least relatively sane.
They never go far enough, of course. They don’t come close to that. But the GOP is consistently, aggressively cruel on all issues. The Dems aren’t.
To me, leftists self-evidently are closer in ideals, principles, world-view and policies to the Dems than the GOP. Not close, but closer. There’s at least a fighting chance to click here and there with them on Big Ticket items. I don’t see that happening with righties, beyond lip service, or beyond their heavily funded attempts to get us to just give up, stay home, and indirectly help the GOP win more elections.
June 27, 2020 at 4:06 pm in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117212
Billy_TParticipantWell, I’m not sure who is ‘using’ who. Krystal Ball is becoming a mega-star on the internetz. I see this show as a stepping stone for her. In time she will have her own show, etc. I think she knows that. The show has given her (a leftist) a platform. Thats a good thing for the left in the long run.
Second, it sounds like you are totally discounting one of her major points — Ie, Rightwingers live in bubbles (just like leftwingers and centrists). The show gives rightwingers their only chance to actually hear progressive talk. Perhaps that will translate into something good down the road as we see more and more close elections. I dunno.
I think Nathan makes important points and I’m glad he’s making them. Gives everyone a chance to think about all this stuff. I’ve heard the same type criticism about Cornell West, btw. “He should have nothing to do with Fox News” etc. Bernie also got criticized for doing Fox shows.
Basically I think these dynamics carry pros and cons. They carry both, in my view.
You and Nathan see it as totally negative. I see it as having pros and cons and unknowns.I suspect in general ‘rightwing populism’ is indeed a ‘fraud’ as you call it but I also think there is contested ground around the edges. And in close elections, who knows how this all plays out. I dont know. Politics is messy.
I dont have any final answers or finished-thots on this.
w
vYeah, politics iz way messy. :>)
Hope Krystal does get her own show, on her own terms, and no longer has to work for a rich-guy Trump supporter, etc.
But is it really the case that The Rising is the only place righties can hear progressives? Are you saying they basically never take it upon themselves to venture outside their own bubble, ever? Or read outside it? I kinda question that, given years and years of debating with rabid righties on all kinds of different forums, including the “progressive” kind.
(Splitting this into two, to make it easier to answer)
June 27, 2020 at 11:40 am in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117200
Billy_TParticipantAnother big ol’ irony here:
In order to appeal to the right, the left would have to move closer to them on the issues. As in, to the center! To be more appealing to right-wingers, we’d have to be more like Biden!
;>)
One of the biggest reasons why any “center” exists at all is to try to appeal to both the left and the right simultaneously. What magical force will enable the left to remain where we are, while gaining converts from the right the center can’t reach? It’s like someone in California saying “I’m actually closer to people in Virginia than if I were in Kansas!”
It simply defies all logic to assume the left can appeal to the right by remaining true to our own principles, ideals, philosophy and policy agenda. There wouldn’t be a right and a left if that were possible.
We need to remember that right-wingers think they are right on all the above, and that we’re dead wrong. Why in the world would we think they’d join forces with us without our moving substantially away from our own beliefs and toward theirs, etc. etc.?
June 27, 2020 at 11:20 am in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117199
Billy_TParticipantHey, Cal,
Hope all is well.
Robinson isn’t talking about Trump voters, when he talks about the supposed “populist right,” and he doesn’t try to “define” those voters. He’s talking about those in power, which includes Trump, and the fraud they consistently perpetrate on those voters. Compare, for instance, Trump’s deeds to his rhetoric and the fraud is beyond obvious. Compare his deeds to virtually any president in the last 100 years (or more), and no one comes close to his deadly and destructive actions, or his lies.
And Robinson reiterated in the interview that he favors working with anyone who honestly seeks better working class/environmental policy, etc. He never said otherwise. He’s just realistic/perceptive enough to see that you don’t find that on the right, beyond extremely rare outliers, in extremely rare cases . . . and he rightfully asks what concessions do we have to make in order for them to join us. Greenwald and Ball seem to avoid the issue of concessions like the plague.
Speaking for myself, I truly don’t see the need for “the left” to court anyone on the right. At all. It makes zero sense to me. The left of center “base” is larger (and ascendant), numerically, than the one on the right (which is dying out), and elections in a polarized nation are won via the highest “base” turnout. Appeal to our own base, get them excited enough to come out to vote, and we have next to zero need for right of center voters. And whenever the Dems try too hard to court supposedly disaffected right-wingers, that inevitably turns off too many left of center voters, for good reason. That’s exactly what happened when Clinton tried to peel off Republicans in 2016. More than 100 million voters stayed home, disgusted with both choices.
In short, we don’t need the right, and I, personally, find their ideology beyond repugnant. I think it’s long past time that we stand on our own, make our own case, and stop trying to form coalitions with our natural enemies.
June 27, 2020 at 9:06 am in reply to: ‘capitalism requires inequality racism enshrines it’: Race in the USA #117189
Billy_TParticipantThere have been non-capitalist nations which also had racism.
I see them as intertwining issues in this historical moment, not as logically inevitably determined a certain way.
It’s complicated, but we differ a bit on this. Not absolutely, but mostly. Capitalism actually required racism to enable its original “primitive accumulation” stage . . . when it ransacked, enslaved, committed genocide against, black and brown peoples all over the globe during the so-called Age of Discovery — and then throughout the Colonial Period. Of course, primitive accumulation never ended, but it was necessary to kick-start the system and extend capital accumulation beyond the realm of the aristocracy.
The invention of racism gave it (capitalism) cover to steal, enslave, wipe out those who failed to “improve” their lands . . . which to people like Locke, meant eschewing “profit.” The initial (European) philosophical/legal concept of “private property” made implicit the requirement of “improvement,” or it was deemed legit to hand that property over to those who would. It gave cover to endless “enclosures” all around the world. Though different historians have different first dates and locales for this, it’s safe to say the main nexus was Britain . . . though the Dutch and all the colonial powers were key as well.
I’d also argue that there are no non-capitalist nations anymore, so it’s next to impossible to find a control group now. It’s a capitalist world. We don’t really have any examples of racist, non-capitalist nations . . . and the vast majority of non-capitalist nations were non-white prior to being assimilated into the Borg. I’d also argue that the only “white” nations that remained non-capitalist for a time, once capitalism started its ascent, were colonies. Ironically, the US, prior to the Civil War, and Ireland for a time.
June 27, 2020 at 8:41 am in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117187
Billy_TParticipantI think Robinson is spot on when he says “right-populism” is a fraud. When you break down the actual deeds, context, details, and the massive internal contradictions, they don’t share ground with us.
And zooming out some more:
Isn’t it rather naive, if not arrogant, to assume that self-identified right-wingers have leftist views on economics? They’d never vote Republican if they did. And they’d attack and condemn Republican leaders, constantly, if they did, especially Trump. I don’t see or hear them doing that. The rank and file vote Republicans into power, year after year after year, while condemning “the left,” while repeating fear-mongering against the “radical left.” One would think they wouldn’t do that, at all, if there was supposedly this “common ground” and unity of purpose arrayed against “the Establishment.”
And in DC? Why is it next to never that we read or hear of a Republican rep bucking the party? Or Trump, the head of the party? Or, McConnell, the majority leader? And that includes the supposed mavericks like Lee and Paul. Paul, the so-called “libertarian,” is one of Trump’s biggest enablers, supporters, defenders.
In short, I think Ball and Greenwald, among other lefty media figures, have a major blind spot on this topic, and strike me as either dangerously naive or just plain ignorant. They’re being used. At the moment, I don’t want to entertain another possibility, but it sits in one of the corners of my mind, regardless.
June 27, 2020 at 8:27 am in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117186
Billy_TParticipantI hope WV and others jump in and express their views here.
A few quick questions/comments, regarding the Intercept’s addition to the debate:
1. Why overlook the rather important aspect of “the devil’s in the details,” and “context” when it comes to these rare cases of “progressives” working with “right-populists? As in, Rand Paul voted for massive tax cuts for the rich and corporate America. He always does. Why does Greenwald think it’s some triumph of this (supposed) new coalition when he — or any other Republican — says they oppose them in the case of Amazon’s HQ in NYC?
Or, when a lone Republican says we shouldn’t escalate X, Y or Z war, battle, bombing, drone strike, but votes yes for 99% of the rest of them, and says nothing about Trump’s endless escalations and threats?
2. And I’m puzzled by the claim that Biden, apparently, single-handedly is responsible for the Iraq War, and our current penal code, even though he never had the power to make either thing happen. He had a vote in the Senate. Last time I checked, it takes more than 50, and it was the Bush administration that decided to invade Iraq, etc. By all means, condemn him for his Yes vote. But Greenwald and Ball need to stop with the hyperbole, especially if they want others to stop including Hitler and Mussolini in with right-populists . . . which is actually an historically and factually accurate thing to do.
3. I think Robinson just crushed GG in the interview, though NR is far, far better in print. But I wish he would have asked Greenwald several questions. Like, why does he think progressives can’t work with Dems on things like civil liberties and police reform, and can only do so with a few lone Republicans? Even those hated corporatist Dems have far better records on those issues.
Also, The Rising appears to spend the vast majority of its time attacking those corporatist Dems. If there truly is “common ground” between the left and right forms of populism, wouldn’t they spend at least — at least — an equal amount of time going after Trump and the Republican establishment? If the problem is corporate-owned party establishments, wouldn’t Ball and Enjeti work together to go after both parties?
They don’t. It’s primarily a vehicle to go after the Dem establishment.
The attacks and the critique of that establishment are warranted. But the imbalance aids and abets the GOP. Of the two major parties, which is the one we leftists should be most concerned about currently? It aint the Dems. IMO, we should work to demolish the GOP and situate ourselves as the opposition to the rightful “conservative” party, the Dems.
June 27, 2020 at 8:06 am in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117183
Billy_TParticipantGlenn Greenwald added to the debate, with separate interviews of Nathan Robinson and Krystal Ball.
In his intro, and subsequent questioning, he makes it pretty clear which way he leans, etc.
June 27, 2020 at 8:01 am in reply to: ‘capitalism requires inequality racism enshrines it’: Race in the USA #117181
Billy_TParticipantCapitalism requires inequality. Definitely true. And on a scale no previous economic system ever came close to. There can be no effective, sufficient “capital accumulation” by capitalists without it. By definition. If that capital is shared in such a way that it dilutes concentration, it won’t work. It’s just math. And the higher the degree of concentration, the bigger the gap must be. And when just three humans — right now, Bezos, Gates and Zuckerberg — hold as much wealth as the bottom half of America combined . . . . that gap is beyond Twilight Zone levels.
So racism kicks in in conscious and unconscious ways. Unconsciously, it helps “white people” ignore the massive gaps, because they don’t always see them, at least not directly, or what they see becomes a “norm” that they’ve become numb to. Black and brown people making far, far less, or working temp jobs, or waiting for buses and trucks to take them to dangerous, back-breaking precariot jobs, or in far away nations, etc. Or, simply unemployed. An army of surplus and radically low paid workers is absolutely necessary, or capitalism can not function. They enable “decent, middle class wages” for white people, as well as massive riches for the financial elites.
Overt racism helps “white people” manage via “they don’t deserve to make a decent living” or some variation. Or, worse. “Screw them! I got mine!” even for the white folks who really don’t. Their sense of “I got mine” is really “I’m superior to them cuz I’m not as bad off,” etc. etc. And then throw in the police, “law and order” issues, and the wild divergence of how people are “managed” by the authorities, and this sense of superiority deepens.
Capitalism needs enemies as well as inequality . . . so furiners and POCs and we leftists take on that role for it. It also needs, ironically, a decent percentage of “successful” POCs (and women) to prevent a mass rebellion. It’s still too early in the morning for me to express how leftists fit into the mix, exactly, as far as the racist safety valve goes . . . . but it’s there, somewhere.
Hope others jump in and discuss this further too.
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This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by
Billy_T.
June 25, 2020 at 5:00 pm in reply to: updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . . #117114
Billy_TParticipantWV,
Does The Rising see “right-populism” in the same way as Kulinski?
He said there are right-populists who support:
Medicare for All
Unions
A living wageAgain, I’ve never bumped into one in any context or format, and it seems to go wildly against the right’s hatred of any public sector program replacing a private sector one . . . or adding regulations to businesses. But, I suppose pigs do fly in parallel universes.
Anyway . . . what’s your take on that? Is he, perhaps, being far too broad in his definition(s)? What is “right-wing” about those three policy ideas, or the purpose behind them?
Billy_TParticipantThere’s another pandemic we need to worry about, besides Covid-19:
The pandemic of abject stupidity, ignorance, paranoia and selfishness.
Wearing masks, apparently, is the devil’s work, and goes against god’s plan, etc. etc.
Business Insider Residents of Palm Beach, Florida, erupted at a town meeting after masks were made mandatory. Twitter users were quick to compare the intense backlash to an episode of Parks and Recreation. rperper@businessinsider.com (Rosie Perper) 14 hrs ago
This would be “funny” if it didn’t literally cause death and horrible sickness. And it’s not the kind of thing that some could just give out a Darwin Award and move on, like, “Hold my beer while I wrestle that alligator, Bubba!!”
Being dead set against wearing masks endangers everyone, including those of us who can’t be gaslit by right-wing demagogues. And I fear this has spread too far for the head demagogue to stop it, even if he wanted to, and he doesn’t.
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This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by
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