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AgamemnonParticipant
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AgamemnonParticipant
AgamemnonParticipantOctober 3, 2015 at 8:49 pm in reply to: Wagoner: Run-first Rams' struggle go beyond the basics #31658
AgamemnonParticipanti just want gurley and mason to be awesome. preferably starting against arizona.
I would guess that Gurley is the reason they are shaping the running strategy the way they are.
October 3, 2015 at 7:44 pm in reply to: Wagoner: Run-first Rams' struggle go beyond the basics #31652
AgamemnonParticipant
AgamemnonParticipantRams Trade Givens to Ravens
Posted 3 hours ago
Myles Simmons Rams Insider @MylesASimmons
The Rams have made another roster move this week, trading wide receiver Chris Givens to the Ravens for a conditional draft pick.
A former fourth-round pick in the 2012 draft, Givens was one of the Ramsâ leading receivers through his first two years in the league. But production tailed off last year, with the wideout making only 11 receptions for 159 yards and a touchdown. Through three contests this year, Givens had only one receptions for seven yards and a 24-yard end around against the Steelers last week.
St. Louis now has a roster spot open, which may or may not be filled for this weekâs contest as the Rams must get down to their 46-man gameday roster.
AgamemnonParticipantRams getting a 2017 7th rounder for Chris Givens from Ravens. Givens in contract year, hadn't played much this year: 42 snaps/three games.
— Nick Wagoner (@nwagoner) October 3, 2015
October 3, 2015 at 1:49 pm in reply to: Wagoner: Run-first Rams' struggle go beyond the basics #31618
AgamemnonParticipantI am just fine with drafting a bunch of linemen this year. I am fine with starting rookies. I think it will pay off.
I am not satisfied that they did the best they could to get them ready for this year. They could have settled the composition of the line much sooner. It was like we are going to try every possible configuration before we try the optimal configuration. Why not try the optimal configuration first? I also think the starters should have played more in preseason. I think all preseason, Robinson, Brown, and Havenstein had less than 50 snaps each.
The test of all this will be what the OL can do in the second half of the season. imo
AgamemnonParticipantLets go back to before football started this year. Givins was on the books for 1.5M, Pead for almost 1M. They both were scheduled to be URFAs next year. They both are the 5th player on the depth chart at their position. In a way I am slightly surprised that they lasted this long. We get a future 7th rounder. That isn’t much, but it is something.

That is enough to work on signing a future FA.
Givins is probably the roster space for Watts after the Arizona game.
AgamemnonParticipantArizona scouts unearthed lots of small college gold, including wide receiver John Brown (Pittsburgh State), offensive tackle Jared Veldheer (Hillsdale College)
Veldheer was selected by the Oakland Raiders in the third round (69th overall) of the 2010 NFL Draft. At the conclusion of the 2010 preseason, he was named Oakland’s starting center, beating out veteran Samson Satele.[2] However, after the first game, Veldheer was moved back to offensive tackle, replaced at center by Satele for the rest of the season, and began sharing time with veteran Mario Henderson.[3] By midseason, Veldheer had supplanted Henderson to become the Raiders’ full-time starting left tackle.[4] On opening day of the 2011 NFL season, he started at left tackle next to rookie Stefen Wisniewski and the offensive line cleared the way for 190 rushing yards and a victory over the Denver Broncos.
Arizona CardinalsOn March 11, 2014, Veldheer signed a five-year, $35 million contract with the Arizona Cardinals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Veldheer
These guys get paid. They should get their facts right.
October 2, 2015 at 5:37 pm in reply to: Rams are better off than you think: An extensive St. Louis cap analysis #31578
AgamemnonParticipant
AgamemnonParticipantAnd RB Chase Reynolds (knee) who hopes to be back for Green Bay and did a lot of work on the side this week is officially listed as doubtful
— Jim Thomas (@jthom1) October 2, 2015
AgamemnonParticipantWell, the weapons are all active now: Gurley and Quick.
Maybe itâll make a difference.
Should be a good game.
w
vLess targets for Cook and Kendricks? Pass to set up the run?
AgamemnonParticipantRams cut Brandon McGee promote S Christian Bryant
BryantâŚinteresting.
Probably cause they want the help on STeams. Bryant is good on STeams and Alexander is out for the next game.
With Alexander out, the newly promoted (from practice) squad Christian Bryant could be active and have a role on special teams Sunday.
— Jim Thomas (@jthom1) October 2, 2015
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This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by
Agamemnon.
AgamemnonParticipantTo fill Bryant's spot on practice squad, the Rams have signed CB Eric Patterson (Ball State) who was in camp w/Indy and w/Pats in offseason
— Jim Thomas (@jthom1) October 2, 2015
October 2, 2015 at 11:22 am in reply to: JT w/ Frank Cusumano on CBS Sports 920 AM – more JT wo/ Frank #31554
AgamemnonParticipantSegment 2 – JT on Kroenke & more
Friday, October 02, 2015 8:09 AM
The Son of Daddy Butter brings us back into segment, Post-Dispatch Rams reporter Jim Thomas joins the program to discuss his article about the relationship between Stan Kroenke and Chargers owner Dean Spanos, will this article affect the owner’s meeting next week? What are the chances Spanos is forced to team up with Kroenke by the NFL? Jim’s thoughs on what Bill Simmons had to say on the Rams going to LA and the lone AFC team left out will come to St louis, does anybody really know what is actually going to happen? Is there a possibility that the stadium situation goes into the begining of the 2016 season? JT thoughts on Tyrann Mathieu’s comments on the Rams should win the Super Bowl every year, breaking down the NFC West teams, how do the Rams improve their offense? Rams have been a huge disappointment the last two weeks after their big win against Seattle, how much of the blame is on the play calling? Why is Jeff Fisher never on the hot seat?Football starts at ~19:00
AgamemnonParticipant
AgamemnonParticipantI am a talent guy.
Can you expand on that?
Apart from the Rams this year, I am interested in what seems to be a view that sees talent level as being the most important determining factor. Iâd appreciate a general argument for that perspective.
Ok. Talent can equal many things.
Most generally, someone who can make a play, especially a game changing play. In the game of football, a player that can score a TD or get a TO.
A player can be physically and athletically superior.
A player can be mentally superior, this is most associated with QBs. imo
Another thing, which is more of an acquired talent, is how long can you play well. At the highest levels, what separates good players from better players is simply, how long can you play well. How many good plays can you do in a row or how many plays can you go without making a mistake.
That is about all I feel like writing rfl. I don’t make long posts. đ
I guess I should say something about coaching. Good coaching can be a positive 20%. Talent is 80%. Those are my numbers. But a good foreman can increase production about 20 %. I read that somewhere and it makes sense to me.
Coaching can speed up learning, but it can’t make someone smarter.
And the old sort of truism, Good players make coaches smarter.
Thought experiment. How many different coaches could be the Rams DC and the Rams defense still be expected to be a top 10 defense?
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This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by
Agamemnon.
AgamemnonParticipantI am a talent guy. I think we have playoff talent. I think that counts more than any other element.
Top 10 Defense, top 10 Special Teams, middle of the pack Offense(in the second half of the season).
I can’t decide yet if I think Fisher and Co. is a B- or a C+. Either way I don’t see coaching as better or worse than the rest of the league, so I just figure they cancel out in the area of helping us win or lose more games.
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This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by
Agamemnon.
AgamemnonParticipant
AgamemnonParticipantIn general, I tend to agree with everything in that first article.
Oftentimes, those âgo for it, or dontâ decisions
dont really decide the game though. Its usually
the three obvious things:
Execution
Talent
Turnoversw
vw
vMaximizing your decisions is something you can do all the time. It is compliments the other parts of the game. Execution, Talent, TOs, etc.
Maximizing your decisions could well add 3-7 points to your score over what not maximizing could give you.
This is really about what happens after your 3 obvious things have gotten you to a decision point and the game outcome could hang on your decision. imo
AgamemnonParticipantThat is probably the best MATH out there for going for it, kicking a FG, or punting.
Here are a couple things that apply across all games, not just football and that can trump incremental advantages in percentages.
If it is 4th and goal and you haven’t scored yet, kick the FG. You need to get on the scoreboard.
If a play can lose the game and not win it, it is a bad play.
If a play can win the game, it is almost always a good decision to go for it.
You need to be comfortable with your decision. For those times when it is almost too close to call, go with what feels right to you.
It pays to be aggressive. Almost all players could benefit from being more aggressive. If you are not comfortable with this, you may never be able to use it to your advantage.
That is all for now. đ
AgamemnonParticipant
AgamemnonParticipanthttps://twitter.com/NYT4thDownBot
Itâs 4th-and-8 for the Packers from the Chiefsâ 46. I would go for it.
— NYT 4th Down Bot (@NYT4thDownBot) September 29, 2015
AgamemnonParticipanthttp://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2013/11/28/fourth-downs/post.html#how-wp-is-calculated
How Coaches and the NYT 4th Down Bot Compare
By Brian Burke and Kevin QuealyEven the boldest N.F.L. coaches can turn timid on fourth down. When a team fails to pick up enough yards on third down, coaches are faced with a few options. They can decide to kick the ball (by either punting or attempting a field goal) or they can decide to go for it. Going for it is risky â if they fail, they risk ridicule by every TV analyst, armchair quarterback and cabdriver in the country. Kicking is the safe, more conventional choice.

But is it the right one?
Thatâs where NYT 4th Down Bot comes in. It evaluates whether an N.F.L. team should punt, attempt a field goal or go for it on fourth down, in any situation. To make its decision, NYT 4th Down Bot uses a model developed by Brian Burke, founder of AdvancedNFLStats.com. According to the model (and thus, according to NYT 4th Down Bot), coaches are much more conservative than they should be.
NYT 4th Down Bot works on the premise that for most of the game, a coach should be trying to maximize the point spread between his team and his opponent â that is, scoring as many points as possible while suppressing his opponentâs opportunities for points. Later in the game, other factors come into play (more details on that below), but when the score is reasonably close in the first three quarters and early in the fourth, point maximization is the name of the game.
Here is a comparison of how a coach who truly maximizes points would behave on any fourth down anywhere on the field. On the right, the same chart showing how coaches have actually behaved since 2002.

The botâs recommendations may seem aggressive, but they are the results of an analysis of N.F.L. games since 2000, including the success rate of fourth-down attempts and the value of having the ball at different places on the field.
The difference is stark: coaches are much more conservative than they should be if they are truly trying to score as many points as possible. Too often, coaches forfeit the ball through a punt, for instance, when they have a solid chance to make a first down. The field position they gain from the punt is often not worth the missed opportunity to keep a drive going.
Perhaps the most common mistake coaches make is punting or kicking a field goal on fourth and only a few yards. Recent football history suggests teams should often go for it on fourth and short even deep inside their own half of the field. By punting, they guarantee the other team will have the ball with good field position. By going for it, they are risking giving their opponents fabulous field position â but with the potential reward of keeping the ball.
Obviously, the best strategy varies, depending on a team’s strengths and weaknesses. But the overall pattern seems clear: coaches are far too conservative.
How does NYT 4th Down Bot decide?
NYT 4th Down Bot uses thousands of N.F.L. plays since 2000 to calculate the average number of points each situation is worth, a measure called expected points. (Expected points and its application to fourth downs is not new. It was created in 1971 by former N.F.L. quarterback Virgil Carter and Robert E. Machol and has been improved and refined in various ways since, notably with the book âThe Hidden Game of Footballâ and David H. Romer’s signature 2002 paper. NYT 4th Down Bot’s model is similar to Mr. Romerâs, but has more seasons of data behind it.)
With about 10 minutes left in the fourth quarter, NYT 4th Down Bot switches from maximizing points to maximizing win percentage. Win percentage measures how often teams who punted, attempted a field goal or went for a first down won the game. (This measure is more useful later in the game because it is easier to measure the impact of a single play on a gameâs outcome.)
Um, expected points?The measure assigns a single point value to any game situation, based on how likely a team is to score from that field position. Below is a chart of expected points on an average first down, depending on where on the field the first down is.
Goal102030405040302010Goal-1.00+1.0+2.0+3.0+4.0+5.0+6.0Expected points on 1st and 10The chart is straightforward: the closer to the opponentâs end zone, the likelier it is a team will score. Near your own goal line, the expected points dips below zero: from that far back, your opponent is more likely to score next than you are. As you approach your opponentâs end zone, the expected points approach 7, the value of a touchdown and extra point.
How about an example?Consider a hypothetical situation of fourth-and-10 on your opponentâs 38-yard line.
Option 1: Field goal attempt
A field goal is worth 3 points, if itâs successful. But there is a catch: after scoring, you must kick off to your opponent, which, on average, will begin its drive on the 22-yard line. Judging from the chart above, a first-and-10 from your 22 is worth about 0.4 points. To NYT 4th Down Bot, a field goal is worth 3 points minus the cost of kicking off: 3 – 0.4 = 2.6 points. (Similarly, a touchdown and extra point is worth 7 – 0.4 = 6.6 points.)What if the kicker misses? Itâs a long field goal, about 55 yards, and the success rate of 55-yard field goals is only about 40 percent.
If the kick is no good, the opponent takes over on its 45-yard line. From our chart above, a first-and-10 from there is worth about 1.8 points. In this case, however, it is a first down for your opponent, so the point value from your perspective is â1.8 points.
NYT 4th Down Bot uses the expected points from success, the expected points from failure and the likelihood of each outcome to compute the net value of a decision.

On average, a 55-yard field goal attempt is worth -0.02 points.
Option 2: Go for it
Say you go for it and get the first down, but just barely â advancing the ball to your opponentâs 28. From our chart above, that is worth about 3.5 points. But if you fail, say, with an incomplete pass, your opponent takes over on its 38. Thatâs worth about -1.3 points to you.NYT 4th Down Botâs best estimate of success is about 35 percent, so going for it on fourth-and-10 from your opponentâs 38 is worth 0.36 points.

Option 3: Punt
Finally, you could punt. Even though there are good punts, bad punts and botched punts, punting does not succeed or fail â the ball just moves down the field and the opponent takes over.From the 38, the average net punt is about 24 yards, giving your opponent the ball at its own 14. From our chart above, that is worth +0.04 points for your opponent, or -0.04 points for you.
How do our choices compare?NYT 4th Down Bot looks at all three options and gives its recommendation: Go for it!
Option Expected points
Go for it +0.36 points
Punt â0.04 points
Field goal â0.10 pointsDoes that mean coaches should go for it every time they have a fourth-and-10 on their opponentâs 38? Not necessarily. If there is a strong tailwind, or the coach has a great kicker, he might adjust his estimate for making a field goal. If he has a Pro Bowl punter, the likelihood of pinning the opponent inside the 5-yard line might increase, which would boost the value of punting. But for an average fourth-and-10 from your opponentâs 38, NYT 4th Down Bot will recommend going for it every time.
But what about late in the game?When might a team prefer a strategy other than maximizing points? Certainly, as the end of the game nears, winning becomes more important than getting more points.
Here is another example: Say your team is down by 5 points with two minutes remaining. It is fourth-and-8 on the 50. Here is the table of expected points for that situation:
Option Expected points
Punt â0.26 points
Go for it â0.30 points
Field goal â2.49 pointsPunting and going for it are nearly equal options here, and if you only cared about point maximization, you might consider them as roughly equivalent. But in reality, if you do not score again, you lose. You need to go for it. NYT 4th Down Bot thinks so, too.
To calculate which decision gives a team the best shot at winning, it determines how often N.F.L. teams have won in relevant situations from several seasonsâ worth of games. Obviously, some situations are rarer than others, so when the sample is too small to make a reasonable calculation, NYT 4th Down Bot broadens its search a little.
But at its core, win percentage is a measure of how often teams in a certain situation can expected to win the game if they punt, attempt a field goal or go for it.
Letâs look at the calculations for win percentage in this situation:
Option Expected points Teams doing this would win…
Go for it â0.30 points 17% of the time
Punt â0.26 points 9% of the time
Field goal â2.49 points 4% of the timeIn general, things are not looking good for your team. You are probably going to lose. But going for it instead of punting nearly doubles the small chance you do have, to 17 percent from 9 percent.
Does NYT 4th Down Bot offer a rigid set of rules for how N.F.L. coaches should behave? No. It is, however, an argument that coaches could benefit from being bolder on fourth down.
When the 4th Down Bot Can Be Wrong
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The 4th Down Bot is, alas, not perfect. There are known situations that can confuse it. For example, the new overtime rules have not been in effect long enough for it to accumulate a large sample of past situations. At the moment, it bases all its recommendations in overtime using traditional sudden death rules.
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NYT 4th Down Bot may also be in error when there is an extreme mismatch in team strength. The estimates used by the underlying model are a baseline for league-average teams.
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Finally, on some occasions near the end of the first half, the value of kicking off is not as high, and the models may therefore undervalue the effect of scoring. Still, NYT 4th Down Bot can be relied on to make the best recommendations for the vast majority of situations.The Math Behind the Robot
NYT Fourth Down Bot is based on a statistical model created from more than 10 years of data from real NFL plays. Read more
Live Updates On Game Day
Second guess your teamâs coach in real time â follow NYT Fourth Down Bot on Twitter.
AgamemnonParticipantI am not talking about the defense specifically. I am talking about the entire philosophy of Fisherâs approach to the game. It brings with it certain pluses and minuses.
Fair enough.
If we just discuss the Defense against the Steelers, then I agree with Laram. Although I am more aggressive in philosophy as a general tenet. I won’t argue with success. đ
AgamemnonParticipantFisherâs style keeps the game close against the good teams and it keeps the games close against the bad teams.
A lot of the time it does that. But then they also held Denver to 7 points. And, mostly, holding a top offense to 12 points is not supposed to lead to a âclose game.â The Rams defense held the Seattle offense to 16 points. 16 points is only a close game with this offense.
The interesting thing is that I donât see the objections leading anywhere.
One objection is, it cuts down on Rams sacks. Rams are tied for 1st in the league in sacks.
Another problem I see with the arguments against the Rams approach is that no one balances it with a list of the drawbacks to press/man coverage. Instead they act like there are no drawbacks and therefore donât recognize that with defensive systems, youâre choosing your poison.
Another problem I see is that some say the Rams D is predictable. Yet no defense is more routine in its ways than Seattle, and they were #1 last year. Seattle doesnât fool you, Seattle says here we are try and beat what we do, and then outplays you. Itâs talent and execution.
It could actually be that the Wms. defense is a good one and that weâre all complaining for no good reason.
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I am not talking about the defense specifically. I am talking about the entire philosophy of Fisher’s approach to the game. It brings with it certain pluses and minuses. If you play to keep the game close, it can be a plus or a minus depending on if you are better than or equal to or worse than your opponent.
AgamemnonParticipantSeptember 29, 2015 at 6:50 pm in reply to: Rams sign Toon to PS, move McGee to reg roster, and cut Pead. #31430
AgamemnonParticipantRams release RB Pead, promote CB McGee
1 hour ago ⢠By Jim ThomasThe Isaiah Pead era â or more accurately “error” â is over. The Rams released Pead, chosen in the second round of the 2012 draft out of Cincinnati, on Tuesday.
The former Big East offensive player of the year never could translate his college success into the NFL. His totals as a Ram included only 19 carries for 78 yards, and 14 receptions for 94 yards.
He missed the entire 2014 season after suffering a knee injury in a preaseason game against Green Bay and was suspended for the first game of 2013 for violating the NFL’s substance abuse policy.
Pead showed some life with a strong showing in the Rams’ 2015 preseason finale against Kansas City, but for all intents sealed his fate with a costly fumble in the regular-season opener against Seattle.
The return to health of Todd Gurley and Tre Mason made Pead expendable at running back. In addition, Trey Watts is eligible to return to active duty following this week’s game against Arizona following a four-game NFL suspension.
The Rams replaced Pead on the active roster by promoting cornerback Brandon McGee from the practice squad. Wide receiver Nick Toon was added to the practice squad, taking McGee’s spot.
We’ll have more later.
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This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by
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