Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Rams Huddle › the Joyner, Harrison controversies
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November 8, 2015 at 5:31 pm #33786
nittany ramModeratorNovember 8, 2015 at 5:31 pm #33768znModeratorI don’t think Joyner intended to hurt him….that was actually kind of a freak thing. I do though think he tried to get away with looking like he didn’t intend to hit him. Though, I think it’s pretty obvious he went for a little contact. I doubt that’s coached. Zimmer however openly said it was dirty and mentioned (or kind of pointed to) bountygate.
November 8, 2015 at 5:31 pm #33766
wvParticipanti watched that Joyner play, and it did not
look to me, like Joyner bashed the QB with bad intentions.
Looked a lot worse than it was.
Looked to me like Joyner COULD have clobbered him
but instead just glanced off of him. Joyner
changed the angle of attack so as to ‘almost’
miss him completely. He shouldnt have touched
the QB at all, but I dont think he meant
to do any damage — i think he meant to just
strafe real close to him — but he grazed him
a little too much.watch it closely. What do yall think?
w
vNovember 8, 2015 at 5:39 pm #33767
AgamemnonModeratorBtw, i watched that Joyner play, and it did not
look to me, like Joyner bashed the QB with bad intentions.
Looked a lot worse than it was.
Looked to me like Joyner COULD have clobbered him
but instead just glanced off of him. Joyner
changed the angle of attack so as to ‘almost’
miss him completely. He shouldnt have touched
the QB at all, but I dont think he meant
to do any damage — i think he meant to just
strafe real close to him — but he grazed him
a little too much.watch it closely. What do yall think?
w
vYeah, I think he tried to pull off. But he hit him just enough tor his head to bounce on the turf and that is where he got dinged.
AgamemnonNovember 8, 2015 at 6:06 pm #33769znModeratorMike Zimmer isn’t pleased with the Rams
Mike Florio
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/category/rumor-mill/%5B/quote%5D
Vikings coach Mike Zimmer’s post-game press conference after Sunday’s win over the Rams started with a backhanded remark. And then it continued with a series of uppercuts.
Zimmer started his remarks by pointing out that the Vikings played “clean” on their side of the ball, an obvious slap at the elbow applied by Rams cornerback Lamarcus Joyner to the head of Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater. Zimmer then became more direct.
Zimmer pointed to the history of Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, who was suspended for a year due to the New Orleans bounty program that he initiated and maintained. The bounty scandal came to a head against the Vikings in the 2009 NFC title game, during which the Saints bruised and battered former Vikings quarterback Brett Favre.
Zimmer also said, “If we were on the street, we probably would have had a fight.”
Indeed, it almost looked like Zimmer was ready to throw down his headset and battery pack and mix it up after Joyner knocked Bridgewater out of the game. Zimmer called the blow a “cheap shot” in his press conference.
Bridgewater, who was knocked out for several seconds after the elbow hit his head and his head hit the ground, has a concussion. He’ll have to receive clearance from an independent neurologist to play at Oakland next week.
November 8, 2015 at 6:25 pm #33770
Eternal RamnationParticipantTeddy just ran for a td and a 2pt. conversion, What’s Joyner supposed to do meet him with some nice heated towels and ask “Will you be sliding or gashing us for another td this afternoon Mr. Bridgewater ? Teddy had five yards to seek protection he tried to get the marker. Joyner rolled over the top of him barely a hit at all. That’s the same announcer that was calling the Rams a dirty team this preseason. like for the whole second half. If Williams wanted to take Teddy out there are about 10 other guys out there that could’ve done a much better job. Hell if Teddy stiff armed Joyner who goes what a buck 80 he’d probably still be running
November 8, 2015 at 6:30 pm #33771Eternal RamnationParticipantBtw, i watched that Joyner play, and it did not
look to me, like Joyner bashed the QB with bad intentions.
Looked a lot worse than it was.
Looked to me like Joyner COULD have clobbered him
but instead just glanced off of him. Joyner
changed the angle of attack so as to ‘almost’
miss him completely. He shouldnt have touched
the QB at all, but I dont think he meant
to do any damage — i think he meant to just
strafe real close to him — but he grazed him
a little too much.watch it closely. What do yall think?
w
vI agree and Teddy had plenty of time to get down he was trying to make the marker.
November 8, 2015 at 7:33 pm #33774Eternal RamnationParticipantInteresting to hear Fisher’s take ,Zimmer sounds passive aggressive to me “if this were in the street there probably would’ve been a fight” Didn’t see him look for Williams didn’t want to talk to Fisher just get to the press conference and then start up like that ,what a baby,it’s not like they weren’t diving at Foles knees most of the game
November 8, 2015 at 9:17 pm #33784znModeratorMike Zimmer calls out Rams DC Gregg Williams after hit on QB Bridgewater
Ben Goessling
ESPN.comMINNEAPOLIS — Vikings coach Mike Zimmer did little to hide his feelings about the Rams’ defensive style of play Sunday, calling the hit that knocked quarterback Teddy Bridgewater out of the game a cheap shot in his postgame news conference.
Zimmer said the Rams went too far and pointed the finger at defensive coordinator Gregg Williams.
“I agree that it was a cheap shot,” Zimmer said on KFAN-FM, adding, “[Gregg Williams’] defenses are all like that.”
Bridgewater left the game with a concussion when St. Louis cornerback Lamarcus Joyner hit him in the fourth quarter, and he will have to clear the NFL’s concussion protocol to return for next Sunday’s game against the Oakland Raiders. Bridgewater appeared to be in good spirits in the locker room after Minnesota’s 21-18 win, but he had to be replaced by Shaun Hill. After the Vikings won the game in overtime, Zimmer kept walking as he quickly shook Rams coach Jeff Fisher’s hand.
“I didn’t have much to say to him,” Zimmer said in his postgame news conference. Then, when asked about the response of his players to the hit, the coach said, “If we were out in the street, we probably would’ve had a fight.”
Asked about the postgame handshake, Fisher said, “It was really quick, yeah. We’re not out to hurt anybody. It’s unfortunate. Teddy is playing really well, and Shaun came in and found a way to win a game for them. But it’s just part of the game. I’m disappointed that he went out, and I hope that he returns to play as soon as he can.”
Joyner said he did not try to hurt Bridgewater, adding: “I know that guy. I grew up across the railroad tracks from him. My mom knows his mom. My dad knows his mom. I would never intentionally do a dirty play like that on Teddy Bridgewater.
“It was a bam-bam play. He’s a taller stature guy compared to me, I did not know he was fixing to slide. When I launched, he slid and we connected. If I could take it back, personally, I will take it back because I’m not a dirty player. I wouldn’t want to take joy from his mom or his team. So was it intentional? Not at all. I can’t fix the problem with what’s going on and how they feel, but how I feel inside is not good.”
“
If we were out in the street, we probably would’ve had a fight.”- Vikings coach Mike Zimmer on his players’ reaction to the Rams’ hit on Teddy Bridgewater
A league source told ESPN.com Bridgewater was feeling good after the game, adding the quarterback was out to dinner with people close to him.On the series before Bridgewater was injured, he also took a low hit from Rams defensive end William Hayes, who was not called for a penalty because Bridgewater was out of the pocket when Hayes hit him.
Williams’ name already draws a strong reaction in Minnesota stemming from his role in the New Orleans Saints’ “Bountygate” scandal, which peaked in the 2010 NFC Championship Game when Saints players angered the Vikings with a number of low hits on quarterback Brett Favre. The game helped trigger an NFL investigation into the Saints’ conduct, and Williams was suspended for the 2012 NFL season.
Asked if the Rams were targeting Bridgewater on Sunday, Zimmer said: “I don’t know about that. I do know there is a history there with their defensive coordinator. I’ll leave it at that.
November 8, 2015 at 9:20 pm #33785
InvaderRamModeratorJoyner said he did not try to hurt Bridgewater, adding: “I know that guy. I grew up across the railroad tracks from him. My mom knows his mom. My dad knows his mom. I would never intentionally do a dirty play like that on Teddy Bridgewater.
i believe him. joyner comes across as a good guy. i believe he was just playing physical. nothing more. unless i find out something different.
November 8, 2015 at 9:28 pm #33787
lyserParticipantI think they are being fucking pussies. They called the foul. It happens. Fuck the Vikings. I love the nastiness of the Rams D, but for the most part they lay clean hits, within the rules. That hit was a foul and it was called and rightly so. Joyner could of fucked him up good though, but he layed off. Their coach is a little bitch.
November 8, 2015 at 10:30 pm #33790InvaderRamModeratorthat’s funny coming from rodney harrison.
nevertheless. there’s always going to be questions. especially from a gregg williams coached defense. but like i said before, i admire joyner. he came into this league with a good reputation. and i tend to believe that he wasn’t trying to be dirty.
November 8, 2015 at 11:04 pm #33791
ZooeyParticipantI agree with wv. It was not a dirty hit, but he could have made a greater effort to avoid the contact. It would have actually required contorting to avoid the contact, but he could have done it. It looked mostly like a natural hit. He could have contorted to avoid it, and he could have laid into him and knocked him into Tuesday.
20 years ago it wouldn’t have been a penalty at all. It was not egregious.
November 8, 2015 at 11:08 pm #33792ZooeyParticipantI cannot think of a player off the top of my head less entitled to call someone else out for playing dirty than Rodney Harrison.
November 8, 2015 at 11:14 pm #33794znModeratorNovember 8, 2015 at 11:48 pm #33795Eternal RamnationParticipantUnbelievably the sportscasters here are talking about investigating Williams for targeting.Unreal .We send are smallest slowest db out to take out Bridgewater yeah that’s logical.
November 9, 2015 at 9:45 am #33808znModeratorRams’ Lamarcus Joyner merits major NFL discipline for illegal shot
Kevin Seifert
The NFL has a thick rulebook and a detailed fine schedule, making it difficult to imagine how both won’t be used to issue a significant penalty this week to St. Louis Rams defensive back Lamarcus Joyner.
Joyner, of course, delivered the illegal shot that knocked Minnesota Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater unconscious Sunday at TCF Bank Stadium. I was shocked at how divided social media was on the play, but there seems no doubt to me that Joyner violated NFL rules protecting players who slide, and his hit caused Bridgewater’s concussion.
Depending on how the NFL classifies the infraction, Joyner will be fined at least $8,681, but likely more. If Bridgewater is deemed to have been a “defenseless player,” a term that seems created for the position he was in, Joyner’s minimum fine will be $23,152. Because he has no known history of such hits, Joyner is unlikely to be suspended.
Teddy Bridgewater
Teddy Bridgewater left Sunday’s game with a concussion after a hit from Lamarcus Joyner.Let’s take a closer look at the play. Bridgewater scrambled 5 yards for a first down and then initiated a feet-first slide with 13 minutes, 18 seconds remaining in the game. Joyner dove at him with his left forearm arched at a 90-degree angle. I received multiple tweets from those who thought Joyner barely made contact, but the replay shows his upper left arm hit Bridgewater’s facemask, causing the helmet to bounce violently off the turf.
Bridgewater was diagnosed with a concussion and must pass through the league’s mandatory concussion protocol in order to be eligible to play in the Vikings’ game Sunday at the Oakland Raiders.
Referee Ronald Torbert penalized Joyner 15 yards for unnecessary roughness, and the rules in this area seem clear. According to Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1 (d)(1), “A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide.” The rule goes on to note that contact is legal if a runner has “already committed himself and the contact is unavoidable.” But even in those cases, the rule notes, it is a penalty if “the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner.”
Joyner told reporters after the game that he had already “launched” when Bridgewater started sliding, a debatable contention. But even if that were the case, the nature of the ensuing contact not only was illegal but also destroyed the precise tenet of the NFL’s campaign to protect quarterbacks who are willing to surrender further yardage in order to avoid big hits.
Whether Joyner intended to hurt Bridgewater is irrelevant, although there was little doubt what Vikings coach Mike Zimmer thought of it. Zimmer noted the “history” of Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, whose theatrics were a major reason the NFL pursued the “Bountygate” investigation against the New Orleans Saints in 2012. At the time, it was reported that Williams encouraged head shots that knocked quarterbacks from the game, an edict that came to be symbolized by a recording in which he told players: “Kill the head, the body will die.”
Independent of whatever philosophies Williams might preach, and regardless of intent, Joyner made a big mistake. He delivered avoidable contact to the head of a player no longer trying to ward it off, causing an injury the NFL wants to prevent at every turn. There is no defending or explaining it, and the league must use its array of disciplinary options to address the infraction.
November 9, 2015 at 9:52 am #33809znModeratorKnockout blow to Teddy Bridgewater wasn’t Bountygate 2.0
Matt Bowen
ESPN InsiderMinnesota Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater knew the drill when he pulled the ball down to run early in the fourth quarter on Sunday versus the St. Louis Rams. All quarterbacks do. Pick up the first down there, add a couple of rushing yards to the stat column and then slide, dive, whatever. Just get the yardage, get down and live to see the next play.
But Bridgewater still paid for it. And the reality is quarterbacks often will in a league where the QB is the ultimate target, regardless of who is coaching the defense.
The hit? Yeah, it looked nasty. A vicious shot from Rams defensive back Lamarcus Joyner, delivered right as Bridgewater was sliding, or giving himself up. Put that thing in slow motion and you can see the quarterback’s head snap down on the turf. It knocked him right out of the game. He was finished.
Immediately after the hit, there was talk of another Gregg Williams’ coached defense intentionally targeting players. That hit from Joyner was dirty, right? I get it. The Bountygate tales were going to surface given Williams’ past history in the league. I’ve been on a defense with Williams running the show, and I’ve seen the bounties.
But before we go pin the hit on Williams, a coach I should admit I respect as much as any I’ve played for, let’s just be honest about the situation from an on-field standpoint.
Williams is a master motivator, a true teacher, a veteran coach who gets the most out of his guys. And his defenses do push the envelope. They walk the line. Always. But to try and pair that with the Joyner hit? Nah. That’s a reach. Bridgewater wasn’t put on some pregame list with dollar signs next to his name in the program. That’s a lazy narrative, a reach to cover up the real story in the NFL. The truth is, if we didn’t know what we do about Williams from Bountygate, we wouldn’t be able to discern the intent of his defenses from any other team.
This is a fact: Quarterbacks are always targeted, regardless of who is running the defense that day. Take them out, within or on the edge of the rules, and your chances of winning increase dramatically.
Plays like this are easy to critique from the couch or even in the stands. You see a quarterback go down, especially when the head is involved, and the outrage floods social media. Everyone knows the ramifications of concussions, and everyone is an expert, just waiting to throw out opinions, to gain a voice on a hit that doesn’t mesh with their standards of clean, ethical play.
When Bridgewater started to slide, everything went wrong. It was the imperfect combination of NFL speed and a QB in the open field. If you want to say Joyner was intentionally trying to bounce Bridgewater’s head off the turf like a basketball, then go with it. I probably won’t change your mind, and that’s fine. But I just don’t believe he was looking to make contact with the helmet of the quarterback. That wasn’t his plan when he broke downhill and prepared himself to deliver the hit. The rest? Well, it happens when angles change at the last second.
Yes, it was a brutal hit. But put yourself in the shoes of Joyner, or any defender in the NFL that sees the quarterback tuck that ball to run. I’ve been there, and regardless of who your coach is, your mindset is clear: That’s fresh meat in the open field. If you have a shot — a legitimate shot — then you drop your pads and put it on him. Make it physical, too. That’s not meathead stuff here, it’s just football the way you’ve been trained to play. And while slow motion tells you one thing, in the pros, it happens so fast, like lightning, that defenders just can’t pull off in time to save a guy.
I’ve watched the hit from Joyner over and over. And I’ve been in those situations as a player. There was an opportunity there for Joyner — leading with his shoulder — to put Bridgewater down, to let him know that running the ball against his defense wasn’t the best idea going forward. “Next time,” Joyner is thinking, “just hang in the pocket and make the throw, or we will take you out.” That’s the message you are trying to send as a defensive player.
Nice? No, it’s not. But that’s the reality of the NFL.
ESPN.com NFL analyst Matt Bowen played seven seasons in the NFL.
November 9, 2015 at 12:38 pm #33819wvParticipantWell i think Bowen misses the main point —
What I see on replay is Joyner zooming in like a rocket
and changing his angle slightly so as to either
miss the QB completely and just strafe him,
or to just graze him to let him know Joyner
is out there. What i dont see is Joyner
taking aim and trying to hurt the QB.
Looked to me like there was a very subtle
change of angle by Joyner to ‘avoid’ a major collision.Penalty? Yes. Intentional head-hunting? Nah.
w
vNovember 9, 2015 at 1:31 pm #33824lyserParticipantWell i think Bowen misses the main point —
What I see on replay is Joyner zooming in like a rocket
and changing his angle slightly so as to either
miss the QB completely and just strafe him,
or to just graze him to let him know Joyner
is out there. What i dont see is Joyner
taking aim and trying to hurt the QB.
Looked to me like there was a very subtle
change of angle by Joyner to ‘avoid’ a major collision.Penalty? Yes. Intentional head-hunting? Nah.
w
vYup. Exactly. Bang bang bang. Vamanous.
November 9, 2015 at 1:35 pm #33825znModeratorWell i think Bowen misses the main point —
What I see on replay is Joyner zooming in like a rocket
and changing his angle slightly so as to either
miss the QB completely and just strafe him,
or to just graze him to let him know Joyner
is out there. What i dont see is Joyner
taking aim and trying to hurt the QB.
Looked to me like there was a very subtle
change of angle by Joyner to ‘avoid’ a major collision.Penalty? Yes. Intentional head-hunting? Nah.
w
vI agree with that. Joyner wanted a little deniable piece of action. He didn’t calculate on the qb’s head bouncing off the turf. But I don’t think he was out for a kill. I think he was surprised by the result. Problem is if you’re out for a little “deniable” piece of over the edge playing, you can’t calculate the results. So better not to do it.
,
November 9, 2015 at 2:08 pm #33833lyserParticipantWell i think Bowen misses the main point —
What I see on replay is Joyner zooming in like a rocket
and changing his angle slightly so as to either
miss the QB completely and just strafe him,
or to just graze him to let him know Joyner
is out there. What i dont see is Joyner
taking aim and trying to hurt the QB.
Looked to me like there was a very subtle
change of angle by Joyner to ‘avoid’ a major collision.Penalty? Yes. Intentional head-hunting? Nah.
w
vI agree with that. Joyner wanted a little deniable piece of action. He didn’t calculate on the qb’s head bouncing off the turf. But I don’t think he was out for a kill. I think he was surprised by the result. Problem is if you’re out for a little “deniable” piece of over the edge playing, you can’t calculate the results. So better not to do it.
,
Who can process at real time speed? The rams will errs on the side of aggressiveness which I like. As they say – if I had it all to do over, I’d do it just the same.
November 9, 2015 at 2:16 pm #33834znModeratorWho can process at real time speed? The rams will errs on the side of aggressiveness which I like. As they say – if I had it all to do over, I’d do it just the same.
Oh I don’t think that was just a mistake. He wanted a piece of the qb, he just didn’t want to do a flagrant kill shot. It just backfired on him.
November 9, 2015 at 3:26 pm #33840lyserParticipantDidn’t backfire. He got his pound of flesh. Coulda been worse that’s the point
November 10, 2015 at 10:32 pm #33927znModeratorJeff Fisher responds to criticism from Rodney Harrison
Mike Florio
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/category/rumor-mill/page/2/
After Sunday’s game against the Rams, which included a knockout blow to Minnesota quarterback Teddy Bridgewater, Vikings coach Mike Zimmer threw a dart or two at St. Louis defensive coordinator Gregg Williams. Later that night, Rodney Harrison of NBC’s Football Night in America aimed a level higher.
“I wasn’t surprised because it happened to me in 2006,” Harrison said. “[Titans receiver] Bobby Wade came and chopped my knees and tore my knee up. I’m lying on the ground, and I look at Jeff Fisher and he’s smiling and laughing. So this is typical of Jeff Fisher-type teams.”
It wasn’t the first time Harrison said this; in a 2009 appearance on The Dan Patrick Show, Harrison made the same comments.
Six years ago, Fisher didn’t respond. This time, he did.
“I don’t want to say I took things personal, but it was kind of a personal attack on me,” Fisher told reporters on Monday. “I think you have to consider the source. . . . You’re talking about a guy that had a great career. I mean, the guy played a long time. He was hard to defend. He was a really active defensive player. But this is coming from a guy that had 18 unnecessary roughness penalties, seven personal fouls, four roughing the passer penalties, a total of 77 penalties in his career and was voted three times the dirtiest player in the National Football League and was suspended for a hit, a helmet-to-helmet hit on Jerry Rice in 2002. Okay? This is where these comments are coming from. I’ll just say this: Since 2000, it’s been a privilege and honor for me to be on the Competition Committee. Our main focus, as you guys have followed this league for a long time know, our main focus is player safety. So, for Rodney to come out and say that I did something like that is absolutely absurd. So, that’s all I have to say on that.”
Fisher separately was asked whether it bothers him that his teams have been called dirty or chippy.
“I haven’t heard that,” Fisher said. “So, we are going to play fast. We are going to physical and we’re going to play furious and we’re going to play contact football. Okay?”
But the charge of dirty and/or chippy play isn’t new. In 2012, when Fisher became coach of the Rams, Bernie Miklasz of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (via an assist from Mike Sando of ESPN.com) pointed out that, from 2001 to 2010, the Titans: (1) led the NFL in most personal fouls with 163; (2) had 67 unnecessary roughness penalties, leading the NFL; and (3) had 46 roughing the passer penalties, leading the NFL. More recently, Miklasz combined the full Houston/Tennessee years with Fisher’s Rams teams and concluded that Fisher’s teams had 236 more penalties than their opponents, 1,937 more penalty yards than their opponents, 116 fewer first downs via penalties than their opponents.
Last year, Giants linebacker Jameel McClain dubbed the Rams a “dirty ass team” after a fight that broke out following a late hit from St. Louis linebacker Alec Ogletree on New York receiver Odell Beckham Jr.
So it’s hardly the first time someone has called out a Fisher-coached team. It’s also not the first time someone has taken direct aim at Fisher.
In 2007, former Chargers linebacker Shawne Merriman suffered a sprained knee on what he dubbed a “cheap shot” from former Titans center Kevin Mawae and former Titans tackle David Stewart. Merriman said that “several” Chargers players told him Fisher had ordered the hit on Merriman. Reprising the remarks with Colin Cowherd of FOX Sports Radio on Monday, Merriman said that he heard Fisher had ordered the hit from Titans players, too.
On one hand, football is football. Players use raw physicality to achieve results, from overpowering the opponent on a given play to intimidating him on future plays. On the other hand, there’s a line between using force to get results and doing so to inflict injury, especially as the NFL attempts to secure its future by promoting health and safety in a game that is inherently unhealthy and unsafe for those who play it.
The problem is that the recipients of physicality aimed at the former often will perceive it as an effort to accomplish the latter. And it becomes difficult if not impossible to get those inflicting the physicality and those absorbing it to agree regarding the intentions.
November 10, 2015 at 11:55 pm #33931znModeratorMike Zimmer and Rodney Harrison: Hypocrisy Exposed
Bernie Miklasz
http://www.101sports.com/2015/11/10/247281/
If any of you have graciously taken the time to read some of my work over the past few years, you’ll know that I haven’t held back in scrutinizing / criticizing Rams head coach Jeff Fisher and team defensive coordinator Gregg Williams on the subject of penalties.
I’ve written multiple pieces on the topic, and repeatedly cited statistics about the number of personal fouls and roughing-the-passer penalties called against Fisher-Williams defenses. Their teams play with an edge, push the boundaries and have crossed the line at times.
This isn’t always the case; in some coaching seasons Fisher and/or Williams had relatively low penalty counts on the rough-stuff penalties. But yeah, the coach and his DC encourage aggression. And it isn’t always easy to control aggression.
Over a 10-season period (2001-2010) in Tennessee, Fisher’s defense had at least 10 personal fouls in all 10 seasons. And in seven of those years the Titans finished among the top 5 in the NFL for most personal fouls. In six of those seasons the Titans were in the top 5 for most roughing penalties. The Titans had the league’s highest roughing-the-passer count for three consecutive seasons (2007-2009) and committed the most personal fouls in a season on three different occasions.
Williams ran the Fisher defense in Tennessee between 1997 and 2000, then moved on to become head coach in Buffalo, with subsequent stops as the defensive coordinator in Washington, Jacksonville and New Orleans. Williams’ defenses were on the chippy side in Buffalo, but did nothing outrageous.
With Williams coordinating the defense in Washington (2004-2007) the Redskins had double-digit personal foul counts in all four seasons, and finished sixth in roughing-QB penalties in two of those years.
During Williams’ raucous three years in New Orleans (2009-2011) the Saints twice finished among the top three for most personal fouls, and had the most roughing-QB penalties in ’11. And of course there was the infamous “Bounty Gate” which resulted in Williams sitting out a one-year league suspension.
(For the record: I admire the way Williams served his time, never complained, and used his season away from the game to take a hard look at himself. Given the NFL’s shaky handling of the Bounty case, and the way some of the Saints were railroaded, it would have been easy for Williams to cast himself as some sort of innocent man, given a raw deal by commissioner Rodger Goodell. But Williams didn’t do that; he owned it and took the hit to his rep without protest. I’m not claiming he’s a “changed man” and all of that. But he is more enlightened.)
I don’t think anyone has ever categorized Fisher and Williams as angels; not unless they’ve been described as angels with dirty faces. So when a seething Minnesota Vikings coach Mike Zimmer took some post-game shots at Fisher and Williams after the Vikings’ 21-18 overtime win Sunday, there was at least some basis for his complaints.
The Vikings and their coach were offended by a Lamarcus Joyner elbow to the head — intentional or not — that knocked QB Teddy Bridgewater out of action with a concussion. Joyner was flagged with a personal foul and will draw a fine from the league office.
Of course, Zimmer had a chance to directly confront Fisher with his accusations in their brief post-game excchange, but Zimmer gave Fisher the quick, drive-by handshake and peeled off — saving his rippage of the Rams for his media conference.
Speaking to Vikings flagship station KFAN-AM, Zimmer said, “I agree that it was a cheap shot. His (Williams) defenses are all like that.”
And speaking to reporters after the game, Zimmer threw this out there: “If we were out in the street, we probably would’ve had a fight.”
Naturally, the coach spit out the tough talk about fighting in the streets after Fisher and Williams were already off the field, at safe distance, getting ready for the team’s flight home.
There’s only one problem with Zimmer’s little fit …
The coach declined to look at his own team.
Zimmer apparently has no interest in discussing the Vikings’ elevated penalty count for roughing the quarterback and personal fouls in 2015.
Or perhaps Zimmer was busy or distracted and forgot to look up the numbers.
Yeah, that must be it.
Penalties for Personal Fouls, 2015
Minnesota with 9 … only six NFL teams have more.
St. Louis with 5 … which is tied for 20th.
Penalties for Roughing the Passer, 2015
Minnesota with 4 … which is tied for third.
St. Louis with 2 … which is tied for 13th.
If you add the two categories together, the Vikings’ defense has 13 “cheap shot” penalties this season compared to 7 by the Rams.
It’s OK for an opposing coach to hold Fisher and Williams accountable and air his grievances.
But not this coach. Not Zimmer.
Naturally, the intense Zimmer was upset by the Bridgewater blow. But before he starts flinging those dirty-play accusations in press conferences and taking cheap shots at Williams, Zimmer might want to talk to his defensive players about doing a more honorable job of playing a clean game. Zimmer might want to address his defense and demand that the players cut down on their penalized abuse of quarterbacks and stay within the rules instead of being so reckless with personal fouls.
When a coach is in charge of a team that has 13 combined roughing-QB and personal foul infractions, he probably shouldn’t be delivering lectures to the coaches of a team that has only 7 such penalties.
As a longtime NFL defensive coordinator before becoming the Vikings’ head coach in 2014, Zimmer’s defenses showed up plenty of times on the league leader boards for most personal fouls and roughing-the-passer penalties.
In his 14 seasons (total) as the defensive coordinator in Dallas, Atlanta and Cincinnati, Zimmer’s defenses ranked among the league top 10 in personal fouls eight times, and finished in the top 10 for roughing seven times.
This includes two appearances among the top five in personal fouls, and six top-five finishes for roughing the QB.
And now we have the 2015 Vikings, who are among the league’s worst offenders in both categories.
So when Zimmer looks at the Rams and begins carping about their dirty hits on quarterbacks, I guess he qualifies as an expert, because his defenses have a fact-based history of frequent cheap hits on defenseless quarterbacks.
Zimmer’s hypocrisy is amusing.
But the undisputed champion of unmitigated hypocrisy is the one and only Rodney Harrison, the dirtiest player I’ve watched since I began covering and reporting on the NFL in 1982.
As you know, Harrison called out Fisher on NBC Sunday night, taking the coach to task for his teams’ history of dirty play.
This is priceless, coming from a guy that rarely hesitated to go cruising for attacks on a defenseless quarterback or receiver during his NFL career as a safety (1994-2008) with San Diego and New England. Harrison’s victims included Rams quarterback Trent Green during the 1999 preseason. Harrison lunged at Green’s knees, and Green suffered a season-terminating knee injury. (Enter: Kurt Warner.)
There is a reason why Harrison was named the NFL’s “Dirtiest Player” in a poll of league coaches in 2004, 2005 and 2008.
After Harrison “won” the award for the third time, Indianapolis receiver Brandon Stokely said, “I would have bet life savings on that.”
Harrison was suspended by the NFL for his vicious and gratuitous helmet-to-helmet assault on Hall of Fame wide receiver Jerry Rice in 2002 — and understand that Harrison’s gutless hit came at a time when NFL players could get away with the kind of filthy stuff that isn’t tolerated now. So his assault on Rice was especially heinous.
According to multiple media reports, Harrison amassed more than $200,000 in league fines for scuzzy play during his career.
Harrison also produced an impressive exacta: getting suspended for his on-field transgressions and for violating the league’s performance-enhancing drug policy.
In 2007, Harrison admitted to purchasing HGH (human growth hormone) “more than once” when questioned by the Albany (N.Y.) District Attorney’s office during an investigation of an HGH-peddling ring.
Harrison’s dig at Fisher was business as usual. It’s been his media strategy to change the subject — namely, his chronic habit of harming opponents that couldn’t defend themselves at the point of impact.
Harrison has a history of pointing the finger at others instead, and he has no shame or embarrassment about playing the role of victim.
After Harrison publicly called him a “dirty dude” former Tennessee center Kevin Mawae spoke out in a 2009 interview:
“If Rodney Harrison wants to accuse somebody of being dirty, tell him to look at his 16 years of highlights. I guarantee he got fined more in one year than I have in my entire career.”
On NBC, Harrison accused Fisher of laughing on the sideline during a 2006 game after Harrison suffered a season-ending knee injury on a low hit from Tennessee wide receiver Bobby Wade. Fisher vehemently denied this, and called Harrison a “meathead” on Monday night’s Jeff Fisher Show on 101 ESPN.
In that same 2009 interview, Mawae denied that the Titans were laughing at Harrison.
“Maybe it’s just the way to deflect the attention away from himself,” Mawae said. “I think everybody knows that’s been in this league a long time that he may be the dirtiest guy that’s ever played this game … I think somebody forgot to tell him that that long wide, three foot white line on the sidelines, we play inside those. He spent a lot of his time playing outside of those.”
Earlier this season Harrison predicted that the Miami Dolphins would attempt to cheap shot New England quarterback Tom Brady to take him out. (They didn’t.)
Also this season, Harrison criticized Minnesota linebacker Anthony Barr for a hit on Detroit QB.
Harrison — imagine this — simply wouldn’t tolerate such a cheap shot on an NFL quarterback … yeah, even though Harrison was guilty of many such QB bombing runs in his days as an irresponsible missile-safety.
Harrison said he would have “punched that young guy right in the face” for the “cheap shot” on Stafford.
Barr was penalized for a personal foul.
And just to add some additional humor to this … the same Mike Zimmer that was so high and mighty in criticizing the Rams claimed that Barr’s hit was clean.
Sure, coach. You betcha.
Your players are saints.
A pure as that Minnesota snow.
Speaking a guest on Boston radio station WEEI on Tuesday, Harrison was asked if he’d like to rebut Fisher’s lengthy criticism. Earlier Monday at Rams Park, a prepared Fisher dismissed Harrison by citing Harrison’s prolific penalty count as a player.
Harrison initially begged off, saying “I would love to really go in like I really want to do in my heart and soul but the guys at NBC, the higher-ups told me, ‘Please don’t respond to it,’ so they’re the guys that sign my check.”
But of course, Harrison immediately contradicted himself by responding to Fisher — seconds after saying he wouldn’t respond to Fisher.
“But I will say this, if anybody knows about a dirty hit, it’s me,” Harrison said.
(Rodney should have stopped right there. Finally, some truth.)
“And that’s all it was. It was about addressing the issue,” Harrison continued. “It was a dirty hit (on Bridgewater.) That’s what I said. And I referenced to back what I experienced with his teams and what other players have told me coming from his team, and other people. People around the league know the truth, bottom line. I’m not going to get into any details because I’m just not going to go there. I was asked not to go there. But the bottom line is, if you’ve been in the league, you know the truth.”
Later, Harrison whined, “They always want to bring out the negative. It’s not because I didn’t do it to personally attack (Fisher.) I didn’t do it to evoke a response. I said it because it was in my soul, it was in my spirit and it was something that I experienced, first hand. I knew that it was a dirty hit, what Bobby Wade did to me. I looked up and saw on the sidelines guys laughing and joking, OK?
“(Fisher) can point out all the dirty things that I’ve done or the penalties, but the bottom line is this, you can’t take away what I’ve accomplished in my career. And the funny thing about it, when you play against those type teams, afterward coaches come up to you, ‘Man, I wish I had you on my team. Man, I wish you could bring that physicality with us. We need a guy like you.’ It’s the same coaches. It’s the same coaches on the staff coming to me wishing that I was on their team.”
(Harrison has a point there. Is there any doubt that Coach Fisher loves defensive players that intimidate and rattle opponents with wicked hits?)
True to his nature, Harrison played the victim card on WEEI.
Fortunately, sports-talk radio stations do not use polygraphs during interviews.
“There have been times where I really crossed the line, no doubt about it,” Harrison said. “But there are other times when I felt like I’ve been targeted. When you get a reputation with the NFL, they’re going to look at you, everything single thing you do, from uniform, I’d jog out on the field, ‘Hey Harrison, we’re watching you.’ Man, leave me the hell alone. You’re watching me? We’re in warmups, and you’re telling me. All of sudden, I know that you’re talking about me in New York, so I have no leeway.”
Harrison was targeted?
(Laugh track).
“At times, I didn’t think it was fair, but I understood,” Harrison said. “It was just one of those situations where I understood that the NFL was after me and they were going to fine me for everything and use me as an example and I was just going to play football. If they take 20, 30-thousand dollars from me, I grew up with nothing, so trust me, whatever I’m making above that, I’m OK.”
There’s no question about that. Despite the more than $200,000 in NFL fines for cheap shots, for all of the legitimate stains on his reputation, for the times he was named the league’s dirtiest player, for all of those instances where he showed no respect for the health and safety of a fellow NFL player, and for his suspension for buying and using HGH …
Harrison retired and was rewarded with a great gig on NBC. He spends Sunday nights in the studio where he gets the chance to take whacks at NFL players and coaches for misconduct that doesn’t come close to matching Harrison’s own history of rotten behavior.
The NFL is truly a special habitat, isn’t it?
As for Fisher, he shouldn’t take offense so easily. His teams aren’t exactly meek.
Zimmer and Harrison weren’t wrong to cite the Fisher-Williams reputation. Sometimes the roughness is necessary.
But given their odious histories, Zimmer and Harrison lack the credibility to deliver sermons on unsportsmanlike conduct.
November 11, 2015 at 12:06 am #33932znModeratorAdrian Peterson doesn’t believe hit on Teddy Bridgewater was dirty
Mike Florio
Plenty of people believe the hit applied by Rams cornerback Lamarcus Joyner on Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater was dirty. Vikings running back Adrian Peterson isn’t among those who do.
“Initial reaction, I actually just took off sprinting over there towards the Rams players because you know I seen it and it looked bad,” Peterson said on Monday’s PFT Live on NBC Sports Radio. “It looked dirty, but as I was over there kind of in the midst of those guys I wanted to watch the replay before I reacted and I do anything crazy but, you know, that is our guy. It appeared dirty but watching the replay I honestly feel, my opinion, that he didn’t target him. If he was targeting him he did a bad job of executing.
“I feel like it was a bang-bang play. Teddy slid; unfortunately his head came up. If his head’s flat, I think the guy’s shoulder misses but that’s not normally how a quarterbacks’s head is when he’s sliding. . . . It was still, though, you see the quarterback approaching you so you should you know he’s going to slide. You see him in his slide formation. You should just do a run by anyway and not put yourself in that position, but unfortunately for him he did, and it was upsetting to say the least.”
Peterson said he understands the concerns about the situation, given the history of Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams. But Peterson prefers to view the situation as not calculated, not deliberate.
“Personally, you know, I like to see the best of people so I would say that wasn’t targeting based on me evaluating it with my eyes and really kind of making a sound judgement on it. It still wasn’t a smart play, and our quarterback was out for the rest of the game so that hurt us and it was a tough one. It was real close so I can see why opinions would sway to be it being intentional.”
For the full interview with Peterson, who addressed plenty of topics for a solid 10 minutes or more, click the thing in the thing below.
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