Climate change: Learning to think like a geologist

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  • #57504
    bnw
    Blocked

    Published by on 24 Jun 2008 at 02:46 pm

    Climate change: Learning to think like a geologist

    Paul MacRae, June 24, 2008

    Climate change: Learning to think like a geologist

    Most geologists aren’t part of Al Gore’s “100 per cent consensus” of scientists that humans are the principal cause of global warming and that we have to take drastic steps to deal with it.

    For example, in March 2008, a poll of Alberta’s 51,000 geologists found that only 26 per cent believe humans are the main cause of global warming. Forty-five per cent believe both humans and nature are causing climate change, and 68 per cent don’t think the debate is “over,” as Gore would like the public to believe.1

    The position of the American Association of Petroleum Geologists is quite clear:

    The earth’s climate is constantly changing owing to natural variability in earth processes. Natural climate variability over recent geological time is greater than reasonable estimates of potential human-induced greenhouse gas changes. Because no tool is available to test the supposition of human-induced climate change and the range of natural variability is so great, there is no discernible human influence on global climate at this time.2

    Why do geologists tend to be skeptics? Is it because they are, as Gore and the “consensus” charge, in the pay of the oil industry? Perhaps, but there may be other, more scientific reasons. As Peter Sciaky, a retired geologist, writes:

    A geologist has a much longer perspective. There are several salient points about our earth that the greenhouse theorists overlook (or are not aware of). The first of these is that the planet has never been this cool. There is abundant fossil evidence to support this — from plants of the monocot order (such as palm trees) in the rocks of Cretaceous Age in Greenland and warm water fossils in sedimentary rocks of the far north. This is hardly the first warming period in the earth’s history. The present global warming is hardly unique. It is arriving pretty much “on schedule.”

    One thing, for sure, is that the environmental community has always spurned any input from geologists (many of whom are employed by the petroleum industry). No environmental conference, such as Kyoto, has ever invited a geologist, a paleontologist, a paleo-climatologist. It would seem beneficial for any scientific investigatory to include such scientific disciplines.

    Among all my liberal and leftist friends (and I am certainly one of those), I know not a one who does not accept that global warming is an event caused by mankind. I do not know one geologist who believes that global warming is not taking place. I do not know a single geologist who believes that it is a man-made phenomenon.3

    Finally, a retired scientist who emailed me after reading one of my climate columns in the Times Colonist observed: “Most of my geology friends are skeptics — but it has become politically incorrect to voice such views.”

    Current climate conditions are not unusual
    Geologists tend to question the anthropogenic theory because their education tells them that current climate conditions are not unusually warm, based on either the past few thousand years, or the past few hundred thousand years, or the past tens of millions of years, or even the past hundreds of millions of years.

    Figure 1. Temperatures since 1860. Source: R.M. Carter
    Temperatures since 1860. Source: R.M. Carter.
    It’s possible to look at a graph of the past century and conclude: “Oh, my God, the planet is burning up!” After all, the temperature has been rising, more or less, since the 1850’s, with a dip from the 1940’s to the mid-1970’s. The chart to the right shows temperature and carbon dioxide levels from 1860 to now.4

    But what if we take a longer view? That presents quite a different picture. Only 400 years ago, the planet was quite cold, a period known as the Little Ice Age (roughly 1300-1850). Before that, though, during the Medieval Warm Period (roughly 1000-1300), the planet was a degree or two Celsius warmer than today, to the point where Greenland was warm enough for settlement by the Vikings. The Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age were clearly a natural occurrences since industrial carbon emissions weren’t yet a factor. Figure 1 is a graph of the last thousand years based on work by climatologist H.H. Lamb.

    Temperatures over the last 1,000 years: H.H. Lamb
    Figure 1. Lamb graph of temperature over the past 1,000 years
    Curiously, the temperature graph preferred by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the famous “hockey stick,” smooths out the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age to create an impression that twentieth-century warming is “the warmest in 1,000 years” (Figure 2). Faced with the flaws in this graph, the IPCC has since dropped it and now claims the climate is the warmest in 400 years, which isn’t that impressive given that we’re coming out of the Little Ice Age.

    IPCC hockey stick graph
    Figure 2. IPCC hockey stick graph of the past 1,000 years
    Over the past 4,000 years, the planet has also experienced warm and cool periods, again quite naturally. In fact, warm times seem to recur on a cycle of about 1,000-1,500 years, as Figure 3 shows.5 The 20th century’s warming appeared pretty much in line with this millennial cycle.

    Warming every 1,000 years
    Figure 3. Warming every 1,000 years or so. Source: R.M. Carter
    Going back 8,000 years or so, we encounter the Holocene Optimum, which was 2-3 degrees Celsius warmer than today’s temperatures — naturally.

    Let’s expand our view once again, to the past 450,000 years (Figure 4). What do we see? A roller-coaster ride of glacials (cold times) and interglacials (warm times), on a cycle of about 100,000 years.

    A glacial cycle every 100,000 years
    Figure 4. A glacial cycle every 100,000 years
    By the way, this is the chart, based on ice core readings taken in Antarctica, that Gore uses in his film An Inconvenient Truth. Gore doesn’t try to explain why this roller coaster has occurred, since if changes in carbon dioxide levels were causing the cycle of glaciations and interglaciations, as Gore implies, then the logical question is what caused the changes in carbon dioxide levels?

    Gore doesn’t say, because to do so would destroy his case, but here’s what science says: temperature changes precede carbon dioxide level changes by several hundred years, and temperature changes are caused by changes in solar intensity called the Milankovitch Cycles, not carbon dioxide. The Milankovitch Cycles, based on the earth’s changing position in relation to the sun, appear to be the ultimate drivers of climate over the past few million years.

    The four previous interglacials were warmer than today’s
    Another interesting observation that Gore doesn’t make because it would destroy his case: the four previous interglacials shown on his chart are all warmer than today’s interglacial (the green line in Figure 4 shows how today’s average temperature compares with that of the three previous interglacials).

    Also, note that the interglacial peaks are very steep. Before an interglacial becomes a glacial, warming occurs relatively rapidly (if the warming was slow, the curve would be more rounded), and cooling also occurs rapidly.

    If our planet is near the top of its interglacial cycle, then we’d be getting — as part of a natural process — the rapid warming climatologists are so alarmed about. And, we can expect rapid cooling when the balance tips (the steep downward slope). To worry about global warming at this stage in our planet’s geological history seems silly from the geologist’s perspective.

    As further evidence that we may be near the high point of the climate cycle, the planet has not warmed since 1998, even though carbon dioxide levels have increased steadily. We may well be heading into a new glaciation while spending billions of dollars on reducing carbon emissions on the false premise that the planet is getting too warm.

    During the glacials, much of the northern hemisphere (and Antarctica, of course) is covered with ice two and three kilometres thick. Within our roughly two-million-year-old ice age, the glacials last about 80,000 years. The warmer interglacials, which make global civilization possible, last only 10,000-20,000 years. Our interglacial, the Holocene, began about 13,000 years ago, so we’re well past the half-way point in this cycle of warming and looking at a new glacial in the next few centuries or millennia. Warming is, therefore, from the geologist’s point of view, the least of our problems.

    Temperatures have been falling for 65 million years
    Suppose we take an even longer geological view: the last 65 million years. Here we see a temperature graph that looks like a double-diamond ski slope: the planet has been gradually but steadily cooling during this time (see Figure 5).6) Note how the climate has seesawed in the past two million years, and how close the tips of the warming periods are to the point where glaciations return.

    Global temperatures falling
    Figure 5. Global temperature falling for 70 million years
    The temperature 65 million years ago, when the dinosaurs were obliterated by a comet, was about 22 degrees Celsius; today, the planet’s average temperature is about 12 degrees Celsius. Carbon dioxide levels have also been falling over this time, but much more rapidly than the temperature (which should, in all but the most die-hard “consensus” climatologists’ minds, destroy the idea that carbon dioxide drives temperature). For most of this time on our planet there were no polar ice caps and, yes, the sea levels were many metres higher than today. Humanity can deal with higher sea levels; we’ll have a lot more trouble coping with three-kilometre-high walls of glacial ice.

    Finally, let’s look at the very long-range picture: earth over the past 600 million years (Figure 6). Again, we see fluctuations of temperature but, overall, the planet has been much warmer (and with much higher levels of carbon dioxide) than today, and yet life managed to evolve and flourish.

    CO2 and temperature over 600 million years
    Figure 6. Temperature and CO2 levels over 600 million years
    The planet didn’t experience “oblivion,” as the Secretary General of the UN, Ban Ki-Moon, suggested at the Bali conference on climate change in 2007. It’s curious that not one of the thousands of so-called climate experts at that conference saw fit to educate Ki-Moon on the geological facts before (or, apparently, after) his speech.

    Geologists are fully aware that our planet is not unusually warm at the moment, it is unusually cold. They also know that carbon dioxide is not the villain when it comes to warming — for most of earth’s history, temperature and carbon dioxide have shown only the most tenuous relationship, as Figure 6 shows. The correlation today of rising carbon dioxide levels and rising temperatures that worries climate scientists so much is likely just coincidence.

    Overall, as Lamb observed, “Seemingly objective statistics may produce a variety of verdicts which are actually arbitrary in that they depend on the choice of observation period.”7 Alarmists like Al Gore have chosen to focus on the past century, and therefore they worry about warming. Geologists take a longer time-frame and know that the planet has been much warmer in the past without “thermageddon,” that we are in an ice age, and that the biggest future problem we face is not warming but cooling.

    Who’s right, the geologists or the computer-based climate scientists? There is no certainty in science (a fact that “consensus” climate science seems to have forgotten). However, if we think like a geologist rather than a computer climate specialist, we know that today’s climate is well within past natural variability — for example, previous interglacials and even previous warm cycles within this interglacial were warmer than today.

    In other words, the record of past climate history makes it very likely that today’s climate change is based on natural, cyclical factors, not human factors, and that what we need to worry about is a planet that is colder, not warmer.

    • This topic was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #57506
    bnw
    Blocked

    Billy, I agree with this guy 100%. But he like me is a geologist. Read for the long perspective.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58338
    bnw
    Blocked

    Bump for MacKeysor.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58346
    — X —
    Participant

    There’s so much opinion on this from both sides that it’s hard to discern what’s real and what’s fiction sometimes. I do believe that the earth is going to cool and warm on its own without intervention from humans (because it has), but are you saying there are no negative effects on the atmosphere from things like atmospheric pollution associated with industrialization; or deforestation; or acid rain; or overpopulation exacting an increasing toll on the soils, forests, and air; or ozone layer deterioration from carbon emissions, etc.? None of that has any consequence? What if that were to increase 10 fold? Still no negative effects on the earth’s temps?

    You have to be odd, to be number one.
    -- Dr Seuss

    #58347
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    Well, it seems that those geologists who say they don’t believe in man-made climate change are the ones who have a financial interest for it not to be real…

    Link: http://www.skepticalscience.com/Geologists-climate-change-denial.html

    Excerpt:
    One survey of earth scientists found that while 97 per cent of actively publishing climate scientists agree humans are changing global temperatures, only 47 per cent of economic geologists (those who study geology with a view to its commerical exploitation) concur (pdf). In fact, among all earth scientists, economic geologists are the most sceptical.

    Similarly, in response to the consensus on global warming, the American Association of Petroleum Geologists “respects these scientific opinions but wants to add that the current climate warming projections could fall within well-documented natural variations in past climate and observed temperature data”. You’d call that type of endorsement damning with faint praise.

    However, the broader community of geologists seems convinced by the evidence that humans are causing global warming. The European Federation of Geologists says climate change is predominantly caused by anthropogenic emissions of CO2 and poses significant risks to human civilisation. The Geological Society of America concurs that “greenhouse gases have been an increasingly important contributor [to global warming] since the mid-1800s and the major factor since the mid-1900s”. The Geological Society of London states that “evidence from the geological record is consistent with the physics that shows that adding large amounts of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere warms the world and may lead to: higher sea levels and flooding of low-lying coasts; greatly changed patterns of rainfall; increased acidity of the oceans; and decreased oxygen levels in seawater”.

    So climate scepticism seems strongest among geologists closely linked to the mining and fossil fuel industries. Perhaps the words of Upton Sinclair shine some understanding on the forces at play here: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”

    #58354
    bnw
    Blocked

    There’s so much opinion on this from both sides that it’s hard to discern what’s real and what’s fiction sometimes. I do believe that the earth is going to cool and warm on its own without intervention from humans (because it has), but are you saying there are no negative effects on the atmosphere from things like atmospheric pollution associated with industrialization; or deforestation; or acid rain; or overpopulation exacting an increasing toll on the soils, forests, and air; or ozone layer deterioration from carbon emissions, etc.? None of that has any consequence? What if that were to increase 10 fold? Still no negative effects on the earth’s temps?

    Effects on the atmosphere I suppose would depend upon the compound. Elevated CO2, a naturally occurring compound, has not correlated anywhere near 100% to claim it causes global warming much less that the man made component is causative. History proves this without question. Now the effects of CFCs upon the Ozone layer has been demonstrated and the damage from all but one type (HCFC-22) has begun to decline and are forecast to do so precipitously over the next 30 years.

    Acid Rain is the crisis that wasn’t. Rainwater is naturally acidic. The crisis that wasn’t did set the stage for the CO2 shysters of Enron and Al Gore though. SO2 and NOx were targeted by the EPA through scrubbers on coal plants and catalytic converters on autos. Rain water is still acidic. While some areas in the upper midwest have seen slight lessening of acidity in surface water other areas notably the northeast are still quite acidic because they are naturally so. Now removing the sulfur via scrubbers has had the unfortunate effect of lowering soil fertility, especially for raising corn. Now annual applications of sulfur to croplands are necessary to maintain yield. Surrounded by TVA coal plants as I am I have to add sulfur in order to grow decent corn.

    Overpopulation leading to deforestation and loss of soil can effect great change as demonstrated in the mideast vs. the biblical accounts. However global effects such as claimed for man made global warming is not borne out by the data, nor history.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58355
    bnw
    Blocked

    Well, it seems that those geologists who say they don’t believe in man-made climate change are the ones who have a financial interest for it not to be real…

    Link: http://www.skepticalscience.com/Geologists-climate-change-denial.html

    Excerpt:
    One survey of earth scientists found that while 97 per cent of actively publishing climate scientists agree humans are changing global temperatures, only 47 per cent of economic geologists (those who study geology with a view to its commerical exploitation) concur (pdf). In fact, among all earth scientists, economic geologists are the most sceptical.

    Similarly, in response to the consensus on global warming, the American Association of Petroleum Geologists “respects these scientific opinions but wants to add that the current climate warming projections could fall within well-documented natural variations in past climate and observed temperature data”. You’d call that type of endorsement damning with faint praise.

    However, the broader community of geologists seems convinced by the evidence that humans are causing global warming. The European Federation of Geologists says climate change is predominantly caused by anthropogenic emissions of CO2 and poses significant risks to human civilisation. The Geological Society of America concurs that “greenhouse gases have been an increasingly important contributor [to global warming] since the mid-1800s and the major factor since the mid-1900s”. The Geological Society of London states that “evidence from the geological record is consistent with the physics that shows that adding large amounts of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere warms the world and may lead to: higher sea levels and flooding of low-lying coasts; greatly changed patterns of rainfall; increased acidity of the oceans; and decreased oxygen levels in seawater”.

    So climate scepticism seems strongest among geologists closely linked to the mining and fossil fuel industries. Perhaps the words of Upton Sinclair shine some understanding on the forces at play here: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”

    Most geologists are employed by the mining and energy industries. Doesn’t change the facts that dispute the man made global warming claim. From the article-

    One thing, for sure, is that the environmental community has always spurned any input from geologists (many of whom are employed by the petroleum industry). No environmental conference, such as Kyoto, has ever invited a geologist, a paleontologist, a paleo-climatologist. It would seem beneficial for any scientific investigatory to include such scientific disciplines.

    Among all my liberal and leftist friends (and I am certainly one of those), I know not a one who does not accept that global warming is an event caused by mankind. I do not know one geologist who believes that global warming is not taking place. I do not know a single geologist who believes that it is a man-made phenomenon.3

    Finally, a retired scientist who emailed me after reading one of my climate columns in the Times Colonist observed: “Most of my geology friends are skeptics — but it has become politically incorrect to voice such views.”

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58365
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Was just in the ER with my first Ophthalmic migraine last night so I’m admittedly not at my best.

    Best I can do is note a few things.

    1) Focusing on Al Gore rather than the findings of actual climate scientists diminishes the seriousness of the critique. Al Gore is basically a concerned citizen who tried to assemble the scientific consensus and present it to the masses. Essentially, it’s focusing on the messenger vs the message and it’s disingenuous.

    2) On topic, I really don’t care about what the temperatures were 65 million years ago. We currently have MOST of the population of the earth living within 100 miles of a coast line. So rising sea levels is a massive cause for alarm. We cannot just move Rio de Janeiro, Miami, New Orleans, New York, Washington DC, Shanghai, Hong Kong, London, Sydney, and a HOST of other major coastal cities.

    3) What doesn’t get much discussion are the rising levels of disease interaction as the tropical band width increases. Diseases that used to be restricted to a fairly narrow band near the equator and stayed there because the rest of the world was too cold…are now migrating much farther north and intermingling with other viruses creating the crucible for the next super pandemic. And thanks to the US not nationalizing the manufacture of vaccines (the vaccine manufactures gave the ultimatum that they’d leave and do all manufacturing off shore leaving the US without in the case of a pandemic, so the Congress caved and granted vaccine manufactures with blanket immunity from all prosecution. Fracking being the only other industry with that distinction. A vaccine maker could distribute actual disease and not suffer a nickel of liability)… we have this crippled vaccine structure which doesn’t test and does a terrible job of developing new vaccines…because there is no incentive. They get paid massive amounts to produce the same old stuff and there’s no legal penalty if any of it causes damage. As we saw when H1N1 happened…and I know because I when CNN announced there were 6 confirmed cases in Florida, I was informed that *I* had Swine flu. I dunno where in the top 20 or so I fell, but I was up there. And there was no vaccine for my family. They actually wanted my family to stay home. They’d likely get it, but the spread would stay within our home. So, I’ve actually had to live through how they deal with a new virus. When something actually big hits due to the collision of diseases that normally aren’t outside the tropics and diseases like avian or swine flu…look out. That will solely be a function of ONE of the changes wrought due to Climate Change.

    4) The Joint Chiefs said that Climate Change is the single biggest threat to our national security. Just look at Syria. Even if the factions stopped fighting TODAY, all of those refugees couldn’t go back. Why? NO WATER. NO PROSPECT OF WATER. As the Joint Chiefs pointed out in their brief, access to resources, chiefly among them clean, potable water will cause mass migrations which will lead to significant regional instability. That factions will use this instability towards their own ends won’t change the underlying cause.

    Bottom line is this. Global sea level has AlREADY risen 9 inches. That wasn’t supposed to happen for decades. The latest NOAA report puts the worst case scenario at 9 feet sea level rise within the next 20 years. Do you have any idea how much disruption that will cause?

    YOU may not lose a home, but most of southern Florida…disappears. The outer banks of North Carolina? Gone. We joke about Washington DC, but logistically, it would be a nightmare having to relocate the seat of our national government. And we would if we saw 9 feet of sea level rise. Moreover the added energy available for storms would allow for the creation of storms we’ve never measured before.

    It’s a mistake for people to think in geological time because we don’t exist in geological time. The last ice age, we wore pelts and hunted bison and mammoth. Now, we use sensitive electronics and make jokes about exercise. We do not have the infrastructure of the economy to move 10s of millions of people. And that’s just in THIS country. That doesn’t take into account the political unrest and fallout caused by the potential dislocation of HUNDREDS of millions of dispossessed around the world due to Climate change.

    And this is from the very sober, mission-oriented Generals and Admirals of the Joint Chiefs.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #58368
    bnw
    Blocked

    And yet the earth is cooling. BTW if I believed the global warming nonsense I wouldn’t be looking to buy along the Gulf Coast of FL where the terrain is very flat and close to the coast.

    Again from the article-

    The earth’s climate is constantly changing owing to natural variability in earth processes. Natural climate variability over recent geological time is greater than reasonable estimates of potential human-induced greenhouse gas changes. Because no tool is available to test the supposition of human-induced climate change and the range of natural variability is so great, there is no discernible human influence on global climate at this time.2

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58371
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Well, I live on the Gulf Coast of Florida.

    And I’m here to tell you that the insurance companies just rezoned the entire state and moved the flood zones significantly…in a way that reflects directly the climate change models.

    Now, why would they do that unless their actuarial tables reflected the actual risk of climate change to be real? Based on actual loss as measured on world wide climate, not just local variables?

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #58375
    bnw
    Blocked

    Well, I live on the Gulf Coast of Florida.

    And I’m here to tell you that the insurance companies just rezoned the entire state and moved the flood zones significantly…in a way that reflects directly the climate change models.

    Now, why would they do that unless their actuarial tables reflected the actual risk of climate change to be real? Based on actual loss as measured on world wide climate, not just local variables?

    Money. They want to make money with as little risk as possible.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58376
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Well, I live on the Gulf Coast of Florida.

    And I’m here to tell you that the insurance companies just rezoned the entire state and moved the flood zones significantly…in a way that reflects directly the climate change models.

    Now, why would they do that unless their actuarial tables reflected the actual risk of climate change to be real? Based on actual loss as measured on world wide climate, not just local variables?

    Money. They want to make money with as little risk as possible.

    So, they used the Climate models for shits and giggles? The raise in premiums was pure greed, but the risk allocation was exactly matching the climate models..what…to troll environmentalists?

    /smh

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #58379
    bnw
    Blocked

    Well, I live on the Gulf Coast of Florida.

    And I’m here to tell you that the insurance companies just rezoned the entire state and moved the flood zones significantly…in a way that reflects directly the climate change models.

    Now, why would they do that unless their actuarial tables reflected the actual risk of climate change to be real? Based on actual loss as measured on world wide climate, not just local variables?

    Money. They want to make money with as little risk as possible.

    So, they used the Climate models for shits and giggles? The raise in premiums was pure greed, but the risk allocation was exactly matching the climate models..what…to troll environmentalists?

    /smh

    To get people to pay for that which is most likely never needed. It is the basis of the insurance industry. Without fear no one would buy insurance. Think!

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58382
    zn
    Moderator

    To get people to pay for that which is most likely never needed. It is the basis of the insurance industry. Without fear no one would buy insurance. Think!

    He didn’t mention just insurance. He mentioned the US military. I could add the oil companies themselves, which it has been revealed, while funding deniers also consciously made internal policies consistent with the science of climate change.

    Anyway, I am actually not into debating this…mostly cause it would (ironically) take energy. I am just one of those who is thoroughly convinced by the climate change argument. I’m just voting out loud. So we’ll just have to differ on this one.

    .

    #58383
    Agamemnon
    Moderator

    Anyway, I am actually not into debating this…mostly cause it would (ironically) take energy. I am just one of those who is thoroughly convinced by the climate change argument. I’m just voting out loud. So we’ll just have to differ on this one.

    .

    I am not into debating this… either. Just voting that I don’t believe in man caused climate change. It doesn’t bother me if others think differently. I believe is less pollution etc. etc., but not because of the man caused climate change argument.

    Agamemnon

    #58388
    InvaderRam
    Moderator

    ok. i’ll be a little more open on the climate change subject if only because i think it’s always better to remain a skeptic rather than just dogmatically cling onto an idea.

    but i also think it’s always worthwhile to look into alternative sources of energy. if for no other reason than to provide the coal business with some competition. maybe help keep energy costs down for consumers.

    solar technology i think is a good thing. i mean the the real possibility of free energy. electric cars especially in congested metropolitan cities is a good thing where the exhaust can do real damage to the local environment and to the health of those populations. i think fracking can do real damage to the local environment. maybe not the climate but again the local environment. likewise i worry about pesticides.

    and also climate deniers should always be open to the idea of man made climate change. it’s never good to just shut out ideas completely. well obviously some ideas aren’t open for debate, but this issue seems important and complex enough that it shouldn’t just be closed and shut.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by InvaderRam.
    #58389
    Agamemnon
    Moderator

    I am way more worried about fresh water reserves, I don’t consider man made climate change an issue, Invader.

    Agamemnon

    #58392
    zn
    Moderator

    i think it’s always better to remain a skeptic rather than just dogmatically cling onto an idea.

    Those are not the only 2 alternatives.

    People who see climate change as man-made see themselves as going with the science, and also lament the damage that the (well-funded) deniers campaign has had in the USA (though nowhere else).

    We don’t see it as being “dogmatic.” I do see things like the reps in Congress putting pressure on both the CIA and the Pentagon to “flip” on this, when in fact both the CIA and Pentagon are well aware of the risks c.change poses to the country and the world.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-pentagon-climate-change-how-climate-deniers-put-national-security-at-risk-20150212

    I also see, and heavily count, things like this:

    One survey of earth scientists found that while 97 per cent of actively publishing climate scientists agree humans are changing global temperatures, only 47 per cent of economic geologists (those who study geology with a view to its commerical exploitation) concur (pdf). In fact, among all earth scientists, economic geologists are the most sceptical.

    #58394
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    We don’t see it as being “dogmatic.” I do see things like the reps in Congress putting pressure on both the CIA and the Pentagon to “flip” on this, when in fact both the CIA and Pentagon are well aware of the risks c.change poses to the country and the world.

    Exactly. It’s not dogmatic to support the position backed by the preponderance of evidence. It’s dogmatic to support the position not backed up by evidence.

    #58395
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    <span class=”d4pbbc-font-color” style=”color: blue”>I am way more worried about fresh water reserves, I don’t consider man made climate change an issue, Invader.</span>

    I agree that the depleting water reserves issue is a huge problem though obviously I disagree with you on the impact of climate change.

    Here’s the thing about climate change. Whether you believe the current episode is being driven by man’s activities or not, climate change ALWAYS leads to large extinction events. So no matter what, it will be an issue.

    #58396
    PA Ram
    Participant

    It doesn’t matter whether people believe in climate change or not. The planet doesn’t care.

    The problem is that the response will end up being those who bemoan the fact we didn’t do anything about it–or enough about it to make a difference. Or, there will be those who say–there was never anything we could have done about it anyway.

    No matter what happens, no one will be convinced of anything.

    Except the planet’s warming. That will be hard to ignore.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #58399
    bnw
    Blocked

    To get people to pay for that which is most likely never needed. It is the basis of the insurance industry. Without fear no one would buy insurance. Think!

    He didn’t mention just insurance. He mentioned the US military. I could add the oil companies themselves, which it has been revealed, while funding deniers also consciously made internal policies consistent with the science of climate change.

    Anyway, I am actually not into debating this…mostly cause it would (ironically) take energy. I am just one of those who is thoroughly convinced by the climate change argument. I’m just voting out loud. So we’ll just have to differ on this one.

    .

    Government drives the man made global warming fraud. The executive branch demands it be implemented by all cabinets. New government will change that. Watch how fast it will happen. Watch how fast without climate change fear mongering paid for by government it just disappears, abandoned as thoroughly as previous claims of a flat earth or that of a sun that orbits the earth.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58401
    bnw
    Blocked

    ok. i’ll be a little more open on the climate change subject if only because i think it’s always better to remain a skeptic rather than just dogmatically cling onto an idea.

    but i also think it’s always worthwhile to look into alternative sources of energy. if for no other reason than to provide the coal business with some competition. maybe help keep energy costs down for consumers.

    solar technology i think is a good thing. i mean the the real possibility of free energy. electric cars especially in congested metropolitan cities is a good thing where the exhaust can do real damage to the local environment and to the health of those populations. i think fracking can do real damage to the local environment. maybe not the climate but again the local environment. likewise i worry about pesticides.

    and also climate deniers should always be open to the idea of man made climate change. it’s never good to just shut out ideas completely. well obviously some ideas aren’t open for debate, but this issue seems important and complex enough that it shouldn’t just be closed and shut.

    I agree alternative energies can offer great promise but the sad fact is they are not economically feasible for the needs of most people. With new discoveries involving battery technology and materials science perhaps that can change. I would prefer to use hydrocarbons for those things that have the best or sole application such as transportation, pharmaceuticals, materials etc.

    I don’t see fracking as a danger to the local environment but I do see it as a real threat to future potential fresh water resources if not undertaken correctly.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58403
    bnw
    Blocked

    <span class=”d4pbbc-font-color” style=”color: blue”>I am way more worried about fresh water reserves, I don’t consider man made climate change an issue, Invader.</span>

    Yes, without question. Fresh water resources should be given far more consideration and protection than simply the obvious surface water quality. Aquifer recharge zones must be protected better and expanded within historic range whenever possible. Large aquifers must be protected for the future and fracking should only be allowed if it doesn’t threaten significant groundwater resources.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58405
    bnw
    Blocked

    i think it’s always better to remain a skeptic rather than just dogmatically cling onto an idea.

    Those are not the only 2 alternatives.

    People who see climate change as man-made see themselves as going with the science, and also lament the damage that the (well-funded) deniers campaign has had in the USA (though nowhere else).

    We don’t see it as being “dogmatic.” I do see things like the reps in Congress putting pressure on both the CIA and the Pentagon to “flip” on this, when in fact both the CIA and Pentagon are well aware of the risks c.change poses to the country and the world.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-pentagon-climate-change-how-climate-deniers-put-national-security-at-risk-20150212

    I also see, and heavily count, things like this:

    One survey of earth scientists found that while 97 per cent of actively publishing climate scientists agree humans are changing global temperatures, only 47 per cent of economic geologists (those who study geology with a view to its commerical exploitation) concur (pdf). In fact, among all earth scientists, economic geologists are the most sceptical.

    Those geologists working within paleoclimatology and palynology are the most skeptical since they study the climate as existed in earth’s past. They know climate change is a natural cyclical phenomena throughout earths past. There also isn’t any correlation between elevated CO2 and global warming in the earths past. The fact is the earth has been cooling for the last 65 million years. Global cooling is the far greater threat to mankind.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58406
    bnw
    Blocked

    We don’t see it as being “dogmatic.” I do see things like the reps in Congress putting pressure on both the CIA and the Pentagon to “flip” on this, when in fact both the CIA and Pentagon are well aware of the risks c.change poses to the country and the world.

    Exactly. It’s not dogmatic to support the position backed by the preponderance of evidence. It’s dogmatic to support the position not backed up by evidence.

    I believe you are a physician? Or are employed as a medical technician of some sort? If so then when treating a patient do you IGNORE the patients prior medical history? Because ignoring the preponderance of geological evidence disputing the concept of man made global warming is exactly what is happening in “climate science” today. That dogmatic vacuum is not how real science works.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58408
    bnw
    Blocked

    <span class=”d4pbbc-font-color” style=”color: blue”>I am way more worried about fresh water reserves, I don’t consider man made climate change an issue, Invader.</span>

    I agree that the depleting water reserves issue is a huge problem though obviously I disagree with you on the impact of climate change.

    Here’s the thing about climate change. Whether you believe the current episode is being driven by man’s activities or not, climate change ALWAYS leads to large extinction events. So no matter what, it will be an issue.

    Yes, but the large extinction events are most likely from global cooling.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58410
    bnw
    Blocked

    It doesn’t matter whether people believe in climate change or not. The planet doesn’t care.

    The problem is that the response will end up being those who bemoan the fact we didn’t do anything about it–or enough about it to make a difference. Or, there will be those who say–there was never anything we could have done about it anyway.

    No matter what happens, no one will be convinced of anything.

    Except the planet’s warming. That will be hard to ignore.

    No. Earth is cooling.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #58415
    Agamemnon
    Moderator

    I agree that the depleting water reserves issue is a huge problem though obviously I disagree with you on the impact of climate change.

    Here’s the thing about climate change. Whether you believe the current episode is being driven by man’s activities or not, climate change ALWAYS leads to large extinction events. So no matter what, it will be an issue.

    I believe the climate is constantly changing. We have had a golden period in the history of the earth. How long will that last? It took 10 minny ice ages to kill the large mammals in North America or maybe the humans did it?

    It is ok to think I am wrong. I won’t get upset.

    Agamemnon

    #58423
    PA Ram
    Participant

    It doesn’t matter whether people believe in climate change or not. The planet doesn’t care.

    The problem is that the response will end up being those who bemoan the fact we didn’t do anything about it–or enough about it to make a difference. Or, there will be those who say–there was never anything we could have done about it anyway.

    No matter what happens, no one will be convinced of anything.

    Except the planet’s warming. That will be hard to ignore.

    No. Earth is cooling.

    Uh huh. Well–like I said. Anyway–tell me that you aren’t the sort of climate denying skeptic who believes that some invisible man in the sky will save us anyway? Because–I’ve never been able to wrap my mind around that sort of critical thinking, “skeptic”. See–some climate deniers believe firmly and without doubt in something there is absolutely no physical evidence for–unless you believe in junk science, of course.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

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