Anybody think the CIA has changed?

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  • #70039
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I strongly recommend reading these old Stockwell quotes. I think they were written back around the Reagan years, but i dunno.

    After reading them ask yerself if you think the CIA has changed for the better. Anybody think things are different now? Better now? Worse?

    I personally think the CIA is more powerful than ever, and worse than ever. A murderous, murderous, murderous organization dedicated to keeping the corporotacracy going. Just my opinion. All views are welcome. Let a thousand flowers bloom.

    wv

    ==========================
    link:http://whale.to/b//stockwell_q.html

    “The CIA and the big corporations were, in my experience, in step with each other. Later I realized that they may argue about details of strategy – a small war here or there. However, both are vigorously committed to supporting the system.”
    The Praetorian Guard: The U.S. Role in the New World Order.

    “The major function of secrecy in Washington is to keep the U.S. people and U.S. Congress from knowing what the nation’s leaders are doing.”
    The Praetorian Guard: The U.S. Role in the New World Order.

    “… the CIA had been running thousands of operations over the years… there have been about 3,000 major covert operations and over 10,000 minor operations… all designed to disrupt, destabilize, or modify the activities of other countries… But they are all illegal and they all disrupt the normal functioning, often the democratic functioning, of other societies. They raise serious questions about the moral responsibility of the United States in the international society of nations.” The Praetorian Guard: The U.S. Role in the New World Order.

    “…the CIA has overthrown functioning democracies in over 20 countries. The Praetorian Guard:” The U.S. Role in the New World Order.

    “…stirring up deadly ethnic and racial strife has been a standard technique used by the CIA.”
    The Praetorian Guard: The U.S. Role in the New World Order.

    “Enemies are necessary for the wheels of the U.S. military machine to turn.”
    ―John Stockwell

    “…We had the ‘public safety program’ going throughout Central and Latin America for 26 years, in which we taught them to break up subversion by interrogating people. Interrogation, including torture, the way the CIA taught it. Dan Metrione, the famous exponent of these things, did 7 years in Brazil and 3 in Uruguay, teaching interrogation, teaching torture. He was supposed to be the master of the business, how to apply the right amount of pain, at just the right times, in order to get the response you want from the individual.

    They developed a wire. They gave them crank generators, with ‘U.S. AID’ written on the side, so the people even knew where these things came from. They developed a wire that was strong enough to carry the current and fine enough to fit between the teeth, so you could put one wire between the teeth and the other one in or around the genitals and you could crank and submit the individual to the greatest amount of pain, supposedly, that the human body can register.

    Now how do you teach torture? Dan Metrione: ‘I can teach you about torture, but sooner or later you’ll have to get involved. You’ll have to lay on your hands and try it yourselves.’

    …. All they [the guinea pigs, beggars from off the streets] could do was lie there and scream. And when they would collapse, they would bring in doctors and shoot them up with vitamin B and rest them up for the next class. And when they would die, they would mutilate the bodies and throw them out on the streets, to terrify the population so they would be afraid of the police and the government.

    And this is what the CIA was teaching them to do. And one of the women who was in this program for 2 years – tortured in Brazil for 2 years – she testified internationally when she eventually got out. She said, ‘The most horrible thing about it was in fact, that the people doing the torture were not raving psychopaths.’ She couldn’t break mental contact with them the way you could if they were psychopath. They were very ordinary people….”
    [1987 Lecture] THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA: by John Stockwell

    “… in 1965 the CIA organized an operation to discredit the Communist party in Indonesia. Their strategy was to make the party appear to be secretly planning a violent takeover of Indonesian society. The truth was that the Indonesian Communist Party was doing quite well to obtain representation in the Indonesian government through the democratic process. That was what made it so threatening to the United States. They simply could not have an example of legitimate and successful participation by the Communists in the democratic process.
    The techniques of the Indonesian destabilization were classic: CIA agents planted caches of arms that would then be “found” by Indonesian police under the watchful eye of the alerted media. Along with the arms would be all kinds of forged documents proving that the Communists were fomenting a violent uprising. Propaganda agents planted stories in the media, inflaming the mistrust of the Communists. Others gave speeches. The situation heated up until some generals in the Indonesian army were killed, and the boil of tension burst. The Indonesian army went after the Communists and the people they felt traditionally supported the Communists. The result was a bloodbath that the New York Times described in terms half a million to a million and a half dead. The Australian secret service, closer to Indonesia, put the figure at closer to two million-the rivers were clogged with the bodies of the dead.
    In the summer of 1990, the U.S. State Department acknowledged that it had indeed delivered lists of names, of people who were subsequently killed, to the Indonesian government.
    The CIA’s own internal reporting estimated that 800,000 people had been killed. The organization published a cover story through the Library of Congress that the Communist Party had supported a classic insurrection, which the army had put down. However, internal CIA reports cited the operation as a classic success in which they had targeted the world’s thirdlargest Communist Party and aided the Indonesian army by providing thousands of names of suspected individuals and completely eliminated from the face of the earth not only the party, but the ethnic Chinese in Indonesia who tended to support the Communists. Simply put, this is a classic case of genocide that was engineered by the CIA and cited as a model to be copied elsewhere….”
    Secret Third World Wars

    “…Coming to grips with these U.S./CIA activities in broad numbers and figuring out how many people have been killed in the jungles of Laos or the hills of Nicaragua is very difficult. But, adding them up as best we can, we come up with a figure of six million people killed-and this is a minimum figure. Included are: one million killed in the Korean War, two million killed in the Vietnam War, 800,000 killed in Indonesia, one million in Cambodia, 20,000 killed in Angola … and 22,000 killed in Nicaragua. These people would not have died if U.S. tax dollars had not been spent by the CIA to inflame tensions, finance covert political and military activities and destabilize societies.
    The six million people the CIA has helped to kill are people of the Mitumba Mountains of the Congo, the jungles of Southeast Asia, and the hills of northern Nicaragua. They are people without ICBMs or armies or navies, incapable of doing physical damage to the United States, the 22,000 killed in Nicaragua, for example, are not Russians; they are not Cuban soldiers or advisors; they are not even mostly Sandinistas. A majority are rag-poor peasants, including large numbers of women and children.
    Communists? Hardly, since the dead Nicaraguans are predominantly Roman Catholics. Enemies of the United States? That description doesn’t fit either, because the thousands of witnesses who have lived in Nicaraguan villages with the people since 1979 testify that the Nicaraguans are the warmest people on the face of the earth, that they love people from the United States, and they simply cannot understand why our leaders would want to spend $1 billion on a contra force designed to murder people and wreck the country.”
    Secret Third World Wars by John Stockwell

    “The major economic impetus behind the Third World War … is the production of arms. Every day $3 billion worth of weapons is bought and sold. So-called defense corporations are making 20-25 percent profit. In the 1980s, the United States spent a total of $2.5 trillion (at least those were the announced figures, the total was probably much greater) on the largest arms buildup perhaps in the history of the world and certainly of any country during peacetime.”
    The Praetorian Guard: The U.S. Role in the New World Order.

    #70040
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    The CIA has never been one thing. It has never been unified either. Just as the Hoover FBI isn’t the same thing as the current FBI. So what is it now? Well not the little sisters of the poor, but, it is interesting to ask.

    #70060
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The CIA has never been one thing. It has never been unified either. Just as the Hoover FBI isn’t the same thing as the current FBI. So what is it now? Well not the little sisters of the poor, but, it is interesting to ask.

    ================

    Well to me, thats like saying “Charles Manson has never been one thing.”

    True, Manson is probably nice to his mother, and gives to charity and brushes his teeth. But the bad parts of Manson are…ya know.

    w
    v

    #70075
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    It’s really no mystery why people choose a six-pack and a television rather than read books by John Stockwell.

    We are so fucking doomed. I’m sorry to say it again. It’s been the main refrain of this board for a few years. But just nothing we know about the world suggests that we can fix its problems with a nice bit of legislation that allows people to pee in the bathroom of their choice, or whatever.

    #70078
    PA Ram
    Participant

    It’s really no mystery why people choose a six-pack and a television rather than read books by John Stockwell.

    We are so fucking doomed. I’m sorry to say it again. It’s been the main refrain of this board for a few years. But just nothing we know about the world suggests that we can fix its problems with a nice bit of legislation that allows people to pee in the bathroom of their choice, or whatever.

    Amen!

    That’s why I have this dismal signature quote from Delillo. It feels like we’re racing madly toward our self-destruction. A Bernie supporter somehow feels like gunning down congressmen is the frustrated answer to whatever troubled him. Was he insane? Probably. But mankind feels insane now. People don’t just kill themselves anymore–they take others with them. It feels like a self-destruct switch has flipped. Yes–mankind may have always been on this course but it feels like it’s on fast forward now.

    The institutions are openly corrupt now. Nothing seems to matter. Grab what you can on the way out the door .

    Very sad.

    I have no answers.

    Go see a good movie.

    I’m going to see “47 Meters Down” Sunday. It’s about two girls in a disconnected shark tank, surrounded by sharks and running out of oxygen.

    Seems like everyday life, in other words.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #70086
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    It’s really no mystery why people choose a six-pack and a television rather than read books by John Stockwell.

    We are so fucking doomed.

    Interestingly enough, Stockwell doesn;t think that way.

    I generally find that people with the most negative assessments are just prone to that, personally. I don’t think it’s analysis. I think it’s a predisposition.

    Do I have a different predisposition? Yes. Is it BETTER? No, obviously. It’s just different. I see myself as a kind of cautiously optimistic Vulcan.

    So, live long and post on.

    #70092
    PA Ram
    Participant

    Interestingly enough, Stockwell doesn;t think that way.

    I generally find that people with the most negative assessments are just prone to that, personally. I don’t think it’s analysis. I think it’s a predisposition.

    Do I have a different predisposition? Yes. Is it BETTER? No, obviously. It’s just different. I see myself as a kind of cautiously optimistic Vulcan.

    So, live long and post on.

    Even Spock can’t save us—he’s gone.

    I am more of a pessimistic tribble. But we’re growing in number.

    We think the Rams may win 2 games this year.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #70098
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    It’s really no mystery why people choose a six-pack and a television rather than read books by John Stockwell.

    We are so fucking doomed.

    Interestingly enough, Stockwell doesn;t think that way.

    I generally find that people with the most negative assessments are just prone to that, personally. I don’t think it’s analysis. I think it’s a predisposition.

    Do I have a different predisposition? Yes. Is it BETTER? No, obviously. It’s just different. I see myself as a kind of cautiously optimistic Vulcan.

    So, live long and post on.

    =======================

    What evidence are you basing your ‘cautious optimism’ on ?

    Cause the air, water, and ground are getting more polluted everyday.

    w
    v

    w
    v

    #70103
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Cause the air, water, and ground are getting more polluted everyday.

    Well, for one thing, I base it on the firm belief that people mired in hopelessness never accomplish anything.

    #70116
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Cause the air, water, and ground are getting more polluted everyday.

    Well, for one thing, I base it on the firm belief that people mired in hopelessness never accomplish anything.

    =====================
    So your optimism is based on faith, not evidence.

    w
    v

    #70118
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Cause the air, water, and ground are getting more polluted everyday.

    Well, for one thing, I base it on the firm belief that people mired in hopelessness never accomplish anything.

    =====================
    So your optimism is based on faith, not evidence.

    w
    v

    No my evidence is based on the fact that people who accomplish things have hope and the energy that comes with it. Plus there are of course signs, like the fact that in spite of Trump withdrawing from the Paris accord, states and cities AND a number of powerful businesses are committing to it on their own. It’s like he’;s creating a movement.

    I also know that human beings construct narratives based on “ideas of human nature,” like the fact that we’re doomed and that that’s unstoppable. It turns out anyone who wants to offer an idea of “human nature” can “see” evidence for it. That’s because human nature is contradictory, diverse, and unsettled, so anything you want to “prove” you can. I never see the “proof” that we are doomed, or that we are cattle who must be ruled by an elite, or any similar kind of dark narrative. I always only see people committing to a way of perceiving the world.

    /

    It then gets down to what beliefs are best. I sign up with democracy, progress, hope, being humane, and resisting destructive forces of greed.

    #70131
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    “…I generally find that people with the most negative assessments are just prone to that, personally. I don’t think it’s analysis. I think it’s a predisposition.”

    Well, i know you think that, and thats ok and all,
    but its almost impossible not to take that as an insult if you are on the receiving end of that kind of thinking. Its like you end up dismissing other people’s views by waving them off as ‘predispositions’ or personality traits.

    Now, you may very well be right. But…it would be like me saying “well zn, i just think of views like yours as reflective of people who cant face dark facts and evidence and have to invent rainbows and sunshine, etc”

    See where that leads? That ‘your argument is based on predisposition’ thing ?

    Again, though, it may very well be true. But who knows. And. It creates a tricky dynamic.

    w
    v

    #70135
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Well, i know you think that, and thats ok and all,
    but its almost impossible not to take that as an insult if you are on the receiving end of that kind of thinking. Its like you end up dismissing other people’s views by waving them off as ‘predispositions’ or personality traits.

    Well I won’t do that again because it has all the bad effects you name. So mea culpa.

    But just a couple of things to decrease the weight a little.

    First, I said the same about myself though. I did, I even made fun of it. I called myself a cautiously optimistic vulcan.

    Also:

    But…it would be like me saying “well zn, i just think of views like yours as reflective of people who cant face dark facts and evidence and have to invent rainbows and sunshine, etc”

    Truth is, if someone were thinking that, and said it in a non-hostile way, I would just answer it. I would just say that in most complex situations there are never only dark facts, there’s usually a complex of intermingled things, and that focusing on only one aspect of that is selective.

    Okay all that aside.

    Let me ask this. What’s the difference between saying “we’re doomed” and “I give up”? (And I respect burn-out btw.)

    And remember, to me, saying we’re doomed isn’t based on evidence, it’s based on a certain way of interpreting SOME of the evidence. So my counter-claim is that human nature isn’t a homogeneous enough or unitary enough thing to make predictive claims about the future. If it were that settled then we would all still be under the Egyptian empire with no real change. Meanwhile the concept of human rights is only about 300 years old.

    #70136
    PA Ram
    Participant

    ZN,

    I am glad you are an optimist. We still need those too. By nature, I’m probably more of a pessimist. At least I’m that way when it comes to humans in general. And of course, sports teams. But I do try to be optimistic where I can, I do prefer that. I’m sure it’s better for you than being a pessimist and, of course, neither one is really changing the place we find ourselves in these days.

    But I WANT to believe that better things are ahead. I don’t want to see things through such a dark filter.

    But humans constantly let me down.

    So I will always do the little things I can(voting for the good guy–or the less evil one if there are no good choices, helping my friends and family when possible, making my voice heard when I can)and I will look for positive signs.

    There is nothing wrong with being an optimist.

    But a lot of us just can’t feel that right now. It’s not that we don’t want to–it’s that we can’t. At least that’s how I feel. I hate coming onto the board and being Debbie Downer all the time. I hate it. I hate feeling that way to the point that for my mental health I just have to ignore the world from time to time–just live in my own bubble and forget about it. Just pretend it doesn’t exist.

    But that helps relieve the mental stress of watching the disaster day in and day out.

    Reading books like the one I’m reading about health care costs doesn’t particularly help but at least I feel I’m learning something. The book I’m reading about a WWII Nazi concentration camp escape is much more fun(despite the –you know–concentration camp stuff). But I’ve gone a week or so with a news blackout and felt great.

    And yet–being a news junkie I always come back.

    So being a pessimist sorta sucks.

    It’s important to read positive views.

    Keep posting them.

    It may not change the way I think, but it can’t hurt.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #70138
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Okay all that aside.

    Let me ask this. What’s the difference between saying “we’re doomed” and “I give up”? (And I respect burn-out btw.)

    And remember, to me, saying we’re doomed isn’t based on evidence, it’s based on a certain way of interpreting SOME of the evidence. So my counter-claim is that human nature isn’t a homogeneous enough or unitary enough thing to make predictive claims about the future. If it were that settled then we would all still be under the Egyptian empire with no real change. Meanwhile the concept of human rights is only about 300 years old.

    ===============

    Well fwiw:
    1) I usually say what amounts to “we’re PROBABLY doomed, bash on relentlessly anyway.” Kinda relying on the same wellspring that Malraux is probly talking about here:

    “The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung at random between this profusion of matter and the stars, but that within this prison we can draw from ourselves images powerful enough to deny our nothingness.”
    Les Noyers de l’Altenburg: Andre Malraux

    So i never say ‘give up.’ But i do say we are probably doomed.

    2) I try to remember to say “probably” doomed all the time, but sometimes i forget. The probably indicates I cant tell the future. No-one can. So humility is necessary. Having said that the evidence suggesting doom looks like a Tsunami to me. Looks to me like we are in a unique time, and the mountain of evidence is bad. The Bernies and Corbyns look like small armies in a fort surrounded by a big army of white walkers.
    I mean even if a Bernie of Corbyn got elected the corporotacracy would wait them out. Same way they waited out Chavez and Venezuela and now Castro in Cuba. The corporotacracy doesn’t die and it doesnt go anywhere. And i think its different from any ancient Egyptian empires.

    3) My views on all this have darkened over the last year or so. But i dont think its my disposition — i think I’m just following the evidence.
    …Btw…You havent changed but i have. And its got nuthin to do with Trump. I’d feel the same way if Hillary had stolen the election instead of Trump.

    4) I agree we are all comrads here, we are all parts of the leftist-tree, and there’s room for various kinds of leftists. We just have to work on talking to each other, communicating. Like in any relationship that is a never-ending but rewarding process.

    w
    v

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