Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Rams Huddle › How Kromer uses OGs
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June 1, 2017 at 11:24 pm #69608
znModeratorfrom Pre-camp check: Centers and guards
June, 26, 2014
http://dynamic.espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bears/post?id=4692690
Overview: Keeping the interior of the pocket clean allows the quarterback to step up and follow through on throws, and in 2013 the trio of starters Roberto Garza, Kyle Long and Matt Slauson certainly allowed the Chicago Bears’ signal callers to do that with relative ease.
“We want the protection system to start from the inside out,” offensive coordinator Aaron Kromer said.
It’s probably safe to say the interior of Chicago’s offensive line is its strength, and should only improve with the team bringing back all the starters while ramping up the competition at some of the backup spots.
“It’s exciting,” Slauson said. “This is the first time in my career where all five guys have stayed the same. Hopefully we can build off all the progress we made last year.”
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Bears’ new line: Guards valued over tackles
Kromer installing Saints philosophy that protection starts from inside outMay 09, 2013
Dan PompeiIf you want to know why the Bears used their first-round draft pick on a guard for the first time in 52 years, cast your gaze in the vicinity of Bourbon Street.
In New Orleans, where the Saints play a level of offense only dreamed about in Chicago, guards are more important than tackles. And the Bears are adopting the Saints’ philosophy.
Conventional wisdom no longer applies on the Bears offensive line, which is why Kyle Long will be the focal point when rookie camp opens Friday at Halas Hall.
“We feel protection starts from the inside out,” said offensive coordinator Aaron Kromer, who came to the Bears in the offseason from the Saints, for whom he was the offensive line coach. “With the Saints we really felt we needed to keep the interior part of the defensive line at the line of scrimmage in protection, so we put a big emphasis on our guard position to do that. We feel that same way here.”
From the first time Long puts on pads, he will be the Bears’ most talented offensive lineman. They could line him up at tackle, but they are putting him at guard in part because that’s the position they want their most talented lineman to play.
In the passing scheme being installed by coach Marc Trestman and Kromer, the Bears rather would risk pressure from an outside rush than an inside rush. An argument can be made that interior rushes have become considerably more effective in recent years as coordinators have schemed more inside blitzes. And it is easier to help tackles than guards.
“If they can get in the face of your quarterback, it’s a problem in the throwing game,” Kromer said. “So we try to keep them on the line of scrimmage (with interior blockers) and control our edges and help our tackles with formation, tight end presence and back presence.”
Interior protection probably was more important for the Saints than it will be for the Bears because of the quarterbacks involved. Drew Brees, at 6 feet, is a good 3 inches shorter than Jay Cutler. Shorter quarterbacks have more vision issues when defenders are pushing the pocket.
“But as you grow with it and continue to study the protection system, you realize it helps any quarterback,” Kromer said.
Some of Cutler’s inconsistencies in 2012 probably were rooted in his feeling unsettled because of interior pressure or the consistent threat of it.
An emphasis on guards was apparent when Trestman and Kromer were assistants with the Raiders a decade ago. Among the Oakland guards during that time were eight-time Pro Bowl selection Steve Wisniewski, first-round draft pick Mo Collins and 330-pound Frank Middleton.
In New Orleans, the guards Kromer coached included four-time Pro Bowler Jahri Evans, two-time Pro Bowler Carl Nicks and Ben Grubbs, once a first-round pick of the Ravens.
An athletic guard who can move his feet is all well and good, but what Trestman and Kromer really are looking for is powerhouses who could win an airplane pull. It’s about being stronger than the player across the line and the ability to set the pocket.
In all the talk about Long’s athleticism, the power he is capable of generating has been overlooked. When general manager Phil Emery introduced Long at a Halas Hall news conference, he said, “Besides the athletic ability … beyond the (football) smarts … is his toughness and his physicalness in his style of play.”
The other guards also should give the Bears more physical play than they had in the interior last year.
Kromer said the tape he has studied shows free-agent addition Matt Slausen can set the pocket. That’s why he’s a Bear.
“He’s very strong, and he has a powerful anchor point,” one NFL talent evaluator said.
Even Gabe Carimi, should he get on the field, is capable of giving the Bears muscle inside. Despite not having his leg strength after offseason surgery, he arguably was the most physical guard last year in three starts there.
In the 93-year history of the Bears, guards mostly have been afterthoughts. But as the presence of Long will remind us this weekend, that is not the case anymore.
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For Bears, guards are the new tackles
New Bears offensive coordinator Aaron Kromer emphasizes the interior of his offensive line over the bookend tackle spots, the more traditional “premium” spots in the trenches. What does this mean for the Bears and specifically some of their draft picks?
May 13, 2013
Many were surprised when the Bears made Kyle Long the 20th overall pick in last month’s draft. It was reported that Long was considered a prospect at guard who could eventually slide out to a tackle spot. Bears fans and reporters alike cheered this notion, the idea that the Bears picked a guy who could anchor an interior spot now but eventually be the franchise tackle that the team has lacked since John Tait retired back in 2008.
Fans will note that since that time, the team has been better at drafting tackles who end up being guards (Gabe Carimi, Lance Louis) or drafting left tackles who end up better on the right (J’Marcus Webb). Either way, the idea that the Bears might finally be turning the page on the shabbily built lines of recent seasons was welcome relief.
But the new coaching staff of Marc Trestman and Kromer have other ideas. The two believe in building an offensive line from the inside out.
Writes Dan Pompei:
“We feel protection starts from the inside out,” said offensive coordinator Aaron Kromer, who came to the Bears in the offseason from the Saints, for whom he was the offensive line coach. “With the Saints we really felt we needed to keep the interior part of the defensive line at the line of scrimmage in protection, so we put a big emphasis on our guard position to do that. We feel that same way here.”
This idea is something Kromer did with the New Orleans Saints, making guards Jahri Evans and Ben Grubbs household names, in addition to building Carl Nicks from a 5th round pick to one of the highest paid guards in the league.
The reasoning behind this is two-fold: one, in an offense like what Sean Payton uses or Trestman’s West Coast scheme, guards help establish the pocket for the quarterback and second, in the run game, it uses a lot of athletic, fast, pulling guards to get outside and downfield to block defenders.
From the first time Long puts on pads, he will be the Bears’ most talented offensive lineman. They could line him up at tackle, but they are putting him at guard in part because that’s the position they want their most talented lineman to play.
In the passing scheme being installed by coach Marc Trestman and Kromer, the Bears rather would risk pressure from an outside rush than an inside rush. An argument can be made that interior rushes have become considerably more effective in recent years as coordinators have schemed more inside blitzes. And it is easier to help tackles than guards.
In addition to Long, the Bears’ fifth round pick Jordan Mills projects to be either a guard or a tackle as well. It is my hunch that the Bears believe that Kromer will either try to mold him into a starting guard, or perhaps to be the swing tackle and a most valued back up for the future.By most accounts, Mills has a long way to go with his footwork, something a teacher like Kromer should be able to coach into him, so I suspect he could be a project for a guard position down the road.
The Bears are entering a brave new offensive world and at some point it projects to be an improvement over the deficiency seen in recent seasons. Expect the reboot in the trenches to start from the inside out. If Trestman and Kromer can find their anchor guards, to match their anchor LT Jermon Bushrod, and can get a serviceable RT, that will be more than enough to drop the sack numbers Jay Cutler has suffered.
I also suspect Kromer will be working to find a replacement for Roberto Garza down the road. He was successful in molding an undrafted center who bounced around the league, Brian de la Puente, into a solid starter in New Orleans. Garza’s heir could be a guy already on the team or it could be a future draft pick.
The fact is, the Bears should have a solid line for years to come, from the inside, out.
June 1, 2017 at 11:30 pm #69609znModerator.
MORE ON KROMER***
Apr 14, 2015
Kromer has had all of a week with his linemen in the offensive line room as the second week of Buffalo’s offseason conditioning program just got underway Monday. Work on the field however, is still a couple of weeks away. So for now Kromer’s focus with his players is to instill the base blocking concepts and how they pertain to offensive coordinator Greg Roman’s system.
“The most important thing is understanding the fundamentals that we’re going to employ and just applying them to the scheme right now,” said Kromer. “They can’t go out and do it yet, so they just have to have in their mind the reasons why things are happening in these plays and where they fit in. With the basic fundamentals and the basic schemes, then carry it over to the overall schemes that we’re trying to put together. Guys can feel better about a new scheme or a new offense if they do that.”
By the time training camp rolls around, Kromer along with Roman hopes a starting offensive line will be taking shape.
“You try to find a starting O-line, which is a long way down the road, and then you try to find guys who can fit into multiple spots because when you only dress seven in a game they have to be multiple and play both guards or guard and tackle on one side,” Kromer said. “However it fits with the personnel we have at the end that’s how you have to use them.”
June 1, 2017 at 11:32 pm #69610znModeratorSaints linemen: Bears lucky to have Aaron Kromer
Feb 7, 2013
Saints offensive linemen who were coached by Aaron Kromer are convinced that their counterparts in Chicago will love playing for the new Bears offensive coordinator/offensive line coach.
“The Bears are getting a great coach in Aaron Kromer,” said Saints center Brian de la Puente. “He’s great in coaching different techniques, working with everybody on an individual level and working to their strengths. The Bears are lucky to have him. I know we’re sad to see him leave.”
Aaron Kromer chats with Saints offensive tackle Zach Strief on the New Orleans sideline. Marc Trestman hired Kromer Jan. 16, less than 24 hours after being named Bears head coach. An NFL assistant since 2001, Kromer spent the past five seasons with the Saints, coaching running backs in 2008 before working with the offensive line/running game from 2009-12.
“First and foremost the Bears are getting a coach who really understands offensive football and will bring a lot of knowledge and experience,” said Saints tackle Zach Strief. “I also think they’re getting a guy who relates incredibly well to his players and can get them to do things other coaches can’t because of the respect level he will garner.”
In Kromer’s four seasons tutoring the offensive line, New Orleans sent five linemen to a combined nine Pro Bowls and tied for the fewest sacks allowed in the NFL with 96. The all-stars included tackles Jermon Bushrod (2012) and Jon Stinchcomb (2010), guards Jahri Evans (2010-13) and Carl Nicks (2011-12) and center Jonathan Goodwin (2010).
“[Kromer’s] greatest strength is that he’s very versatile and receptive to the players, and you want to play for a guy like that,” De la Puente said. “Working alongside someone who is willing to help and put the work in is something you look for in a coach. As a player, you get lucky when you come across a coach like that. I’m very lucky to have gotten the opportunity to play for him and selfishly sad to see him leave.”
This season the Saints ranked second in the NFL in total yards with 410.9 per game and third in scoring with 28.8 points. They also permitted only 26 sacks, tied for the third fewest in the league.
In 2011, the Saints set NFL records with 7,474 total yards (467.1 per game) and 5,347 passing yards (334.2) while ranking second in scoring (34.2 points) and tied for second with 24 sacks.
Strief feels that Kromer’s greatest strength as a coach is the way he relates to his players.
“What guys will notice quickly is that he’s a guy that gives professionals a lot of respect,” Strief said. “The way that he relates with his players and communicates with them is unlike anybody I’ve been around. He will bring a family atmosphere to that room that will cultivate the types of relationships that you need on an offensive line.”
De La Puente entered the NFL in 2008 as an undrafted free agent with the 49ers. After getting cut by San Francisco, he spent portions of his first three seasons with the Chiefs, Seahawks and Panthers before re-signing with the 49ers-all without ever appearing in a regular-season game.
After De La Puente joined the Saints in 2011, however, Kromer helped groom him into a starter. De La Puente has started 28 of 32 games played the last two years, including all 16 in 2012 when he was ranked New Orleans’ top offensive lineman by Pro Football Focus.
“[Kromer] was very important in my success the last couple of years,” De La Puente said. “Him believing in me and giving me the chance to play was huge in my career. I’m very thankful to coach Kromer for that opportunity. His ability to develop speaks volumes about his coaching.”
June 2, 2017 at 12:35 am #69617
AgamemnonParticipantIn a side note to that, we have “The Dominate” inside pass rusher, Aaron Donald.
With more quick passes used by offenses, outside pass rushers have less time to get to the QB. Maybe that is a factor?
Offensive philosophies are evolving. I can see that. But it is always nice to be able to do it all. 😉
AgamemnonJune 2, 2017 at 2:48 am #69626znModeratorSYNOPSIS
the new coaching staff of Marc Trestman and Kromer…believe in building an offensive line from the inside out.
n New Orleans, where the Saints play a level of offense only dreamed about in Chicago, guards are more important than tackles. And the Bears are adopting the Saints’ philosophy.
Conventional wisdom no longer applies on the Bears offensive line
“We feel protection starts from the inside out,” said offensive coordinator Aaron Kromer, who came to the Bears in the offseason from the Saints, for whom he was the offensive line coach. “With the Saints we really felt we needed to keep the interior part of the defensive line at the line of scrimmage in protection, so we put a big emphasis on our guard position to do that. We feel that same way here.”
In the passing scheme being installed by coach Marc Trestman and Kromer, the Bears rather would risk pressure from an outside rush than an inside rush. An argument can be made that interior rushes have become considerably more effective in recent years as coordinators have schemed more inside blitzes. And it is easier to help tackles than guards.
“If they can get in the face of your quarterback, it’s a problem in the throwing game,” Kromer said. “So we try to keep them on the line of scrimmage (with interior blockers) and control our edges and help our tackles with formation, tight end presence and back presence.”
An athletic guard who can move his feet is all well and good, but what Trestman and Kromer really are looking for is powerhouses who could win an airplane pull. It’s about being stronger than the player across the line and the ability to set the pocket.
in an offense like what Sean Payton uses or Trestman’s West Coast scheme, guards help establish the pocket for the quarterback and second, in the run game, it uses a lot of athletic, fast, pulling guards to get outside and downfield to block defenders.
The Bears are getting a great coach in Aaron Kromer,” said Saints center Brian de la Puente. “He’s great in coaching different techniques, working with everybody on an individual level and working to their strengths. The Bears are lucky to have him. I know we’re sad to see him leave.”
In Kromer’s four seasons tutoring the offensive line, New Orleans sent five linemen to a combined nine Pro Bowls and tied for the fewest sacks allowed in the NFL with 96. The all-stars included tackles Jermon Bushrod (2012) and Jon Stinchcomb (2010), guards Jahri Evans (2010-13) and Carl Nicks (2011-12) and center Jonathan Goodwin (2010).
June 2, 2017 at 12:12 pm #69634znModeratorSYNOPSIS
the new coaching staff of Marc Trestman and Kromer…believe in building an offensive line from the inside out.
If you want to know about the new Kromer OL this is one of the best threads you could read. Read as much of all of it as you can.
Now on how AK uses guards—I pulled up a lot of articles on that from Chicago. There just happened to be a lot of “Kromer’s guards” articles about that (I didn’t even look at them all and just sampled them for this thread).
Why so many Chicago articles?
Because the Chicago football community wanted to know why Kromer was putting Kyle Long at guard, not tackle. According to conventional wisdom, that seemed to mean that Kromer put less value on Long. So a bunch of articles got written about how with Kromer, guard is actually more important than tackle.
Which brings us to the Rams.
Kyle Long is 6.6, 313.
Rob the Hav is 6.7, 321.
So physically anyway, Hav is Kromer’s perfect guard in the Kyle Long mold.
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June 9, 2017 at 1:24 am #69827znModeratorRob Havenstein knew something was up when he got the call, but the news could have been worse
VINCENT BONSIGNORE
Rob Havenstein knew something was up when he got called into the Rams hierarchy offices shortly after the conclusion of last season and the hiring of new head coach Sean McVay.
After concluding his second year as the Rams starting right tackle, the young lineman from Wisconsin had starter clout and a positive film foundation going for him. But with a new coach and a new vision and only a pair of seasons playing on one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL, Havenstein was taking nothing for granted upon getting the call to come meet with the new staff.
And he braced for whatever the news might be.
Turns out McVay and his staff wanted to move Havenstein from right tackle to right guard. It was a dramatic change – from a position standpoint – but it also resulted in a sigh of relief from Havenstein.
Afterall, sliding over a few feet to his left is a whole lot different than packing his belongings and moving to Green Bay or Jacksonville or the waiver wire,
“They wanted to me to move to guard rather than going somewhere else,” a relieved Havenstein remembered. “I was like, anywhere I can play anywhere I can help I’m for it. Me not having played guard before doesn’t matter. I’m taking the same approach.”
And as he gets acclimated to his new position, he understands it’s in the same world he’s used to.
“I’m still playing offensive line. I’m not playing the X Receiver position or anything,” he pointed out, laughing. “It’s just a little bit different, but as they approached me I was very receptive. If that’s how they felt I could help the team, I’m 100 percent in.”
Nevertheless, there are subtle differences in the two positions. And misconceptions can result to the uneducated eye.Like, say, what might look as the guard position being more attack oriented and the tackle spot more reactionary.
Aggression, Havenstein says, is constant in both positions even if it might not look like it on film.
It’s all in the assignment. And it’s a fine line.
‘“Whether we want to go out and get on guys or we got slide help or something like that, or a double team or we’re kinda on our own, it’s just going to be where we can control our aggression,” he said. “Where we can be aggressive and know we have help and go after guys, or we can still be aggressive but we can’t over do it where we get beat right away and we’re kind of (screwed). So, tackle (to) guard, things are just going to happen faster. It might look more aggressive because, let’s say me and (Jamon Brown) are going against someone, I’m going to get on him way faster than JB is on (someone like) Robert Quinn running up field as fast as he can, which is pretty darn fast. So it’s gonna happen for me a lot faster then it might look – like I’m being more aggressive – but the actual (way we’re being taught) it’s about when we can control it and when we have help.”
June 9, 2017 at 1:43 am #69836znModeratorNice summary.
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WestCoastRam wrote:
Kromer has installed a system ever since he’s been with the Saints that values guard higher than tackle. His lines have been built from guard out (see how Chicago put Kyle Long at guard instead of tackle when they drafted him – he easily could have been one of their top tackles). He values interior linemen with high football IQ, which is why their blocking assignments tend to be more demanding.
I think the idea is that by negating the pass rush up the middle, you can help the tackles with backs, formations and tight ends along with allowing the QB to step up into a developing pocket. Additionally, having your more dominant players at guard allows them to use their talent in the run game. Kromer wanted his better, more dominant player at guard. That’s probably a combo of athleticism, power, IQ and whatnot.
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PHDram wrote:
thinking about it this way, hav didnt really get a “demotion” at all. rather, it would seem that kromer values him quite a bit by putting him in a position of importance.
June 9, 2017 at 8:51 am #69839
InvaderRamModeratorso do we know what the rams running game will look like?
i’m assuming some combination of the bills running game with some of mcvay’s own concepts.
just curious if there’s any more info on that. i know there was mention of the inside zone mixed with some power schemes. i’ve looked online but haven’t found much.
June 9, 2017 at 9:32 am #69840znModeratorsome combination of the bills running game with some of mcvay’s own concepts.
Don’t forget LaFleur, who comes in from Atlanta, where they had a top running game too (12th in attempts, 5th in yards).
Kromer prefers a power scheme so yes it will be interesting to see how McVay collaborates with him.
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June 9, 2017 at 6:48 pm #69859InvaderRamModeratorsome combination of the bills running game with some of mcvay’s own concepts.
Don’t forget LaFleur, who comes in from Atlanta, where they had a top running game too (12th in attempts, 5th in yards).
Kromer prefers a power scheme so yes it will be interesting to see how McVay collaborates with him.
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i did find it interesting that mcvay was using washington and atlanta film to explain some concepts in otas.
so i’m guessing not just running plays from atlanta but passing concepts as well.
sounds like mcvay wants this to be very much a collaborative effort. i’m guessing this offense will be unlike the washington offense in many ways.
June 9, 2017 at 7:19 pm #69861znModeratori’m guessing this offense will be unlike the washington offense in many ways.
Well if Hav is their ROG you have to figure they are going to do a power running scheme not zone.
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June 9, 2017 at 7:29 pm #69862InvaderRamModeratori’m guessing this offense will be unlike the washington offense in many ways.
Well if Hav is their ROG you have to figure they are going to do a power running scheme not zone.
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running game will definitely be different. not just cuz of kromer but because i don’t think mcvay’s ever had a running back of gurley’s caliber.
but the passing game too. i’m anticipating that. like i said that si article was showing mcvay using atlanta film. and a lot of experts were comparing goff to ryan. now i don’t know how similar they actually are or if thats just media talk, but if they have a similar skillset i could see lafleur adding some things from that falcons offense.
i’m wondering what kinds of things they take from that passing game and fold that into mcvay’s scheme.
June 30, 2017 at 9:59 am #70606znModeratorA discussion from another board, which fits here too.
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They *think* they Hav will work at guard.
There are many, many examples in the history of pro sports of coaches *wishing* for outcomes that never happen…. so, this “they know” meme should be put to rest right now.
They think. They hope.
They don’t *know* it will work out.
ME: No it’s beyond “they think, they hope.” It’s more than that.
And at this stage it is rarely ever “they know” with any coach with any player. Heck from that point of view there are no guarantees at this stage about Whitworth, either. So I didn’t SAY “they KNOW.” I said they know more than us about Hav at guard, at this stage. Any doubts we have, logic just says they have seen those potential issues and accounted for them.
It’s not a matter of claiming THEY KNOW. So I didn’t say THEY KNOW in some sort of absolute way.
It;s a matter of benefit of the doubt AT THIS STAGE. And that’s relative. Way I see it, Kromer has already started a tallish guard in his career (Kyle Long) and it worked out. At the time, before the season, it caused controversy, because a lot of the same questions came up, and people were wondering why Kromer “undervalued” Long (scare quote not a quotation). The idea was, you put more valued athletes at tackle, not guard. Kromer had to explain and did.
Bears’ new line: Guards valued over tackles
Kromer installing Saints philosophy that protection starts from inside outMay 09, 2013
Dan PompeiFor Bears, guards are the new tackles
New Bears offensive coordinator Aaron Kromer emphasizes the interior of his offensive line over the bookend tackle spots, the more traditional “premium” spots in the trenches. What does this mean for the Bears and specifically some of their draft picks?
May 13, 2013
Am I worried? No. I give them a lot more benefit of the doubt on this than you seem to, largely because of track record. Is that a guarantee? Of course not. Could it end up not working? Sure. But I think their reasoning and their experience justifies me giving them a lot of benefit of the doubt at this point.
It’s more than just Long. Since New Orleans in 2009, he has always had top guards. Even Incognito in Buffalo played better than he ever had before. Same with Slausen in Chicago,.
So all I am personally doing with this is pretty much the same that most of us also do with McVay. Can McVay get something out of TEs? Yes his history says that. How does he do with qbs? The rise of Cousins suggests he does quite well. Is any of that a guarantee? No, not at all. Well Kromer has a longer history of success with guards than McVay does with skill players and qbs. So I give McVay the benefit of the doubt till I see otherwise, and same with Kromer.
So it;s just a difference of opinion as to how much benefit of the doubt we give Kromer. You less, me more. Both of us still basically end up saying, well we’ll see, it’s still early, who knows for sure.
June 30, 2017 at 11:47 am #70608InvaderRamModeratora lot of this is just wait and see.
i feel comfortable with the left side. i’m fairly certain havenstein can make the switch to guard and despite his height i actually think it’s his better position.
my biggest questions are sullivan and health. and right tackle. cuz no matter how strong that inside is and how good left tackle is, defenses will expose the right side if they can’t find someone to adequately play that position.
offensive line only as good as the weakest link.
at least that’s what they say.
June 30, 2017 at 5:03 pm #70611znModeratoroffensive line only as good as the weakest link.
at least that’s what they say.
I actually don’t think that’s the case. On a line, you can cover up for a player in any number of ways, especially a right OT. I think lines are more than the sum of their parts. Their coherence as a group matters more than their individual scouting reports.
June 30, 2017 at 6:19 pm #70620InvaderRamModeratori agree to a certain extent. but if you have to cover for one position that necessarily limits what you can do since you’re directing more resources to a spot than you would like to.
they’ll have to do that to a certain extent but hopefully not more than they’re comfortable with.
June 30, 2017 at 6:27 pm #70621znModeratori agree to a certain extent. but if you have to cover for one position that necessarily limits what you can do since you’re directing more resources to a spot than you would like to.
they’ll have to do that to a certain extent but hopefully not more than they’re comfortable with.
But then that’s relative because it’s true for every OL. No OL can do everything equally well. They all play to their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.
June 30, 2017 at 9:05 pm #70626
wvParticipantWell thats fascinating. Kromer seems to value Guards as much or more than Tackles?
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