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December 5, 2016 at 2:05 pm #60346ZooeyModerator
I want to know what is going on.
They have been pretty stable in terms of injuries this year, and there were higher expectations this year.
Rankings:
Sacks allowed: Rams are 8th, meaning only 7 teams have allowed more sacks.
QB hits: Middle of the pack. Ranked 17th.
Rushing: 3.3 yards per carry. Only Minnesota is worse.That isn’t getting it done. I don’t have any individual stats, and don’t know how much they would tell us. I went to PFF, but that’s a subscription site.
December 5, 2016 at 2:22 pm #60347znModeratorI want to know what is going on.
They have been pretty stable in terms of injuries this year, and there were higher expectations this year.
Rankings:
Sacks allowed: Rams are 8th, meaning only 7 teams have allowed more sacks.
QB hits: Middle of the pack. Ranked 17th.
Rushing: 3.3 yards per carry. Only Minnesota is worse.That isn’t getting it done. I don’t have any individual stats, and don’t know how much they would tell us. I went to PFF, but that’s a subscription site.
Something is off this year.
They were playing better at the end of last year.
I suspect it amounts to this–all the distractions, time off, and lack of cohesion from moving has them not gelling right as a unit. That, and add a 1st time coordinator implementing his first instal during a move.
It can’t be that overnight they all dropped in quality from the end of last year, or that the coaching hit senility in one off-season.
I think on things like this people look for the wrong things. This strikes me as being a cohesion issue.
And btw the sack rate was much lower before Goff.
December 5, 2016 at 2:37 pm #60349JackPMillerParticipantI want to know what is going on.
They have been pretty stable in terms of injuries this year, and there were higher expectations this year.
Rankings:
Sacks allowed: Rams are 8th, meaning only 7 teams have allowed more sacks.
QB hits: Middle of the pack. Ranked 17th.
Rushing: 3.3 yards per carry. Only Minnesota is worse.That isn’t getting it done. I don’t have any individual stats, and don’t know how much they would tell us. I went to PFF, but that’s a subscription site.
It comes down to coaching. These guys are poorly coached. When the Rams organization decides to go out and hire a real Head Coach, then these issues will be fixed.
December 5, 2016 at 2:58 pm #60350HramParticipantI believe it is a coaching issue.
Yet, how much can be pinned on the move?
Teams that move normally earn a poor record the next year. Teams that draft a QB normally earn a poor record the next year.
But
This was not a normal team in those circumstances. They were 7-9 last year, not 3-13. They were young, kept most of the team together and should have grown.
The online is by far the most disappointing unit to me this year. They should have been better and that should have led to 4 more wins.
I don’t get it.
December 5, 2016 at 2:59 pm #60351wvParticipantSeems to me its either personnel or zn’s ‘distractions lead to lack of cohesion’
or both.I dunno, but i ‘lean’ toward both. Which is bad.
w
vDecember 5, 2016 at 3:38 pm #60353ZooeyModeratorOn the “cohesion” question, I just have to say that that was a bigger issue last year. A bunch of rookies etc. They played together last year. They had another full training camp, OTAs, and we are now 12 games in. I know there were distractions. But I just think it is a stretch to blame OL problems on the move. So ZN and I are just going to have to accept that we are lifelong enemies there.
December 5, 2016 at 3:44 pm #60354PA RamParticipantWell the Rams are going to have to make some serious decisions. If the move is the cause of the problem–then I guess you keep the same guys next year and hope for the best. If the players are the problem–which ones? Who do you replace? And how? What is the quickest fix? If coaching is the problem then someone has to go.
The best situation is if the move was the problem. That won’t be a problem next year.
Of course if it’s some combination–well, it gets more complicated.
Move or not–they have not been able to fix it through twelve games. How long does a move hangover last? I’m not sold on the move explanation(see–I used an E word but not the other E word). At this point in the season the running game should be better–even if there were early stutters. I’d accept that more in the early schedule. Not so much now.
So for me, that leaves players or coaches.
I believe there will be changes. But the Rams have very few options considering the lack of draft choices. I’m not sure how much of an upgrade they will make. Coaching changes would not surprise me. I can see someone falling on the sword.
In any case–they have to address it.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
December 5, 2016 at 4:08 pm #60355nittany ramModeratorSeems to me its either personnel or zn’s ‘distractions lead to lack of cohesion’
or both.I dunno, but i ‘lean’ toward both. Which is bad.
w
vWell then why the hell doesn’t zn stop distracting the o-line?!
I mean, I know he is a Seahawks fan and therefore wants the Rams’ o-line to fail, but you would think in the interest of sportsmanship and fair play he wouldn’t interfere.
I guess I just grossly overestimated zn’s level of integrity.
December 5, 2016 at 4:23 pm #60358ZooeyModeratorWell the Rams are going to have to make some serious decisions. If the move is the cause of the problem–then I guess you keep the same guys next year and hope for the best. If the players are the problem–which ones? Who do you replace? And how? What is the quickest fix? If coaching is the problem then someone has to go.
The best situation is if the move was the problem. That won’t be a problem next year.
Of course if it’s some combination–well, it gets more complicated.
Move or not–they have not been able to fix it through twelve games. How long does a move hangover last? I’m not sold on the move explanation(see–I used an E word but not the other E word). At this point in the season the running game should be better–even if there were early stutters. I’d accept that more in the early schedule. Not so much now.
So for me, that leaves players or coaches.
I believe there will be changes. But the Rams have very few options considering the lack of draft choices. I’m not sure how much of an upgrade they will make. Coaching changes would not surprise me. I can see someone falling on the sword.
In any case–they have to address it.
Yeah, you just said that a lot better than I did. That is just it. They’ve had OTAs, Training Camp, preseason games, 12 games, and a bye week.
If Jared Goff can make the strides HE made while getting no playing time, those players on the OL should be better with 3/4 of the season gone. You’re right. If the move played a role, we should have seen improvement as the season progressed, but the running game just totally sucks.
Players or coaches.
The thing is that Boudreau is a very good coach. We’ve seen him work magic with a shattered Rams line, and elsewhere in the league. So what the hell? Now I have said several times I question the game schemes/playcalling (and I am not one to question playcalling usually – like I never jumped on the playcalling issue with previous OCs).
So. Maybe the guys they drafted just aren’t very good.
I wanna see the individual PFF rankings for these guys, or read some posts by some of the line play guys. RFL would be useful here, perhaps, if he is watching the Rams this year.
December 5, 2016 at 4:25 pm #60359InvaderRamModeratorpersonnel and coaching.
get rid of grob. or slide him over to guard. if you slide him over get rid of saffold. get a real left tackle. that should be their first priority above anything else.
possibly find a new center.
replace boudreau. need a new oline coach.
December 5, 2016 at 7:47 pm #60371znModeratorSo. Maybe the guys they drafted just aren’t very good.
I dont buy the “they had all this time” thing. So did every team that ever moved, and of them all, only one of them won. It just causes problems, and that includes having a first time OC install essentially a new offense for the first time during a move. In fact it’s LESS time than all those other teams had because the Rams are the first team to ever move since they cut back the amount of time teams can practice.
The problems they had this year remind me of 2011, and the way the Rams offense was out of sync then. Well that was the year they put in the McDaniels offense without an off-season. I saw the same level of out-of-syncness this year. It looks very similar to me.
I am a diehard contextista and that stuff is real. When I see it dismissed, I always only think, yeah well why are you dismissing something real.
And if the OLs guys they drafted aren’t very good why were they better as a unit by the end of 2015 after they settled after a bunch of injuries.
And Goff could improve from where he was before because he was a non-starting rookie qb with one on one qb coaching, with time to work on his game…something starters do not have since they have to work on implementing gameplans.
December 5, 2016 at 8:05 pm #60375ZooeyModeratorI dont buy the “they had all this time” thing. So did every team that ever moved, and of them all, only one of them won. It just causes problems, and that includes having a first time OC install essentially a new offense for the first time during a move. In fact it’s LESS time than all those other teams had because the Rams are the first team to ever move since they cut back the amount of time teams can practice.
The problems they had this year remind me of 2011, and the way the Rams offense was out of sync then. Well that was the year they put in the McDaniels offense without an off-season. I saw the same level of out-of-syncness this year. It looks very similar to me.
I am a diehard contextista and that stuff is real. When I see it dismissed, I always only think, yeah well why are you dismissing something real.
And if the OLs guys they drafted aren’t very good why were they better as a unit by the end of 2015 after they settled after a bunch of injuries.
And Goff could improve from where he was before because he was a non-starting rookie qb with one on one qb coaching, with time to work on his game…something starters do not have since they have to work on implementing gameplans.
Okay, well, it is one thing to say that teams had bad years after they moved. How did those records compare with the previous year, though?
Who has moved, and what kind of team were they the year before they moved? Can you show that teams that moved mostly did worse the year they moved, or were they just bad?
The Cardinals moved. They were pretty much a lousy team anyway.
The Raiders and Rams were lousy when they left LA.
The Houston Oilers were bad when they moved.
The Colts were bad when they moved to Indianapolis.I really don’t know what we are talking about with that claim.
But the Rams showed all the signs of being a team on the rise last year. And the defense hasn’t been bad this year. Erratic, maybe. A few bad games. But overall, they seem to have been pretty good. Fewer sacks, fewer turnovers, but in the same ballpark.
The offense, though….It’s like the offense was more adversely affected by moving than the defense. And if that is the case, then Moving isn’t the main reason.
I think it is more likely that Boras’ system is the culprit, and I haven’t heard anybody claim Boras is some kind of offensive wizard with arcane schemes that take time.
To me…all signs point to Boras. Everything does.
And I admit I have Zero positive evidence to blame Boras. But it’s like…eliminate every other possibility and what remains must be true. I have been wanting to blame Boras for several weeks, and I just can’t work my way out of doing that, no matter how hard I try to find other explanations.
December 5, 2016 at 8:46 pm #60383bnwBlockedThe Rams have a very offensive line.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
December 5, 2016 at 8:56 pm #60384znModeratorut the Rams showed all the signs of being a team on the rise last year. And the defense hasn’t been bad this year. Erratic, maybe. A few bad games. But overall, they seem to have been pretty good. Fewer sacks, fewer turnovers, but in the same ballpark.
Defense = same system.
Offense = new system.
Easier to maintain continuity on defense.
December 6, 2016 at 6:33 am #60402JackPMillerParticipantut the Rams showed all the signs of being a team on the rise last year. And the defense hasn’t been bad this year. Erratic, maybe. A few bad games. But overall, they seem to have been pretty good. Fewer sacks, fewer turnovers, but in the same ballpark.
Defense = same system.
Offense = new system.
Easier to maintain continuity on defense.
It is not really a new system. It is still a Jeff Fisher offense. All it is, play calling. You just switch OCs, with Fisher’s type of coach, is just being masked. Unless he has an experienced OC like Norv Turner, per say, I’ll say it again, you are just masking it with a Fisher guy, and he is running Fisher’s plays.
December 6, 2016 at 6:57 am #60403nittany ramModeratorIt is not really a new system. It is still a Jeff Fisher offense. All it is, play calling. You just switch OCs, with Fisher’s type of coach, is just being masked. Unless he has an experienced OC like Norv Turner, per say, I’ll say it again, you are just masking it with a Fisher guy, and he is running Fisher’s plays.
It is a new system. How different it is from the previous system I can’t say, but it is new.
I could be wrong but I don’t think Fisher has an offensive system that he uses wherever he goes. He has a style. And regardless if the system in place is based on a WCO, Coryell, Erhardt, etc system, the playcalling and overall strategy will reflect his style – which is to use the run to set up play action.
December 6, 2016 at 7:10 am #60404JackPMillerParticipantIt is not really a new system. It is still a Jeff Fisher offense. All it is, play calling. You just switch OCs, with Fisher’s type of coach, is just being masked. Unless he has an experienced OC like Norv Turner, per say, I’ll say it again, you are just masking it with a Fisher guy, and he is running Fisher’s plays.
It is a new system. How different it is from the previous system I can’t say, but it is new.
I could be wrong but I don’t think Fisher has an offensive system that he uses wherever he goes. He has a style. And regardless if the system in place is based on a WCO, Coryell, Erhardt, etc system, the playcalling and overall strategy will reflect his style – which is to use the run to set up play action.
I’m just saying, the offense I am watching has been the same, or it looks like it to me. Terminology may be different, but I see the same plays being called. Of course that looks like in my eyes. This offensive system looked the same to me throughout all of Fisher’s tenure.
- This reply was modified 8 years ago by JackPMiller.
December 6, 2016 at 7:43 am #60406sanbaggerParticipantthe playcalling and overall strategy will reflect his style – which is to use the run to set up play action
That sounds like a Norv Turner offense to me…strive for run/pass ratio of 50/50.
I actually think Turner would be a good fit with Fisher and wanted them to hire him when Cleveland let him go.
BTW…For the “I love Mike Martz” guys…Martz was an assistant coach under Turner.
December 6, 2016 at 8:21 am #60407InvaderRamModeratorIt is not really a new system. It is still a Jeff Fisher offense. All it is, play calling. You just switch OCs, with Fisher’s type of coach, is just being masked. Unless he has an experienced OC like Norv Turner, per say, I’ll say it again, you are just masking it with a Fisher guy, and he is running Fisher’s plays.
It is a new system. How different it is from the previous system I can’t say, but it is new.
I could be wrong but I don’t think Fisher has an offensive system that he uses wherever he goes. He has a style. And regardless if the system in place is based on a WCO, Coryell, Erhardt, etc system, the playcalling and overall strategy will reflect his style – which is to use the run to set up play action.
well one question i have is did they change the run blocking scheme?
i remember all this talk about using the zbs last year. did they switch back to strictly man blocking?
- This reply was modified 8 years ago by InvaderRam.
December 6, 2016 at 8:29 am #60409nittany ramModeratorthe playcalling and overall strategy will reflect his style – which is to use the run to set up play action
That sounds like a Norv Turner offense to me…strive for run/pass ratio of 50/50.
I actually think Turner would be a good fit with Fisher and wanted them to hire him when Cleveland let him go.
BTW…For the “I love Mike Martz” guys…Martz was an assistant coach under Turner.
Turner is a disciple of the Coryell system as was Martz. But Turner’s style is more balanced with the run:pass ratio as you note whereas Martz liked to feature the pass.
I would love to have Turner as the Rams’ OC.
December 6, 2016 at 8:34 am #60410nittany ramModeratorIt is not really a new system. It is still a Jeff Fisher offense. All it is, play calling. You just switch OCs, with Fisher’s type of coach, is just being masked. Unless he has an experienced OC like Norv Turner, per say, I’ll say it again, you are just masking it with a Fisher guy, and he is running Fisher’s plays.
It is a new system. How different it is from the previous system I can’t say, but it is new.
I could be wrong but I don’t think Fisher has an offensive system that he uses wherever he goes. He has a style. And regardless if the system in place is based on a WCO, Coryell, Erhardt, etc system, the playcalling and overall strategy will reflect his style – which is to use the run to set up play action.
well one question i have is did they change the run blocking scheme?
i remember all this talk about using the zbs last year. did they switch back to strictly man blocking?
I don’t know, but Rich Gannon noted what he thought were problems with the blocking scheme when reviewing film in preparation for the Rams game that he did the color commentary for this season. Can’t recall which game it was. He said too often the scheme left defenders unblocked who would then disrupt the play. I don’t know how much stock to put in that though…
- This reply was modified 8 years ago by nittany ram.
December 6, 2016 at 8:45 am #60412znModeratorIt is not really a new system. It is still a Jeff Fisher offense. All it is, play calling. You just switch OCs, with Fisher’s type of coach, is just being masked. Unless he has an experienced OC like Norv Turner, per say, I’ll say it again, you are just masking it with a Fisher guy, and he is running Fisher’s plays.
It is a new system. How different it is from the previous system I can’t say, but it is new.
I could be wrong but I don’t think Fisher has an offensive system that he uses wherever he goes. He has a style. And regardless if the system in place is based on a WCO, Coryell, Erhardt, etc system, the playcalling and overall strategy will reflect his style – which is to use the run to set up play action.
Nittany’s right. And Jack you’re just now engaging in posting sheer disinformation. Fisher does not have a system he brings with him. A system involves terminology plus techniques that have to be learned, and in the history of Fisher’s teams, his different coordinators have used both variants on the WCO and on the Coryell offense (which is basically what they have now).
There is no such thing as a “Fisher system.”
And YES they DID learn a new offense this off-season, and in fact the players straightforwardly said so. Boras altered things, they installed it, players talked about it.
AND people who claim to say what a “Fisher offense” is are, in my experience, invariably just plain wrong. For example, they often neglect to notice that taking a fairly high percentage of downfield shots is a regular Fisher thing. Whenever I do the numbers on this the Rams are in the top third of the league in terms of passes of 31 yards or more.
And Jack–look. You;re on a board that values real information. What you’re doing on issues like this instead is subbing personal opinion and speculation for actual information. Well it’s not a good place to do that, because not only can we correct you in an instant, but we kind of resent the mindset that ignores that kind of thing in the first place.
December 6, 2016 at 8:50 am #60413znModeratorI don’t know, but Rich Gannon noted what he thought were problems with the blocking scheme when reviewing film in preparation for the Rams game that he did the color commentary for this season. Can’t recall which game it was. He said too often the scheme left defenders unblocked who would then disrupt the play. I don’t know how much stock to put in that thoug
LARam had a good response to that. That’s common throughout the league, the Rams don’t do it every play, and it’s a play design thing for plays going the other direction. THere’s nothing unique to the Rams about that.
December 6, 2016 at 10:26 am #60418ZooeyModeratorOkay, but I don’t know what “new system” means.
I don’t mean to be flippant, but there’s zone blocking, and man blocking, right? I don’t know these things because the only football I ever played was, “Zooey, go to the corner of the hedge, and cut hard towards the elm tree….”
But how effing difficult can this be? You’re a blocker. Block. That’s your job. Push this guy aside, and create a seam.
The fact that I am deciding between a condo in Malibu and beach house in Santa Monica shouldn’t affect the outcome of that mano a mano contest. Especially 12 weeks into the season when that decision has been made, and I have already got carpet stains in my new place.
December 6, 2016 at 11:03 am #60420sanbaggerParticipantHere’s a pretty good article
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2005/zone-blocking-vs-man-blocking
There’s quite a bit about zone blocking vs man blocking if you google around…in one of them Billick was giving a white board write up I would have liked to watch but it probably wouldn’t go over to good while I’m here at work, I’ll catch it later at home.
December 6, 2016 at 12:21 pm #60421znModeratorOkay, but I don’t know what “new system” means.
I don’t mean to be flippant, but there’s zone blocking, and man blocking, right? I don’t know these things because the only football I ever played was, “Zooey, go to the corner of the hedge, and cut hard towards the elm tree….”
But how effing difficult can this be? You’re a blocker. Block. That’s your job. Push this guy aside, and create a seam.
The fact that I am deciding between a condo in Malibu and beach house in Santa Monica shouldn’t affect the outcome of that mano a mano contest. Especially 12 weeks into the season when that decision has been made, and I have already got carpet stains in my new place.
We go over this every time the Rams learn a new system.
Yes it’s hard. You learn a new language.
The difference in changing a SYSTEM as opposed to just changing the plays you use is that you have to learn an entirely new terminology, and that’s for a fat NFL playbook.
Players describe it as being like learning a new language. The last time this came up I used this analogy—one day, they change the language on all street signs. You will get used to it but at first it always involves more thinking than acting.
No one in the NFL ever describes this experience as easy.
So no it’s not just you run some old plays you know. You have to learn an entirely new terminology, plus in the Rams system, every variable built in to every play—sight adjustments, for example.
..
December 6, 2016 at 12:45 pm #60423ZooeyModeratorThe QB has to learn an entire new language.
And Marshall Faulk because he’s Marshall Faulk.
The OL have to learn just OL language, not route tree language.
But that aside, do you think – twelve weeks into the season – that there have been no plays called where the OL understood the blocking assignments before they arrived from the huddle at the line of scrimmage?
Because they SUCK. They have sucked all year long. They have blocked for Todd Gurley and the team has mounted fewer than 80 yards rushing in 8 out of 12 games this season. I just do not accept that that is a result of not knowing their blocking assignments well enough. That cannot account for this ineptitude this deep into the season. I just do not buy that explanation as adequate to explain what we see Every Single Week. The RBs are consistently getting hit earlier than any other RBs in the league. Game after game.
December 6, 2016 at 1:04 pm #60425znModeratorThe QB has to learn an entire new language.
Yes and he’s still playing like a struggling rookie. That’s even with the fact that no one becomes a qb in the first place unless they are mentally set up to learn a system. AND the issue is unit cohesion anyway. Not everyone will be on the same page. I remember Saffold talking about learning a new system in 2011. It puts hesitation into everything. Heck Keenum was talking about this during the pre-season. It was new for him, too.
To be perfectly honest, I don’t get your forgetfulness on this. You can say other factors for you weigh more. But no one can just armchair into existence the idea that it’s easy for a team to learn an entirely new system. This has come up before, in spades, with extensive backing from articles and player comments and so on. I think for example about the switch to the McD system in 2011. It is just simply not an easy process, and that’s especially the case now, when the new CBA limits practice time. None of this is new discussion.
It’s a factor. You decide if it’s a major one. In my own history of watching the Rams I have never seen it NOT be a major factor when it happens.
December 6, 2016 at 1:15 pm #60426sanbaggerParticipantThe QB has to learn an entire new language.
Yes and he’s still playing like a struggling rookie. That’s even with the fact that no one becomes a qb in the first place unless they are mentally set up to learn a system. AND the issue is unit cohesion anyway. Not everyone will be on the same page. I remember Saffold talking about learning a new system in 2011. It puts hesitation into everything. Heck Keenum was talking about this during the pre-season. It was new for him, too.
To be perfectly honest, I don’t get your forgetfulness on this. You can say other factors for you weigh more. But no one can just armchair into existence the idea that it’s easy for a team to learn an entirely new system. This has come up before, in spades, with extensive backing from articles and player comments and so on. I think for example about the switch to the McD system in 2011. It is just simply not an easy process, and that’s especially the case now, when the new CBA limits practice time. None of this is new discussion.
It’s a factor. You decide if it’s a major one.
Goff was a completely different animal than the O-line…he had more than just verbiage to overcome.
The Rams did install new concepts this year. When Groh came on board to revamp the passing game it also involved changing blocking concepts and that could definitely be affecting the play of the line.
However….As Zooey said, we are 12 weeks in now and this should be coming together and I would agree with that. Personally I’m leaning towards this one isn’t about the X’s and O’s but we need to think about the Joes.
December 6, 2016 at 1:24 pm #60427znModeratorHowever….As Zooey said, we are 12 weeks in now and this should be coming together and I would agree with that. Personally I’m leaning towards this one isn’t about the X’s and O’s but we need to think about the Joes.
If it were just personnel then (I think) they would not have improved as a unit down the stretch in 2015. Which, they did. Not that this would be a top OL but it was playing effectively enough at the end of last year.
Yes 12 weeks in ought to be enough time to overcome the problems of being in sync in a new system. Even a new system installed under the rules of the new CBA, with a first-time coordinator installing a system for the first time. But that was a factor this year, as was moving…and again, in the history of the NFL, only one team has played well after moving. But those problems were real–it would be a bizarro universe if they weren’t.
NOW it seems to me what they’re dealing with is obvious. Rookie qb. For example, teams are now loading up and blitzing like crazy and it takes out both the run game and puts pressure on the new qb.
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